Mother anger at IRA medals given by GAA

Sound of Silence

true wrote: »

but you still have not answered properly.

As someone else said, when "we" do it somehow it's all ok. The GAA need to wise up on this one.

Don't make me go searching for innumerable posts when I've already been through the Thread. I was nice enough to post links in one of my previous posts, as I wouldn't be so brash as to expect you to take my word.

Regardless, here's how I replied to your hypothetical question in a previous post.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79048768&postcount=142

K-9

awec wrote:

I have problems with it too.

But the IRA operated a shoot to kill policy for the entirety of their campaign. If they caught someone they suspected of being a soldier they were tortured, executed and their body dumped down some country lane (if they were lucky).

For any IRA sympathiser / supporter to try and take some moral highground about any shoot to kill policy exercised by the brits is beyond hypocritical. It's laughable.

Genuine sympathy goes out to the innocent victims of this shoot to kill stuff. My sympathy is limited though when it comes to those who created victims as well.

Fair enough.

You might say laughable, honorable men in the RUC didn't laugh at it when the Stalker inquiry interviewed them, at great personal risk. They seen the RUC as better than the IRA, that they should be held to a higher standard than the IRA because that's the point of law and order. Once the forces of law and order go down to the terrorists level, you've lost.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Enjoy http://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n11/letters#2

Wow - a letter. Thats great. Google really dug the empire out of a hole there.

True wrote:

...is that not a great lesson in morality to be giving to young sportspeople?

You defend the UDR. That leaves you nair a leg to stand on.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

Wow - a letter. Thats great. Google really dug the empire out of a hole there.

Read up about Kenya, it is fascinating. There was a civil war going on as well as the uprising and both sides did some shocking things.

Ms Elkins though is more interested.in sensationalising it and selling books than what actually happened. As always, it is worth reading several books to get a balanced view, if you want one that is.

Richard

K-9 wrote: »

If the UVF killer was a member of the soccer club and played for them I'd have to put up with it though see it as ill advised.

I wouldn't (put up with it).

Ms.M

Richard wrote: »

I wouldn't.

You might have to clarify that Richard:

You wouldn't feel you had to put up with it?
Or you wouldn't see it as ill-advised?

Happyman42

What amazes me about threads like this is the belief among partitionists, and worse, those that kept their heads in the sand, that the GFA agreement was in someway an admission by the republican community that the IRA was wrong and that they automatically should be ashamed of them.
That is NOT the case, because local communities believe that the IRA achieved the peace they now live in and the parity of esteem they have, and the equal oppurtunities and shared governance they now enjoy. Without the IRA they believe that would never have happened.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, give it a generation(even less) and you will see young people wearing t-shirts with iconic images of these people on them, in much the same way as you see them wearing t-shirts of Che etc.
The notion that the IRA was made up of people somehow disconnected from their communities is totally wrong. They evolved out of and where products of those communities and in the case of the deceased ones where buried by those communities.
It is totally wrong that you now want these communities to also offer up their respect for the contribution of these men and women to their respective communities to satisfy your churlish, cowardly revisonism. The IRA existed and was made up from real people, get over it.
Part of the process to peace is acceptance on all sides. This wasn't done to encourage hate and division in the same way that Orange marches use King Billy's contribution as a triumphalist and provocative vehicle to express hate.
If this club insisted on playing the tournament in Unionist areas and had him bearing a Kalashnikov and used the tournament as an excuse to burn effigies of Carson or the Queen then it might be viewed as provocative and mistaken.
There is a difference, this is a quiet and respectful tribute to one man's contribution to the club and community. People have to be allowed to honour their dead as they see fit.

true

Happyman42 wrote: »

Without the IRA they believe that would never have happened.

Without the IRA thousands of men, women and children would be alive now. People like Garda McCabe in Adare would be alive if the IRA did not empty their AK47 in to him. Due to botch ups etc, the IRA killed more Catholics than anyone else, so you cannot say they were defending their community.

Nodin wrote: »

You defend the UDR. That leaves you nair a leg to stand on.

This thread is not about the UDR. However I made the point the UDR was accountable to the rule of law, and the majority of its 10,000 plus members over several decades were law abiding citizens. As members of the UDR they were in the armed forces / defence forces of the army of the UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland....nothing more , nothing less. I condemned any collusion between some members of the UDR and paramilitaries, the same as I condemned any collusion between some members the Gardai and the PIRA.

true

K-9 wrote: »

If the UVF killer was a member of the soccer club and played for them I'd have to put up with it though see it as ill advised.

I would condemn it just as much as I would condemn a IRA killer being put on a medal for a young boy sporting person. As far as I know, generally the loyalists - or any soccopr or rugby or other sporting clubs for that matter - do not name their sports grounds after dead terrorists or give out medals of dead terrorists to their youngsters though. Soccer is more inclusive a sport.
Now, c'mon the boys in green. Euro 2012

rn

Happyman42 wrote: »

. People have to be allowed to honour their dead as they see fit.

Agreed, but within reason. This certainly goes against the spirit of the GAA guidelines on participation, openness and non-political aims of the association. Modern GAA competitions should be commemorating the local/county deceased sporting successes and parish leagues should probably be non named at all to be honest.

The very fact that this thread has diverged into politics and historical conflict debate is proof of the inappropriateness of what this club has done.

Happyman42

true wrote: »

Without the IRA thousands of men, women and children would be alive now. People like Garda McCabe in Adare would be alive if the IRA did not empty their AK47 in to him. Due to botch ups etc, the IRA killed more Catholics than anyone else, so you cannot say they were defending their community.

That is YOUR assessment, others see the overall picture differently. :rolleyes: We can cherrypick individual events until the cows come home. It was nasty, rebellion frequently is.
How many thousands died because of the conditions they were forced to live in, because of the oppurtunities they never got, and because of the standards they could expect is incalcuable and how many died as a result of the British attempt to quell rebelions.
You have the choice of not taking part in the tournament or not joining the club, those that went before us in this country didn't have such choices, they now have equal oppurtunities, parity of esteem and shared governance. All you are being asked is to have some humanity and understanding in making your judgement.

nua domhan

true wrote: »

Without the IRA thousands of men, women and children would be alive now. People like Garda McCabe in Adare would be alive if the IRA did not empty their AK47 in to him. Due to botch ups etc, the IRA killed more Catholics than anyone else, so you cannot say they were defending their community.

Quite impossible for you or anyone to say that. Who knows what would have happened? Unless of course you are a quantum physicist who specialises in parallel universes and have developed some way of predicting every outcome from every possibility? In which case congratulations, may i have the euro-millions numbers please?

I could argue that if without the anti-Bolshevik's of 1917 there would have been thousands of men, women and children that were not killed.

I hope you are intelligent enough to understand the rest of the analogy yourself.

Happyman42

rn wrote: »

Agreed, but within reason. This certainly goes against the spirit of the GAA guidelines on participation, openness and non-political aims of the association. Modern GAA competitions should be commemorating the local/county deceased sporting successes and parish leagues should probably be non named at all to be honest.

The very fact that this thread has diverged into politics and historical conflict debate is proof of the inappropriateness of what this club has done.

His contribution to the CLUB is being celebrated, not his part in the conflict. If it was, he would have been dressed in the garb and would have been holding a gun.
As I say, acceptance that the men and women involved where real people, with investment and roots in specific communities is what is missing here. The attempt to make them seperate and some inposition on the situation is laughable when you see the partitionists cheering the Queens laying of a wreath and her words in The Garden Of Remberance. SHE ACCEPTED the point I am making.

In a hugely symbolic gesture reflecting a new era in relations between the countries, the British monarch bowed her head as she laid a wreath at the memorial for those who died fighting for Irish freedom, before observing a minute’s silence.

true

Happyman42 wrote: »

You have the choice of not taking part in the tournament or not joining the club

Yes, and most people would not join such a sporting club where medals of terrorists ( of any side ) are given out to young boys.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Read up about Kenya, it is fascinating. .......

O I have. The attitude to the natives from the get-go is most enlightening.

true

Happyman42 wrote: »

His contribution to the CLUB is being celebrated, not his part in the conflict.

Why was he picked out and put on the medals so when other people who made a contribution to that club were not?

Nodin

true wrote: »

This thread is not about the (.........)the PIRA.

I know what you said, and it was a crock of shite then and a crock of shite now. They were a sectarian militia, corrupt to the core.

nua domhan

true wrote: »

Why was he picked out and put on the medals so when other people who made a contribution to that club were not?

"He was an excellent footballer, played for his county, did a lot of work for his community and died young" - was what the mother could have said to her child and accepted that this was the reason he was on a football medal......he played football.

The bigotry is in the eye of the beholder.

Happyman42

true wrote: »

Yes, and most people would not join such a sporting club where medals of terrorists ( of any side ) are given out to young boys.

'Most'? Who are these 'Most'?
How do you account for their membership figures are they all rabid 'RA men and women?
You seem to be suggesting that the country be 'cleansed' of anybody who had a hand act or part in the conflict so that you can live in your utopian state with an invented history. Time for you to face up to and accept your past, the REAL people are way ahead of you.

Fratton Fred

Happyman42 wrote: »

His contribution to the CLUB is being celebrated, not his part in the conflict. If it was, he would have been dressed in the garb and would have been holding a gun.
As I say, acceptance that the men and women involved where real people, with investment and roots in specific communities is what is missing here. The attempt to make them seperate and some inposition on the situation is laughable when you see the partitionists cheering the Queens laying of a wreath and her words in The Garden Of Remberance. SHE ACCEPTED the point I am making.

you really really chose the wrong user name.

true

Nodin wrote: »

They were a sectarian militia, corrupt to the core.

The IRA...you forgot to say they were illegial too, and killed a number of the security forces on BOTH sides of the border. Why then glorify one of their members and put his picture on a medal to be given out to boys, of all people ? What do you think under age runner-ups deserve, a picture of one of the Omagh bombers? Yes or no?

Nodin

true wrote: »

The IRA...you forgot to say they were illegial too, and killed a number of the security forces on BOTH sides of the border. Why then glorify one of their members and put his picture on a medal to be given out to boys, of all people ?

....because I'm a republican and I supported the armed struggle? See I'm honest about where I stand, whatever about some of the people I'd debating with.

Happyman42

true wrote: »

The IRA...you forgot to say they were illegial too,

The British legitimised the existence of the IRA long ago, by talking and negotiating the peace with them. The IRA also apologised for the wrongs they did, as the British are now doing. Why can't you? Play your part in moving on and enough of the one sided condemnation.

Spread

true wrote: »

The IRA...you forgot to say they were illegial too, and killed a number of the security forces on BOTH sides of the border. Why then glorify one of their members and put his picture on a medal to be given out to boys, of all people ? What do you think under age runner-ups deserve, a picture of one of the Omagh bombers? Yes or no?

Maybe illegal by British standards ........ just as all other freedom fighters seeking control of their own lives and destinations.
Would you lie down - belly up - to a people that want to enslave you?
I think we all know the answer.
Can you not get your skull around the fact that it is the uninvited British presence that is the problem?
If the answer is too sensitive for you to admit ....... then we understand.

K-9

Richard wrote: »

I wouldn't.

I would. ;)

rn

Happyman42 wrote: »

His contribution to the CLUB is being celebrated, not his part in the conflict.

What makes his contribution to the club special and different to all the other hundreds of deceased players who would have donned the jersey of that club or county?

This guy is being remembered for that one event in his life, chosen because some member of that GAA club thought he was his hero. He played no greater or less part in his "CLUB" than lots of individuals. He is controversial and divisive for that reason and as such is totally inappropriate for association with this sporting event.

Patrick Cleburne

Really surprised this GAA club decided to go down this route with a IRA terrorist who was responsible for killings in the war of republican aggression. Hopefully it doesn't put off Protestants in Ulster from playing GAA in the future but perhaps that is the main reason for this.

true

Spread wrote: »

Maybe illegal by British standards ........ just as all other freedom fighters seeking control of their own lives and destinations.
Would you lie down - belly up - to a people that want to enslave you?
I think we all know the answer.
Can you not get your skull around the fact that it is the uninvited British presence that is the problem?

I see you are posting from the USA. Are you native American? Are you lieng down - belly up- and enslaved by the people from Europeand elsewhere in the world who came and enslaved you ? Or do you - as a native American - want all the uninvited immigrants in the USA to go home?

Do not forget people were moving between these islands long before Europeans went to the USA.

Happyman42

rn wrote: »

What makes his contribution to the club special and different to all the other hundreds of deceased players who would have donned the jersey of that club or county?

You'll have to ask the club and it's members about that.

This guy is being remembered for that one event in his life, chosen because some member of that GAA club thought he was his hero. He played no greater or less part in his "CLUB" than lots of individuals. He is controversial and divisive for that reason and as such is totally inappropriate for association with this sporting event.

'He' divides you from the club and the elusive probably ficticious mother, you mean.
He is just another member to the people in the club who warrants celebration. If you wish to interfere in how they commemorate 'their' members then join the club and have your say. I notice you are now ridiculously inferring that this decision is down to a specific 'member' but that somehow the entire organisation of the GAA is responsible for it. :rolleyes:

true

Happyman42 wrote: »

You'll have to ask the club and it's members about that.



'He' divides you from the club and the elusive probably ficticious mother, you mean.
He is just another member to the people in the club who warrants celebration. If you wish to interfere in how they commemorate 'their' members then join the club and have your say. I notice you are now ridiculously inferring that this decision is down to a specific 'member' but that somehow the entire organisation of the GAA is responsible for it. :rolleyes:

You are digging a bigger hole for yourself, by implying it is a wider GAA decision rather than just one taken by a handful of members.

Would the GAA have a picture of a Real IRA bomber who bombed Omagh on the runners-up boys medal, if he was a past member of the club? And other medals showing a pictue of the heroes who killed the Garda in Adare Co. Limerick? Great sporting club that, and a great sporting organisation that allows such behaviour. Mothers, send your young boys elsewhere.
Time to move on and keep such divisive politics out of sport.

_______________________________________________________
C'mon the boys in green, euro 2012.

Richard

Ms.M wrote: »

You might have to clarify that Richard:

You wouldn't feel you had to put up with it?
Or you wouldn't see it as ill-advised?

Thanks - you're right to point that out. I wouldn't put up with a soccer club handing out medals with a UVF man on it.

Richard

Spread wrote: »

Maybe illegal by British standards

And Irish.

fryup

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Really surprised this GAA club decided to go down this route with a IRA terrorist who was responsible for killings in the war of republican aggression. Hopefully it doesn't put off Protestants in Ulster from playing GAA in the future but perhaps that is the main reason for this.

most ulster protestants have zero interest in GAA anyway to them its sectarian just like the OO is sectarian to catholics

Happyman42

true wrote: »

Mothers, send your young boys elsewhere.

Yes, let us create another generation who know how to stick their heads in the sand, don't know who they are or where they came from and indulge one sided condemnation and their own ignorance.


I see you pathetically attempt (with your Euro 2012 endorsement) to ignore the fact soccer is perhaps the last bastion of the expression of real public bigotry on this island, e.g. Celtic V Rangers and sportsmen declaring for the Republic. Do you remember Billy Bingham's MBE 'statesmans like' behaviour the night we needed to draw with the already out N.I.?
Somebody needs a reality check.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI1KuKKY7JU&feature=endscreen&NR=1

Spread

All soldiers that earn a wage are mercenaries, brainwashed to obey the behest of their mentors. On the other hand, freedom fighters, by and large, have analysed the position, come to a conclusion regarding the rights and wrongs and then follow their consciences.
You see it out here. Young impressionable, deluded and testosterone fuelled kids signing up for foreign adventures ......... perpetrated by lies peddled by politicians and multinationals. All very gung ho ......... until they get a bloody nose and then blame the opposition for not fighting fair.
All the natives (worldwide) that fought against British occupational forces were branded terrorists by the Brits. I'm assuming that the British Army/Unionist apologists in this forum understand that.

summerskin

Spread wrote: »

All soldiers that earn a wage are mercenaries, brainwashed to obey the behest of their mentors. On the other hand, freedom fighters, by and large, have analysed the position, come to a conclusion regarding the rights and wrongs and then follow their consciences.
You see it out here. Young impressionable, deluded and testosterone fuelled kids signing up for foreign adventures ......... perpetrated by lies peddled by politicians and multinationals. All very gung ho ......... until they get a bloody nose and then blame the opposition for not fighting fair.
All the natives (worldwide) that fought against British occupational forces were branded terrorists by the Brits. I'm assuming that the British Army/Unionist apologists in this forum understand that.

So you defend what Anders Breivik did, as that was his defence?

Or closer to home for you, Timothy McVeigh?


Just keep throwing $20 in the pot "for the boys"....

true

Happyman42 wrote: »

I see you pathetically attempt (with your Euro 2012 endorsement) to ignore the fact soccer is perhaps the last bastion of the expression of real public bigotry on this island

at least soccer clubs do not , on either side or anywhere in the island - as far as I know - give out medals of pictures of terrorists to 10 or 12 year old boys, or name football grounds after terrorists on either side. If you think soccer is sectarian, why not take up rugby or cricket or horse-riding or running or golf or tiddlewinks ?

You will not find those clubs giving out a medal with a picture of a PIRA man, a UVF man, a real IRA man ( omagh bomber ) or Osama Bin Laden on it. What sort of parents would have their young boy join a sporting club where they aspire to winning a medal of a terrorist?

Fratton Fred

Spread wrote: »

All soldiers that earn a wage are mercenaries, brainwashed to obey the behest of their mentors. On the other hand, freedom fighters, by and large, have analysed the position, come to a conclusion regarding the rights and wrongs and then follow their consciences.
You see it out here. Young impressionable, deluded and testosterone fuelled kids signing up for foreign adventures ......... perpetrated by lies peddled by politicians and multinationals. All very gung ho ......... until they get a bloody nose and then blame the opposition for not fighting fair.
All the natives (worldwide) that fought against British occupational forces were branded terrorists by the Brits. I'm assuming that the British Army/Unionist apologists in this forum understand that.

It is possible to be a freedom fighter without being a terrorist.

The PIRA crossed the line on many occasions and their acts of terror made it impossible for the UK government to openly negotiate with them. If they had stuck to military targets rather than targeting civilians then the GFA would have been signed 10 years earlier.

Spread

summerskin wrote: »

So you defend what Anders Breivik did, as that was his defence?

Or closer to home for you, Timothy McVeigh?


Just keep throwing $20 in the pot "for the boys"....

Neither of the two above had widespread popular appeal.

AFAIK Breivik has been diagnosed as mentally unstable.
And the general synopsis is that McVeigh is also a fruitcake

mikemac1

Join a club named after Patrick Pearse......................then complain about a medal for a gunman

tfitzgerald

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Really surprised this GAA club decided to go down this route with a IRA terrorist who was responsible for killings in the war of republican aggression. Hopefully it doesn't put off Protestants in Ulster from playing GAA in the future but perhaps that is the main reason for this.

War of republican aggression ? Yes I remember now it was all one sided

Happyman42

true wrote: »

at least soccer clubs do not , on either side or anywhere in the island - as far as I know - give out medals of pictures of terrorists to 10 or 12 year old boys, or name football grounds after terrorists on either side. If you think soccer is sectarian, why not take up rugby or cricket or horse-riding or running or golf or tiddlewinks ?

You will not find those clubs giving out a medal with a picture of a PIRA man, a UVF man, a real IRA man ( omagh bomber ) or Osama Bin Laden on it. What sort of parents would have their young boy join a sporting club where they aspire to winning a medal of a terrorist?

The IFA never reprimanded Billy Bingham MBE for his behaviour that night and before the game when he enticed sectarian bigotry and attempted to use sectarianism as a weapon in his armoury. In fact they honoured him and continue to CELEBRATE him and have not done anything tangible or effective to stamp out sectarianism in the game. FACT.
This club do not cite McCaughey's exploits as a freedom fighter as a reason for celebrating him. That the misguided and ill-informed try to impose that on their actions says more about them than the club.
Directing your ire at the real, proven and continuing bigots might be a better use of your time.

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It is possible to be a freedom fighter without being a terrorist.

The PIRA crossed the line on many occasions and their acts of terror made it impossible for the UK government to openly negotiate with them. If they had stuck to military targets rather than targeting civilians then the GFA would have been signed 10 years earlier.

The reason PIRA existed in the first place was because of the British and Unionist refusal to negotiate parity for all.
That the British & Unionists EVENTUALLY came to the table to negotiate lays most of the blame for the needless death and slaughter firmly at their doors. It should never have come to that in the first place. The relative peace that pertains now is testament to their failure at responisble and fair governance. They are responsible for allowing the situation get out of control in almost all their colonies.

Fratton Fred

The British were responsible? Is that why the Irish were happy to see them murdered in cold blood?

Spread

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It is possible to be a freedom fighter without being a terrorist.

The PIRA crossed the line on many occasions and their acts of terror made it impossible for the UK government to openly negotiate with them. If they had stuck to military targets rather than targeting civilians then the GFA would have been signed 10 years earlier.

The slaves that attacked their masters
The ANC that fought to get Civil Rights for the indigenous population
The IRA that fought to get Civil Rights for Catholics in NI
Can you tell me the difference?

Can you tell me of any colony that the Brits have ceded without a gun being put to their heads?

I guess you're belong to that rare breed who believes that colonization is all about education, road building and not rape and pillage.

If the French invaded and took over Kent ...... and the British government tried all peaceful ways of recovering Kent ...... then say some covert forces placed a few bombs on the Champs-Élysées, Euro-Disney, CDG Airport and La Défense ........ just to concentrate French minds like ......... would these forces not be regarded as heros back in Blighty?

Fratton Fred

Spread wrote: »

The slaves that attacked their masters
The ANC that fought to get Civil Rights for the indigenous population
The IRA that fought to get Civil Rights for Catholics in NI
Can you tell me the difference?

Can you tell me of any colony that the Brits have ceded without a gun being put to their heads?

I guess you're belong to that rare breed who believes that colonization is all about education, road building and not rape and pillage.

If the French invaded and took over Kent ...... and the British government tried all peaceful ways of recovering Kent ...... then say some covert forces placed a few bombs on the Champs-Élysées, Euro-Disney, CDG Airport and La Défense ........ just to concentrate French minds like ......... would these forces not be regarded as heros back in Blighty?

You mean like the bombing of shopping centres during the Falklands war?

I guess you've never heard of Ghandi as well. Ever been to Trinidad, or Jamaica? What about Australia or Canada?

You might want to check your history as well. The PIRA were never about civil rights, that falls into the re-writing history category.

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The British were responsible?

I always blame those who allow the situation spiral out of control in the first place. That is how you ensure it never happens again.
They had the control and the onus of responsibility was on them to ensure fair and democratic (that is what they call their system, isn't it?) governance.
The British never seemed to even want to learn from their own history until they were forced to. The classic behaviour of colonists.

The clue to understanding the above is in the current situation, the republicans have gotten most of what they wanted and are now, largely, living in peace. It could all have been different if only the British and the Unionists faced up to what was wrong and what needed to be done. It's called the 'Responsibility of Power'.

Fratton Fred

Happyman42 wrote: »

I always blame those who allow the situation spiral out of control in the first place. That is how you ensure it never happens again.
They had the control and the onus of responsibility was on them to ensure fair and democratic (that is what they call their system, isn't it?) governance.
The British never seemed to even want to learn from their own history until they were forced to. The classic behaviour of colonists.

The clue to understanding the above is in the current situation, the republicans have gotten most of what they wanted and are now, largely, living in peace. It could all have been different if only the British and the Unionists faced up to what was wrong and what needed to be done. It's called the 'Responsibility of Power'.

Surely you mean the British government then, or was it really, as it felt, a war against the people of Britain?

Spread

Fred, at history class when you were a teenager ........... how were you taught to look on colonization?

Good or Evil?

Patrick Cleburne

tfitzgerald wrote: »

War of republican aggression ? Yes I remember now it was all one sided

People have different views on it. Many people in Ulster believe it was from Republican aggression in the rejection of the state. I think Sinn Fein have now accepted this and now work for the British government. Another reason why there is still Republican aggression groups around.