Is the leaving cert system adequate

GaryIrv93

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Ok then let's make things fair by giving easier exams to the less intelligent students. How about that?

That's a thing called Ordinary / Foundation Level - which still require a lot of studying, and students doing them will also be rewarded with far less points. What I said back there was that they can do a subject level at the same difficulty as the more academic students and still receive the same amount of points as long as they get to choose how to work; assessment or exams. It has nothing to do with intelligence level. As said earlier; exams suit some students, assessent suits others. I don't think a choice is too much to ask,

Taco Chips

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

The thing is though is that if a student downright hates studying, which many do, then it's going to be far more difficult for them to concentrate, do their homework, and work for two years. Some students just can't deal with that, and that's they way it is, especially if they're not very motivated. Telling them 'suck it up, ahhhh sure it won't kill you' does nothing to help them. Students like that need proper encouragement and a promise of a good reward if they're going to have any chance of overcoming their hate of putting their head down to study.

"Hating studying" is everything to do with their mindset. If you convince yourself that you dislike something or can't do it then it's going to seem much worse than it actually is. I know it's maybe a bullish way of putting things but sometimes you really do just have to suck it up. I did my leaving last year. I know exactly how stressful it is. I dreaded studying every day of sixth year, and I did it for a solid 6 hours after school every day until 10 pm. Do you think I enjoyed it? No. But it paid off in the end. Trust me, I know that when you are in the system the exams seem like a huge deal. Really they're not as important as they're made out. I had the very same thing said to me last year and I shrugged it off, convincing myself that they were going to be the most crucial stages of my life. They're just not. Everyone is able to study. You just need to pull together some drive and inspiration. The reward at the end? Whatever goal you set yourself and achieve. There's not better prize.

Naomi00

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Ok then let's make things fair by giving easier exams to the less intelligent students. How about that?

The Leaving cert does not measure intelligence at all. It doesn't even measure how good you are at a certain subject, especially English.

EuropeanSon

Anita Blow wrote: »

Can't speak for maths, but English is far and away one of the hardest LC subjects.
Paper 2 requires you to know a Shakespearean text essentially off by heart (As you're required to write about 4-5 pages. Any aspect of the play can come up so you need to know it inside out), then you need to study a play, novel and movie and be able to write 5 pages comparing/contrasting them under a certain mode and then need to know at least 4-5 poets in detail.

All that in a 3 and a half hour exam that's only worth 50% of your overall grade.
I did my LC last year and found English incredibly difficult, to the point that it was detracting from my other subjects.

That, I feel, doesn't constitute teaching it to a high standard, but rather just making it difficult for difficulty's sake. A distinction should be made here between something being difficult, and being taught to a high standard.
I think there should have been more advanced comprehension questions, and more emphasis on originality, creativity and the construction of convincing arguments. The Shakespearean and Comparitive sections were poor IMO, though the poetry was OK. It ended up being very formulaic, and not, I felt, a very valid evaluation.

Anita Blow

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

The thing is though is that if a student downright hates studying, which many do, then it's going to be far more difficult for them to concentrate, do their homework, and work for two years. Some students just can't deal with that, and that's they way it is, especially if they're not very motivated. Telling them 'suck it up, ahhhh sure it won't kill you' does nothing to help them. Students like that need proper encouragement and a promise of a good reward if they're going to have any chance of overcoming their hate of putting their head down to study.

No student enjoys studying for the leaving cert and whether you accept it or not, everyone does just have to put their head down and get through it.
If a person doesn't like to study, and can't even put that dislike aside to achieve the much greater goal of getting into the University course they want, then why should they get that place ahead of someone who is willing to put in the work to achieve their goal?

Believe it or not, study doesn't end with the Leaving Cert. I've had to do more work in my first year of college doing one subject than I had to do in 6th year doing 8 and by no means is that an exaggeration. How do you propose that the person who doesn't like to study should handle that? What excuse will they think up then to cover their laziness?

opinion guy

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Ok then let's make things fair by giving easier exams to the less intelligent students. How about that?

Naomi00 wrote: »

The Leaving cert does not measure intelligence at all. It doesn't even measure how good you are at a certain subject, especially English.

What is intelligence anyhow ?
IQ is a very flawed concept to begin with.

To some extent what the LC and even Uni exams do is measure your ability to conform and put in the hard graft.

GaryIrv93

Taco Chips wrote: »

"Hating studying" is everything to do with their mindset. If you convince yourself that you dislike or something or can't do it then it's going to seem much worse than it actually is. I know it's maybe a bullish way of putting things but sometimes you really do just have to suck it up. I did my leaving last year. I know exactly how stressful it is. I dreaded studying every day of sixth year, and I did it for a solid 6 hours after school every day until 10 pm. Do you think I enjoyed it? No. But it paid off in the end. Trust me, I know that when you are in the system the exams seem like a huge deal. Really they're not as important as they're made out. I had the very same thing said to me last year and I shrugged it off, convincing myself that they were going to be the most crucial stages of my life. They're just not. Everyone is able to study. You just need to pull together some drive and inspiration. The reward at the end? Whatever goal you set yourself and achieve. There's not better prize.

Very good point I have to say. Pulling yourself together though is quite a challenge, and when you finally manage to, there's also plenty of distractions to take you back off it. I'm not making excuses, but I've found that it's nearly impossible to shut out every single distraction. They're either hot, sunny weather outside, other people constantly moving around inside the house, and especially technology. At least in my enviornment, there's nearly always something around to distract you, so it's very tough to set your head down and concentrate a lot of the time.

flyswatter

opinion guy wrote: »

What is intelligence anyhow ?
IQ is a very flawed concept to begin with.

To some extent what the LC and even Uni exams do is measure your ability to conform and put in the hard graft.

Exactly. Academic intelligence isn't the be all and end all. You will see people who are less academically smart than others but who have superior life intelligence, if that makes sense. Just that they are more clued in outside an academic context.

steddyeddy

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

The thing is though is that if a student downright hates studying, which many do, then it's going to be far more difficult for them to concentrate, do their homework, and work for two years. Some students just can't deal with that, and that's they way it is, especially if they're not very motivated. Telling them 'suck it up, ahhhh sure it won't kill you' does nothing to help them. Students like that need proper encouragement and a promise of a good reward if they're going to have any chance of overcoming their hate of putting their head down to study.

Well I hated studying for the leaving cert. I found the subjects bland and the fact that it was simply a matter or memorizing facts made things a lot more difficult. When I got into college I found the subject material far far more engaging and as a result I really enjoyed studying. I would even do it during my time off in the summer! The subject material for the leaving cert needs to be far more engaging and encourage students to love learning rather than memorize facts.

leaveiton

I think most of the stress comes from the school environment. I'm starting the LC tomorrow and haven't been this relaxed in months, simply because I've been at home studying at my own pace for the last week or two since graduating. Whereas I found that when I was in school it just seemed like endless, pointless pressure. I'd be in from 9 - 4 and then would have to go home and do a good 3/4 more hours. Now that didn't actually bother me, I accepted that I had to study and I got on with it. But I'd be sitting there with poetry to analyse (in English and in fecking Irish) and wondering what the point of a lot of it was when I want to do a degree in science/maths. It was always the subjects I didn't care about that I seemed to get most work in, too, and then the subjects that I actually enjoyed ended up falling by the wayside so I could make time to write an essay in Irish on poverty. As I said, I got on with it, but it did take its toll. I ended up not sleeping properly and having to take a couple of days off due to pure exhaustion.

Now, I'm not saying that the Leaving Cert is the most stressful thing ever, because I know it's not. Of course stress exists everywhere and it's a part of everyone's life, which is why I think it's just as ridiculous for someone older to say "Stress happens in when you're working/unemployed/whatever, get over it" as it would be for someone in 6th year to turn around and say the same to them about school.

Monkey61

NTMK wrote: »

the current system allows people who are completely unsuitable for certain courses to gain entry at the expense of more suitable people

if a student gets say
A1's in english,Art,Irish
and
C3's in Bio, Chem and maths

it gives them 480points and they scrape the requirements for a science course

while another student goin for the same course gets
A1's in bio, chem, maths
and
C3's in english and art and a d1 in irish

which gives them 475points

if the points are set to 480 for this science course
the student most suitable for this course is excluded

While I do think you have a fair point, I would question the notion of "most suitable" for a course. What does that actually mean? The person who most wants it and has the most interest in it? Or the person who gets the best grade in the exam? They are not neccessarily the same person. A methodical hard worker could easily get A1s across the science subjects without any intuitive grasp of the subjects or particular interest in them, yet choose a science subject on the CAO because of parental/teacher pressure because they are performing well in them. (I spent years listening to teachers recommending I become an actuary/study maths/do dentistry of all things because I was brilliant at maths. And yes I was brilliant at maths...school maths that is. It took starting a maths degree to realise that I had neither interest nor ability in pure maths/numbers/proofs/stats/computers etc at all, I just really, really like doing sums. I was hopeless otherwise!)

To use your examples directly, a brilliant and interested future scientist who gets A1s in bio, chem and maths, but is woeful at languages, would surely pick other subjects to boost their grades across 6 subjects such as physics/applied maths etc. Additionally I would question why anyone who was achieving A1s in art, english and Irish, yet barely scraping an honour in science and maths, would be going for science at 3rd level.

I know I'm not covering all scenarios and I know that the one you outlined above could theoretically happen, but in many cases I don't believe that college performance and hard work can neccessarily be predicted in advance through particular Leaving Cert subjects due to the programmes being structured so diifferently.

Trinity have set their requirement for entry to a general science degree as two C3s in science subjects, from which I infer that they consider a student who achieves those grades good enough for them.

Anita Blow

Anita Blow wrote: »

Can't speak for maths, but English is far and away one of the hardest LC subjects.
Paper 2 requires you to know a Shakespearean text essentially off by heart (As you're required to write about 4-5 pages. Any aspect of the play can come up so you need to know it inside out), then you need to study a play, novel and movie and be able to write 5 pages comparing/contrasting them under a certain mode and then need to know at least 4-5 poets in detail.

That's just your personal opinion, not a fact. You found English hard, but it is not a subject that everyone finds hard. I thought it was too easy but I wouldn't go around stating that as fact, because I know that while I found it easy, some people didn't.

Personally I think the English curriculum needs an overhaul. There is a vast number of people at college level who are intelligent and know their subject well, but who can't write a simple essay, or spell properly, or format writing with paragraphs properly. I've seen so many people lose so many marks because they don't have a good grasp of English, their native language, and it's ridiculous. Typos or mistakes are fine, but people who have just never been taught simple grammar are at a huge disadvantage through no fault of their own. It's the fault of the education system.

PhoenixParker

true-or-false wrote: »

That's just your personal opinion, not a fact. You found English hard, but it is not a subject that everyone finds hard. I thought it was too easy but I wouldn't go around stating that as fact, because I know that while I found it easy, some people didn't.

Personally I think the English curriculum needs an overhaul. There is a vast number of people at college level who are intelligent and know their subject well, but who can't write a simple essay, or spell properly, or format writing with paragraphs properly. I've seen so many people lose so many marks because they don't have a good grasp of English, their native language, and it's ridiculous. Typos or mistakes are fine, but people who have just never been taught simple grammar are at a huge disadvantage through no fault of their own. It's the fault of the education system.

I'd be of the opinion that what needs overhauling in that case is the primary school curriculum rather than the Leaving Cert.

That stuff needs to be beaten into kids at a young age, well before Leaving Cert. I remember struggling with the basics of French and German because I had only the vaguest idea of grammar rules. The teacher thought that explaining what tense something was, was enough. At the Leaving Cert stage it needs to be reinforced, but really it's more important than that.

The more I think about it, the more I think a tweak in the direction of the international Baccaulaureat is what's needed.

http://www.ibo.org/diploma/curriculum/

PhoenixParker

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I'd be of the opinion that what needs overhauling in that case is the primary school curriculum rather than the Leaving Cert.

That stuff needs to be beaten into kids at a young age, well before Leaving Cert.

Actually yes, I totally agree with you that would be an even better change.

I still do think that the development of language use should be involved in English though. There seems to be a lack of focus on writing skills and vocabulary. These skills can be learned as a by-product of reading, but when I did the leaving cert the reading centred on Shakespearean and poetry quotes and the only books we read used very simple language. It's a real pity that the current English course rarely accomplishes any sort of improvement in the students' actual English use.

TriciaDelicia

It needs a complete overhaul... secondary school curriculum inparticular the Leaving Cert in no way prepares you for college life and assignments! Presentations and assignments are an integral part of college courses not only yearly exams

iguana

I never found the leaving cert system particularly stressful because I was able to sail through school until the end, knuckle down for a few days and do the exams. I would have hated to have a system of continuous assessment as I'd have had to put in more effort throughout 5th and 6th year.

However I think it badly needs an overhaul, not just the exams but the subjects themselves. Many subjects are simplified to the point of inaccuracy or are taught in such isolation that the students rarely actually understand the point of what they are learning. Students learn to scrape through exams without actually being educated, for example most people I know got an honour in the honours exam of the language they studied yet have next to no ability to speak it. It's a massive waste of time which should be being spent developing true learning and understanding.

sunflower27

iguana wrote: »

I never found the leaving cert system particularly stressful because I was able to sail through school until the end, knuckle down for a few days and do the exams. I would have hated to have a system of continuous assessment as I'd have had to put in more effort throughout 5th and 6th year.

You would be very much in the minority. From my own experience of that time (for me it was my HSC and final exams were worth 50%), it was huge stress to get the points necessary to get into my college of choice. I had my heart set on a particular course and college.

The stress was immense. I remember not being able to sleep the night before and being a nervous wreck.

I really don't like the final exams being worth so much, but it has been that way so long I don't see it changing.

Scanlas The 2nd

Naomi00 wrote: »

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Ok then let's make things fair by giving easier exams to the less intelligent students. How about that?

The Leaving cert does not measure intelligence at all. It doesn't even measure how good you are at a certain subject, especially English.

That's what IQ tests etc are for, it's not supposed to measure intelligence. It's supposed to give people the opportunity to learn and provide a fair as reasonable method of giving people the opportunity to put in the hard work to get university places.

iguana

sunflower27 wrote: »

You would be very much in the minority. From my own experience of that time (for me it was my HSC and final exams were worth 50%), it was huge stress to get the points necessary to get into my college of choice. I had my heart set on a particular course and college.

The stress was immense. I remember not being able to sleep the night before and being a nervous wreck.

I really don't like the final exams being worth so much, but it has been that way so long I don't see it changing.

I know I'm in the minority which is part of the reason why it should change. But there really needs to be a change to ensure the students genuinely understand the subjects they are studying and don't just learn to do exams.

sunflower27

iguana wrote: »

I know I'm in the minority which is part of the reason why it should change. But there really needs to be a change to ensure the students genuinely understand the subjects they are studying and don't just learn to do exams.

I studied English, maths, economics, biology, modern history and general studies. All I wanted was the points to get into journalism. I did not give a hoot about economics, for instance, and I imagine most students feel the same. Get the points, get into the course you want and forget the rest.

Duggys Housemate

sunflower27 wrote: »

I studied English, maths, economics, biology, modern history and general studies. All I wanted was the points to get into journalism. I did not give a hoot about economics, for instance, and I imagine most students feel the same. Get the points, get into the course you want and forget the rest.

And you think none of those subjects would help a journalist? Really? What ever about the computer guys whining about history - which is wrong anyway, as education is not just functional - surely a journalist who may get an opinion column some day, would not be disadvantaged by actually knowing stuff. Although, that said, most opinion writers probably have a degree in something else.

This thread is depressing, Ireland is producing a generation of narrow focussed technocrats, despite the Leaving Cert being a general type of exam. Of course journalism used to be a trade, get an arts degree and learn on the job, it still is in the UK for most cases.

opinion guy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

And you think none of those subjects would help a journalist? Really? What ever about the computer guys whining about history - which is wrong anyway, as education is not just functional - surely a journalist who may get an opinion column some day, would not be disadvantaged by actually knowing stuff. Although, that said, most opinion writers probably have a degree in something else.

This thread is depressing, Ireland is producing a generation of narrow focussed technocrats, despite the Leaving Cert being a general type of exam. Of course journalism used to be a trade, get an arts degree and learn on the job, it still is in the UK for most cases.

Its funny I'm reading Bad Science by Ben Goldacre at the moment and he writes a chapter on the media that I'm just starting where he blames 'humanities' grads for misreporting science and damading public understanding of the topic

sunflower27

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

And you think none of those subjects would help a journalist? Really? What ever about the computer guys whining about history - which is wrong anyway, as education is not just functional - surely a journalist who may get an opinion column some day, would not be disadvantaged by actually knowing stuff. Although, that said, most opinion writers probably have a degree in something else.

This thread is depressing, Ireland is producing a generation of narrow focussed technocrats, despite the Leaving Cert being a general type of exam. Of course journalism used to be a trade, get an arts degree and learn on the job, it still is in the UK for most cases.

Calm down, I never said the subjects were useless, jut that in some cases it is a case or learning and regurgitating to get the points for a college course.

And a journalist that gets a coulmn 'one day' would have a lot more knowledge I would hope than leaving cert maths/biology, etc.

PrincessLola

Its not perfect but its better than the UK system, ay least we don't let our students drop Maths and languages.

opinion guy

PrincessLola wrote: »

Its not perfect but its better than the UK system

This seems to be the one thing almost everyone agrees on!

Owen_S

FloatingVoter wrote: »

They need engineers in France. You may drop out of college and write romantic fiction in the form of rhyming couplets.
As for the Irish, no idea why you'd need that.

They need a lot more engineers in China, but not many schools are teaching that over French.

PrincessLola wrote: »

Its not perfect but its better than the UK system, ay least we don't let our students drop Maths and languages.

But we force them to keep subjects which may be of no apparent use. I love Irish, but people shouldn't be forced to do it for the Leaving Cert when that time could be spent on something more important to their chosen career path.

opinion guy

Owen_S wrote: »

But we force them to keep subjects which may be of no apparent use. I love Irish, but people shouldn't be forced to do it for the Leaving Cert when that time could be spent on something more important to their chosen career path.

Agreed we shouldn't force people to learn Irish, but we should force them to keep up a language on top of English

PrincessLola

Owen_S wrote: »

But we force them to keep subjects which may be of no apparent use. I love Irish, but people shouldn't be forced to do it for the Leaving Cert when that time could be spent on something more important to their chosen career path.

Yeah, I agree with that. But we can't make Irish an option because "cultural heritage" and all that sh*te

Duggys Housemate

sunflower27 wrote: »

Calm down, I never said the subjects were useless, jut that in some cases it is a case or learning and regurgitating to get the points for a college course.

And a journalist that gets a coulmn 'one day' would have a lot more knowledge I would hope than leaving cert maths/biology, etc.

I'd be very fcuking surprised if they picked up more maths than honours leaving cert during their lives, or could do the biology exam - and the regurgitation argument rears it's head again. Why would people do calculus, or statistics later in life, if they hated it in school?

Fact is if you are not interested in a wide range of subjects you are not going to be a good journalist. What do those courses teach anyway? A lot of journalists just pick it up... The main thing a journalist should have is a rounded education, so they can discuss economics, climate change, history, politics, a new book etc. The leaving cert subjects you mentioned would be, in my opinion, more important than a functional technical journalism course.

sunflower27

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I'd be very fcuking surprised if they picked up more maths than honours leaving cert during their lives, or could do the biology exam - and the regurgitation argument rears it's head again. Why would people do calculus, or statistics later in life, if they hated it in school?

Fact is if you are not interested in a wide range of subjects you are not going to be a good journalist. What do those courses teach anyway? A lot of journalists just pick it up... The main thing a journalist should have is a rounded education, so they can discuss economics, climate change, history, politics, a new book etc. The leaving cert subjects you mentioned would be, in my opinion, more important than a functional technical journalism course.

I disagree, 100%.

Having worked in the publishing industry for over 20 years, I can tell you now that what I studied at Leaving Cert level had very little impact on my career.

My degree and my work experience, most definitely. Leaving cert level subjects. Nope.

Duggys Housemate

sunflower27 wrote: »

I disagree, 100%.

Having worked in the publishing industry for over 20 years, I can tell you now that what I studied at Leaving Cert level had very little impact on my career.

My degree and my work experience, most definitely. Leaving cert level subjects. Nope.

So nothing in Economics, Maths, English, Science, General studies - whatever that was helped? That might explain some Irish journalism.

I do engineering, and obviously history and English doesn't help in my career, it has helped me in my life, enjoy travelling, reading, being better at dinner parties etc. However, the general thrust of the Leaving Cert, the general education, is exactly supposed to benefit you as a person, not just as a worker.

sunflower27

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

So nothing in Economics, Maths, English, Science, General studies - whatever that was helped? That might explain some Irish journalism.

I do engineering, and obviously history and English doesn't help in my career, it has helped me in my life, enjoy travelling, reading, being better at dinner parties etc. However, the general thrust of the Leaving Cert, the general education, is exactly supposed to benefit you as a person, not just as a worker.

Don't get catty

We are not going to agree and I am not prepared to keep labouring my point.:)

opinion guy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I do engineering, and obviously history and English doesn't help in my career,

Are you sure about that ? Surely you write technical reports etc. No doubt it helps there.

sunflower27 wrote: »

Don't get catty

We are not going to agree and I am not prepared to keep labouring my point.:)

Read Bad Science by Ben Goldacre (specifically chapter 12 'How the media promote the public misunderstanding of science')

iguana

sunflower27 wrote: »

I studied English, maths, economics, biology, modern history and general studies. All I wanted was the points to get into journalism. I did not give a hoot about economics, for instance, and I imagine most students feel the same. Get the points, get into the course you want and forget the rest.

I studied journalism and was required to do a year long economics module as part of that course. Unless you had your heart set on writing as a journalist in a very narrow field, like fashion or motoring,* I can't see how anyone who wants a serious career in that profession can get by without a decent understanding of economics. Otherwise you end up with the type of ill-educated nonsense that litters the newspapers in this country urging smart-ballsy guys to get out and buy property while a crash was clearly under way. As Duggy's Housemate says a journalist needs to have a wide interest and understanding of numerous subjects if they are to be good at their job.


*Even in a narrow field you might find that it's necessary knowledge on occasion.

laoch na mona

projects and orals should be done in 5th year and english needs to be marked differently my teacher showed us an a standard essay and it consisted of attaching an adverb or adjective to every word

opinion guy

opinion guy wrote: »

Read Bad Science by Ben Goldacre

Don't do it!!!

I really have to say, with regards to the current line of conversation, that I'm shocked that people don't think they've carried anything from school into their lives!

Is it all directly usable? No.
Is it worth learning things sometimes just for the sake of broadening your knowledge base? Of course!

Even though my course includes statistics, I'll still barely ever have to use maths because programs like Excel will do it for me. It's unlikely I'll ever use the LC course for my chosen degree. But it was still a worthwhile subject and an important part of my personal development educationally.

iguana

sunflower27 wrote: »

Leaving cert level subjects. Nope.

And you don't think this is a massive problem? It's a complete waste of time and resources to make our children spend 5/6 years studying to pass exams but not receiving an actual education in those years.

rusty_racer94

Lets get it done and over with in the next couple of weeks.
Leaving cert, come at me bro!!

opinion guy

true-or-false wrote: »

Don't do it!!!

Wha ? Care to elaborate.

sunflower27

iguana wrote: »

I studied journalism and was required to do a year long economics module as part of that course. Unless you had your heart set on writing as a journalist in a very narrow field, like fashion or motoring,* I can't see how anyone who wants a serious career in that profession can get by without a decent understanding of economics. Otherwise you end up with the type of ill-educated nonsense that litters the newspapers in this country urging smart-ballsy guys to get out and buy property while a crash was clearly under way. As Duggy's Housemate says a journalist needs to have a wide interest and understanding of numerous subjects if they are to be good at their job.


*Even in a narrow field you might find that it's necessary knowledge on occasion.

I have had a successful career, spanning several continents, but it wasn't down to what subjects I chose to do for my final exams in secondary school.

I am not saying they had no impact - of course they did - but overall, no.

Having a good grasp of subjects of course is a benefit, I am not denying that, but I really don't believe the subjects I did were a huge help. My degree and my work experience is what helped me.

sunflower27

iguana wrote: »

And you don't think this is a massive problem? It's a complete waste of time and resources to make our children spend 5/6 years studying to pass exams but not receiving an actual education in those years.

I am not speaking for every Irish child that does the Leaving Cert, just to make that clear.

iguana

sunflower27 wrote: »

I am not speaking for every Irish child that does the Leaving Cert, just to make that clear.

I know you aren't but your experience is relatively common. I found myself having to unlearn so much crap I'd learned in school as my understanding of so many subjects was flawed. And these are all subjects I did really well in. It was shocking to find out how much I thought I knew was utter balls and how much I had come to loath subjects that I previously and subsequently loved.

steddyeddy

Well the leaving cert being stressful isnt my biggest problem. I do think its stressful but considering how stressful it is you get very little education out of it. The curriculum for the science subjects is woefull. Biology is an absolute waste and in no way prepares students for any biological subject.

I think the current system prepares people for exams not provide an understanding of those subjects. Also the amount of subjects could be cut back a bit. Ill agree with sunflower by saying very little of my school education helped me in university or my career. In fact I think it held me back at the start.

imelle

hmmm i think the leaving cert system is adequate and probably the fairest way it can be but what i think is unfair is how certain people get courses for less points than others because their parents are unemployed, they have diabetes or are from the gaeltacht or something like that. i know i might sound cruel but try repeating because you're 20 points short for a course and there are people on the course with less points than you..

steddyeddy

imelle wrote: »

hmmm i think the leaving cert system is adequate and probably the fairest way it can be but what i think is unfair is how certain people get courses for less points than others because there parents are unemployed, they have diabetes or are from the gaeltacht or something like that. i know i might sound cruel but try repeating because you're 20 points short for a course and there's people on the course with less points than you..

Putting this nicely I think your coming from a position of ignorance there.

imelle

steddyeddy wrote: »

Putting this nicely I think your coming from a position of ignorance there.

it's based on the fact that they can't afford grinds but one of my parrents is in work but can't afford grinds for me either. i was just saying the system is meant to be based on the higher points get the course and that it's not really fair, that's all.

sorry if i offended anyone but it is just frustrating at times..

steddyeddy

imelle wrote: »

it's based on the fact that they can't afford grinds but one of my parrents is in work but can't afford grinds for me either. i was just saying the system is meant to be based on the higher points get the course and that it's not really fair, that's all.

sorry if i offended anyone but it is just frustrating at times..

Your not offending me. I understand its frustrating. What subjects are you finding most difficult if you dont mind me asking?

Edit: sorry to be so nosy I was going to suggest going to vincent de paul I know for a fact they have helped students get grinds.

bobbytables

I can't speak for everyone else, but 90% of my L.C. comprised of material that became completely redundant the moment I finished the exams. Despite that fact, it was still the sole benchmark that nearly prevented me from pursuing a 3rd level qualification in my desired field. Only when I started college I realized my academic potential (still 17). I became a straight A student & gained confidence for the first time. I got my under/post grad degrees & enjoyed every minute of it. A stark contrast to my academic endeavours prior to that.

The funny thing is, I am a qualified & experienced Software Engineer, I have done the commercialization R&D / IP / Patents / 4th level high tech research thing. In many regards I & many others like me are a walking cliche when it comes to the sort of candidates that are in demand in Ireland today. Look at the industries that are thriving & then look at how much focus is given to relevant subject matter in the L.C.

I can only speak for IT, but this notion that a quality education in this area can wait until a person is of college going age is part of the problem.

I am extremely lucky to be in this position but the Leaving Cert only stood to hinder my progress as opposed to contribute in any real way.

CruelCoin

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

What the education system to secondary level is not deigned to do is to provide you with cheap trained labour.

More's the pity.

The current economic climate offers no room for anyone without experience and the ability to hit the ground running to find work, let alone keep it.

The current education system is fine for boom-time, when every tom dick and harry could find work, but has shown itself to be sorely lacking during the downtimes, when employers can be choosers, and those freshly leaving the current system are rightly shown as badly lacking in any of the skills to enable them to compete for jobs.

opinion guy

CruelCoin wrote: »

More's the pity.

The current economic climate offers no room for anyone without experience and the ability to hit the ground running to find work, let alone keep it.

The current education system is fine for boom-time, when every tom dick and harry could find work, but has shown itself to be sorely lacking during the downtimes, when employers can be choosers, and those freshly leaving the current system are rightly shown as badly lacking in any of the skills to enable them to compete for jobs.

You are very aptly named.