Galway Airport - mega merge

yew_tree

mackjark wrote: »

I am over it. My goodness aren't Mayo people very sensitive and thin skinned. Bit of an inferiority complex when it comes to Galway eh? Well get over it and I'm a Dub anyway.

Not at all and I never mentioned or even looked as to where you are from. It is you that brought up inferiority complex. Being from Mayo means you develop thick skin especially when conversation turns to sport. My Mother is from Galway so I have no problem with Galway or the people.

mackjark

Aerohead wrote: »

I saw those planes there and took a picture but I cant find it if I do I will post it, the shutting of the Airport for a City the size of Galway is just silly when you look at the likes of Abbeyshrule in the middle of the Country with only a Village beside it operating as a GA Airport.

That's hitting the nail on the head. Abbeyshrule and active busy little airfield with a hard runway, with maintenance, parachuting, flying school even the occasional airshow and the village of Abbeyshrule is barely more than a hamlet in the middle of nowhere. There's no reason Galway can't do the same with no cost to the taxpayer.

bonzodog2 wrote: »

Whatever about the local demand etc, can somebody enlighten me as to why it was considered impossible to lengthen/widen the runway? Seems to me there's plenty of space both ends; roads could have been put into tunnels or even something like a level crossing, given the relative infrequency of flights.

Just my 0.02 euro, I'm not an aviation expert or anything.

The main reason as already pointed out was that Aer Arann, (run by a Galway man!) didn't need the competition that a lengthened runway would bring. Also there is a building and a road at one end which would be expensive to remove and a huge dip at the other end which would need levelling and indeed a tunnel for the road just like the one built for the motorway. Even now the runway dips alarmingly and you can't see the other end while sitting at the western threshold. You just have to hope there isn't another plane or a herd of wildebeest on the runway as you crest the hill. It is in the wrong place for a full airport runway. It'll never happen now anyway so it's all idle speculation.

AlbionCat

"a herd of wildebeest on the runway" :eek:

I always thought some of the aer arran take off / landings were a bit interesting. Now I know why!

mackjark

Well these days it's more likely to be Emus!!;)

notharrypotter

Abbeyshrule and active busy little airfield with a hard runway, with maintenance, parachuting, flying school even the occasional airshow and the village of Abbeyshrule is barely more than a hamlet in the middle of nowhere. There's no reason Galway can't do the same with no cost to the taxpayer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbeyshrule_Aerodrome

The bituminous runway is 620 by 18 m (2,030 by 59 ft).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galway_airport

Galway runway At 1289 m (4230 ft) is too long for ordinary general aviation operations.

Maintenance will become an issue eventually. and this will be at the taxpayers expense.

Hurler on the Ditch

Its interesting that State Funds were used to Bailout a Chambre of Commerce?

Iwannahurl

Not any more. We're used to it. :rolleyes:

galwayrush

How much has Knock Airport being funded by the taxpayer?

I'm guessing by a lot more than Galway ever got.

galwayrush

galwayrush wrote: »

How much has Knock Airport being funded by the taxpayer?

I'm guessing by a lot more than Galway ever got.

Per passenger, Likely a lot less than Galway. If your concerned about where your tax money is going its not Knock i would be moaning about. The paltry amount given to Knock has been recovered in taxes directly related to the airport several times over.

http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_archive_details.aspx?id=309

So 28 million in funding spread over 30 years in return for

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/ireland-west-airport-knock-future-827907-Mar2013/

150 people directly employed at the airport......... supports an additional 900 jobs in the region and provides an annual tourism and related spend of €117 million in the west of Ireland.

I'd say the taxpayer is more than happy with its investment. :rolleyes: People using Knock pay the vast majority of the cost at Knock, not the taxpayer.

kippy

galwayrush wrote: »

How much has Knock Airport being funded by the taxpayer?

I'm guessing by a lot more than Galway ever got.

Possibly but knock is:
1. Suitable for far bigger aircraft
and as a result:
2. Is expanding in the numbers of flights and passengers through it year on year.


Id also add, that knock managed to at least get the passenger to pay that 10 euro departure tax, taking some of the sting away from the taxpayer.
So it's a better area to put money into rather than an airport with limited capacity.

nuac

Re Knock

I recall that there was local fundraising for the Airport via church gate collections at the start of the airport project. I can't recall how much was raised but it did show local support when some of the powers that be were dissing it - Jim Mitchell still remembered for his foggy boggy speech.

serfboard

It makes me laugh in this country the way everyone thinks they should have a train station, international airport and 24hr A&E in their back yard. (OK, slight exaggeration).

If there was any proper planning in this country (which there isn't) we would have airports in Dublin, Belfast, Derry, Cork and one in Galway near the M17/M18 junction.

As it is, one hour north of Galway, one hour south of Galway and two hours east of Galway we have airports capable of landing jumbo jets. We don't need another bloody airport and it was only a matter of time before Galway closed.

What most amazes me about this whole debacle is how the City and County Managers were allowed to spend over half a million euro each without consulting councillors.

what_traffic

serfboard wrote: »

What most amazes me about this whole debacle is how the City and County Managers were allowed to spend over half a million euro each without consulting councillors.

Really? Cllr's have very little power in so called Local Government for years now. The City/County Managers(i.e Public Servants) haved ruled the roost for decades now.
I think this debacle has been useful in illustrating clearly to the public who really controls City/County Hall.

Storm 10

On Galway Bay FM this morning the City Manager said no deal on the Airport has been signed yet and if the Councillors dont want the City Council to buy the Airport then they wont go ahead with the purchase.

serfboard

serfboard wrote: »

If there was any proper planning in this country (which there isn't) we would have airports in Dublin, Belfast, Derry, Cork and one in Galway near the M17/M18 junction.
.

I agree, whats worse even 20 years ago this would of been possible before we put hundreds of millions into Shannon.
Having Shannon in the wrong place meant a Galway airport would never be viable.

what_traffic

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree, whats worse even 20 years ago this would of been possible before we put hundreds of millions into Shannon.
Having Shannon in the wrong place meant a Galway airport would never be viable.

What are you trying to say?
What hundreds of millions?
Shannon in the wrong place?
If Shannon is in the wrong place what does that say about Knock?

mackjark

notharrypotter wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbeyshrule_Aerodrome

The bituminous runway is 620 by 18 m (2,030 by 59 ft).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galway_airport

Galway runway At 1289 m (4230 ft) is too long for ordinary general aviation operations.

Maintenance will become an issue eventually. and this will be at the taxpayers expense.

No such thing as a runway that's too long. In any case the general limit for an aerodrome operating under a private licence is 800 metres. In practical terms that just means 800 metres will be marked off as the official runway, the rest will officially be for 'emergency' only. That does put a legal restriction on the size of aircraft that can use the place but doesn't stop anyone using the extra bit. As for maintenance, well in England they're still using runways built during the war. I think it'll be OK.

mackjark

what_traffic wrote: »

What are you trying to say?
What hundreds of millions?
Shannon in the wrong place?
If Shannon is in the wrong place what does that say about Knock?

Knock is in the wrong place but it's there.....for now.

When decision were made about building an airport in the west. Galway was considered alongside Shannon. Shannon won. No less a person than Charles Lindbergh was involved in the decision. I think it was the suitability of the flying boat base at nearby Foynes that swung it. You have to remember that back then Flying boats were considered the future and no one considered that building giant runways on land made any sense. Shannon airport was merely a feeder airport for the flying boats at Foynes. The war changed that and flying boats sank without trace. Which is why Shannon seems oddly situated right now. If Galway had been more suitable as a flying boat base. History might have been quite different. But Foynes was and is a deep water seaport and was the better choice.

what_traffic

what_traffic wrote: »

What are you trying to say?
What hundreds of millions?
Shannon in the wrong place?
If Shannon is in the wrong place what does that say about Knock?

If Shannon airport was in Galway, Knock would never have been built. Shannon is too far south for the vast majority of the west and North West, which is now Knocks current market.

Shannon is in the lower quarter of the country(from Letterkenny to cork city). Knock is more central in the west, North of Galway city would have also served the same purpose.

It was just very bad long term planning from the get go....and could have been rectified but was allowed to continue.

I think the original gombeen politician Eamon De Valera also had a part to play in this mistake ensuring that Shannon was in his constituency, instead of Galway.

Regarding the hundreds of millions of taxpayers money.
http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/ireland-west-airport-knock-future-827907-Mar2013/

Ireland West Airport has estimated the total cost of this package for Shannon Airport is some €300 million including €100 million of debt financing and is concerned that this will be at the expense of the facility in Knock.

what_traffic

Deleted User wrote: »

Regarding the hundreds of millions of taxpayers money.
http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/ireland-west-airport-knock-future-827907-Mar2013/

Have you a source other than Knock Airport itself?

what_traffic

what_traffic wrote: »

Have you a source other than Knock Airport itself?

http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=23983
http://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2013-01-22a.403
http://donegalnow.com/sp/article_manager/detail/govt_pledges_to_back_future_development_of_knock_airport
http://galwayindependent.com/20130327/news/council-back-knock-funding-bid-S912.html

Get an assistant if you want any more help...:p

Noting that “connectivity is everything”, Cllr Peter Feeney said, “Knock is vital to Galway in the same way Galway is vital to Knock.”

Both Cllr Canney and Cllr Mary Hoade proposed motions that Galway County Council support Ireland West Airport Knock in its position as a strategic airport in the West of Ireland and calling on the Government to provide the full amount of funding being sought for the airport’s development. The Council passed both motions unanimously.

notharrypotter

In any case the general limit for an aerodrome operating under a private licence is 800 metres

So a better phrase is the runway in Galway is over long for general aviation general use.

It was just very bad long term planning from the get go....and could have been rectified but was allowed to continue.

I think I will have to disagree here.

Context is key in alot of things

From the Dublin airport wikipedia page

A decision was made that a civil airport should replace Baldonnel as the city's airport. The townlands of Collinstown, Rock and Corballis in the Barony of Coolock were selected as the location for the new civil aerodrome. Collinstown's first association with aviation was as a British military air base during World War I, but that field had been unused since 1922. Construction of the new airport began in 1937. By the end of 1939 a grass airfield surface,

From Shannon airport wikipedia page

In 1936, the Government of Ireland confirmed that it would develop a 3.1 km2 (1.2 sq mi) site at Rineanna for the country's first transatlantic airport. The land on which the airport was to be built was boggy, and on 8 October 1936 work began to drain the land. By 1942 a serviceable airport had been established and was named Shannon Airport. By 1945 the existing runways at Shannon were extended to allow transatlantic flights to land.

From the Cork airport wikipedia page

In 1957 the Government of Ireland agreed in principle to the building of an airport for Cork. After considering many sites in the area, it was agreed that the airport should be built at Ballygarvan. Tenders were invited for the construction of the airport in 1959 at an estimated cost of £1 million. The airport was officially opened on 16 October 1961,

From the Galway airport wikipedia page.

During World War I a landing ground was built for the RAF at nearby Oranmore. It was later used by Aer Arann, a local flying club and private operators. However it remained a grass strip and was virtually unusable in Winter. Ernest Steiner, a German businessman built his own strip opposite his factory at Carnmore. Aer Arann moved in also and commenced operations from there in 1974.

And

The runway was extended to 1200 metres and completed on 2 March 1987.

No equivelent data on wikipedia so here is Sligo airports web site history page

1974: Sligo Airport Company registered as a private limited company. It was set up to develop land which was rented in Strandhill, Co Sligo, as a grass airstrip for private flying purposes and pilot training by Sligo Aero Club

And

1981: The Sligo County Development Team, took the initiative, in co-operation with Sligo County Council and Sligo Borough Council, to establish a proper Regional Airport for Sligo and the North West Region.

From Knock airport wikipedia page.

History

The airport opened on 25 October 1985 with three Aer Lingus charter flights to Rome: the official opening was on 30 May 1986.[

From Kerry airport wikipedia page

History

The first aircraft to land at Kerry was flown by Captain Milo Carr of the Department of Transport and Power (now the Department of Transport) on 25 August 1969. For ten years the airport was only used by light private aircraft and the occasional chartered cargo flight. The first scheduled service began in July 1979.[3]

And Finally from Aer Lingus wikipedia page.

In 1984, a fully owned subsidiary, Aer Lingus Commuter, was formed so that Aer Lingus could fly to larger cities in Ireland and Britain whose flying time from Dublin did not require jet planes. These services were operated primarily by five of the Belfast-built Short 360 after conducting a trial with the Short 330.

Just a couple of observations.

1. The regional airports were improved in most cases from flying club strips to provide access to Dublin for conectivity.
2. Knock it seems was deliberatly constructed even though work seems to have already commenced in Sligo.
3. They were designed at a time when Aer Lingus was to provide the access to Dublin usung small turbo prop aircraft.
4. Rather than improve the road network and make better utilisation of what they had the decision was to proveide "sexy" air acess to keep the locals happy
5. The improved motorway network has removed the original reason for the regional airports.

So in 1936 the Government developed a strategy on air travel and decided to build airports in Dublin and Shannon to serve different agendas.

So maybe the "bad planning" was to actually permit any more airports after Dublin and Shannon?

notharrypotter

notharrypotter wrote: »

From Shannon airport wikipedia page
From the Cork airport wikipedia page

Would it not of made more sense in the 1950's instead of building a new airport in Cork and continuing to support Shannon, to build an airport between Cork and Limerick. They are only 60 miles apart.

Kerry would also never have been built if that happened. An Airport in Galway would also then have been feasible.

Storm 10

My Father worked on the laying of a test runway on the Headford Road before Shannon was chosen, they put down a section of a concrete, sadly over a few weeks it sank as they did not have the knowledge that exists today how to deal with the sinking concrete, dont ask me what year that was as I forget.

That location would have been great if it worked as there is flat land for miles around.

notharrypotter

Would it not of made more sense in the 1950's instead of building a new airport in Cork and continuing to support Shannon, to build an airport between Cork and Limerick. They are only 60 miles apart.

The same logic can be applied using the following "In the 1950's why did they not build a motor way from Letterkenny via Sligo and Galway to Shannon. While at the same time building 2 more motorways from Cork and Waterford to Shannon as well".

Those of us of a certain vintage can well remember when there was only 1 section of motorway in the entire republic.


In 1957 politically and infrastructurally it did not. "Shure why would you build a motorway there, who's going to use it".
In the 1950's Aer Lingus had 75 seat turbo props to serve the UK from Cork.
The BAC 111 did not arrive till 1965 and the B737-200 until 1969.

Cork airport when it was conceived was intended to serve a limited number of nearby airports in Ireland and UK. European route structure was still a pipe dream.

From 2013 with 20/20 vision it would have made perfect sense to improve the road from cork to limerick and on to shannon.

It is part of the same logic that gave us the regional airport structure we now have.

No politicuan ever looks beyond the next election and anyone proposing an infrastructural project will always over emphasise the benefits and under emphasis the negatives and real cost.

The problem is that Ireland has a "clientism" political structure an joined up thinking is an anethema for our politicians.

what_traffic

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=23983
http://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2013-01-22a.403
http://donegalnow.com/sp/article_manager/detail/govt_pledges_to_back_future_development_of_knock_airport
http://galwayindependent.com/20130327/news/council-back-knock-funding-bid-S912.html

Get an assistant if you want any more help...:p

Looks like I will have too. They are pretty much all from the same PR sent out via Knock Airport.

serfboard

Deleted User wrote: »

Would it not of made more sense in the 1950's ... to build an airport between Cork and Limerick. They are only 60 miles apart.

Kerry would also never have been built if that happened. An Airport in Galway would also then have been feasible.

I'm not sure about the 1950's but certainly Cork airport was built in the wrong place.

If it was built north of Cork it would have removed the need for Kerry, Waterford and Shannon airports. (And use the money instead towards the M20, N22 and a full ring N40).

notharrypotter

If it was built north of Cork it would have removed the need for Kerry, Waterford and Shannon airports.

Why build it north of Cork as Shannon was in existence for 20 years at that stage?

It was intended to serve a purely local market of Cork with services to Dublin and England.

Context is key Cork was conceived in the mid 1950's RYANAIR or anything similar could not exist at the time.

Aer Lingus and British Airways would have been the only mainline carriers interested.

I think that "DANAIR" existed and served Ireland later on.

In the 1950's the areas covered by the roads would most likely have been rural farmland not urban as today.

(And use the money instead towards the M20, N22 and a full ring N40).

serfboard

notharrypotter wrote: »

Why build it north of Cork as Shannon was in existence for 20 years at that stage?

I agree. Of course, I'm indulging in a bit of ...

notharrypotter wrote: »

2013 with 20/20 vision

We are where we are. :rolleyes:

Personally, I don't think Galway will be the only abandoned airport in the next ten years ... Waterford and Kerry to follow, for starters ...

mhaise

xflyer wrote: »

No way that's rubbish. Someone is playing games here. It can easily continue as an airfield. There is no industry moving in there. It's not as if Galway is short of industrial estates.

This is some sort of ploy.

More smoke and mirrors, government just don't support it which is a shame,

May be more to this than meets the eye, someone will make money out of this decision in due course and then we will know the true agenda behind closure.

I've used this airport many times and found it to very good