Season 2 Episode 10 - *Have read the books/Spoilers*

chupacabra

Great episode. Was a bit confused by the ending. They make it seem like the wights are marching on the wall but it seems, on a second viewing, that they are heading for the fist as in the books. (fingers crossed for a heroic coldhands entrance next season)

Theon being dragged away by the ironmen and no sign whatsoever of Ramsay Snow is making me worry that he has been cut and the entire Theon/Reek storyline wont appear in the show at all. House of the undying was interesting, expected a lot more whimsy from it tbh and the dragons just tamely burning Pyat Pree alive wasnt good enough for one of my favorite parts of the Essos storyline.

Peter Dinklage is too important for the show to have half his nose missing and it would be a nightmare to keep up for the rest of the show so I can forgive that. But making Shae as likeable as they are is going to make for some very very interesting fan reactions in the future.

Overall its been a decent season. A lot of deviations and odd pacing has made it hard to take in at times but im starting to look at the show as just an interpretation of the story as opposed to a scene by scene adaption.
Having said that I can only wish the producers the best of luck with seasons 3 and 4 because its going to be one hell of a cluster fúck to put everything that happens in aSoS on screen and please everyone.

..oh and Joffrey's still a cúnt :pac:

Roll on season 3!

Crucifix

I wonder if the Iron throne room at the Wall is a subtle ref about Jon Snow's possible parentage?

Decent episode. They did a good job with Jaqen's face change, was worried they'd do some terrible CGI morphing

mariebeth

Really enjoyed this episode, especially Theon's rousing speech & what happens after. Don't worry, I'm sure the Bastard Ramsay Snow will turn up next season, that has already been set in motion by Lord Bolton.

Very disappointed though that Robb & Cat STILL don't know about Bran & Rickon's 'deaths'.

Was also disappointed with the Jon Snow/Qhorin Halfhand fight, from watching the show, it made it seem that Jon has really turned, and I'm wondering how they will play this storyline along. It's going to be hard for him to go back to the wall & tell them that 'Qhorin told me to do it'.

I enjoyed the House of the Undying. I actually expected it to be completely rubbish compared to the books, but the scene with Drogo & Rhaego, that literally broke my heart. And the clip of the Iron Throne and the Wall, I was thinking was that a nod to where the important fight will be?

I was impressed by the army of wights/others at the end. All I could think was 'this **** just got real!'. Maester Luwin, well that had me in tears.

There's so much to think about. I'll be watching that episode again today or tomorrow I think! Looking forward to a read of the 'have not read the books' thread to see what non-readers thought of the show

Johnny Bitte

I loved the throne room wrecked in the house of the undying and finally getting a good look at the white walkers but half hands death wasn't done well or the burning of winterfell.
Viewers would have no idea who burnt it and killed everyone.
And then there's sending both Bran and Rickon north.
And wouldnt the the White walkers kill Sam?? And and and....
Well back under my bed for 9 months until season 3 : )

TrixIrl

Fab episode - did much more with the house of the undying than i thought they would. Baby Rhaego was beautiful!

Robb & Talisa's wedding seemed very Braveheart-esque... not a bad thing at all!

I miss Jamie calling Brienne "wench" if only for when he doesnt in the future....

Poor aul Tyrion clinging to Shae...oh dear...

titan18

They really botched the sack of Winterfell and Jon/Qhorin imo. Even looking at the non-book readers thread, and no one has any idea what happened with Winterfell burning. Jon and Qhorin was botched several episodes ago, so no wonder it looked crap here.

Also, why the hell was Robb getting married under the Seven. They've introduced the different gods and how the North believes in the Old Gods. Why bother messing it up now

Was expecting the House of the Undying to be crap, so wasn't surprised at that here.

thehairyone

Thought it was an ok episode. See much the same faults as others do, not because they are different from the books but just could have been done better.

Didnt like the jon-halfhand fight. Didnt think it was long enough or tough enough for Jon. We all know that in the books, Jon was almost made to do it by the halfhand trying to kill him (to make it look convincing). The killing blow looked to have been done in anger rather than by a sense of duty for want of a better word. Didnt like the lack of ghost intervening either. In the book, without ghost, jon would have probably lost the fight and also re-enforced the fact that without the direwolves the stark children are vulnerable.

The Tyrion-shae reunion was kind of weird. The scene paints shae in a very sensitive light, considering what she goes onto do. It almost seems like she loves Tyrion. Will be interesting to see how that arc develops.

Found the last scene with the wights and others to be quite good. Also liked the Delorous Edd reference to trees when they were looked for dung to burn, thought it was quite funny. Didnt understand why the others didnt kill Sam though. The others themselves were not how i pictured them but thought they looked good.

All in all, this season was not as good as the first one but still looking forward to the next one.

WindmillWarrior

Couldn't they have solved the sacking of winterfell confusion by simply having maester luwin explain to osha what he thinks happened ie the w*nker boltons, and give that as the reason why they should go north?

On the others, what was the look at Sam all about? I thought that other looked quite different from the way they looked before in the series as well.

Besides that I thought it was very good.

titan18

WindmillWarrior wrote: »

Couldn't they have solved the sacking of winterfell confusion by simply having maester luwin explain to osha what he thinks happened ie the w*nker boltons, and give that as the reason why they should go north?

Aye, fair enough if they can't show it cos of budget, but they could easily have Luwin mention it, at least to Osha. Especially as it's the reason Bran and Rickon avoid villages and towns on their way north

dr gonzo

mariebeth wrote: »

Was also disappointed with the Jon Snow/Qhorin Halfhand fight, from watching the show, it made it seem that Jon has really turned, and I'm wondering how they will play this storyline along. It's going to be hard for him to go back to the wall & tell them that 'Qhorin told me to do it'.

Its already been said but this really really bothered me. The fact that they made John Actually kill Qorin out of anger changes his character completely, as well as changing the means by which he explains his role as a wildling to himself. Utterly terrible, hated it.

I'm not 100% sure I like how the others look either. They look a lot more zombified then they did in the previous series. I think they inspired a lot more dread before. Great scene though.

garg

Because I love the books so much I am sticking with it but to tell you the truth I find that the series is lacking a lot of the humour and intensity of the novels. Instead adding too much tits and ass to boost ratings when the draw of the novels are the cliffhangers and storyline twists. There is enough in the novels without having to add to it to try and dumb it down for TV.

The series is good enough but not a great interpretation.

This episode was fairly 'meh' after Blackwater IMO. It was really just tying up all the loose ends for next season. Nothing was really memorable, bar the Others, Jacqen and then Luwin's death (I was in bits).
Looking forward to next season, though!

Tzar Chasm

didnt like the other without the armour, it just looked freaky and didnt give off an air of invincible warrior.

I liked Quarth and how they handled the house of the undying, especially the Drogo scene, but does anyone else think they have changed Xaro a bit too much, in the books he was Pale skinned and rather homosexual.

Jaquen was brilliant I loved how they handled the face change and the coin.

the littlefinger Sansa exchange after Jofrey is bethroted to Margery goes a long way to covering the whold Dontos arc that was missing

but Brienne and Jamie, I wasnt overly keen in Jamie as a character until later books but the Character inthe series is subtlydifferent and far more likeable

Gbear

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

I liked Quarth and how they handled the house of the undying, especially the Drogo scene, but does anyone else think they have changed Xaro a bit too much, in the books he was Pale skinned and rather homosexual.

He appears later in the books aswell, doesn't he?
Is that a confirmation that he's a nothing character then?

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

the littlefinger Sansa exchange after Jofrey is bethroted to Margery goes a long way to covering the whold Dontos arc that was missing

Yeah, although they've already briefly introduced him.
I'm assuming they'll remind people with a "previously on game of thrones" showing the scene where Sansa saves his life if they're going to use him.



I thought this episode encapsulated the series - gorgeous scenery, acting, cast, most of the script was good.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's enough time, even in the ten hours, to maintain the plot fully. It's a bit ropy with Jon, Robb and Stannis' story lines.
It's a pity, because when that wasn't as much of an issue last season the other elements made it utterly magnificent. Now i'm not sure if I'll even bother with the next series.

****it. If it's got Tyrion in i'll watch it.

titan18

Ya,Xaro and Pyat Pree are mentioned in the books later when Qarth declares war on Daenarys. It's possible to work around that though imo.

Tbh, I'm only watching the show at this stage cos I love the books. Kinda want to see Blackfish and Oberyn when they come into the show, but I don't really look forward to episodes at this stage. If they get back to season 1 quality, it'll be much better

Mr Freeze

Thought it was class.

No complaints here.

Roll on season 3 and book 6.

I was very surprised with the last scene, I did not expect them to show the wights and Others in such detail, I thought the credits were going to roll after the 3rd blast and show us nothing, pleasantly surprised I was.

The house of the undying was good too, way better than expected, glad they didn't show any Red Wedding vision, because viewers would have worked that out.

Tzar Chasm

Xaro pops up in astapor later to plead with any for the reinstatement of slavery

I also loved theons speech but was annoyed that dagamar was the one who clattered him, we really should have seen ramsay snow at that stage


But the main point I seem to differ with the rest of ye on is the Other, he was supposed to be ultra slick, graceful, intense, have shimmering armour an be generally the most badass warrior creature ever to roam the face of the earth, I didnt get that vibe from the nekkid frozen monkey thing with the lump of ice in its hand

Sleepy

Winterfell's sacking is certainly causing mass confusion in the non-readers thread but really, the producers had a choice: show Ramsey's actions here or have the Red Wedding come as a massive shock to the audience. In the books we aren't sure if Roose is even aware of what his bastard is doing and there was some exposition about Ramsey being uncontrollable. Here, if you explain what's happening in Winterfell fully, the Red Wedding becomes utterly predictable, without explaining Winterfell, it'll still be a surprise and when it does happen viewers will then understand what's happened in Winterfell. I think it's the right choice tbh.

Robb getting married under the seven irked me too. Were he marrying Jayne rather than Tulisa it might be understandable (marrying under her gods) but we don't even know who her gods are since she's from beyond the narrow sea and Robb being such a mini-Ned, I just can't see him following his mother's gods more than his father's.

Dany at the tower of the undead was handled excellently imo though what's going to happen her in ASoS now that she's apparently rich is a little beyond me tbh: is she going to pay for the unsullied rather than take them with her dragons? Because that was something I quite liked about Dany: seeing her use her head and develop a clever military tactic.

Loved the look on Jaime's face when Brienne destroyed the three lads so quickly. You could see him thinking... "mmm, maybe there's a fourth that would be a challenge for me..."

The changes to Shea's character may work in Tyrion's story arc's favour tbh. In the books, she's his one blind spot: his stupid mistake. With her being so believable in her "affections" for him, it'll be easier to forgive the smartest guy in the room for letting his dick do the thinking for him...

Jaqen was handled brilliantly though I would have liked to see Arya kill during her Harrenhall escape. Thought the Joffrey / Tywin / Margaery stuff was handled excellently: that single scene brought a huge amount of the story forward. Expected Loras to join Joffrey's kingsguard here too but maybe they're waiting for Mace to be introduced so his influence in this can be shown?

Overall, a good finale to the series. Yes, it's no longer as true to the novels as it might be in a money-no-object, 24 episodes a season adaptation but for the limitations the producers have had to face, I think they're doing a great job.

podgemonster

I like how they are handling Tyrion, he is completely isolated (apart from faithful Pod) and is on course to become the bitter lion in book 3. The music in this episode was sensational, the lads leaving winterfell, the white walkers assault, Theons speech, some great scores.

Danys story finally had some substance, the snow covered throne room looked fantastic. The scene with the safe was very empowering for her though I guess we'll have to wait until next season to see Barristan .

I am really impressed with Alfie Allen, his dialogue with Luwin on how lucky he is showed his inner struggle and then followed by a great speech. They did make a balls of the Winterfell sacking, not a single shot outside to show the Bolton men. The non-readers don't know what happened.

I enjoyed Jons fight with the halfhand, it was fierce and powerful perhaps protraying Jon to be a better swordsman than in the books which could be a good thing.I have no idea what the scene with Varys and Ros was about.

Although it didn't really feel like a finale, I thought this was a solid episode. In a season which ends with Joffery victorious, Winterfell destroyed and Jon Snow turned i was hoping for it to end on a note of hope rather than further impending danger. Like Bran looking back on Winterfells say that's not gone, "it's just broken, like me".

ArmaniJeanss

Sleepy wrote: »

Dany at the tower of the undead was handled excellently imo though what's going to happen her in ASoS now that she's apparently rich is a little beyond me tbh: is she going to pay for the unsullied rather than take them with her dragons? Because that was something I quite liked about Dany: seeing her use her head and develop a clever military tactic.

Wasn't she quite rich when she went to buy the Unsullied in ASOS?
Magister Illyrio had sent her 3 ships packed with saleable goods (and Strong Belwas!), but as it turned out she still didn't have enough to buy the army.

So I guess they can do the same story but they have just arrived at her slightly inadequate wealth via a different method.

Sleepy

Would be *very* surprised if we don't see Arstan and Strong Belwas next season

Gbear

Sleepy wrote: »

Would be *very* surprised if we don't see Arstan and Strong Belwas next season

I'd be very surprised if we don't see them in the first episode.

All book spoilers:

Barristan is quite important and Belwas is going to need to take the bullet for her with the poison sweeties, he'll fight the champion outside the walls of Mereen (or one of the other cities can't remember) and we need someone to quip about onions and killing.:p

titan18

Sleepy wrote: »

Would be *very* surprised if we don't see Arstan and Strong Belwas next season

Wouldn't be sure Strong Belwas will be in it, and I'm not sure how Arstan is going to be done, they might skip the Arstan part, and just have him be Barristan

Tipsy McSwagger

I actually enjoyed that episode more than last weeks. What I take issue with though is how Dany was portrayed in this episode, Dany is not cruel and not a thief.

Bookworm85

Only got around to watching it this evening. Like may others I adore the books and I was hanging in there just for my love of the story. But to be honest I LOVED this episode the most out of the whole season. I felt that there was finally a bit of real emotion sown in this episode, whether it be Tyrion and Shae, Maester Luwin & Theon/ Bran and Rickon (I was bawling ) Jon & Qhorin (although I as pretty pissed with how they executed that scene) and I was delighted to see Danaerys finally grow a pair!

I am wondering though... I am wondering what Varys's plans are for Rhoz? It's been a while since I read the books and for the life of me cannot figure out what her role might be!

ArmaniJeanss

titan18 wrote: »

Wouldn't be sure Strong Belwas will be in it, and I'm not sure how Arstan is going to be done, they might skip the Arstan part, and just have him be Barristan

I think his 'disguise' was something that worked well in the books because even us readers didn't know who it was (at least I didn't).
And it just wouldn't work as well on TV as he would be recognisable to the viewers - even if he was brilliantly disguised he'd have to be credited and that itself would be a giveaway.
So I'd say you are right, straight to Barristan.

Tzar Chasm

He has to be incognito when he initally meets Dany as theres the whole susing here out aspect of it
The gods flip a coin when a Targaryan is born, sometimes they're great sometimes they're mad

Ambient Occlusion

podgemonster wrote: »

I like how they are handling Tyrion, he is completely isolated (apart from faithful Pod) and is on course to become the bitter lion in book 3. The music in this episode was sensational, the lads leaving winterfell, the white walkers assault, Theons speech, some great scores.

Danys story finally had some substance, the snow covered throne room looked fantastic. The scene with the safe was very empowering for her though I guess we'll have to wait until next season to see Barristan .

I am really impressed with Alfie Allen, his dialogue with Luwin on how lucky he is showed his inner struggle and then followed by a great speech. They did make a balls of the Winterfell sacking, not a single shot outside to show the Bolton men. The non-readers don't know what happened.

I enjoyed Jons fight with the halfhand, it was fierce and powerful perhaps protraying Jon to be a better swordsman than in the books which could be a good thing.I have no idea what the scene with Varys and Ros was about.

Although it didn't really feel like a finale, I thought this was a solid episode. In a season which ends with Joffery victorious, Winterfell destroyed and Jon Snow turned i was hoping for it to end on a note of hope rather than further impending danger. Like Bran looking back on Winterfells say that's not gone, "it's just broken, like me".

Bookworm85 wrote: »

Only got around to watching it this evening. Like may others I adore the books and I was hanging in there just for my love of the story. But to be honest I LOVED this episode the most out of the whole season. I felt that there was finally a bit of real emotion sown in this episode, whether it be Tyrion and Shae, Maester Luwin & Theon/ Bran and Rickon (I was bawling ) Jon & Qhorin (although I as pretty pissed with how they executed that scene) and I was delighted to see Danaerys finally grow a pair!

My sentiments exactly. I felt so sad for Tyrion and the same when Maester Luwin died. When I read Maester Luwin's death it felt like Gandalf dying to be honest. Plenty of shoddily done bits this episode but also plenty of well-done bits too. Overall I'm fairly happy.

Frisbee

As many have said the Jon/Qhorin scene was awful. However they butchered that storyline 3 episodes ago tbf so I wasn't too surprised at how shit it was.

RasTa

Where is Ghost anyway?

Gbear

RasTa wrote: »

Where is Ghost anyway?

In the land of infinite CGI budgets.:pac:

minidazzler

thehairyone wrote: »

Didnt like the jon-halfhand fight. Didnt think it was long enough or tough enough for Jon. We all know that in the books, Jon was almost made to do it by the halfhand trying to kill him (to make it look convincing). The killing blow looked to have been done in anger rather than by a sense of duty for want of a better word. Didnt like the lack of ghost intervening either. In the book, without ghost, jon would have probably lost the fight and also re-enforced the fact that without the direwolves the stark children are vulnerable.

The Tyrion-shae reunion was kind of weird. The scene paints shae in a very sensitive light, considering what she goes onto do. It almost seems like she loves Tyrion. Will be interesting to see how that arc develops.

I agree about Jon and Halfhand, it should have shown the Halfhand telling Jon to not balk at anything they ask him to do. Also, in the books Jon knows that he's not half the fighter Halfhand is so they really should have played that up and made Ghost intervene.

RE: Shae, Tyrion believes she loves him, even in the book when he is convinced she doesn't, he is still won over to think she does in moments of passion. He has a weakness for kind women, not just whores. And to portray her as deceitful would really fcuk with the future of the shows. She must appear to truly love him, and he must believe she does. If only to see the wonderful acting that will come from Peter Dinklage in the next series.

Mr Freeze

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

I actually enjoyed that episode more than last weeks. What I take issue with though is how Dany was portrayed in this episode, Dany is not cruel and not a thief.

She stole The Unsullied in my opinion! She would prefer the term "Freed" of course.

Sleepy

minidazzler wrote: »

I agree about Jon and Halfhand, it should have shown the Halfhand telling Jon to not balk at anything they ask him to do. Also, in the books Jon knows that he's not half the fighter Halfhand is so they really should have played that up and made Ghost intervene.

Agree with all of this.

Has any other character been done such a disservice by the tv-show? Jon is up there with Tyrion and Arya as a favourite of book readers but is barely featuring in the "favourite character" poll currently running on this forum.

Tzar Chasm

In fairness I think a lot of book readers like the action north of the wall as opposed to just liking jon, I thought the series really captured the essence of jon from the first two books, little boy lost, the scene when he,s on top of the wall whining that everyone knew it was sh1t and never told him is quite a big element of the character

Ask yerself of the pov characters north of the wall who do you prefer
Jon or Sam?

ArmaniJeanss

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

What I take issue with though is how Dany was portrayed in this episode, Dany is not cruel and not a thief.

From Book1 alone.

She may or may not have been able to stop Viserys's gruesome execution, but by saying nothing she gave passive approval for it.

The winetrading assassin was given a nasty slow violent death, which she didn't object to. It was her horse he was tied behind.


Theres a definite cruelty in her.

Sleepy

Well the Targaryen words are "blood and fire"...

Ambient Occlusion

Speaking of Targaryens, I was just thinking, they'll probably cut Quentyn when it comes to it, won't they? He's not really that important.

I dunno about anyone else, but frankly I was disappointed to get a good look at the Others. When we didn't have a face they seemed that much more mysterious and frightening. I find that the stuff your own imagination comes up with is more frightening than the stuff that they show you outright. They looked cool, but all the same they could have looked much better also.

beardedmaster

Sleepy wrote: »

Well the Targaryen words are "blood and fire"...

It's actually "Fire and Blood"..

Mr Freeze

Ambient Occlusion wrote: »

Speaking of Targaryens, I was just thinking, they'll probably cut Quentyn when it comes to it, won't they? He's not really that important.

I dunno......I think he is fairly important. Plus he could be fulfilling part of a prophecy too.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

For all we know, that prophecy could be real, but not literal, Quentyn Martell could be the Sun (or son) rising in the West and setting in the East.

Of course, that could be a load of crap, and they can definitely cut Quentyn Martell, who knows yet.

beardedmaster wrote: »

It's actually "Fire and Blood"..

Oh not like Sleepy to make a mistake like that.:pac:

titan18

Ambient Occlusion wrote: »

Speaking of Targaryens, I was just thinking, they'll probably cut Quentyn when it comes to it, won't they? He's not really that important.

I dunno about anyone else, but frankly I was disappointed to get a good look at the Others. When we didn't have a face they seemed that much more mysterious and frightening. I find that the stuff your own imagination comes up with is more frightening than the stuff that they show you outright. They looked cool, but all the same they could have looked much better also.

Can't see them cutting Quentyn. It'll be quite easy to cut a good bit out of book 4 and 5 without affecting things rather than cutting characters who a re a bit important. Depends on what happens in The Winds of Winter too as there's a theory that Quentyn isn't dead

Mr Freeze

titan18 wrote: »

....Depends on what happens in The Winds of Winter too as there's a theory that Quentyn isn't dead

I don't know this theory! got a link to it (in case people here don't want to know)?

titan18

Mr Freeze wrote: »

I don't know this theory! got a link to it (in case people here don't want to know)?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61463-the-dragon-rider-adwd-spoilers/

That's pretty much it. Westeros is having issues atm so might take a bunch of refreshing to get it to appear.

I don't think it's true, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was

Mr Freeze

titan18 wrote: »

I don't think it's true, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was

I think I might buy into that, stranger things have happened in the books.

Gbear

titan18 wrote: »

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61463-the-dragon-rider-adwd-spoilers/

That's pretty much it. Westeros is having issues atm so might take a bunch of refreshing to get it to appear.

I don't think it's true, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was

That's very interesting.

I was pretty pissed when he was killed off. I was thinking along the lines of the first point made - why bother with him in the first place?

johnnyskeleton

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

What I take issue with though is how Dany was portrayed in this episode, Dany is not cruel and not a thief.

From Book1 alone.

She may or may not have been able to stop Viserys's gruesome execution, but by saying nothing she gave passive approval for it.

The winetrading assassin was given a nasty slow violent death, which she didn't object to. It was her horse he was tied behind.


Theres a definite cruelty in her.

Or burning the witch alive, burning the house of the undying to the ground, generally burning things and people.

Einhard

A lot of people are of the opinion that Shae doesn;t actually care for Tyrion. I know things doesn't exactly turn out well between the two of them, but I think that she does have genuine feelings for her, but a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do to survive...especially in King's Landing. I sped through the books so maybe I'm missing something important about her character, but otherwise I think it's unfair to dismiss her feelings completely.

Johnny Bitte

Einhard wrote: »

A lot of people are of the opinion that Shae doesn;t actually care for Tyrion. I know things doesn't exactly turn out well between the two of them, but I think that she does have genuine feelings for her, but a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do to survive...especially in King's Landing. I sped through the books so maybe I'm missing something important about her character, but otherwise I think it's unfair to dismiss her feelings completely.

I agree what happens after is pretty low of her but its prob all she could do not to end up with her head on a spike. Means **** all to Tyrion though when he finds out!!

Where do whores go!

lordgoat

Anyone else think this season was terrible?

A great story dumbed down to make it fit in 13 episodes imo. It's really lost something. No character development. Any character that's important in the books but is going to die, generally gets left out or made a bit part.

The only good thing about season 2 means i won't be annoyed about waiting so long for season 3.

Also anyone that hasn't read the books and thinks it's a good series, you really are missing out in a huge way.

Einhard

lordgoat wrote: »

Anyone else think this season was terrible?

A great story dumbed down to make it fit in 13 episodes imo. It's really lost something. No character development. Any character that's important in the books but is going to die, generally gets left out or made a bit part.

The only good thing about season 2 means i won't be annoyed about waiting so long for season 3.

Also anyone that hasn't read the books and thinks it's a good series, you really are missing out in a huge way.

I thought it was very good. I didn't expect it to be a carbon copy of the books, so when it wasn't, I wasn't disappointed.

Ask yourself this: if you had not read the books, and were new to ASOIAF, would you have thought the series good? I think most people would, and that's the standard I tend to go by.

Also: I don't think it was dumbed down at all. There were scenes and characters cut, but that's a far cry from dumbing something down.

Also also: I wish it were 13 episodes!!