Is the leaving cert system adequate

Duggys Housemate

sunflower27 wrote: »

I disagree, 100%.

Having worked in the publishing industry for over 20 years, I can tell you now that what I studied at Leaving Cert level had very little impact on my career.

My degree and my work experience, most definitely. Leaving cert level subjects. Nope.

So nothing in Economics, Maths, English, Science, General studies - whatever that was helped? That might explain some Irish journalism.

I do engineering, and obviously history and English doesn't help in my career, it has helped me in my life, enjoy travelling, reading, being better at dinner parties etc. However, the general thrust of the Leaving Cert, the general education, is exactly supposed to benefit you as a person, not just as a worker.

sunflower27

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

So nothing in Economics, Maths, English, Science, General studies - whatever that was helped? That might explain some Irish journalism.

I do engineering, and obviously history and English doesn't help in my career, it has helped me in my life, enjoy travelling, reading, being better at dinner parties etc. However, the general thrust of the Leaving Cert, the general education, is exactly supposed to benefit you as a person, not just as a worker.

Don't get catty

We are not going to agree and I am not prepared to keep labouring my point.:)

opinion guy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I do engineering, and obviously history and English doesn't help in my career,

Are you sure about that ? Surely you write technical reports etc. No doubt it helps there.

sunflower27 wrote: »

Don't get catty

We are not going to agree and I am not prepared to keep labouring my point.:)

Read Bad Science by Ben Goldacre (specifically chapter 12 'How the media promote the public misunderstanding of science')

iguana

sunflower27 wrote: »

I studied English, maths, economics, biology, modern history and general studies. All I wanted was the points to get into journalism. I did not give a hoot about economics, for instance, and I imagine most students feel the same. Get the points, get into the course you want and forget the rest.

I studied journalism and was required to do a year long economics module as part of that course. Unless you had your heart set on writing as a journalist in a very narrow field, like fashion or motoring,* I can't see how anyone who wants a serious career in that profession can get by without a decent understanding of economics. Otherwise you end up with the type of ill-educated nonsense that litters the newspapers in this country urging smart-ballsy guys to get out and buy property while a crash was clearly under way. As Duggy's Housemate says a journalist needs to have a wide interest and understanding of numerous subjects if they are to be good at their job.


*Even in a narrow field you might find that it's necessary knowledge on occasion.

laoch na mona

projects and orals should be done in 5th year and english needs to be marked differently my teacher showed us an a standard essay and it consisted of attaching an adverb or adjective to every word

opinion guy

opinion guy wrote: »

Read Bad Science by Ben Goldacre

Don't do it!!!

I really have to say, with regards to the current line of conversation, that I'm shocked that people don't think they've carried anything from school into their lives!

Is it all directly usable? No.
Is it worth learning things sometimes just for the sake of broadening your knowledge base? Of course!

Even though my course includes statistics, I'll still barely ever have to use maths because programs like Excel will do it for me. It's unlikely I'll ever use the LC course for my chosen degree. But it was still a worthwhile subject and an important part of my personal development educationally.

iguana

sunflower27 wrote: »

Leaving cert level subjects. Nope.

And you don't think this is a massive problem? It's a complete waste of time and resources to make our children spend 5/6 years studying to pass exams but not receiving an actual education in those years.

rusty_racer94

Lets get it done and over with in the next couple of weeks.
Leaving cert, come at me bro!!

opinion guy

true-or-false wrote: »

Don't do it!!!

Wha ? Care to elaborate.

sunflower27

iguana wrote: »

I studied journalism and was required to do a year long economics module as part of that course. Unless you had your heart set on writing as a journalist in a very narrow field, like fashion or motoring,* I can't see how anyone who wants a serious career in that profession can get by without a decent understanding of economics. Otherwise you end up with the type of ill-educated nonsense that litters the newspapers in this country urging smart-ballsy guys to get out and buy property while a crash was clearly under way. As Duggy's Housemate says a journalist needs to have a wide interest and understanding of numerous subjects if they are to be good at their job.


*Even in a narrow field you might find that it's necessary knowledge on occasion.

I have had a successful career, spanning several continents, but it wasn't down to what subjects I chose to do for my final exams in secondary school.

I am not saying they had no impact - of course they did - but overall, no.

Having a good grasp of subjects of course is a benefit, I am not denying that, but I really don't believe the subjects I did were a huge help. My degree and my work experience is what helped me.

sunflower27

iguana wrote: »

And you don't think this is a massive problem? It's a complete waste of time and resources to make our children spend 5/6 years studying to pass exams but not receiving an actual education in those years.

I am not speaking for every Irish child that does the Leaving Cert, just to make that clear.

iguana

sunflower27 wrote: »

I am not speaking for every Irish child that does the Leaving Cert, just to make that clear.

I know you aren't but your experience is relatively common. I found myself having to unlearn so much crap I'd learned in school as my understanding of so many subjects was flawed. And these are all subjects I did really well in. It was shocking to find out how much I thought I knew was utter balls and how much I had come to loath subjects that I previously and subsequently loved.

steddyeddy

Well the leaving cert being stressful isnt my biggest problem. I do think its stressful but considering how stressful it is you get very little education out of it. The curriculum for the science subjects is woefull. Biology is an absolute waste and in no way prepares students for any biological subject.

I think the current system prepares people for exams not provide an understanding of those subjects. Also the amount of subjects could be cut back a bit. Ill agree with sunflower by saying very little of my school education helped me in university or my career. In fact I think it held me back at the start.

imelle

hmmm i think the leaving cert system is adequate and probably the fairest way it can be but what i think is unfair is how certain people get courses for less points than others because their parents are unemployed, they have diabetes or are from the gaeltacht or something like that. i know i might sound cruel but try repeating because you're 20 points short for a course and there are people on the course with less points than you..

steddyeddy

imelle wrote: »

hmmm i think the leaving cert system is adequate and probably the fairest way it can be but what i think is unfair is how certain people get courses for less points than others because there parents are unemployed, they have diabetes or are from the gaeltacht or something like that. i know i might sound cruel but try repeating because you're 20 points short for a course and there's people on the course with less points than you..

Putting this nicely I think your coming from a position of ignorance there.

imelle

steddyeddy wrote: »

Putting this nicely I think your coming from a position of ignorance there.

it's based on the fact that they can't afford grinds but one of my parrents is in work but can't afford grinds for me either. i was just saying the system is meant to be based on the higher points get the course and that it's not really fair, that's all.

sorry if i offended anyone but it is just frustrating at times..

steddyeddy

imelle wrote: »

it's based on the fact that they can't afford grinds but one of my parrents is in work but can't afford grinds for me either. i was just saying the system is meant to be based on the higher points get the course and that it's not really fair, that's all.

sorry if i offended anyone but it is just frustrating at times..

Your not offending me. I understand its frustrating. What subjects are you finding most difficult if you dont mind me asking?

Edit: sorry to be so nosy I was going to suggest going to vincent de paul I know for a fact they have helped students get grinds.

bobbytables

I can't speak for everyone else, but 90% of my L.C. comprised of material that became completely redundant the moment I finished the exams. Despite that fact, it was still the sole benchmark that nearly prevented me from pursuing a 3rd level qualification in my desired field. Only when I started college I realized my academic potential (still 17). I became a straight A student & gained confidence for the first time. I got my under/post grad degrees & enjoyed every minute of it. A stark contrast to my academic endeavours prior to that.

The funny thing is, I am a qualified & experienced Software Engineer, I have done the commercialization R&D / IP / Patents / 4th level high tech research thing. In many regards I & many others like me are a walking cliche when it comes to the sort of candidates that are in demand in Ireland today. Look at the industries that are thriving & then look at how much focus is given to relevant subject matter in the L.C.

I can only speak for IT, but this notion that a quality education in this area can wait until a person is of college going age is part of the problem.

I am extremely lucky to be in this position but the Leaving Cert only stood to hinder my progress as opposed to contribute in any real way.

CruelCoin

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

What the education system to secondary level is not deigned to do is to provide you with cheap trained labour.

More's the pity.

The current economic climate offers no room for anyone without experience and the ability to hit the ground running to find work, let alone keep it.

The current education system is fine for boom-time, when every tom dick and harry could find work, but has shown itself to be sorely lacking during the downtimes, when employers can be choosers, and those freshly leaving the current system are rightly shown as badly lacking in any of the skills to enable them to compete for jobs.

opinion guy

CruelCoin wrote: »

More's the pity.

The current economic climate offers no room for anyone without experience and the ability to hit the ground running to find work, let alone keep it.

The current education system is fine for boom-time, when every tom dick and harry could find work, but has shown itself to be sorely lacking during the downtimes, when employers can be choosers, and those freshly leaving the current system are rightly shown as badly lacking in any of the skills to enable them to compete for jobs.

You are very aptly named.

CruelCoin

opinion guy wrote: »

You are very aptly named.

Meh, what goes around comes around.

Employees squeezed us during boom-time. We were forced to take on anything with two legs and two arms and pay through the nose for it.

Recessionary times even the scales a little.

p.s: i am secretly a massive cuddle-bear, i pwomise!

laoch na mona

imelle wrote: »

hmmm i think the leaving cert system is adequate and probably the fairest way it can be but what i think is unfair is how certain people get courses for less points than others because their parents are unemployed, they have diabetes or are from the gaeltacht or something like that. i know i might sound cruel but try repeating because you're 20 points short for a course and there are people on the course with less points than you..

HEAR is to compensate students who can't afford grinds and to cancel out the advantage of private schools

CruelCoin

laoch na mona wrote: »

HEAR is to compensate students who can't afford grinds and to cancel out the advantage of private schools

Which works to cancel out the advantage of kids duly earned by those parents who work hard enough to send their kids to these private schools.

GaryIrv93

The lack of education or what you've ''learnt'' in school after 14 years of it often gives me the impression that school is there and is compulsory simply to keep young people off the streets, not to give you an education. Education is suppossed to be what stays with with you for the rest of you life, wheras the only things most of us hold onto after leaving school are the bare basics of English and Maths, and that's all what's needed. Seems like a huge waste of time and effort spending 14 years in there learning facts and figures (of very little to no relevance to anyone) only to leave with the most basic stuff. All you leave with is a report stating that you survived 14 years of hell. Some education.

New, relevant subjects need to be brought in, especially more IT learning, with less emphasis on the traditional subjects such as Irish which are of very little use to anyone. Bring in something such as 'Driving Skills' - bringing in car simulators to schools showing students how to drive safely at a young age. Teach them also about engines, cars, computers, DIY skills, how to pay bills, taxes, how to mangage money responsibly, etc and more time outdoors to give them more engagement with the outside world. Useful subjects urgently need to be brought in now, not later. Students should have more flexible choices on subjects and be allowed to choose those that suit their personalities. No harm in giving them a bit more freedom in their own education.

Student's grades in my opinion should be based on not by exams, but by continuous assessment. Another alternative to exams or CA could be to base grades on punctuality, work quality, behavior, attendance, ability to follow instructions, how they treat others, how well they can work with and engage with others etc etc.

Rant over.

opinion guy

CruelCoin wrote: »

Which works to cancel out the advantage of kids duly earned by those parents who work hard enough to send their kids to these private schools.

Good.
We are supposed to have an equal education system.

steddyeddy

CruelCoin wrote: »

Which works to cancel out the advantage of kids duly earned by those parents who work hard enough to send their kids to these private schools.

The point about educating children is that they have an equal education. By offering one child grinds and not another your giving one an advantage over the other. This means that the child with the advantage will most likely get into college not the child who is necessarily best for the course. Of course the point often overlooked is that children deserve and equal education because there is no fair way to give one a better education over another based on what his or her parents did irespective of the child.

steddyeddy

bobbytables wrote: »

I can't speak for everyone else, but 90% of my L.C. comprised of material that became completely redundant the moment I finished the exams. Despite that fact, it was still the sole benchmark that nearly prevented me from pursuing a 3rd level qualification in my desired field. Only when I started college I realized my academic potential (still 17). I became a straight A student & gained confidence for the first time. I got my under/post grad degrees & enjoyed every minute of it. A stark contrast to my academic endeavours prior to that.

The funny thing is, I am a qualified & experienced Software Engineer, I have done the commercialization R&D / IP / Patents / 4th level high tech research thing. In many regards I & many others like me are a walking cliche when it comes to the sort of candidates that are in demand in Ireland today. Look at the industries that are thriving & then look at how much focus is given to relevant subject matter in the L.C.

I can only speak for IT, but this notion that a quality education in this area can wait until a person is of college going age is part of the problem.

I am extremely lucky to be in this position but the Leaving Cert only stood to hinder my progress as opposed to contribute in any real way.

Fair play on what you have achieved. Im exactly the same. Im involved in a research masters now and I didnt know I was an academic until I went to college. I always loved the sciences in school and I always was asking questions to try and further my understand but the teachers didnt want to answer anything outside of the typical rote learning system which is ironic because it would have furthered my understanding of the subject.

micheal1995

i am doing the leaving this year and find it depressing that alot of the stuff that is thought is useless. in maths a good understanding of + - * / and trigonometry is needed of course. but i was doing higher maths differentiation and sh*t like that come on i dropped and happy out. budgets/profit/percentage should be thought. also i agree about driving but not simulators it is harder to use them than a car. the 12 lessons is a load of crap too i have been driving on the road since i was 16 (tractor) it should mean something. more IT and i find that if most people learn more by doing than reading about it eg. construction studies make a model roof instead of reading about it

rant over i should look at my higher history

1ZRed

I did it last year and did alright, got all Bs.
Thing is, it is hardly a test of intelligence, just memory. When I was doing it, I thought this is completely overwhelming and a lot of it is useless information (stair na gaeilge comes to mind!!!) so it should be changed a bit at the very least.
But then again with continual assessment, you run the risk of people not taking it seriously all the time and then paying the price of it later when you cop on to yourself - kind of like the junior cert mindset.


Best bet for me is the break it up into two exams in December/January and June maybe.
Mix up the subjects so you do biology,engineering,French etc (secondary subjects) in one go and then break the core subjects (English,Maths and Irish + whatever else) in half.
I'd say finish them off completely but then nobody would do Maths for half the year while you cram for the English exams.

Even this isn't ideal so it's a headache to sort out.

validusername1

It definitely should be changed. The Leaving Cert is a test of memory, not intelligence or how hard-working an individual is at a certain task. It's about memorising information from a 2 year course 7 or 8 subjects.. how is this fair?

The fact that we have no choice but to do the 3 compulsory subjects + 3/4 others is ridiculous. I was forced to choose subjects that I have absolutely no interest in whatsoever, just to meet the minimum requirement of 6. Subjects that I never plan to study again. Subjects that will serve me no purpose whatsoever with the college course that I want to do as they are unrelated, yet, those subjects decide whether I get the college course or not!? It's crazy.

The UK system of choosing just 2/3 subjects that a person actually has an interest in and can work hard at is a much better way of doing it.

Continuous assessment is a must in my opinion. Not only would continuous assessment make people work harder (by making them work throughout the 2 years, for things that will count directly towards their results, rather than spending hours learning things that may not even come up) but it would also give a true test of how hard-working people are, which I think is the real ''entry requirement'' that should be considered to get into college. With continuous assessment, people would be aware that they are being examined all year, thus making them work harder.

With the current Leaving Cert, if I want to do a course in lets say music in a university, chances are I'd need around 400 points. And where do those points come from? Subjects like biology, home economics, etc - subjects that have no relevance whatsoever to the course. So why are they important? There is too much emphasis on points.

I know that I am not the only person who feels like this, clearly. I agree with the letter that girl wrote. People need to start doing something about it. It's too late for some of us, but the current Leaving Cert just cannot go on the way it is. I find it ridiculous to the highest level.

Perhaps the best way to start would be changing the Leaving Cert to 50% coursework/continuous assessment and 50% exams. I find this may be best, as it would suit different people in a fair way. Some people excel at exams, others excel at coursework/continuous assessment. At least doing it 50/50 would give fairness. I know that with myself, I don't test well. But I put my absolute all into an assignment if I am given one and I do really well at them. Subjects like geography and home ec where there are projects that are worth 20% of the final result, that's what I mean by coursework. It's not fair putting pretty much ALL emphasis on exams. This doesn't suit everyone. It doesn't suit everyone's type of learning. I'm aware coursework doesn't either, but like I said, if it's done 50/50 at least it will be fair.

Don't even know why I'm bothering voicing this opinion though to be honest. The government never seem to listen to what the people want anyway.