Owner unable to care for dog - what to do?

mosi

Earlier today I found a dog out on the road. He was running back and forth, and almost got hit by a car, so I took him in.
The OH and I brought him around to the park beside us to see if anyone recognised him, and eventually found out where he lives. His owner is an elderly man. We went up to the house and the door was open but nobody home. We then spoke to the neighbour who called the Gardai, as he was concerned about the man's whereabouts.
From talking to the neighbour, and other locals, we have learned that the man is in his late seventies and has dementia. The dog is constantly allowed to wander. The man's last dog also wandered all the time and was put down after biting a child. The house itself was in a right state and the hallway was full of dog food tins that have been chewed. The Gardai were pretty horrified by the condition of the place.
We have taken the dog back home with us for the night, and have left our details with the neighbour for when the owner returns. We are very concerned though about handing back the dog as he clearly is unable to look after it. The other locals that we spoke to agreed that we should try and find him a good home. The thing is though, how to broach this with the owner when he shows up. He may not be willing to hand over the dog. Would the DSPCA or another organisation be able to help in this regard?

Zapperzy

I would be hesitant about broaching the situation at all with him yourself, do the neighbours know has he any family at all that you could discuss your concerns with? I would be quite concerned for the man's wellbeing as well as the dogs. If as you say there's chewed up dog food tins all over the hallway then what's the rest of the house like and is he actually able to care for himself nevermind the dog. I'm all for the benefits that pets bring to the elderly and I wouldn't like to see the dog just taken off him, if he's on his own it's probably a lot of company for him but he needs help to care for himself and the dog. Not sure who you would contact to express your concerns.

Cherry Blossom

What condition is the dog itself in, any indication that it is not being fed/watered, any signs of neglect of any sort. Personally, I'd speak with the Gardai and see if any family members can be located first off, this is a much bigger issue than a man not being able to care for his dog tbh. Most preferable option would be to try to find a family member/ friend/ neighbour willing to make sure the dog is looked after properly. There's a big chance that taking the dog away (despite the distress caused) will just result in him getting another dog.

mosi

I agree there are bigger issues to consider here.
Regarding family, he has a daughter but she doesn't live nearby, and the neighbours don't know her name or have any details. I don't think she visits much. Apparently he gets meals on wheels delivered but afaik he does not have any home help or anything like that.
The house is in terrible condition, and is very dirty. As well as the chewed empty tins, there was dog food all over the floor. As I said the Gardai were shocked by how bad it was. Last winter the neighbour called in, as he had not seen the man in a few days, and he found him huddled in bed with layers of clothes on, trying to keep warm. Seemingly, he is quite a difficult person to deal with. Others have found him very rude, and he tried to steal a dog off a woman in the park once, claiming it was his.
The dog is 18 months old and is a border terrier mix. He is very friendly, but is definitely on the thin side - not emaciated, but still quite thin. He had a piece of wool tied on to his collar. From what I have been told, he is routinely allowed to wander.
I guess when he shows up, I will try and get contact details for his daughter from him. That might be easier said than done though. I would be very uncomfortable handing the dog over unless his wellbeing could be guaranteed. I understand completely that pets are great for the elderly and I don't want to cause any unnecessary distress. However, the way things look, it seems that both owner and dog need to go to a home.

Fenian Army

mosi wrote: »

I agree there are bigger issues to consider here.
Regarding family, he has a daughter but she doesn't live nearby, and the neighbours don't know her name or have any details. I don't think she visits much. Apparently he gets meals on wheels delivered but afaik he does not have any home help or anything like that.
The house is in terrible condition, and is very dirty. As well as the chewed empty tins, there was dog food all over the floor. As I said the Gardai were shocked by how bad it was. Last winter the neighbour called in, as he had not seen the man in a few days, and he found him huddled in bed with layers of clothes on, trying to keep warm. Seemingly, he is quite a difficult person to deal with. Others have found him very rude, and he tried to steal a dog off a woman in the park once, claiming it was his.
The dog is 18 months old and is a border terrier mix. He is very friendly, but is definitely on the thin side - not emaciated, but still quite thin. He had a piece of wool tied on to his collar. From what I have been told, he is routinely allowed to wander.
I guess when he shows up, I will try and get contact details for his daughter from him. That might be easier said than done though. I would be very uncomfortable handing the dog over unless his wellbeing could be guaranteed. I understand completely that pets are great for the elderly and I don't want to cause any unnecessary distress. However, the way things look, it seems that both owner and dog need to go to a home.

Poor man, but I don't think you have much choice, you can't really steal his dog.

People with dementia can be very hard to deal with, not their fault though ofc.

hollysf

Is there a district nurse in your area you could contact about this poor man

mosi

Fenian Army wrote: »

Poor man, but I don't think you have much choice, you can't really steal his dog.

People with dementia can be very hard to deal with, not their fault though ofc.

I really don't want to get to a situation where I'm "stealing" a dog. It's such a bad situation to send the dog back to though That's why I'm wondering if any agencies - be it the SPCA or the HSE - can be involved here. Or, even better, his family, if they can be contacted.

mosi

hollysf wrote: »

Is there a district nurse in your area you could contact about this poor man

I'll look into that tomorrow and see what they say.

Topper7

Personally I would be more concerned for the owner than the dog. The man clearly has difficulty in looking after himself & the dog. I would suggest contacting the HSE/local public health nurse regarding your concerns. http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/Older_People_Services/ Perheaps a local vol can also help such as www.alone.ie/ the legion of mary, the order of malta, lions club etc. as it would maybe difficult to get the right help for the man from the HSE in the short term.
In contrast, the man may not want help & all he wants is to be left alone with his dog?
This story remins me of a relation of mine. Similar case and all my relation had was a cat & dog (no children of his own). I & neighbours would bring him & the pets food, especially if we thought he/pets wasnt getting enough to eat. But he just wanted to be left alone. So if we got no answer we would leave box at the door and call back a day or 2 later to ensure that he got it. He was ashamed to allow people into the house to see its condition & scared to admit that he needed help in case of what might happen to him.
Personally I would suggest that you contact some local organisation re the mans condition & return the pet immeaditely! If you feel that strongly for the pet maybe you could pop around to the man from time to time & check on them both?

mosi

Topper7 wrote: »

Personally I would suggest that you contact some local organisation re the mans condition & return the pet immeaditely! If you feel that strongly for the pet maybe you could pop around to the man from time to time & check on them both?

I would have no problem popping around. However, what if he keeps letting the dog wander? I learned that others who have found and returned the dog to him have received a barrage of verbal abuse off him for doing so. I really don't fancy finding the dog dead on the road one day when I could have done something.
It is disgraceful that the man is living like that, and that is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed, and that I will look into further.

JustAThought

Imagine if you were alone in the world, had no friends and a daughter that rarely visited. And someone took your pet dog and refused to give it back.

You need to give that man his pet back.

It is not yours,
you do not authorisation to seize it,
and can you imagine how a man who is already confused and barely able to cope must feel now that someone has taken his pet.

As someone else has stated; no doubt a great way to help both him and the dog would be to check in & engage the authorities with regard to the man. No doubt he's " old school" re dogs wandering ; but if the police etc are now involved he will no doubt have options put to him including about the dog; he can then choose what path to follow in a structured way ; rather than just have his pet taken by a stranger & held.

I appreciate that you have good intentions & are interested in helping this poor man and his pet; there are a lot if people who would just walk away; I hope there will be with your help and his neighbours a good outcome for him.
How sad it is

mosi

Just a quick update. It looks as though the owner did not return home last night. Obviously, I don't know what the situation there is - if something has happened to him or if a relative has taken him away for a few days. Either way, it's not a great scenario. The Gardai will be keeping tabs on the situation I'm sure, and hopefully we will know more later.

Dodd

Did you give the dog back.?

What if the guy has gone out looking for his dog and cant find it but keeps looking even though you have it.?

sambuka41

Fair play OP for looking after the dog, and for being concerned about this man. Dementia is such a difficult disease, if the family aren't in contact with you I wouldn't be in much of a hurry to give the dog back myself.

I work with people with dementia, I can understand that this dog may be the only thing this man has but it does present a risk to this gentleman as well as him present a risk to the dog. Trips (for a lot of reasons) can be quite common in people with a dementia so the dog can pose a risk to him as a fall hazzard. Also I worked with a lady who would get frustrated and take it out on the dog if he didn't understand what she wanted, it was so sad, she had been a huge animal lover all her life and was reduced to hitting the dog when she cound't express herself and what she wanted him to do. There was a risk that the dog could turn on her (understandably so).

Highlight your concerns to the Public Health Nurse, he/she will be more likely to look at the overall health and safety of this man. The Gardai will just be concerned that the man is safe, if it comes down to a conversation about the dog they will not get involved. I would imagine the PHN knows about this man and may well be able to contact the family to express concern but also to verify his whereabouts.

good luck

OldNotWIse

Fair play and you are right to be concerned about both. I dont want to start an argument on a thread where someone is seeking advice but I dont really agree with the posts sayingm "give the poor man back his dog". If the dog wanders again and bites a child for example, then it will fall back on him, he is liable for the dogs actions. Also, the dog would need to be destroyed, or if he had an accident and had to be destroyed - wouldn't this be distressing for him?

I'm not entirely sure about the law but afaik the DSPCA would have the power to seize the dog is there are reports that he is being neglected and they do an inspection and find this to be the case. The pound would have the power to seize him if he is wandering unrestrained, and if he is not claimed after a certain amount of time he will become available for adoption.

Dodd

sambuka41

A very informative post.

Thanks.

mosi

Dodd wrote: »

Did you give the dog back.?

What if the guy has gone out looking for his dog and cant find it but keeps looking even though you have it.?

The dog is still here. I couldn't drop the dog into an empty house with the front door open. The next door neighbour has my contact details.

sambuka41 wrote: »

Fair play OP for looking after the dog, and for being concerned about this man. Dementia is such a difficult disease, if the family aren't in contact with you I wouldn't be in much of a hurry to give the dog back myself.

I work with people with dementia, I can understand that this dog may be the only thing this man has but it does present a risk to this gentleman as well as him present a risk to the dog. Trips (for a lot of reasons) can be quite common in people with a dementia so the dog can pose a risk to him as a fall hazzard. Also I worked with a lady who would get frustrated and take it out on the dog if he didn't understand what she wanted, it was so sad, she had been a huge animal lover all her life and was reduced to hitting the dog when she cound't express herself and what she wanted him to do. There was a risk that the dog could turn on her (understandably so).

Highlight your concerns to the Public Health Nurse, he/she will be more likely to look at the overall health and safety of this man. The Gardai will just be concerned that the man is safe, if it comes down to a conversation about the dog they will not get involved. I would imagine the PHN knows about this man and may well be able to contact the family to express concern but also to verify his whereabouts.

good luck

That is so sad about that lady. A friend's mother has dementia, and I stayed in the house sometimes when he was away. She was a very sweet old lady but was a constant worry. She would go out at 3 in the morning to wander down to where the shops were. She's in a home now as the situation was getting a bit much for my friend.
This man's house is quite a health and safety hazard. The way dog food was left around the floor would make me worry about rats. In the gable, there is a hole where pigeons are flying in and out. Will definitely talk to a PHN, and see how to move this forward.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Fair play and you are right to be concerned about both. I dont want to start an argument on a thread where someone is seeking advice but I dont really agree with the posts sayingm "give the poor man back his dog". If the dog wanders again and bites a child for example, then it will fall back on him, he is liable for the dogs actions. Also, the dog would need to be destroyed, or if he had an accident and had to be destroyed - wouldn't this be distressing for him?

I'm not entirely sure about the law but afaik the DSPCA would have the power to seize the dog is there are reports that he is being neglected and they do an inspection and find this to be the case. The pound would have the power to seize him if he is wandering unrestrained, and if he is not claimed after a certain amount of time he will become available for adoption.

Well, his previous dog did bite a child while out wandering, and was subsequently destroyed. I have a friend who volunteers with the DSPCA, so will be talking with her later over the situation.

Regarding the whole issue of handing the dog back, I have handed back plenty of dogs that I have found. Sometimes I haven't approved of their apparent "open door policy" with their dogs but I have handed them back nonetheless. This situation is far more complex though, and accordingly requires a different approach.

OldNotWIse

mosi wrote: »

The dog is still here. I couldn't drop the dog into an empty house with the front door open. The next door neighbour has my contact details.



That is so sad about that lady. A friend's mother has dementia, and I stayed in the house sometimes when he was away. She was a very sweet old lady but was a constant worry. She would go out at 3 in the morning to wander down to where the shops were. She's in a home now as the situation was getting a bit much for my friend.
This man's house is quite a health and safety hazard. The way dog food was left around the floor would make me worry about rats. In the gable, there is a hole where pigeons are flying in and out. Will definitely talk to a PHN, and see how to move this forward.



Well, his previous dog did bite a child while out wandering, and was subsequently destroyed. I have a friend who volunteers with the DSPCA, so will be talking with her later over the situation.

Regarding the whole issue of handing the dog back, I have handed back plenty of dogs that I have found. Sometimes I haven't approved of their apparent "open door policy" with their dogs but I have handed them back nonetheless. This situation is far more complex though, and accordingly requires a different approach.

I volunteered for the DSPCA for years, small world!

Dodd

I think you should put a note on his door saying where the dog is.
He might be out all the time looking for it.
There is still loads to sort out with this person but at least if they know their dog is ok............work from there.?

JustAThought

Small world indeed!!

If the daughter or man or family arnt in a position to keep the dog & the owner is in agreement the Dogs Trust have s scheme where you can apply for a ( free) Canine Card & if you should die (!) they will automatically take care of your dog ; their policy is that they never put a healthy dog down. Perhaps it might be a suggestion to take up with the man & his family; if he does end up wanting/ having to part with his pet it might be something the Dogs Trust could take on under this scheme. Thou trchnically I think you re supposed to be deceased!!! Better odds than 5 days in the pound.


Either way it's still not your decision even thou you care. It is not your dog to take or give away.

mosi

I spoke to the PHN today and she said she knows the man well. She didn't seem too concerned though - when I mentioned the state of the house, she said - rather defensively - that the house had been done up. Regarding the dog, she asked would I not just let him find his own way home :eek: She also said that the man has a sister and she would call her with my details.
Next, I called the DSPCA. They advised that I should call the dog warden. If the dog was reclaimed they said I should then contact them immediately. I was really reluctant to go the pound route but it was starting to look like the only viable option until I had a breakthrough.
The OH and I went to the local vets, to see if they knew him and to scan for a chip. Turns out they know the situation very well. The dog has been handed into them numerous times by people who have found him. He has also been in the pound on a few occasions. The vets have been trying to persuade the man's sister to let the dog be rehomed. It also seems that the man is due to go into a home soon. I left my number with them and the sister should be contacting me tomorrow. I'll discuss the options with her when I speak to her and see where we go from there.

ppink

Mosi fair play to you for all your efforts. it is a very difficult situation to be in with no really clear way of handling it.
Best thing might be to talk to the sister and let her decide, she should have a better knowledge of the man and the dog.
I do think Dodds suggestion about the note on the door is a good one.

JustAThought

mosi wrote: »

I spoke to the PHN today and she said she knows the man well. She didn't seem too concerned though - when I mentioned the state of the house, she said - rather defensively - that the house had been done up. Regarding the dog, she asked would I not just let him find his own way home :eek: She also said that the man has a sister and she would call her with my details.
Next, I called the DSPCA. They advised that I should call the dog warden. If the dog was reclaimed they said I should then contact them immediately. I was really reluctant to go the pound route but it was starting to look like the only viable option until I had a breakthrough.
The OH and I went to the local vets, to see if they knew him and to scan for a chip. Turns out they know the situation very well. The dog has been handed into them numerous times by people who have found him. He has also been in the pound on a few occasions. The vets have been trying to persuade the man's sister to let the dog be rehomed. It also seems that the man is due to go into a home soon. I left my number with them and the sister should be contacting me tomorrow. I'll discuss the options with her when I speak to her and see where we go from there.

I'm impressedby the amount ofeffort & rooms you are putting into this. It's a very sad story by all accounts. Sad fact remains that it is still not your dog and handing it into the pound will most likely have that poor mans pet destroyed. Imagine if that happened to you if you were old & I'll & confused & loosing your home.
I suspect that the daughters reluctance to do so might stemfrom the fact she knows this & despite everything dosnt want this to happen; nor perhaps to take it herself. Perhaps an indication of hope in thus sad story.
At end end of the day that dog belongs to that man ; and it should not be given away or handed in to be put on what is ultimately a 5 day death row without his permission.

For all you know there are alternatives.
Do youknow this family personally; prior to finding his pet?

Either way thank you for all the time & trouble You are spending on him. But do rememberthatdespite caring this is not your pet; it belongs to the old man.

Imagine if someone did that to your pet if you were old and confused and ill.

maggiepip

Im not sure that Mosi is getting enough praise from some people for what he/ she is doing. Why do people keep saying "the man owns this dog" ...."give the dog back"....etc How can he/she give the dog back to an empty house with the front door open??

This dog is obviously not being looked after properly as it has been found roaming numerous times - endangering itself and other people on the roads. It is also in danger of falling into the hands of thugs etc if it is out roaming.

Of course it is sad about the plight of this poor man, but if he cannot properly look after his dog then he shouldnt have the dog. It is unfair to the dog who should have rights also - to be kept free from harm, fed, walked and loved.

Mosi is making a huge effort to try and do the best thing for this dog,he/ she has phoned numerous authorities (he/she seems to be getting very little help) and has shown unbelievable caring, kindness, and responsible actions. He/She has certainly not just taken someones dog willy nilly. To all those who keep saying give the dog back - you believe then that he/she should just hand over the dog to an empty house? or just throw the dog into a very ill man when that person is putting the welfare of the dog at risk??? (of course not deliberately).

I have 3 dogs and if I had dementia and didnt know what I was doing and ended up not looking after my dogs and causing them danger by leaving front doors open etc.... the "well" me (so to speak - I hope you follow) would be eternally grateful for an extremely kind person to step in and be concerned about the welfare of my beloved dogs. This man - if he was well - would probably be horrified his beloved dog was being put in danger.

Everything this extremely kind and caring person has done so far is hugely admirable - it is just a shame there are not more people out there willing to put such effort into doing the right thing - it is uplifting to see someone take the time to care.

JustAThought

maggiepip wrote: »

Im not sure that Mosi is getting enough praise from some people for what he/ she is doing. Why do people keep saying "the man owns this dog" ...."give the dog back"....etc How can he/she give the dog back to an empty house with the front door open??

This dog is obviously not being looked after properly as it has been found roaming numerous times - endangering itself and other people on the roads. It is also in danger of falling into the hands of thugs etc if it is out roaming.

Of course it is sad about the plight of this poor man, but if he cannot properly look after his dog then he shouldnt have the dog. It is unfair to the dog who should have rights also - to be kept free from harm, fed, walked and loved.

Mosi is making a huge effort to try and do the best thing for this dog,he/ she has phoned numerous authorities (he/she seems to be getting very little help) and has shown unbelievable caring, kindness, and responsible actions. He/She has certainly not just taken someones dog willy nilly. To all those who keep saying give the dog back - you believe then that he/she should just hand over the dog to an empty house? or just throw the dog into a very ill man when that person is putting the welfare of the dog at risk??? (of course not deliberately).

I have 3 dogs and if I had dementia and didnt know what I was doing and ended up not looking after my dogs and causing them danger by leaving front doors open etc.... the "well" me (so to speak - I hope you follow) would be eternally grateful for an extremely kind person to step in and be concerned about the welfare of my beloved dogs. This man - if he was well - would probably be horrified his beloved dog was being put in danger.

Everything this extremely kind and caring person has done so far is hugely admirable - it is just a shame there are not more people out there willing to put such effort into doing the right thing - it is uplifting to see someone take the time to care.

Agreed totally. Thou the old man would probably be more horrified tohear that his pet was bring put down, or given away without his permission.

Jimmy Bottlehead

OP, I commend you on all you're doing, and on taking the dog's welfare into account - my girlfriend & I took in a dog about two years ago, and some people weren't very nice about us being so concerned for a dog that clearly wasn't looked after.

I think you're doing the right thing by following the official channels - as has been said, if you just chuck the dog back into an empty house, you don't know what could happen. He could be killed by car, bite a child, or end up blown up or set on fire by thugs. You just don't know, and the wee fella deserves to be kept safe until things develop.

I hope the elderly man returns soon, and that he's given the care he clearly needs. It's a tragic case for both he and the dog, but you're doing an amazing and selfless thing, so well done.

OldNotWIse

There are an awful lot of people saying how evil it is to take the mans dog away. Did anyone see the post that said the dog has been at the vets and in the pound a few times? Its only a matter of time before the dog ends up dead...and will be no good to the owner then either. OP I think you are doing the right thing and are to be commended for it. The reality is that (however it came to pass) the dog was allowed to roam the streets. The OP took the dog from immediate danger and has gone out of her way to contact the man/his family etc. Its not like she went into the house and stole the dog. If he'd been left on the street and seized by the warden, he'd be in the pound now anyway and the owner would have no rights to reclaim after 5 days.

mosi

Well, the man is back home, and I have spoken to his sister. She isn't young herself and I think that she finds the situation quite tough.
There were a few inconsistencies in what she was saying, although I when I spoke to her a second time, she seemed to open up a bit more. She is insistent that the dog be returned, although when the man goes into a home, she knows she will have to rehome him. She is interested in learning more about the options for the future when I meet her. Obviously, I'll have to hand the dog back over to her, at this stage I am legally obliged to. The situation is far from ideal, but we'll just have to see how things go. I have been in regular contact with the DSPCA over the situation, and they would be willing to send out an inspector. I'm in two minds as to whether I should go ahead with actually calling them out now straight away though. On the one hand, they could assess the situation themselves and be of some help to this man and his dog. On the other, it would be obvious that I had called them, and be detrimental to my efforts to cooperate with the family. I'll see how the meeting with the sister goes, we may be able to sort out something between ourselves regarding helping the man with the dog.
It's unclear whether the man has a lead for the dog, so I'll give them one of our spares. Hopefully, this incident may prove to be a wake up call to the family and I will emphasise how someone with more sinister intentions could easily pick up the dog if he's out on his own.
When this all happened, the neighbours made out that the man had no family living nearby. They also failed to contact me when the man came home which I don't think is right at all. We really were led to believe that this man had no support at all. The Public Health Nurse never passed my details on to the sister either

sambuka41

What a tough situation. You really have done so much for this family,you'd think the sister would be a little bit more appreciative of the fact that someone cared about her brother as well as his dog. :rolleyes:

Maybe the neighbours didn't contact you as they were hoping to leave the dog with you, where it would be safer?

Such a shame the PHN reacted in that way, there are some good ones out there, but unfortunately you came across one of the burned out ol hags (there are too many of them rocking around). Maybe highlight to the sister that the dog does pose a risk to her brother also, if he trips, or turns on him, if he escapes and the man goes wandering looking for him.

If she can't assure you that there will be something in place to protect both her brother and the dog, then I would be contacting DSPCA as well as the Elder Abuse officer, as living in those conditions is disgraceful, that man had been let down by his famliy and the PHN. (but thats just me, easier as I'm not in your shoes and known to the family)

mosi

Ok, job done.
I met the sister and the owner this afternoon. We had a chat and I feel so sad for that woman. She was in hospital recently and admitted that the situation is very tough. She agrees that the situation in the house has gotten out of hand, and she is only beginning to get on top of it again. She hopes to have the man in a home in about three months time. She has promised to stay in touch (I really hope she does - I have her details anyway though), and we will stay vigilant of the situation. She said she will ring me when the time comes, and I will help to find a home or rescue space for the dog.
I will hold off on the DSPCA inspection for the time being. I spoke to them again and they agreed that an inspection at this stage could be counterproductive. If the situation can be managed and if this lady feels she can contact me for help, then we may ultimately be able to work towards a solution. If I alienate these people, then they are not likely to let me help at all. Of course, if matters don't improve it is still definitely an option. I'll play it by ear and see how things go. They are at least aware of the situation and I can talk to them any time if necessary.
Thanks so much to all of you who have been supportive here. It has been such a difficult situation and has been very draining. I could never have handed the dog back directly to the man without investigating the situation. It would have been totally irresponsible. The outcome has maybe not been the most ideal, but was the only viable option in the end and I made every effort to sort out the situation. Hopefully we can move forward with things and monitor the situation to ensure the wellbeing of all involved.

Zapperzy

Well done Mosi! Others would have done what the PHN said and let him loose to find his own way home and kept their noses out but hopefully now both dog and man will get the help they need. Pat yourself on the back and have a large glass of wine tonight!