What exactly is trespassing?

Departed

What exactly is trespassing?

1 if one lives in an estate with a fence/gate closed and an adult comes in to retrieve a ball for a child is that trespass?

2 Is it trespass if the child comes in and damages plant while retrieving a ball?

What if anything can be done about 1 and 2 above?


Thanks

ResearchWill

Departed wrote: »

What exactly is trespassing?

1 if one lives in an estate with a fence/gate closed and an adult comes in to retrieve a ball for a child is that trespass?

2 Is it trespass if the child comes in and damages plant while retrieving a ball?

What if anything can be done about 1 and 2 above?


Thanks

Is this serious or a windup.

little swift

boath 1-2 are trespass, you have no permission to be there on someone else's property.

Departed

ResearchWill wrote: »

Is this serious or a windup.

why would i waste my time with wind up?

Departed

little swift wrote: »

boath 1-2 are trespass, you have no permission to be there on someone else's property.

Thanks. it is not me on someone else property.

How would it be dealt with, a no trespass sign would stop all callers wouldn't it.? and in 2 if the children cause damage do the parents have to pay for it?

amen

ianal but

boath 1-2 are trespass, you have no permission to be there on someone else's property

so what happens if the road/green space is maintained by the county council and is a public road?

Has the idea of private gated estates ever (such as those in the USA) ever been tested in court in Ireland?

What about someone delivering leaflets in these estates is this trespass?

If I am a resident and I order pizza, is the person delivering trespassing or do I as a resident of the estate have authority to invite everyone else in or does it need to go to a management meeting?

Procrastastudy

There is very little you can do. If it continually happens then you may be able to claim in nuisance but it would have to be out of character for the area. Balls in gardens wouldn't really apply. It's a slightly different story where there is property damage - I think its going to depend on whether this is a prize winning apple tree or a stinging nettle.


Don't be tempted to take matters into your own hands either. While your duty to a trespasser, under the Occupiers Liability Act, is one to not act with 'reckless disregard' there are some commentators that say if the injury is to a child a much higher standard will apply.

I think this would probably be covered under Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994. Although this has problem been amended.

Section 13 may cover it,hard to prove someone didn't cause fear to another person...

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0013.html

13.—(1) It shall be an offence for a person, without reasonable excuse, to trespass on any building or the curtilage thereof in such a manner as causes or is likely to cause fear in another person.


(2) (a) Where a member of the Garda Síochána finds a person in a place to which subsection (1) relates and suspects, with reasonable cause, that such person is or has been acting in a manner contrary to the provisions of that subsection, then the member may direct the person so suspected to do either or both of the following, that is to say:


(i) desist from acting in such a manner, and


(ii) leave immediately the vicinity of the place concerned in a peaceable or orderly manner.


(b) It shall be an offence for any person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, to fail to comply with a direction given by a member of the Garda Síochána under this section.


(3) (a) A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (1) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to both.


(b) A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (2) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.

ResearchWill

Deleted User wrote: »

I think this would probably be covered under Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994. Although this has problem been amended.

Section 13 may cover it,hard to prove someone didn't cause fear to another person...

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0013.html

Is getting your ball back a reasonable excuse, I really can not see how a adult or child neighbour getting their ball back would instill fear. Finally if there is no fear it only becomes an offence if AGS tells the person to stop and they continue todo it. Can any member of AGS say how they would deal with such a matter.

The reason I asked was this a wind up, is the living in estates involves people going into each others curtailage for all manner of reasons. The only way to deal with trespass is by way of court action to seek an injunction and if necessary damages, a little bit of a case of using a jcb to open a nut.

ResearchWill

ResearchWill wrote: »

Is getting your ball back a reasonable excuse, I really can not see how a adult or child neighbour getting their ball back would instill fear. Finally it only becomes an offence if AGS tells the person to stop and they continue todo it. Can any member of AGS say how they would deal with such a matter.

The reason I asked was this a wind up, is the living in estates involves people going into each others curtailage for all manner of reasons. The only way to deal with trespass is by way of court action to seek an injunction and if necessary damages, a little bit of a case of using a jcb to open a nut.

I was just answering what I thought might be the answer to "What exactly is trespassing?"

Departed

ResearchWill wrote: »

Is getting your ball back a reasonable excuse, I really can not see how a adult or child neighbour getting their ball back would instill fear. .

that is true. my question though is have they a roght to be there if the owner does not want them. I see your point that there are always people going in and out hence my saying a no trespass sign would infer no one should enter

Still I do not see why one should have kids or adults coming in to get a ball if one does not want that and certainly if there is a history of kids doing damage to plants

ResearchWill

Departed wrote: »

that is true. my question though is have they a roght to be there if the owner does not want them. I see your point that there are always people going in and out hence my saying a no trespass sign would infer no one should enter

Still I do not see why one should have kids or adults coming in to get a ball if one does not want that and certainly if there is a history of kids doing damage to plants

Has your friend asked the parents not to come onto the property.

Departed

ResearchWill wrote: »

Has your friend asked the parents not to come onto the property.

he has told the kids not to and they don't. but now they have asked adults to. In fairness at least the adults close the gate and can get the ball without causing any damage.

However he is a private person and does not like people doing that. I do not understand why someone cannot live in peace if they want to. He would give back the ball in his own time when he returns. It is from cctv he knows an adult has been in. As said he does not want to put a no trespassing sign as that would sem to exclude all and does not want any argument with the neighbour

Is there any responsibility on the parents to have the kids play where they do not cause any such problems?

There is something in law called the egg shell skull principle or something like that. My understanding of that is that if someone has a pre existing condition and you hit them with a car in a crash you are responsible for their injury being worse even though you did not know of the condition*

If someone had a pre existing condition where people entering his garden caused more stress than normal, where it did actually cause him fear, would they have a bigger responsibility even though they did not know of it?

* stand to be corrected

little swift

if its a gated estate- property, then that makes it private. unless you have a genuine reson to be there then you are trespassing.

Departed

little swift wrote: »

if its a gated estate- property, then that makes it private. unless you have a genuine reson to be there then you are trespassing.

the estate itself is not gated. my friend has a fence gate around his house.The kids/adults live in the estate too

little swift

Departed wrote: »

the estate itself is not gated. my friend has a fence gate around his house.The kids/adults live there too

do they knock in and ask for the ball back, or just take it upon themselfs to get it back .
if they dont have permission to be there then thats trespass.

Departed

little swift wrote: »

do they knock in and ask for the ball back, or just take it upon themselfs to get it back .
if they dont have permission to be there then thats trespass.

No they do not knock at the door, just come in and get it, . But, and I am not being smart here, how would they get to knock at the door without coming in the gate. If being there without permision is trespass is it not trspass to come to the door as they would have to do that to ask permission?

ResearchWill

He reason I asked was this a piss take was that while the action described may be trespass, the remedy is legal action if the OP's friend won't engage with people to request they stop how is he going to deal with a court case. BTW my own opinion on a court case most judges would think the OP's friend was mad.

OP if your friend does not like living in an estate then sell and move out to the country.

Departed

ResearchWill wrote: »

He reason I asked was this a piss take was that while the action described may be trespass, the remedy is legal action if the OP's friend won't engage with people to request they stop how is he going to deal with a court case. BTW my own opinion on a court case most judges would think the OP's friend was mad.

OP if your friend does not like living in an estate then sell and move out to the country.

i did not say he did not like living there. And there is no need of insults like mad. You do not know all the fact. They must be a lot of mad people there thenas they all complain of kids doing damage running into their gardens etc

little swift

Departed wrote: »

No they do not knock at the door, just come in and get it, . But, and I am not being smart here, how would they get to knock at the door without coming in the gate. If being there without permision is trespass is it not trspass to come to the door as they would have to do that to ask permission?

i think would depend on weather the gate was locked or opened for them to gain access.
how dose the post man get to the door.?

ResearchWill

Departed wrote: »

ResearchWill wrote: »

He reason I asked was this a piss take was that while the action described may be trespass, the remedy is legal action if the OP's friend won't engage with people to request they stop how is he going to deal with a court case. BTW my own opinion on a court case most judges would think the OP's friend was mad.

i did not say he did not like living there. And there is no need of insults like mad. You do not know all the fact. They must be a lot of mad people there thenas they all complain of kids doing damage running into their gardens etc

If you had read my post I said I believed if your friend took legal proceedings most judges would think him mad, it was in relation to taking legal proceedings.

In relation to knowing the facts I only know what you said so here are the facts as you stated.

Children kick ball into garden, said children enter garden and damage plants and exit and leave gate open. Your friend tells children to stop. Your friend through his CCTV can tell that when ball enters again while he is away, the children ask an adult to get ball, said adult enters gets ball, does no damage and closes gate. What have I missed.

Departed

ResearchWill wrote: »

Departed wrote: »

If you had read my post I said I believed if your friend took legal proceedings most judges would think him mad, it was in relation to taking legal proceedings.

In relation to knowing the facts I only know what you said so here are the facts as you stated.

Children kick ball into garden, said children enter garden and damage plants and exit and leave gate open. Your friend tells children to stop. Your friend through his CCTV can tell that when ball enters again while he is away, the children ask an adult to get ball, said adult enters gets ball, does no damage and closes gate. What have I missed.

The part that if my friend had a pre existing condition that made this more stressful than for most people would it make a diiference. Don't think there is any need to speculate on a judge calling someone mad because they took legal action

Departed

little swift wrote: »

i think would depend on weather the gate was locked or opened for them to gain access.
how dose the post man get to the door.?

The post man opens the gate. it is closed but not locked

ResearchWill

Departed wrote: »

ResearchWill wrote: »

The part that if my friend had a pre existing condition that made this more stressful than for most people would it make a diiference. Don't think there is any need to speculate on a judge calling someone mad because they took legal action

The point is in such a situation as a child getting their ball out of a front garden or asking an adult to do same, is trespass, as I said the only way to stop same if a nice chat does not work is to take legal action, to get and injunction against a child for getting his ball is a bit ott.

From what you have said it seems the kids listened and asked an adult for help when your friend was out. That shows me these kids are good kids and don't want to upset the guy.

little swift

outside intercom and lock the gate would be an option.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

I'm going to ignore the property damage aspect of this for a minute.

If a child's ball is kicked into a garden it would take severe possible consequences, that he knows about, for him to refrain from simply walking into the garden and getting it. What I mean here is that this is very unlikely to actually happen. He might be asking the parents to get it now but soon he'll get sick of waiting or they'll get sick of the hassle and he'll think no one is looking and run into the garden.

Instead of your friend grumbling about it and taking an action for trespass (which might well fail) the practical solution would be to put up a fence around his garden. If he is a 'private person' as you have put it then I can't see why he'd have a problem with that. The fencing will also cost him a lot less than bringing a case for trespass to court which then fails (unless you can bring trespass actions to small claims - I don't think you can though). You can get a small to medium sized garden fenced with wood in a matter of a few hours and it's easy work so no major inconvenience there either. If this person is elderly perhaps the kid's parents will be kind enough to give a hand, to help solve the problem.

But I am sure 'he' will come up with some reason why this is not going to be done and, as is always the case, continue moaning about the kids playing ball...

Milk & Honey

The best thing to do is just take the ball into the house. Give it back after a week. The kids will soon learn.

Procrastastudy

IIRC the egg-shell thin skull rule only applies to physical injury. I think there has been the odd pure economic loss case - something involving a dredger springs to mind.

Departed

Hannah Late Smile wrote: »

I'm going to ignore the property damage aspect of this for a minute.

If a child's ball is kicked into a garden it would take severe possible consequences, that he knows about, for him to refrain from simply walking into the garden and getting it. What I mean here is that this is very unlikely to actually happen. He might be asking the parents to get it now but soon he'll get sick of waiting or they'll get sick of the hassle and he'll think no one is looking and run into the garden.

Instead of your friend grumbling about it and taking an action for trespass (which might well fail) the practical solution would be to put up a fence around his garden. If he is a 'private person' as you have put it then I can't see why he'd have a problem with that. The fencing will also cost him a lot less than bringing a case for trespass to court which then fails (unless you can bring trespass actions to small claims - I don't think you can though). You can get a small to medium sized garden fenced with wood in a matter of a few hours and it's easy work so no major inconvenience there either. If this person is elderly perhaps the kid's parents will be kind enough to give a hand, to help solve the problem.

But I am sure 'he' will come up with some reason why this is not going to be done and, as is always the case, continue moaning about the kids playing ball...

had you read it you would know there is a fence around it

'he'

why the ' '

as is always the case, continue moaning about the kids playing ball.

how do you know what is always the case.? can you not deal with then facts as given instead of speculation?