Is the leaving cert system adequate

CruelCoin

opinion guy wrote: »

You are very aptly named.

Meh, what goes around comes around.

Employees squeezed us during boom-time. We were forced to take on anything with two legs and two arms and pay through the nose for it.

Recessionary times even the scales a little.

p.s: i am secretly a massive cuddle-bear, i pwomise!

laoch na mona

imelle wrote: »

hmmm i think the leaving cert system is adequate and probably the fairest way it can be but what i think is unfair is how certain people get courses for less points than others because their parents are unemployed, they have diabetes or are from the gaeltacht or something like that. i know i might sound cruel but try repeating because you're 20 points short for a course and there are people on the course with less points than you..

HEAR is to compensate students who can't afford grinds and to cancel out the advantage of private schools

CruelCoin

laoch na mona wrote: »

HEAR is to compensate students who can't afford grinds and to cancel out the advantage of private schools

Which works to cancel out the advantage of kids duly earned by those parents who work hard enough to send their kids to these private schools.

GaryIrv93

The lack of education or what you've ''learnt'' in school after 14 years of it often gives me the impression that school is there and is compulsory simply to keep young people off the streets, not to give you an education. Education is suppossed to be what stays with with you for the rest of you life, wheras the only things most of us hold onto after leaving school are the bare basics of English and Maths, and that's all what's needed. Seems like a huge waste of time and effort spending 14 years in there learning facts and figures (of very little to no relevance to anyone) only to leave with the most basic stuff. All you leave with is a report stating that you survived 14 years of hell. Some education.

New, relevant subjects need to be brought in, especially more IT learning, with less emphasis on the traditional subjects such as Irish which are of very little use to anyone. Bring in something such as 'Driving Skills' - bringing in car simulators to schools showing students how to drive safely at a young age. Teach them also about engines, cars, computers, DIY skills, how to pay bills, taxes, how to mangage money responsibly, etc and more time outdoors to give them more engagement with the outside world. Useful subjects urgently need to be brought in now, not later. Students should have more flexible choices on subjects and be allowed to choose those that suit their personalities. No harm in giving them a bit more freedom in their own education.

Student's grades in my opinion should be based on not by exams, but by continuous assessment. Another alternative to exams or CA could be to base grades on punctuality, work quality, behavior, attendance, ability to follow instructions, how they treat others, how well they can work with and engage with others etc etc.

Rant over.

opinion guy

CruelCoin wrote: »

Which works to cancel out the advantage of kids duly earned by those parents who work hard enough to send their kids to these private schools.

Good.
We are supposed to have an equal education system.

steddyeddy

CruelCoin wrote: »

Which works to cancel out the advantage of kids duly earned by those parents who work hard enough to send their kids to these private schools.

The point about educating children is that they have an equal education. By offering one child grinds and not another your giving one an advantage over the other. This means that the child with the advantage will most likely get into college not the child who is necessarily best for the course. Of course the point often overlooked is that children deserve and equal education because there is no fair way to give one a better education over another based on what his or her parents did irespective of the child.

steddyeddy

bobbytables wrote: »

I can't speak for everyone else, but 90% of my L.C. comprised of material that became completely redundant the moment I finished the exams. Despite that fact, it was still the sole benchmark that nearly prevented me from pursuing a 3rd level qualification in my desired field. Only when I started college I realized my academic potential (still 17). I became a straight A student & gained confidence for the first time. I got my under/post grad degrees & enjoyed every minute of it. A stark contrast to my academic endeavours prior to that.

The funny thing is, I am a qualified & experienced Software Engineer, I have done the commercialization R&D / IP / Patents / 4th level high tech research thing. In many regards I & many others like me are a walking cliche when it comes to the sort of candidates that are in demand in Ireland today. Look at the industries that are thriving & then look at how much focus is given to relevant subject matter in the L.C.

I can only speak for IT, but this notion that a quality education in this area can wait until a person is of college going age is part of the problem.

I am extremely lucky to be in this position but the Leaving Cert only stood to hinder my progress as opposed to contribute in any real way.

Fair play on what you have achieved. Im exactly the same. Im involved in a research masters now and I didnt know I was an academic until I went to college. I always loved the sciences in school and I always was asking questions to try and further my understand but the teachers didnt want to answer anything outside of the typical rote learning system which is ironic because it would have furthered my understanding of the subject.

micheal1995

i am doing the leaving this year and find it depressing that alot of the stuff that is thought is useless. in maths a good understanding of + - * / and trigonometry is needed of course. but i was doing higher maths differentiation and sh*t like that come on i dropped and happy out. budgets/profit/percentage should be thought. also i agree about driving but not simulators it is harder to use them than a car. the 12 lessons is a load of crap too i have been driving on the road since i was 16 (tractor) it should mean something. more IT and i find that if most people learn more by doing than reading about it eg. construction studies make a model roof instead of reading about it

rant over i should look at my higher history

1ZRed

I did it last year and did alright, got all Bs.
Thing is, it is hardly a test of intelligence, just memory. When I was doing it, I thought this is completely overwhelming and a lot of it is useless information (stair na gaeilge comes to mind!!!) so it should be changed a bit at the very least.
But then again with continual assessment, you run the risk of people not taking it seriously all the time and then paying the price of it later when you cop on to yourself - kind of like the junior cert mindset.


Best bet for me is the break it up into two exams in December/January and June maybe.
Mix up the subjects so you do biology,engineering,French etc (secondary subjects) in one go and then break the core subjects (English,Maths and Irish + whatever else) in half.
I'd say finish them off completely but then nobody would do Maths for half the year while you cram for the English exams.

Even this isn't ideal so it's a headache to sort out.

validusername1

It definitely should be changed. The Leaving Cert is a test of memory, not intelligence or how hard-working an individual is at a certain task. It's about memorising information from a 2 year course 7 or 8 subjects.. how is this fair?

The fact that we have no choice but to do the 3 compulsory subjects + 3/4 others is ridiculous. I was forced to choose subjects that I have absolutely no interest in whatsoever, just to meet the minimum requirement of 6. Subjects that I never plan to study again. Subjects that will serve me no purpose whatsoever with the college course that I want to do as they are unrelated, yet, those subjects decide whether I get the college course or not!? It's crazy.

The UK system of choosing just 2/3 subjects that a person actually has an interest in and can work hard at is a much better way of doing it.

Continuous assessment is a must in my opinion. Not only would continuous assessment make people work harder (by making them work throughout the 2 years, for things that will count directly towards their results, rather than spending hours learning things that may not even come up) but it would also give a true test of how hard-working people are, which I think is the real ''entry requirement'' that should be considered to get into college. With continuous assessment, people would be aware that they are being examined all year, thus making them work harder.

With the current Leaving Cert, if I want to do a course in lets say music in a university, chances are I'd need around 400 points. And where do those points come from? Subjects like biology, home economics, etc - subjects that have no relevance whatsoever to the course. So why are they important? There is too much emphasis on points.

I know that I am not the only person who feels like this, clearly. I agree with the letter that girl wrote. People need to start doing something about it. It's too late for some of us, but the current Leaving Cert just cannot go on the way it is. I find it ridiculous to the highest level.

Perhaps the best way to start would be changing the Leaving Cert to 50% coursework/continuous assessment and 50% exams. I find this may be best, as it would suit different people in a fair way. Some people excel at exams, others excel at coursework/continuous assessment. At least doing it 50/50 would give fairness. I know that with myself, I don't test well. But I put my absolute all into an assignment if I am given one and I do really well at them. Subjects like geography and home ec where there are projects that are worth 20% of the final result, that's what I mean by coursework. It's not fair putting pretty much ALL emphasis on exams. This doesn't suit everyone. It doesn't suit everyone's type of learning. I'm aware coursework doesn't either, but like I said, if it's done 50/50 at least it will be fair.

Don't even know why I'm bothering voicing this opinion though to be honest. The government never seem to listen to what the people want anyway.

Scanlas The 2nd

steddyeddy wrote: »

CruelCoin wrote: »

Which works to cancel out the advantage of kids duly earned by those parents who work hard enough to send their kids to these private schools.

The point about educating children is that they have an equal education. By offering one child grinds and not another your giving one an advantage over the other. This means that the child with the advantage will most likely get into college not the child who is necessarily best for the course. Of course the point often overlooked is that children deserve and equal education because there is no fair way to give one a better education over another based on what his or her parents did irespective of the child.

Why do children deserve an equal education, what is your reasoning?

Children all deserve a certain level of education, If parents want to give their kids extra education that's their business, are you saying people don't have the right and freedom to spend their hard earned money on whatever they want?

Scanlas The 2nd

validusername1 wrote: »

It definitely should be changed. The Leaving Cert is a test of memory, not intelligence or how hard-working an individual is at a certain task. It's about memorising information from a 2 year course 7 or 8 subjects.. how is this fair?

The fact that we have no choice but to do the 3 compulsory subjects + 3/4 others is ridiculous. I was forced to choose subjects that I have absolutely no interest in whatsoever, just to meet the minimum requirement of 6. Subjects that I never plan to study again. Subjects that will serve me no purpose whatsoever with the college course that I want to do as they are unrelated, yet, those subjects decide whether I get the college course or not!? It's crazy.

The UK system of choosing just 2/3 subjects that a person actually has an interest in and can work hard at is a much better way of doing it.

Continuous assessment is a must in my opinion. Not only would continuous assessment make people work harder (by making them work throughout the 2 years, for things that will count directly towards their results, rather than spending hours learning things that may not even come up) but it would also give a true test of how hard-working people are, which I think is the real ''entry requirement'' that should be considered to get into college. With continuous assessment, people would be aware that they are being examined all year, thus making them work harder.

With the current Leaving Cert, if I want to do a course in lets say music in a university, chances are I'd need around 400 points. And where do those points come from? Subjects like biology, home economics, etc - subjects that have no relevance whatsoever to the course. So why are they important? There is too much emphasis on points.

I know that I am not the only person who feels like this, clearly. I agree with the letter that girl wrote. People need to start doing something about it. It's too late for some of us, but the current Leaving Cert just cannot go on the way it is. I find it ridiculous to the highest level.

Perhaps the best way to start would be changing the Leaving Cert to 50% coursework/continuous assessment and 50% exams. I find this may be best, as it would suit different people in a fair way. Some people excel at exams, others excel at coursework/continuous assessment. At least doing it 50/50 would give fairness. I know that with myself, I don't test well. But I put my absolute all into an assignment if I am given one and I do really well at them. Subjects like geography and home ec where there are projects that are worth 20% of the final result, that's what I mean by coursework. It's not fair putting pretty much ALL emphasis on exams. This doesn't suit everyone. It doesn't suit everyone's type of learning. I'm aware coursework doesn't either, but like I said, if it's done 50/50 at least it will be fair.

Don't even know why I'm bothering voicing this opinion though to be honest. The government never seem to listen to what the people want anyway.

I would hate continuous assessment, it would be far too stressful for me and is say it would make cheating easier.

The leaving cert does require intelligence to do well, their are questions that come up in maths, applied maths, physics, tech drawing that you can't memories, you need to be good at problem solving and thinking on your feet to solve.

Scanlas The 2nd

1ZRed wrote: »

I did it last year and did alright, got all Bs.
Thing is, it is hardly a test of intelligence, just memory. When I was doing it, I thought this is completely overwhelming and a lot of it is useless information (stair na gaeilge comes to mind!!!) so it should be changed a bit at the very least.
But then again with continual assessment, you run the risk of people not taking it seriously all the time and then paying the price of it later when you cop on to yourself - kind of like the junior cert mindset.


Best bet for me is the break it up into two exams in December/January and June maybe.
Mix up the subjects so you do biology,engineering,French etc (secondary subjects) in one go and then break the core subjects (English,Maths and Irish + whatever else) in half.
I'd say finish them off completely but then nobody would do Maths for half the year while you cram for the English exams.

Even this isn't ideal so it's a headache to sort out.

Loads of subjects test intelligence as well as memory and hard work. The way it should be.

steddyeddy

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Why do children deserve an equal education, what is your reasoning?

Children all deserve a certain level of education, If parents want to give their kids extra education that's their business, are you saying people don't have the right and freedom to spend their hard earned money on whatever they want?

Because equal education in my opinion is a basic human right. Education should only be based on personal merit one child does not deserve more of an education based on what his or her parents did. Its a matter of opinion really and one that Ill be fighting for in the academic world but to change my mind people are going to have to explain why one child deserves a better education than another. Not why his parents can afford more ect but why one child deserves a better education.

steddyeddy

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I would hate continuous assessment, it would be far too stressful for me and is say it would make cheating easier.

The leaving cert does require intelligence to do well, their are questions that come up in maths, applied maths, physics, tech drawing that you can't memories, you need to be good at problem solving and thinking on your feet to solve.

Well the syllabus for all science should encourage problem solving but they dont. As you say the leaving cert is not about intelligence and unfortunatly its not sending the best and brightest into the right courses.

Jester252

steddyeddy wrote: »

Because equal education in my opinion is a basic human right. Education should only be based on personal merit one child does not deserve more of an education based on what his or her parents did. Its a matter of opinion really and one that Ill be fighting for in the academic world but to change my mind people are going to have to explain why one child deserves a better education than another. Not why his parents can afford more ect but why one child deserves a better education.

Equal education is not a basic right. What is a basic right is is the minimum level of education a person receives. In Ireland all children attend school until they are 16 that is the law so the standard level is the all children have to receives is the JC.
A system of equal education, while been beneficial to poorer people, would in fact hold back many kids. If you are talking about private schools just a note more money doesn't equal a better education.

steddyeddy

Jester252 wrote: »

Equal education is not a basic right. What is a basic right is is the minimum level of education a person receives. In Ireland all children attend school until they are 16 that is the law so the standard level is the all children have to receives is the JC.
A system of equal education, while been beneficial to poorer people, would in fact hold back many kids. If you are talking about private schools just a note more money doesn't equal a better education.

Money defiantly doesnt equal better education. Every child should have the same choice of subjects irrespective of background ect. I dont see how that could hold back anyone?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Loads of subjects test intelligence as well as memory and hard work. The way it should be.

No, not the way it should be. The way it should be is to test creativity and lateral thinking. Even the subjects you list are just a case of learning formulae and theorm and basic application.

The whole point of the leaving cert is an entrace examination to college, and in that it succeeds, but I would question the very goal as it assumes every student wants to go on to third level, and it assumes that it encourages indenpendent thought and the ability to form and present a philosophical opinion.

The whole 2-year course is not an "education" - it is a long-winded and unnessecailry stressful test of certain credentials that are over-prioritised and exclusivist.

Most certainly NOT how it should be.

steddyeddy

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

No, not the way it should be. The way it should be is to test creativity and lateral thinking. Even the subjects you list are just a case of learning formulae and theorm and basic application.

The whole point of the leaving cert is an entrace examination to college, and in that it succeeds, but I would question the very goal as it assumes every student wants to go on to third level, and it assumes that it encourages indenpendent thought and the ability to form and present a philosophical opinion.

The whole 2-year course is not an "education" - it is a long-winded and unnessecailry stressful test of certain credentials that are over-prioritised and exclusivist.

Most certainly NOT how it should be.

Bingo! In regards getting people into college it certainly gets people in but it doesnt prepare them for college in the slightest for certain degree courses. Independent thinking is needed for college and the leaving doesnt supply that in its current state.

Jester252

steddyeddy wrote: »

Money defiantly doesnt equal better education. Every child should have the same choice of subjects irrespective of background ect. I dont see how that could hold back anyone?

If we have every child on a equal education not a equal level some subject won't be done. Under this system would a child be able to spend money to learn outside of school hours

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jester252 wrote: »

If we have every child on a equal education not a equal level some subject won't be done. Under this system would a child be able to spend money to learn outside of school hours

Absolutely. But then he/she doesn't do an exam in it.

GaryIrv93

There is too much emphasis on points.

What's annoying as well about our education system is that there isin't any emphasis on sports. PE may be there as a pastime subject, but it would be handy if students wishing to apply to a sports related college course could replace another exam they don't see relevant, such as Irish with a PE exam and earn some points in it. It would stand out a lot on an application to a sports-science course.

Perhaps the best way to start would be changing the Leaving Cert to 50% coursework/continuous assessment and 50% exams. I find this may be best, as it would suit different people in a fair way. Some people excel at exams, others excel at coursework/continuous assessment. At least doing it 50/50 would give fairness. I know that with myself, I don't test well. But I put my absolute all into an assignment if I am given one and I do really well at them. Subjects like geography and home ec where there are projects that are worth 20% of the final result, that's what I mean by coursework. It's not fair putting pretty much ALL emphasis on exams. This doesn't suit everyone. It doesn't suit everyone's type of learning. I'm aware coursework doesn't either, but like I said, if it's done 50/50 at least it will be fair.

Very good idea. Although it would probably be fairer if students could decide whether they want to base all their grades on continuous assessment if they wish, or with exams if they wish, because as said, not every student is suited for exams. I'm similar to yourself in that case - I prefer to actively put my effort into completing well written and well presented projects, rather than sit and stare at a textbook for hours on end in the hope that the information I'm taking in comes up in the exam.

What you said there about 50/50 for each subject, it is a good idea in a way, however I think that would put even more stress on the student - having to both complete many projects and study for exams at the same time. Just before the mocks, my Geography teacher had tasked us with numerous field study drafts in preparation for the official one, which resulted in me having sleepless nights doing my drafts which all took over a day to finish and then more studying stress for the upcoming exams. I never want to go through that again. The stress with having exams can't even compare to the stress from having to do both projects and exams at the same time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Sorry for posting on an old thread first of all.

I was thinking about the LC results, CAO offers and the system a good bit after getting the results back this year. I've never liked the system I've got to admit, and many people see it as unfair, I did too, but I noticed that the vast majority of friends and (seemingly) most LC posters here on boards and also most of the country from what I saw did actually get their first choices, or at least got some choice. So I was sort of thinking is it really as unfair as people say? My results this year weren't enough for any of my choices, off course I was disapointed but I can't really blame the system for that. It was because I didn't study enough. Had I worked for just a few weeks more than I did, which I easily could have done, I'd have got what I wanted, definitley. Instead I'm doing a PLC at the moment which I absolutely love.

I honestly can only blame myself for not doing enough work for the leaving, and not the system itself. Looking back on it, it wasn't that bad as I thought. I had a whole year to study which I wasted by not studying enough - again, completely my own fault, not my school's, not the system's or anyone else's. The way I see it now, students like myself who didn't put in the work can't blame the system, call it unfair or claim they were screwed over by it when it was them who didn't work enough.

Back to unfairness, it could certainly be called unfair any day for a student who worked their hole off for the LC, did as much as they possibly could and lost out on a college place due to random selection for example, or any other factor(s) that were out of their control. So again, is the system really as unfair as many people claim, or does it just a simple matter of putting in effort and study (which we all can) that determines whether a student gets a college place or not? Again, from what I saw, most students who I know got their choices because they got the points because they put in the effort. Sorry for the long post.

Most of the criticism of the thing is that it's inadequate, not unfair. You've fallen into the trap of assuming that the whole aim is to get students into college as opposed to education.

GaryIrv93

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Most of the criticism of the thing is that it's inadequate, not unfair. You've fallen into the trap of assuming that the whole aim is to get students into college as opposed to education.

Whether it's all about education or not wet through my mind as well, but you're right. Apologies for that. EDIT: I'll delete it from here post it in this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056665493