A WHOPPING 46% Of Americans Believe In Creationism According To New Gallup Poll

sbsquarepants

The multiverse could/must contain a God somewhere, if you assume that the different universes within it don't necessarily have to follow the same laws of physics as our universe, then one of them must have a God if there are an infinite amount. It does depend on whether the multiverses are bound by the same laws as this one - are merely deviations from it because of quantum fluctuations - and the type of infinite series we are talking about.

I don't think that the different universes don't have to follow the rules of physics, the rules are the rules - it's just each possibility, each decision that could go two or more ways is played out somewhere. The impossible is still impossible.
That's my understanding of the theory anyway (but i'm not going to lie to you, i'm no theoretical physicist!)

Duggys Housemate

opinion guy wrote: »

Seattle and San Francisco are not representative of the US in general. They are very much freak cities in fact. Costal, affluent, democrat. They are also centre of high tech industry (or close enough) and attract lots of educated immigrants (from within and outside the US).
For all we know - the level in those cities is 5% - its just balanced out by a few thousand hicksvilles all over the middle of the US

Sure but I was responding to a guy who said "Of course, this is obvious, have you ever been to America?" Most Irish people go to Liberal Coastal America, the cities mentioned already and New York, Boston etc. So the "had you ever been to America" comment made little sense. We generally don't go to the bible belt.

In short we only know about America's fundamentalism because we read about it, not because we go there.

flutterflye

IrishAm wrote: »

Ive just conducted a poll. 90% of Irish people would give their right arm to live in America, yet 99% of them bash Americans at any given opportunity.

What poll?
Where?

No chance I'd ever live in the U.S. unless for some reason it was absolutely necessary.

Biggins

flutterflye wrote: »

That is a terrifying figure! :eek:
I can't understand how they can justify not teaching the facts to kids in schools.
It's craziness.

When religious nuts gain power - anything is attempted.
...And by golly, we have seen that all too often!

Duggys Housemate

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't think that the different universes don't have to follow the rules of physics, the rules are the rules - it's just each possibility, each decision that could go two or more ways is played out somewhere.

Thats one reading, for sure. In that reading, the multiverse is really a many worlds version of this universe where quantum fluctuations, and deviations from this one, are all there is, so all follow the logic and the laws of this one. Or, rather, we follow the logic and laws of the other multiverses, baring some quantum fluctuations. In fact we are in many of the universes consisting the multiverse writing on boards, or reading on boards.

However we are told the multiverse is infinite, so how far can the laws deviate from the norm? That is the question.

Duggys Housemate

Biggins wrote: »

When religious nuts gain power - anything is attempted.
...And by golly, we have seen that all too often!

The belief that religions cause most of the wars in history, is misguided.

IrishAm

flutterflye wrote: »

What poll?
Where?

No chance I'd ever live in the U.S. unless for some reason it was absolutely necessary.

Hahaha!

If America completely opened its borders to Irish citizens and offered them the same benefits as they are entitled to here, Ireland would be empty in a month.

flutterflye

IrishAm wrote: »

Hahaha!

If America completely opened its borders to Irish citizens and offered them the same benefits as they are entitled to here, Ireland would be empty in a month.

Yeah, so where is this poll?

I guess I'd be here on my own so
I'd quite like that actually.

Biggins

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The belief that religions cause most of the wars in history, is misguided.

Fair enough, thats debatable and another topic - but just for the record, I am not saying that here!
So don't impose that I might be!

Pushtrak

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't think that the different universes don't have to follow the rules of physics, the rules are the rules - it's just each possibility, each decision that could go two or more ways is played out somewhere. The impossible is still impossible.
That's my understanding of the theory anyway (but i'm not going to lie to you, i'm no theoretical physicist!)

Any speculation about what other universes would be like if they existed is futile. It would be way above our pay grade. Maybe even anyone who is alive today.

If you take for our own universe, general/special relativity which applies on the large scale in the universe, the galaxies. That doesn't apply to the small scale, the atoms. That's where quantum physics comes in. And then string theory. And trying to unify all the forces in to one theory. And that'd be our universe. It's safe to say there is enough to try to wrap our heads around with that much, and then say, the question: Are there multiverses and not, if there are how would they work.

Shenshen

Wibbs wrote: »

Plenty of evidence of what? The non existence of an external influence on the universe, particularly it's creation? As for "before" the big bang all we have is hypotheses and imaginings.

Er, no, the Big Bang itself, as stated by the poster I quoted.

IrishAm

flutterflye wrote: »

I'd quite like that actually.

That would be quite cool, now that I think of it. I am an American citizen, but Id stick around and keep you company. I am sure a few boozers would still have some stock left hanging about.

Duggys Housemate

Pushtrak wrote: »

Any speculation about what other universes would be like if they existed is futile. It would be way above our pay grade. Maybe even anyone who is alive today.

If you take for our own universe, general/special relativity which applies on the large scale in the universe, the galaxies. That doesn't apply to the small scale, the atoms. That's where quantum physics comes in. And then string theory. And trying to unify all the forces in to one theory. And that'd be our universe. It's safe to say there is enough to try to wrap our heads around with that much, and then say, the question: Are there multiverses and not, if there are how would they work.

Multiverse theory comes out of quantum theory, you cant ignore it in the quest to find out about our universe.

Duggys Housemate

IrishAm wrote: »

That would be quite cool, now that I think of it. I am an American citizen, but Id stick around and keep you company. I am sure a few boozers would still have some stock left hanging about.

You could live on beer, and tinned food for life. The milk would go sour though, so you'd have to learn to milk a cow.

IrishAm

Shenshen wrote: »

Er, no, the Big Bang itself, as stated by the poster I quoted.

You know religion is fucked when a junkie beats a bible thumper in a debate.

Pushtrak

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Multiverse theory come out of quantum theory, you cant ignore it in the quest to find out about our universe.

For the purpose of the discussion, we don't exactly have a solid basis for discussion. Interesting hypothetical, but we don't really have much in the way of scientific data to discuss in terms of what other universes could be like. Or am I mistaken?

sbsquarepants

flutterflye wrote: »

What poll?
Where?

No chance I'd ever live in the U.S. unless for some reason it was absolutely necessary.

Me either - i'd like to visit alright, but live there? No, not a chance!!

IrishAm wrote: »

Hahaha!

If America completely opened its borders to Irish citizens and offered them the same benefits as they are entitled to here, Ireland would be empty in a month.

I think you'll find there are a lot of people who wouldn't have any interest in living in america - i know quite a few, even a good few who have lived there and couldn't take to the place at all.

Pushtrak wrote: »

Any speculation about what other universes would be like if they existed is futile. It would be way above our pay grade. Maybe even anyone who is alive today.
.

Possibly, but if there is a universe somewhere, where i get regular kinky sex off kate winslett - i want to know about it. (apart from the one in my head that is!!)

Duggys Housemate

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Possibly, but if there is a universe somewhere, where i get regular kinky sex off kate winslett - i want to know about it. (apart from the one in my head that is!!)

There is a universe where a slightly overweight, poor, McDonald's working Kate Winslet is hoping to get off with international superstar sbsquarepants

Logical Fallacy

The poll, the article and the OP are all flawed.

Creationism does not instantly mean Young Earth Creationism.

Two very different things.

philologos

I believe that the Young Earth Creationist position is mistaken. I do believe that God created all things. There's a huge segment of Christians who would hold to much the same thing.

The Genesis passages from chapters 1 - 2 in the Hebrew text show that it is written in a poetic style. One of the unfortunate things about translation is that some of that is lost in the English. In these posts URL="http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78454413&postcount=116"]1[/URL URL="http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78457196&postcount=128"]2[/URL you'll find more of my argument for regarding it in a poetic style.

For all the people arguing though that Young Earth Creationists are idiots and so on, I wonder how many people have met them in person. From personal experience, although I strongly disagree with them, the last thing I would call the YECs that I know would be idiots. Calling people idiots actually doesn't make things better anyway. From my personal point of view, the best thing is to attempt to show with the utmost respect and love how Biblical Christianity needn't jettison modern science.

CL7

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

The poll, the article and the OP are all flawed.

Creationism does not instantly mean Young Earth Creationism.

Two very different things.

Logical Fallacy Strikes!!!!


/thread over

paddyandy

The book of Genesis is not a simple book . It's Layered and Oblique and very subtle .The Net is very adequate to facilitate the serious minded . I am not .

the_syco

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

how many of those still think Jesus will return to Jerusalem?

How many believe that their Jesus was white?

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The multiverse could/must contain a God somewhere

I am a god. Only human believe gods live forever, probably as they fear death.

Silly humans.

But yes, as I'm the all knowing god, you should believe me when I tell you I'm the only one, and there's no other gods.

dyl10 wrote: »

as well as undermining democracy and countless other attributes we value.

I assume from this that you don't want them to intervene in Syria?

the_syco

philologos wrote: »

From personal experience, although I strongly disagree with them, the last thing I would call the YECs that I know would be idiots.

I think I met two. They were unable to answer where dinosaurs came from, or when they existed.

Capt'n Midnight

many Muslims believe in creationism too, as do other relligions

most differ on the exact moment of creation Sunday, October 23, 4004 BC, but did it start at 6pm the previous evening ?

Duggys Housemate

the_syco wrote: »

How many believe that their Jesus was white?

Me! Me! I believe that!!

RobbingBandit

What percentage of Ireland believe in the St. Patrick stories.

Paddy Samurai

Since god is all powerful , he could have created evolution in the blink of a eye.

hooradiation

philologos wrote: »

For all the people arguing though that Young Earth Creationists are idiots and so on, I wonder how many people have met them in person. From personal experience, although I strongly disagree with them, the last thing I would call the YECs that I know would be idiots. Calling people idiots actually doesn't make things better anyway. From my personal point of view, the best thing is to attempt to show with the utmost respect and love how Biblical Christianity needn't jettison modern science.

It's ok to call a spade a spade, or in this case a YEC an idiot.

Or perhaps they're just being poetic?

Duggys Housemate

RobbingBandit wrote: »

What percentage of Ireland believe in the St. Patrick stories.

Me!

Einhard

A whopping % of Americans are seriously dumb.

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

I do believe that God created all things. There's a huge segment of Christians who would hold to much the same thing.

So you keep telling us in your nice little argumentum ad populum way. However whenever you are asked to explain why you believe this you tend to run away very fast indeed.

On the subject of the thread however the Pew and Gallup polls rarely make heartening reading on this subject and the Creationism numbers are always very significant. Sam Harris in his book where he wrote about many of these statistics can list for you some of the more depressing ones himself.

Ciaran0

Einhard wrote: »

A whopping % of Americans are seriously dumb.

I prefer to think that a whopping % of Americans are undereducated, rather then plain stupid. It gives me more hope that in the future things could change.

Ellis Dee

philologos wrote: »

---

The Genesis passages from chapters 1 - 2 in the Hebrew text show that it is written in a poetic style. One of the unfortunate things about translation is that some of that is lost in the English.

It doesn't matter what style it was written in, or how much has been lost - or added - in translation.:rolleyes: The bible is a book, just like the Lord of the Rings or a million other titles. No one can know how much of it is founded on fact, actual events, how much is derived from oral stories passed down and much embellished and garbled in the course of centuries or millennia, how much is the fruit of over-active imaginations and attempts to explain - using the limited knowledge and technological understanding of the time - all sorts of things that could not be explained in any rational way within the framework of the scientific understanding that people then possessed. And, of course, politics and propaganda and censorship and selective presentation and interpretation of facts have played a big role as well.:)

By all means, if that's what gets you off, believe that it is a message from some sort of creator, but you could say the same, with equal validity, about the Beano for that matter.:D

As Nietzsche famously said. "A casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows that faith proves absolutely nothing.":cool:

And on the subject of creationism and how many Americans believe in it, if I recall correctly, a very significant proportion of the total population in that benighted country firmly believe that they have at some time been abducted by aliens!:rolleyes:

nozzferrahhtoo

Ciaran0 wrote: »

I prefer to think that a whopping % of Americans are undereducated, rather then plain stupid. It gives me more hope that in the future things could change.

Unfortunately in many cases it is neither. The propganda war against Evolution is often based on Arguments from Emotion and alas emotion can override the intellect of even the most rational and intelligent people, let alone the "average joe" on the street.

Pictures like this one here show just the kind of war being waged. Evolution in such all too common pictures is shown as the foundation for everything from Homosexuality and marital break down to Racism and Abortion. While Creationism flying the "good flag" of Christianity is shown as the pure forces of good in opposition.

If you can make a religious public believe Evolution is the foundation of such societal ills (or perceived ills) then no amount of evidence and rationality is going to push acceptance of it past the barriers such people will erect around their critical faculties.

It is perfectly possible to be a theist and accept Evolution. Kenneth Miller is the poster boy of that fact... a Champion of Evolution and a devout catholic. However the general public over there have been convinced it is an either or choice and given that choice very many of them will choose their religion over a single science theory.

The creationists such as those furtively working away in the "discovery institute" clearly have no facts or evidence on their side. One has to be in some awe of their propaganda machine though. Their "teach the controversy" approach for example was a work of some genius.

jmayo

Ellis Dee wrote: »

...
And on the subject of creationism and how many Americans believe in it, if I recall correctly, a very significant proportion of the total population in that benighted country firmly believe that they have at some time been abducted by aliens!:rolleyes:

That actually always made me wonder.
Why was there more sightings, more abductions in the US ?
Was it that aliens only bothered with countries in the New World ?
But then how come Aussies, Kiwis, Brazilians, etc were not being abducted ?

Then I watched Independence Day and finally all the pieces fitted together.

Actually abductions are probably down over the last decade due to fact alien spacecraft can no longer fit the increasing girth of the average American.

Overheal

It always astounds me to read these metrics but every once in a while I come across ultrachurch types who just make you think 'wow'.

The majority of people though who probably believe this are normal working people. I know a few people I work with who I could class as being faithful but never once had it brought up so I couldn't say whether they were creationists or not; and these aren't dumb people.

I am beginning to postulate most of it simply has to do with strong church participation. within a mile of me, I know of 3 churches, and one being constructed. On my commute to the technical college, a dozen more on a 12 mile drive. Oh and that Charleston Southern University: where Jesus and Bachelors Degrees intertwine.

And of the people I know who are church goers they're very serious about it. Not really even so much the system of beliefs (but that too) but they get that whole "this is OUR community" mindset. So they go - religiously. When you have those kind of influences in your early life and these are strong influences, I can see why it would be hard to shake. It's not quite the same in Catholicism where it's more about your relationship with Jesus or the Communion, and they feel like once they splash you at birth they just closed a sale and they feel like they don't have to keep trying anymore. Mind, thats only from my observations.

Thing about it for me is even if you find out someone is a creationist theres really not much point in trying to argue it. case and point. So fortunately the subject rarely if ever arises.

Einhard

Ciaran0 wrote: »

I prefer to think that a whopping % of Americans are undereducated, rather then plain stupid. It gives me more hope that in the future things could change.

Good point.

How about this then:

A whopping % of Americans are under-enlightened. :cool:

Biggins

Did someone mention that religious teachings (including creationism) should be allowed in schools?

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3964/freedomofreligionforsch.jpg

O' wait, we (the USA) must only allow the ones that the Vatican says is the right ones!

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8369/093billywinshisfirstcre.jpg

Einhard

Biggins wrote: »

O' wait, we (the USA) must only allow the ones that the Vatican says is the right ones!

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8369/093billywinshisfirstcre.jpg

Actually, many of the religious right in America despise the Vatican. And AFAIK, the Vatican accepts Darwin's theories.

Pedant

My head hurt. I'm just going to say it was god because thinking about that doesn't hurt my brain as much. Praise Jebus.

Pedant

Einhard wrote: »

Biggins wrote: »

O' wait, we (the USA) must only allow the ones that the Vatican says is the right ones!

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8369/093billywinshisfirstcre.jpg

Actually, many of the religious right in America despise the Vatican. And AFAIK, the Vatican accepts Darwin's theories.

Some really really conservative protestant churches seriously believe that the Pope is the Anti-Christ and that the Vatican is the Whore of Babylon. I think Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterian Church believes something along those lines.

Duggys Housemate

Biggins wrote: »

Did someone mention that religious teachings (including creationism) should be allowed in schools?

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3964/freedomofreligionforsch.jpg

O' wait, we (the USA) must only allow the ones that the Vatican says is the right ones!

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8369/093billywinshisfirstcre.jpg

The Vatican? The Vatican and Mary Harny and Bertie Ahern you mean, if you are thanks whoring.

Have we not established that this is the protestant bible belt? That Catholic schools teach evolution, something you may remember from your own schooling.

Biggins

Einhard wrote: »

Actually, many of the religious right in America despise the Vatican. And AFAIK, the Vatican accepts Darwin's theories.

Easy to understand why they might despise the Vatican.
Also good to hear that the Vatican after centuries of denying science, have been (probably forced) to come around to sense.
The Vatican previously was long hostile to Darwin (for over 150 years!!!) because his theory conflicted with the literal biblical account of creation.
(They finally had to submit and make a statement in 2008 about how Darwin might be right!)

As yet, they have still not apologised for their earlier negative views and in fact many attempts at rubbish Darwin.

Meanwhile others, mostly conservative Protestants in the United States, read Genesis literally and object to evolution being taught in biology class in public high schools.

The Vatican now espouses "theistic evolution," a stand that accepts evolution as a scientific theory and sees no reason why God could not have used a natural evolutionary process in the forming of the human species.

It objects to using evolution as the basis for an atheist philosophy that denies God's existence or any divine role in creation.

In a blatant attempt to stay relevant and supposedly in touch, they are now grudgingly reversing and even claiming that Darwin's theory of evolution was God's original tool for creation!
(So much for those 150+ years when they said THEY were RIGHT and Darwin was wrong!)

* When they can try getting away with a lie - they will try it.

* When its exposed that the crap they have spouted is just that, pure crap, they then change story - and then twist long acknowledged facts to their own means.

---

Short version:

* Anything we say is right - got it?
Don't question us!

* But if we are shown up to be wrong, we, the Vatican retain the right to reverse our position and even then claim our god has a hand in what we opposed in the first place!

Vatican PR spinning at its professional best.

joseph brand

smash wrote: »

I didn't realise that high a percentage were retarded.

They're morbidly obese too.

Fatarded. :pac:

philologos

the_syco wrote: »

I think I met two. They were unable to answer where dinosaurs came from, or when they existed.

There's another option though isn't there? - That people are simply mistaken and misinformed on that particular issue.

Surely the best option in that case isn't ridicule and contempt, but actually a gracious hand towards them to help them see things in a different light?

I think that's what I'd like to see more. Particularly within Christian circles I think there needs to be more people willing to open up the Bible with YEC's and discuss the ins and outs of Genesis and discuss about the basics of Darwinian evolution.

That would be the caring thing to do as far as I can tell.

Biggins: Except there's a problem with that. Earlier Christians such as Origen of Jerusalem, Augustine of Hippo and Aquinas questioned a literal reading of Genesis 1 and 2 long before Charles Darwin was even around. Actually, I would go even as far as to say that history seems to show that Young Earth Creationism is a much newer position. James Ussher put the earth at 6,000 years old in the 17th century.

Spread

Einhard wrote: »

Actually, many of the religious right in America despise the Vatican. And AFAIK, the Vatican accepts Darwin's theories.

Once you believe that when God finally mutated Homo Sapiens to Human ..... he installed a soul.

hooradiation

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The Vatican? The Vatican and Mary Harny and Bertie Ahern you mean, if you are thanks whoring.

Have we not established that this is the protestant bible belt? That Catholic schools teach evolution, something you may remember from your own schooling.

Let the facts get in the way of some populist rabble rousing? Perish the thought.

Biggins

philologos wrote: »

...Earlier Christians such as Origen of Jerusalem, Augustine of Hippo and Aquinas questioned a literal reading of Genesis 1 and 2 long before Charles Darwin was even around.

...And fair play to them for doing it! Kudos to them!
Had they tried it later down the line, I suspect they might have been ordered to silence by Rome like our current lot under such punishment.

Duggys Housemate

Biggins wrote: »

Easy to understand why they might despise the Vatican.
Also good to hear that the Vatican after centuries of denying science, have been (probably forced) to come around to sense.
The Vatican previously was long hostile to Darwin (for over 150 years!!!) because his theory conflicted with the literal biblical account of creation.
(They finally had to submit and make a statement in 2008 about how Darwin might be right!)

Nonsense, it was never hostile to Darwin.

As yet, they have still not apologised for their earlier negative views and in fact many attempts at rubbish Darwin.

The Catholic church said nothing officially on evolution for 100 years, the moved to Theistic evolution which means evolution i.e. we descended from Apes but God set it off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution

* When they can try getting away with a lie - they will try it.

* When its exposed that the crap they have spouted is just that, pure crap, they then change story - and then twist long acknowledged facts to their own means.

The vatican obviously doesn't change its mind so often, cf Gay marriage. So it didn't believe in evolution to begin with, it wouldn't now. But it always has. A Catholic could easily become a teacher of evolutionary theory and not be in conflict with his beliefs or the science, as he doesn't have to talk about who set off the big bang. This is hardly young earth creationism.

Basically you are, as usual, doing your typical taxi driver rant, devoid of knowledge or facts. When called on your stupidity you double up your attack. This thread is about America, and Protestant American, and bible belt America. When you said the Vatican made em do it - that time you were called up on that link? - that was the time to get out.