Do you consider Ireland a Banana Republic?

dvpower

christmas2012 wrote: »

It is easy to say we put em there etc,but what choices in politics do we have its an oligarchic klepocracy not a democracy as they claim..

these are the choices:((and NOBODY votes for anybody other than these main parties)

Fianna Fail

Labour

Fine Gael

The odd independant(probably a business shark with his her own greedy-selfish interests)

Why don't you run?

christmas2012

im not a dishonest conniving money grubbing double speak merchant i dont have all the smooth tricks(or not so smooth tricks) they have..

I think it takes a certain type of person to enter a kleptocracy,someone devoid of conscience,who can easily tell bare faced lies to the public and not give one damn about the consequences to the public..

fryup

well, when this song was released it most certainly was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfMwWLnpgGw

dvpower

christmas2012 wrote: »

im not a dishonest conniving money grubbing double speak merchant i dont have all the smooth tricks(or not so smooth tricks) they have..

I think it takes a certain type of person to enter a kleptocracy,someone devoid of conscience,who can easily tell bare faced lies to the public and not give one damn about the consequences to the public..

Ok
Carry on whinging from the sidelines so.

christmas2012

Yeah a better idea join and become one of them scuffling for half a seat while you watch the bigwig near the top of the foodchain of that political party have all the say..politics at its best in ireland..Unless you are a relative of jackie healey rae you have no hope here its all nepotism..trust me on that

PinkFly

Can Banana man be our leader of I vote yes??

jmayo

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Are we still the largest manufacturers of bananas in the EU ?

I'm not joking it was an amazing tax-dodge

No not tax dodgy, but due to fact that Fyffes, one of the oldest fruit brands in the world, handles almost the entire banana production of Belize, as well as production from Costa Rica, Brazil, Honduras, etc.

Deleted User wrote: »

Didn't Fyyfes shares drop from about 4500 to about 44 cents each a couple of years ago, so probably not anymore.

That could have something to do with EU claiming theyt had a banana cartel.
Oh and they won case against DCC for insider trading, ooops did I say that.

And just to show we are a banana republic the people involved had to be forced to resign, rather than go to jail such as Martha Stewart or Milikan in the US.
Also company share support schemes in the Uk mean you go to jail like Ernest Saunders, whereas in Ireland people like seanie fitzpatrick get to play golf.

flutterflye wrote: »

Bananas are quite an interesting fruit really.
Very different to any other fruit.
Most fruits are juicy.
None have the same kind of texture as a banana.
You rarely get banana flavoured sweets either.

The bananas that we eat is the Cavendish and there is a likelihood that they will become extinct unavailable from disease ?
Thus the EU will have to start all over again with their banana debate. :rolleyes:

steddyeddy

dvpower wrote: »

I dunno - the Corruption Perceptions Index is based on what people think.

How prevalent did the Irish think child abuse was until the last decade?

dvpower

steddyeddy wrote: »

How prevalent did the Irish think child abuse was until the last decade?

I'm sorry, are you saying that you are aware of massive corruption that isn't recognised by the general population?

Wanna share?

steddyeddy

dvpower wrote: »

I'm sorry, are you saying that you aware of massive corruption that isn't recognised by the general population?

Wanna share?

You were saying the people dont think Ireland is corrupt. I was pointing out the flaw in your arguement. Perception and reality dont go hand in hand.

Duggys Housemate

steddyeddy wrote: »

You were saying the people dont think Ireland is corrupt. I was pointing out the flaw in your arguement. Perception and reality dont go hand in hand.

This is worldwide perception. You cant handle facts.

steddyeddy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

This is worldwide perception. You cant handle facts.

You cant handle me having a different opinion it seems. Again to reiterate perception of a subject is not the same as a statement of reality.

dvpower

steddyeddy wrote: »

You were saying the people dont think Ireland is corrupt. I was pointing out the flaw in your arguement. Perception and reality dont go hand in hand.

So where do you think Ireland stands in world corruption rankings, and can you provide objective evidence for your claim.
(I'm confident that your not going to reply with only your perception).

juan.kerr

No, but I have a couple of pairs of 'Banana Republic' boxer shorts that I like.

steddyeddy

dvpower wrote: »

So where do you think Ireland stands in world corruption rankings, and can you provide objective evidence for your claim.
(I'm confident that your not going to reply with only your perception).

I dont get you? Do you want me to reply with my perception/opinion or not?

Duggys Housemate

steddyeddy wrote: »

You cant handle me having a different opinion it seems. Again to reiterate perception of a subject is not the same as a statement of reality.

You are hung up on the "perception" part of that link. Had you read further it is based on:

Transparency International commissioned Johann Graf Lambsdorff of the University of Passau to produce the Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI).[4] The 2010 CPI draws on 13 different surveys and assessments from 10 independent institutions.[5] The institutions are the African Development Bank, the Asian Development Bank, the Bertelsmann Foundation, the Economist Intelligence Unit, Freedom House, Global Insight, International Institute for Management Development, Political and Economic Risk Consultancy, the World Economic Forum, and the World Bank.[6] The 13 surveys/assessments are either business people opinion surveys or performance assessments from a group of analysts.[2] Early CPIs used public opinion surveys. Countries must be assessed by at least three sources to appear in the CPI.[7]

In other words, experts. I don't have a problem with people having opinions, they need to be backed up.

dvpower

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont get you? Do you want me to reply with my perception/opinion or not?

It was you who said that perception and reality don't go hand in hand.
I'm asking you to show me the reality.

Tonyandthewhale

steddyeddy wrote: »

You were saying the people dont think Ireland is corrupt. I was pointing out the flaw in your arguement. Perception and reality dont go hand in hand.

Earlier in the thread you posited the view that Ireland is as corrupt as Somalia (a country so over-run by anarchy and corruption that it doesn't even have a central government anymore). You loose the right to have an opinion until you do something to redeem yourself. Preferably something involving multiple backflips and fireworks.

steddyeddy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

You are hung up on the "perception" part of that link. Had you read further it is based on:

Transparency International commissioned Johann Graf Lambsdorff of the University of Passau to produce the Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI).[4] The 2010 CPI draws on 13 different surveys and assessments from 10 independent institutions.[5] The institutions are the African Development Bank, the Asian Development Bank, the Bertelsmann Foundation, the Economist Intelligence Unit, Freedom House, Global Insight, International Institute for Management Development, Political and Economic Risk Consultancy, the World Economic Forum, and the World Bank.[6] The 13 surveys/assessments are either business people opinion surveys or performance assessments from a group of analysts.[2] Early CPIs used public opinion surveys. Countries must be assessed by at least three sources to appear in the CPI.[7]

In other words, experts. I don't have a problem with people having opinions, they need to be backed up.

No problem. One of the experts I have a lot of time for is Elaine byrne since yourself and mr.dvpower are asking the same sort of question Ill detail the myself and Elaines view in response to the post below.

Johro

Johro wrote: »

Don't forget that those other countries with their wonderful infrastructure have much greater populations and therefore many more tax dollars to spend on them.

Which makes it even more vital that we don't squander money when we get it...Woops!!!

For a small country the Taoiseach is on even more money than Obama and Cameron and probably Merkel and Hollande too. The wages paid to politicians and civil servants is absolutely disgraceful. The CEO of the ESB made €750k approx in 2010 and you could look further down the list, Ianrod Eireann, Bord Na Mona... :mad: How many people are on hospital trollies in corridors tonight while Brendan Drumm is living a lavish lifesyle having being practically given a blank cheque by the gombeen FF/Green/PG government

Money is squandered on junkets, white elephant projects, paying well over the odds on projects and that's not just salaries. As i write this it has emerged that university staff were overpaid by 8.1m the last 5 years and this is a time when ordinary people are having to face cuts to education.


So yes....Banana Republic or perhaps even Planet of the apes

steddyeddy

dvpower wrote: »

It was you who said that perception and reality don't go hand in hand.
I'm asking you to show me the reality.

Below is the view by Elaine byrne Prof of political science in Trinity college dublin. Her views would largely represent mine. the biggest issue I have with corruption in Ireland lies around the lack of prosecution of the criminals involved. A lot of the time there are even people willing to testify that they have recieved bribes ect but nothing is done about it.

POLITICS: The political analyst Elaine Byrne has charted Ireland’s financial scandals and, with them, the culture that created a tolerance for unethical behaviour
IRISH POLITICS are not outstandingly corrupt. The former French president Jacques Chirac was found guilty of corruption last year: when he was mayor of Paris he used public funds to pay party cronies for Mafia-style no-show jobs. The former German chancellor Helmut Kohl hid under-the-counter donations from, among others, a dodgy arms dealer. Until recently, Italian politics were dominated by Silvio Berlusconi, who makes Charles Haughey look like Savonarola. British parliamentarians systematically ripped off public money by claiming false expenses. On any given day, the New York Times is more likely than not to have at least one report of a city or state power broker on trial for graft.
By these standards, Ireland is hardly an island of rottenness in a sea of purity. It’s no beacon either, of course. Two prime ministers – Haughey and Bertie Ahern – on the take; the systematic corruption of the planning process over two decades; a capital city whose development was determined by bribes; a hugely lucrative public competition – the awarding of the second mobile-phone licence – notable for financial links between the winner and the responsible minister: all of these make Ireland highly competitive in the shame game. But they’re not, in international terms, wholly egregious.
There are, nonetheless, two extraordinary aspects of political corruption in Ireland. One is impunity. Almost every other democratic country has one unbreakable rule: don’t get caught. Although Chirac and Kohl, for example, were major figures not just in their own countries but on the European stage, this status did not save them from prosecution. (Kohl’s case was dropped in return for his paying a €150,000 fine.) Westminster politicians caught fiddling expenses served significant jail terms. This is not the Irish way. Senior politicians are not prosecuted for corruption. Ray Burke went to jail for tax offences and Liam Lawlor for refusing to answer questions from a tribunal. A senior Irish politician is extremely unlikely to see the inside of a cell on corruption charges. The chances of someone who pays bribes meeting the same fate are even smaller.
The second distinguishing aspect of Irish public culture is related to the first: impunity is not just legal but can also be moral, social and political. Kohl, the man who unified Germany, was destroyed, humiliated and ostracised. Here no great shame is attached to adverse findings from a tribunal. The two central figures in the grim story of the second mobile-phone licence, Denis O’Brien and Michael Lowry, are thriving. Lowry increased his vote in the last election; O’Brien has his photograph taken with the Taoiseach and is becoming the most dominant media owner in the history of the State.

So basically those facts about those in power and the fact that they did it with impunity dont fill me with confidence.

Duggys Housemate

steddyeddy wrote: »

Below is the view by Elaine byrne Prof of political science in Trinity college dublin. Her views would largely represent mine. the biggest issue I have with corruption in Ireland lies around the lack of prosecution of the criminals involved. A lot of the time there are even people willing to testify that they have recieved bribes ect but nothing is done about it.



So basically those facts about those in power and the fact that they did it with impunity dont fill me with confidence.

You didn't notice that the start of the paragraph makes our point?

IRISH POLITICS are not outstandingly corrupt. The former French president Jacques Chirac was found guilty of corruption last year: when he was mayor of Paris he used public funds to pay party cronies for Mafia-style no-show jobs. The former German chancellor Helmut Kohl hid under-the-counter donations from, among others, a dodgy arms dealer. Until recently, Italian politics were dominated by Silvio Berlusconi, who makes Charles Haughey look like Savonarola. British parliamentarians systematically ripped off public money by claiming false expenses. On any given day, the New York Times is more likely than not to have at least one report of a city or state power broker on trial for graft.

Its all relative, Ireland is relatively uncorrupt. What that says about the rest of the world is that we are top of a heap of ****e.

steddyeddy

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

You didn't notice that the start of the paragraph makes our point?

IRISH POLITICS are not outstandingly corrupt. The former French president Jacques Chirac was found guilty of corruption last year: when he was mayor of Paris he used public funds to pay party cronies for Mafia-style no-show jobs. The former German chancellor Helmut Kohl hid under-the-counter donations from, among others, a dodgy arms dealer. Until recently, Italian politics were dominated by Silvio Berlusconi, who makes Charles Haughey look like Savonarola. British parliamentarians systematically ripped off public money by claiming false expenses. On any given day, the New York Times is more likely than not to have at least one report of a city or state power broker on trial for graft.

Its all relative, Ireland is relatively uncorrupt. What that says about the rest of the world is that we are top of a heap of ****e.

I said Ireland is a lot more corrupt than people think. I still hold that view. I havent the slightest clue why people see nothing wrong with the fact that the people investigated in the article werent even investigated in a court of law. Incidents of exposed corruption might be smaller than other larger countries but the corrupt in this country operate with impunity.

dvpower

steddyeddy wrote: »

I said Ireland is a lot more corrupt than people think.

Maybe you misunderstand what other people think.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I havent the slightest clue why people see nothing wrong with the fact that the people investigated in the article werent even investigated in a court of law.

See

steddyeddy

dvpower wrote: »

Maybe you misunderstand what other people think.


See

See what?

RATM

Johro wrote: »

Don't forget that those other countries with their wonderful infrastructure have much greater populations and therefore many more tax dollars to spend on them.

Codswallop. Finland has a population of 5 million which is pretty close to our 4.5m. The size of the country is about 7-8 times that of Ireland which means they have to provide way more infrastructure that what is needed in Ireland.

Their infrastructure also has to content with winters that drop to -35 degrees Celsius which adds yet another layer of difficulty.

Without doubt Finland has a far better infrastructure and social health, education and welfare system with a relatively similar population.

The problem with Ireland is our politicians never strive to provide world class services. Mediocrity is the order of the day and you can see this right throughout government services. When I say medoicrity I mean that the services work to some extent but always have that air about them that the whole roof could come caving in at any moment. Look at the hospitals, look at Irish Rail, the education system with its thousands of prefabs. All of them smack of mediocrity.

Fussy Eater

Hey, 15 years of boom can't make up for centuries of being a European backwater...

Capt'n Midnight

jmayo wrote: »

No not tax dodgy, but due to fact that Fyffes, one of the oldest fruit brands in the world, handles almost the entire banana production of Belize, as well as production from Costa Rica, Brazil, Honduras, etc.

It went to the supreme court twice over whether ripening bananas was a manufacturing process for tax relief purposes
http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/foi/s16/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-14/14-01-07.pdf?download=true

It had been held by the Supreme Court, in Charles McCann Ltd v
S.O’Cualachain, Inspector of Taxes, (1998) IR 196, that the process of
artificially ripening bananas was a manufacturing process.

philstar

bb1234567 wrote: »

Whats a banana republic??

this......:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__ZsfC08Goc

jmayo

RATM wrote: »

Codswallop. Finland has a population of 5 million which is pretty close to our 4.5m. The size of the country is about 7-8 times that of Ireland which means they have to provide way more infrastructure that what is needed in Ireland.

Their infrastructure also has to content with winters that drop to -35 degrees Celsius which adds yet another layer of difficulty.

Without doubt Finland has a far better infrastructure and social health, education and welfare system with a relatively similar population.

The problem with Ireland is our politicians never strive to provide world class services. Mediocrity is the order of the day and you can see this right throughout government services. When I say medoicrity I mean that the services work to some extent but always have that air about them that the whole roof could come caving in at any moment. Look at the hospitals, look at Irish Rail, the education system with its thousands of prefabs. All of them smack of mediocrity.

Ehh it is not just the politicans.
A huge chunk of the blame lies at the feet of the people themselves who elect these politicans, who condone dodgy behaviour, who back the politicans who think short term.

The mess in the hospitals, CIE, education is not really down to the politicans, it is down to a huge chunk of the fooking fuc*wits that are employed there (note I didn't say work there) and who continue to maintain these organisations and institutions as a safe haven for ineptitute, laziness, cronyism and protectionism.

The main difference between Finland and us is that they are Finns, who are straight talking, very law abiding, hardworking.
You could also compare us to New Zealand and again we come out worse.

We are more like our Southern European friends.

There was a debate somewhere before about how the countries that went totally apesh** during the boom were not those of protestant ancestry.
Note also how Canada and New Zealand were more conservative and carefull during the boom.
Again both those countries were founded on protestant principles.