Is the leaving cert system adequate

steddyeddy

I saw a great letter in todays Irish times that brought it all back to me. Its by a student who is sitting the leaving this year. Shes under extreme pressure and is quite stressed. Should the leaving cert be changed or is it ok as is? I personally think it could and should be changed. Its not a good way to determine who gets into college imho and it doesnt prepare people for college imho. Anyway Ive included a poll and heres the letter from the times.

Sir, – Some say the world will end in 2013, I say it will end on June 6th, 2012 – at least it feels that way.
I am a Leaving Cert student and I have never been under so much pressure or stress in my whole life. Srá pictuirí, project maths, the poetry conundrum: Kinsella or Plath? And that’s only the start of it. I found the time to write this letter solely because it comes under my English revision. In sixth year, there are not enough hours in the day for the amount of stuff to be done, many students are juggling seven or eight subjects and trying to cram everything into one final year of hell. But why does the Irish education system do this to young people?
It’s all about points and entry requirements, the real concept of learning has been lost in translation and that is such a pity. Everything has to be learned off by heart in the hope that you’ll somehow be able to regurgitate and vomit it out on to the paper on the day of the exam.
I know I’m not alone in this suffering and stress, as thousands of fellow students will sit their Leaving Cert this year and thousands upon thousands before us have done so. But that’s what puzzles me most. Many people will agree that the points system is a farce, yet we do nothing to change it. You just get through it as best you can and then forget about it, leaving second-level students in the future subject to its pressures; an unjust account of one’s true ability, where it more or less depends on how you perform on the day. A system of continuous assessment, similar to those of Northern Ireland or Finland, would be much fairer and would prevent this anxiety-provoking milestone in young Irish people’s lives.
The Leaving Cert is a marathon. At the end of it you are left hoping that you’ll get by in this points race and – to put bluntly – not have to repeat this torture next year. – Yours, etc,

Pushtrak

Invisible poll?

Edit: Because people are still responding to this, it wasn't there when I first came in to the thread. Duh.

steddyeddy

Pushtrak wrote: »

Invisible poll?

Added now mate!

Ghandee

Pushtrak wrote: »

Invisible poll?

need new spectacles?

steddyeddy

Ghandee wrote: »

need new spectacles?

Ah in fairness it was my fault I started the thread before adding the poll!

Diego Maradona

Where's the invisible poll?

jimthemental

If she's this stressed over a few exams she has had a couple of years to study then she's going to love college when because of projects you have at max 2 clean weeks to study.

Superbus

It's not that bad if you choose your subjects correctly and work sensibly. But I'm saying that as someone who hasn't actually done the exams yet (English Paper 1 on Wednesday morning, eep), so I really know nothing in all likelihood.

Well as someone who had stuff happen outside of school just before one exam, I can say it should be more continuous assessment. One bad day can have too much of an effect on your results.

Pushtrak

Superbus wrote: »

It's not that bad if you choose your subjects correctly and work sensibly.

I don't think the current system is the best in terms of the subjects/points et cetera. How one gets on in any subject that is related to the course they want to get in to should have a higher priority for points than other subjects. With this view, any business related subjects would get more than the standard if looking for a business related course than say, geography, biology and so on.

Where To

Just as we suffered years ago so should our children suffer now.

Diego Maradona

Diego Maradona wrote: »

Where's the invisible poll?

If you could see it, it wouldn't be invisible, but trust me it's there.

Rocket19

I've never understood the whole "the leaving cert is the most stressful thing you will ever experience in life" thing...!

I did it three years ago (so not THAT long ago), and somehow I managed to survive. In my school, we had to stay in 'til 8pm doing study (with breaks obviously, but it was still hardcore), come in to study on weekends, during 'holidays', etc.
Yes, it was stressful, and yes it's a heavy curriculum, but it's not that bloody hard! If you can't handle the leaving cert, you sure as hell won't handle college, never mind the work environment. I think that somehow we've made it acceptable for people to say "oh poor such-such, she's doing the leaving cert", and "it's the hardest exam of your life". Having experienced college, I just don't think it is.

I'm reasonably academic, and I realise for some students, it just doesn't come as easy, but it's only as stressful as you make it for yourself. To be honest, if you work hard (and that doesn't have to mean 10 hours of daily study), you WILL do well. It's a very repetitive course, very predictable. There were people in my year probably less "smart" than me, who achieved better results simply because they worked harder. 2 years is plenty of time, especially considering the entire cruriculum is very "exam-based" these days.

Think it was Yeats that said "education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire". That's what education should be, and admittedly, that certainly doesn't describe the leaving. As I mentioned, it's very exam based, insular, repetitive. It's not "fresh", and I doubt it has been for a long time. That said, compared to other countries, it's a relatively well-rounded curriculum, and in my opinion, the fact that's it's not overly "career-orientated" is not a bad thing (like the English system). Kids shouldn't be forced into a particular degree just because they happened to take a particular school subject at the age of 16. There'll always be flaws!

oppenheimer1

Dear LC student,

Pressure and stress are part and parcel of real life. Deal with it.

byhookorbycrook

It's not a good system, but it is objective.

BazDel

I did the leaving cert last year and I believe it's grand as it is. A few things could be changed but a drastic overhaul is not necessary in my opinion. Continuous assessment would not be a viable alternative.

I don't buy the whole 'we should change it because it puts too much pressure on people' argument. Pressure is everywhere and working with it shows mental toughness. It only gets to you if you let it! If you put the work in during the 2/3 years you will have no problems. That means doing the homework you are given and trying your best for in-house exams.

The only exception would be people looking for very high points for medicine etc. as they need to do near perfect.

Eathrin

I don't get this pressure and stress students seem to be under after studying a relatively short course for a whole year. A year!
I'm sitting my Leaving Cert beginning on Wednesday and I honestly haven't studied a bit. Not once have I sat down after school or on the weekends to revise material and yet I'm confident enough I can get 500+ points due to whatever work we've done during class time.

But that's one of my talents, I didn't stress myself out because I failed to make the school running team, I accept that other people are better.
The system is there to sort students based on their academic ability. What needs to be done is implement a system where students are not rewarded for learning off huge amounts of material.

Rocket19

Rocket19 wrote: »

I've never understood the whole "the leaving cert is the most stressful thing you will ever experience in life" thing...!

I did it three years ago (so not THAT long ago), and somehow I managed to survive. In my school, we had to stay in 'til 8pm doing study (with breaks obviously, but it was still hardcore), come in to study on weekends, during 'holidays', etc.
Yes, it was stressful, and yes it's a heavy curriculum, but it's not that bloody hard! If you can't handle the leaving cert, you sure as hell won't handle college, never mind the work environment. I think that somehow we've made it acceptable for people to say "oh poor such-such, she's doing the leaving cert", and "it's the hardest exam of your life". Having experienced college, I just don't think it is.

I'm reasonably academic, and I realise for some students, it just doesn't come as easy, but it's only as stressful as you make it for yourself. To be honest, if you work hard (and that doesn't have to mean 10 hours of daily study), you WILL do well. It's a very repetitive course, very predictable. There were people in my year probably less "smart" than me, who achieved better results simply because they worked harder. 2 years is plenty of time, especially considering the entire cruriculum is very "exam-based" these days.

Think it was Yeats that said "education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire". That's what education should be, and admittedly, that certainly doesn't describe the leaving. As I mentioned, it's very exam based, insular, repetitive. It's not "fresh", and I doubt it has been for a long time. That said, compared to other countries, it's a relatively well-rounded curriculum, and in my opinion, the fact that's it's not overly "career-orientated" is not a bad thing (like the English system). Kids shouldn't be forced into a particular degree just because they happened to take a particular school subject at the age of 16. There'll always be flaws!

I find this a very self centered and blinkered view I have to say.

Mr Benevolent

The stress is caused by students believing the hype about the consequences of getting less than 1000 points.

Rocket19

Sacramento wrote: »

I find this a very self centered and blinkered view I have to say.

Really? How so?

Kylo Ren

I'm in favor of a more 'Battle Royal' system to determine who gets to go to College. Each school would transform their buildings to cater for a full on war. It could be monetarily beneficial through sponsorship's and live televised events.

If they keep dumbing down the curriculum it certainly will need some overhaul
How much of that old physics course did they end up throwing out 10 years ago? Get rid of calculus and matrices in project maths...? That well known essay by a student on being an individual getting nearly full marks in English...?

dfx-

It should be overhauled and made harder or should that be more spontaneous.

Richard Hillman

dfx- wrote: »

It should be overhauled and made harder or should that be more spontaneous.

Was just about to post something in relation to this. In the vast majority of cases the students are taught to pass the test. They are not actually learning about the respective subjects. You could well get an Honours A1 in a language and not be able to hold a solid conversation if you visited the country of origin.

skinny90

It was a piece of piss,very predictable

whatdoicare

It's a very weird system not in tune with individuals at all - while I agree in theory about continual assessment, in reality, I always did really poorly on average when it was done and a lot better in an annual exam while my friend never did well in exams because she would blank on the day even though she was far more intelligent than I was and probably would have done alot better if the exams were continual!

My long term memory is terrible while my short term memory is almost photographic - the only way I was able to do very well in an exam was to push it into my brain in the short few hours before the exam, otherwise I had to learn and adapt ways to trick the system into thinking I knew the information - soon after the exam the knowledge I learned was pushed out to make room for the next lot of information I needed to force in.

I actually managed to learn a way in languages to answer all the questions, speak my piece during the oral and write essays without learning or understanding any of the language. I was exceptionally good at this and managed to gain a B1 in honors French and an B3 in honors Irish without being able to speak a single word of either language.

Obviously on paper I am proficient in both and technically I could go to France and start speaking to the locals without encountering any problems but in reality I couldn't read a menu last time I was in France.

I can speak a great deal of Spanish though not because I studied it in school but because my husband speaks Spanish as a hobby and I made the effort to speak it with him for my own amusement.

In other subjects I relied on my great talent for turning tiny pieces of solid information into paragraphs and pages and learned all the diagrams that I could. This always gained me a lot of points in a test as it gave the illusion that I knew and understood the subject.

While I thought myself clever beyond measure at the time and gained all the point and more for the college place I needed - I realise that the whole six years of my secondary education was a complete waste of time and energy.

The only thing I learned was a very handy life skill of working around my short comings - not many people I know realise that I can't remember anything I learned a week ago if it's not enforced daily. Oh well....:pac:

tommyboy2222

I think the problem with the Leaving Cert is that a lot of it consists of learning things off by heart on then regurgitating it onto the answer sheet.

It doesn't really incorporate problem solving which is an important skill to learn.

Also getting 6 a1's in your LC doesn't mean you are suited to a career in medicine !!

Rocket19

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Was just about to post something in relation to this. In the vast majority of cases the students are taught to pass the test. They are not actually learning about the respective subjects. You could well get an Honours A1 in a language and not be able to hold a solid conversation if you visited the country of origin.

I'd agree with this.
I had a very good Irish teacher, but only good in terms of getting the best exam result.
We were made put a lot of work in, even had classes BEFORE school doing "Peig" on a Wednesday morning (bleh!). I actually got a B1 in Higher Irish, but even though I only did the leaving 3 years ago, I honestly couldn't hold a decent conversation in Irish. Unless you wanna talk about "m'áit conaithe" or "an coras sláinte". I could probably still recite "Sliocht 1" or whatever, too.

I don't buy this "poor stressed students" thing. How're you gonna cope with a hardcore university course if THIS stresses you out?
Kids are utterly trained and solely equipped for the leaving cert. THAT'S the problem, but how could you blame students/teachers for doing it? It's not the stress, it's the fundamental approach to education that needs to be overhauled.

Dudess

Third level is more difficult but I still found the exams less of an ordeal than the leaving cert - because third level was interesting, leaving cert was painfully dull.

FloatingVoter

Bullet points and diagrams are the secret to success for the exam ace. Actually succeeding in the real world, well...nah...you'll figure that out yourselves.

delta_bravo

tommyboy2222 wrote: »

Also getting 6 a1's in your LC doesn't mean you are suited to a career in medicine !!

Thats not the job of the leaving cert. Thats up to the candidate to figure out for themselves.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Leaving cert is a load of balls.

Getting good grades in the Leavign and thinking you're intelligent is like jumping in a puddle and thinking you can swim.

Battered Mars Bar

It's too easy is the problem. 2 years build up to an exam for 6 subjects ffs we're soft. Reality is, no one really does anything in 5th year and the first 6 months of 6th year is spent getting pissed then the sh*t hits the fan for these lazy students.

The problem apart from it being too easy is you learn nothing about researching or thinking and thinking is important. :pac: Instead you're given 2 years to learn a few things off by heart pfft, throw enough sh*t up against the wall and some of it will stick then just vomit it onto an exam paper and hey presto 500+ points. and it's the students that are complaining??

sock puppet

bluewolf wrote: »

Get rid of calculus and matrices in project maths...?

That's just hysterical nonsense. There's no way calculus will ever be taken off the course. And under the old course matrices were half a question which was pointless. Imo the best thing would have been either to remove them entirely, which they've done, or else have introduced an entire question or two on linear algebra.

Novella

To be perfectly honest, I found sixth year immensely stressful. I wanted to get high points and I always felt the pressure of knowing that I needed to perform pretty much perfectly in each exam I did.

I don't think it's a great way of determining college places. Just because someone isn't an A grade student in Irish, French etc., doesn't mean that they wouldn't be a good dentist or whatever.

*I think there should be college entrance exams relating to the area the student is interested in.

*I haven't actually thought this through, might be crazy!

sock puppet

sock puppet wrote: »

That's just hysterical nonsense. There's no way calculus will ever be taken off the course. And under the old course matrices were half a question which was pointless. Imo the best thing would have been either to remove them entirely, which they've done, or else have introduced an entire question or two on linear algebra.

So matrices were taken off the course and that's hysterical nonsense?

On calculus:

What disappears is most material on calculus – a lot of differentiation, almost all integration, as well as all vectors, all matrices, discrete maths and much more

http://www.projectmaths.com/index.php/2012/05/ul-maths-lecturer-saysthis-dumbed-down-syllabus-is-a-distortion-of-the-mathematics-required-to-equip-our-students-for-third-level/

Sir, – If you look at the papers for project mathematics on the Department of Education website, and this is a very worthwhile exercise, you will notice a huge reduction in areas such as calculus

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0316/1224313392768.html

steddyeddy

Well for me the problem is that You could be a brilliant scientist in the making and because of a poor result in Irish you wont get into science. The same goes for any other potential career. As bluewolf said aswell the subjects are being dumbed down to a massive level. Biology in the leaving cert is nothing like biology in college. Our lecturers told us from day one that we should forget every bit of leaving cert biology we have learned.

Rocket19

Rocket19 wrote: »

Really? How so?

Well as I said in my initial reply, because the exams count for so much. Certain circumstances that may arise directly before an exam can leave someone with a bad result through no wrong doing of their own. While my reply to your post may have been a bit, sharp, it comes from you saying stuff like "but it's not that bloody hard!" and "If you can't handle the leaving cert, you sure as hell won't handle college" and especially "but it's only as stressful as you make it for yourself." Too many sweeping statements with little or no consideration for people that didn't have things go as smoothly as it did for you.

The Leaving Cert didn't go well for me because certain non-school related things happened, but I still went to college and got my degree. This discredits some of the points you made IMO. Also, overall you came across as looking down on people that find the leaving cert especially stressful or dismissing college from their future if they were "unable to handle the leaving cert".

GaryIrv93

I'm starting my LC on Wednesday, and agree that continuous assessment should have been implemented instead of exams. Because the LC the way it is now is a memory test, not an intelligence test. Getting 500+ points in the LC, - yeah it proves you can memorize the information and spit it back out on the paper correctly, but does it test actual intelligence? No, it doesn't. Exams stress students out, and lower their self-esteem if they do worse than others. What disgusts me is that the academic students are rewarded for their good grades just because an exam-oriented education system suits them. It doesn't suit everyone though. Exams only reward the more academic students. Just because I fail a maths exam, and the guy next to me gets top marks, is he automatically more intelligent or worth more than I am? I don't think so.

I support continuous assessment because it actually shows the quality of your work, and that's what's required in the workplace, and what's done in the workplace, not exams. I've completed class projects in 4th year for example that were much better than even the top students in my class, because I was given time to do them, didn't have to rush them like you have to rush an exam and they didn't stress me either. I'd say though that students should be allowed to choose between continuous assessment and exams - CA suit some students, and exams suit others, whichever you're more confident with.

Get rid of the points system or grades system also, seriously. To get into the right course, it should either be one or the other; The right points or the right grades, not both. Let's say you get enough points for your desired course, then you realise that you didn't get the right grades, so basically it says ''Tough sh*t.'' :mad: That's what annoys me most.

sock puppet

bluewolf wrote: »

So matrices were taken off the course and that's hysterical nonsense?

On calculus:

http://www.projectmaths.com/index.php/2012/05/ul-maths-lecturer-saysthis-dumbed-down-syllabus-is-a-distortion-of-the-mathematics-required-to-equip-our-students-for-third-level/


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0316/1224313392768.html

I just don't think the matrice or vector sections were useful at all. For starters I think it would have been better not to have them in two separate questions on different papers.

On the old syllabus calculus was worth a potential 25% of the exam (think there is an option for more on paper 2). Under project maths calculus is worth 17% of the exam. The questions are the exact same as those in the old syllabus.

steddyeddy

Novella wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, I found sixth year immensely stressful. I wanted to get high points and I always felt the pressure of knowing that I needed to perform pretty much perfectly in each exam I did.

I don't think it's a great way of determining college places. Just because someone isn't an A grade student in Irish, French etc., doesn't mean that they wouldn't be a good dentist or whatever.

*I think there should be college entrance exams relating to the area the student is interested in.

*I haven't actually thought this through, might be crazy!

This is an excellent idea. I would love to see this come in.

GaryIrv93

Also for most students I don't think the LC is actually half as important as parents and teachers make it out to be. They need to let up on the pressure they put on their students - nowadays the LC is far more stressful than it was years ago. So what if you do badly anyway? Doesn't make you an idiot, worthless, nor a failure. My guidance counseller has told me of people who took it easy in their Leaving Certs, didn't really study, and ended up with 70 or less points in their Leavings, and still found countless courses that they enjoyed, especially practical ones. Wheras the the most academic students have worked their arses off for the whole 2 years for high-points courses, and either fell short of just a few points in the end, or ended up hating their courses. I say don't stress yourselves out too much. If people are achieving higher than you in memory tests, don't worry about them making you look bad. We all lose in one way, but gain in another. Someone might be far more academic than I am, but I for example could produce a work of art that person never could in a million years. We're all unique in one way or another. There's more to life than school, academics or exams.

guitarzero

The school system is ridiculous thus the leaving is ridiculous. Its not about knowledge or thought but drilling ones head relentlessly without the ability to integrate this info. I could write a thesis on how school is the maker of our eventual destruction.

Rocket19

Sacramento wrote: »

Well as I said in my initial reply, because the exams count for so much. Certain circumstances that may arise directly before an exam can leave someone with a bad result through no wrong doing of their own. While my reply to your post may have been a bit, sharp, it comes from you saying stuff like "but it's not that bloody hard!" and "If you can't handle the leaving cert, you sure as hell won't handle college" and especially "but it's only as stressful as you make it for yourself." Too many sweeping statements with little or no consideration for people that didn't have things go as smoothly as it did for you.

The Leaving Cert didn't go well for me because certain non-school related things happened, but I still went to college and got my degree. This discredits some of the points you made IMO. Also, overall you came across as looking down on people that find the leaving cert especially stressful or dismissing college from their future if they were "unable to handle the leaving cert".

Oh no, I totally understand that there is pressure, I certainly didn't mean to totally undermine that. When you're aiming for a certain course (particularly one with high points), obviously much is centred on "the day", and god forbid you fcuk up on "the day".
In my case, I wanted an A1 in honours English, totally ballsed it, and ended up with a B1. Not bad you might say, but I was absolutely banking on the A, and it really was a case of a bad paper for me. I really didn't mean to be snotty or insensitive.

I will stand by what I said somewhat though, because I do believe too much emphasis IS placed on just how stressful it is, and students feed into this to a certain extent (albeit not intentionally). There seems to a media worship of "the leaving cert student". It seems they're actively encouraged to stress out ffs.
My sister is doing the LC at the moment and the amount of times she has said "the leaving is sooo much harder than college". This is sh*t that they tell them in schools, and we wonder why it stresses them out!
There seems to be an over-whelming consensus in schools that if you fcuk up the leaving cert, your life is basically over. Of course, if students believe this (and I don't really blame them for it), they're going to be stressed, but it's simply not a realistic view. There's always another way, a way of doing it again, a way of managing your stress. To an otherwise great student who messes up on the day, that's really unfortunate, but tbh, I'd just call that bad luck, it's not something I feel happens to the majority. A national system just can't cater for the individual, it just doesn't work like that. The reality is that in most cases, if you genuinely work hard for the 2 years, it will show.

Also...does anyone honestly think that the student who wrote into the Irish Times describing it as "torture" was not taking the biscuit a little bit? She'll do well in creative writing anyway...

Chavways

Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

It's too easy is the problem. 2 years build up to an exam for 6 subjects ffs we're soft. Reality is, no one really does anything in 5th year and the first 6 months of 6th year is spent getting pissed then the sh*t hits the fan for these lazy students.

I don't know where you're getting this from.

AngeGal

In my opinion, it's a fair method. Once you have a certain level of intelligence, it really stops being so important how naturally gifted you are and comes down to work.

Malcolm Gladwell previously wrote about this, I think his example was the difference between an iq of 90 and an iq of 110 is a much more significant one that that of between an iq of 110 and an iq of 130.

I think you need a minimum amount of intelligence to get 500 plus. My point being, if you're smart enough to get into medicine/law/etc., you're smart enough to get through it and do well.

Ultimately, success usually boils down to hard work. In that regard, the leaving cert prepares students reasonably well to succeed I would suggest. Another advantage is that it's a blind system, there can be no suggestion of favouritism.

Battered Mars Bar

Chavways wrote: »

I don't know where you're getting this from.

Must've just been my LC year then :rolleyes:

Duggys Housemate

Continuous assessment is a load of old horlicks - some courses excepted - and it would probably be examined by the teacher in the school, who has no incentive to fail anybody. Even if external examiners examined, whats to stop students getting help from teachers or parents before submitting to the externals? What if a teacher is biased?

It won't work. As for rote, I am not sure how rote the leaving certificate is these days, it wasn't so much in my day. Some subjects lend themselves to rote, and some don't. Critics of "rote" learning tend to compare the leaving cert unfavourably with college courses, but law, biology, medicine and many other college courses are rote. Learning is learning, knowing the names of plants is rote, the symptoms of a disease is rote, the result in the supreme court case No" Vxiii, Johnson Vs O'Sullivan is rote.

Applying this is not rote, but the leaving cert will be - on average - less rote than some college courses.

I do think the LC is faulted and needs a lot of changes.

I think there should be a broader choice of subjects and less compulsory subjects (in particular subjects like Irish). This would be very difficult to implement though. I honestly believe it would be worth shortening the school day if it meant more classes could be run.

There are many other changes which should be made. Some subjects are far too easy, while others are too hard, which is what has led to tactical learning and gambling on being able to predict questions.

However, the whole thing about stress is silly. Some students will get stressed out, and others wont, and no matter how difficult or easy the course is, the stressy students will always stress about it and the laid back ones will always be laid back. It's nothing to do with the curriculum.

Cruel Sun

In all seriousness- Continuous Assessment.

steddyeddy

AngeGal wrote: »

In my opinion, it's a fair method. Once you have a certain level of intelligence, it really stops being so important how naturally gifted you are and comes down to work.

Malcolm Gladwell previously wrote about this, I think his example was the difference between an iq of 90 and an iq of 110 is a much more significant one that that of between an iq of 110 and an iq of 130.

I think you need a minimum amount of intelligence to get 500 plus. My point being, if you're smart enough to get into medicine/law/etc., you're smart enough to get through it and do well.

Ultimately, success usually boils down to hard work. In that regard, the leaving cert prepares students reasonably well to succeed I would suggest.

I think anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence can get 600 points with a lot of hard work. Those six hundred points grant entry into any course regardless of the suitability of the student for the course. The leaving cert should be more tailored for the universities needs.