France cuts retirement age to 60

MrMatisse

In these austere times where we must work harder for less in order to be good europeans who dont overspend and pay back the debts of banks in order to ensure fiscal stability and save the euro its good to see the French also taking the rough economic situation seriously:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9314666/French-president-Francois-Hollande-cuts-retirement-age.html

By cutting the retirement age to 60.

So we pay back their banks who lent to our banks so they can retire at 60............excellent well that makes sense...

DEFTLEFTHAND

Aren't we increasing ours to 68 or something?

smash

Meanwhile in Ireland, we're suckered into an older retirement age. Nice!

MrMatisse

Indeed, we will be paying back all that debt, much to French banks, as we work on to near 70, while they sit on their arse from 60

Mrs Garth Brooks

Can we all just move to france?

Scioch

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Aren't we increasing ours to 68 or something?

Retire from what though ? The dole ?

woodoo

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Aren't we increasing ours to 68 or something?

And barely a whisper from the Irish. Are we drugged or something??

smash

LordSmeg wrote: »

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Aren't we increasing ours to 68 or something?

Retire from what though ? The dole ?

Well we're not all on the dole you know.

Pottler

Sure why not, Ze Paddies signed up to give em billions, haugheyhaughey ha. France knew the whole "being a bondholder" thing would come good, it's just come goodier than they expected - hey lads, it worked, we can retire early, hurrah. No No, not you Mick, you've repayments etc, keep making them Pills, gotta pay them bills..

Ghandee

Lucky fcukers.

Let's not begrudge them, pity Etna and Phyllis wouldn't grow a pair and introduce such laws here.

syklops

I for one will not be relying on the state pension, and will therefore hopefully retire when ever I want. I don't want a Minister for Finance 50 years my Junior dictating how much pocket money per week I can have.

That said, I can't imagine what I would do all day so will probably just keep working in some manner, just with more naps during the day.

Scioch

smash wrote: »

Well we're not all on the dole you know.

Not yet, but we're gettin there.

syklops

Come to think of it its not such a bad idea. Allow the older and getting a bit decrepit ones to retire, allowing young fit and alert, not to mention computer literate people to take their jobs. Might mean more productivity.

galwayrush

Don't we retire some people off in their 50's with massive pensions, and then rehire them again ?

dr.bollocko

I can't believe thierry henry gets to retire at 60.

Even after the handball that's a slap in the face.

jased10s

finish morgage repayment @72 , so i say raise the working age !

Gbear

Domo230 wrote: »

Dont begrudge them. It's a good thing that France is fighting for a better quality of life for it's citizens.

Well yeah, except that social welfare doesn't work if there aren't enough people working to pay for it. It becomes a pyramid scheme.

brummytom

Sensible decision.

Getting rid of the retirement age in this country has let to the ridiculous state that we're in where 80 year olds are still doing jobs they're not really capable of in the name of 'age equality' to save the state paying their pensions, but the state are paying out even more in unemployment benefit to the millions of young people who can't get the jobs that the old people won't let go of.

Biggins

woodoo wrote: »

And barely a whisper from the Irish. Are we drugged or something??

No, just too compliant and complacent.

If people speak up "Aaa... they must be trouble makers! Radicals!!!" according to some.
...And those that don't say anything except moan between themselves from their bar stools "Jeasus Joe, you'd think someone would do sometha about it!"

ShooterSF

brummytom wrote: »

Sensible decision.

Getting rid of the retirement age in this country has let to the ridiculous state that we're in where 80 year olds are still doing jobs they're not really capable of in the name of 'age equality' to save the state paying their pensions, but the state are paying out even more in unemployment benefit to the millions of young people who can't get the jobs that the old people won't let go of.

Unlike this country then where for some unknown reason an unemployed 30 year old needs less to get by than an 80 year old pensioner.

Scioch

Biggins wrote: »

No, just too compliant and complacent.

If people speak up "Aaa... they must be trouble makers! Radicals!!!" according to some.
...And those that don't say anything except moan between themselves from their bar stools "Jeasus Joe, you'd think someone would do sometha about it!"

Yeah but we are in an awkward position of not knowing what to do, the government threatening doom and Armageddon if we dont accept their plan. Opposition harping on about standing up for your rights while putting forward very little in the way of a credible alternative.

I voted SF/ULA in the general election because I liked what they were saying. I said here's a crowd for the average Joe, wanting TD wages to be cut, stopping the repayment of bondholders and a load of other stuff I agreed with and felt should happen. But where's the long term plan ? Where is the alternative other than "tell Germany to fcuk themselves, demand the money and pray they dont eject us from the euro."

People need to have some direction in which to go and although the opposition parties are increasing in popularity they have done nothing in the way of coming up with a route out of the mess we are in.

What do we reject and what do we accept ? Nobody knows. We need to know what we want and have an idea of how to achieve it before we can reject something in these uncertain times.

IngazZagni

Awful decision. France will live to regret this in a few years. All this will do is increase taxes/worker contributions in order to pay for the millions extra this will cost them. France already has huge tax bills and this will make things even worse.

Aka Ishur

Anyone who thinks this is a good idea needs to look again. This is just a stunt fianna fail would be proud of. Hollande has no idea what to do and just wants to be seen doing something for the sake of it. Buying popularity is all it is.

Some may think its a good thing that all these 'old' people are being cleared out so young can take their places. This may make the employment rate fall but it is by no means job creation, just replacing older, usally higher paid, higher taxed workers with lower paid, lower taxed.

On top this has to be paid by those working and the ratio needs to be reduced not increased. In Spain the 'dependancy ratio' (the ratio of retired and school age to those working age) has passed 6:1! Which means 6 people need to be paid from the taxes of one working person....and thats at full employment.

The only way of getting out of this recession is a three pronged approach.

1) Cut the price of government, via cutting welfare 30%, cutting public service (management, not front line,) cutting tds by 30% to reduce the rate of parish pump politics and the emergence of the various gombeen tds, merging councils.

2) Raise the tax on high incomes to 45% matching the uk rather than cause an exodus

3) A serious effort at creating jobs, highlighted by cutting the costs. Rates need to be slashed, insurance needs to be easier to get and tax breaks for start ups would be welcome and low cost.

Biggins

LordSmeg wrote: »

...We need to know what we want and have an idea of how to achieve it before we can reject something in these uncertain times.

Sadly it appears even from FG that they don't have a long term plan but are only reacting on a day to day basis.

A number of leading businessmen have told the Sunday Independent that Communications Minister Pat Rabbitte has said that the Government is unable to formulate a plan to deal with the economy such is the speed and ever-changing nature of the crisis.

In an alarmingly frank admission, which was made on condition of confidentiality, Mr Rabbitte is said to have stated that the Government has been pre-occupied with challenges as they arise and has not managed to construct a strategy for recovery in the medium to long term.

Mr Rabbitte asked that his remarks, which were made at a luncheon attended by figures drawn primarily from the energy sector, not be repeated outside of the meeting.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pat-rabbitte-denies-saying-government-has-no-plan-3112769.html

To be fair, with things now changing day to day maybe, its is difficult but there should be some sort of even basic plan by our supposed better/masters.

Einhard

I realise this seems quite appealing to people, but how exactly is this kind of thing supposed to be financed in the long term? When pensions were first introduced, the average life expectancy was actually lower than the retirement age. Now, the average person can expect to live two decades after they've retired. With this now policy in France, the average middle aged French person can expect over two decades of their penison, while the average 18 year old can expect closer to four. With an ageing population, that's simply not sustainable. I hate to rain on the parade, but it's an increddibly shortsighted policy, and likely introduced with an eye to parliamentary elections this month. A lot of Ireland's problems have traditionally been caused by a shortsighted approach to the issues of the day. And it appears that such shortsightedness seems to be both the order of the day here in boards, and in the higher levels of power in France. Which is a pity. I'd have thought we'd have learned something over the years.

Scioch

Biggins wrote: »

Sadly it appears even from FG that they don't have a long term plan but are only reacting on a day to day basis.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pat-rabbitte-denies-saying-government-has-no-plan-3112769.html

See, nobody knows whats happening. How can people figure out where we are suppose to be going ? If I knew which way we needed to go I'd be more inclined to try stop the government going in the direction they are going (whatever direction that is). I'm assuming a lot of others feel the same, its just a mass of confusion.

Biggins

LordSmeg wrote: »

...its just a mass of confusion.

With France and Germany now at loggerheads with themselves in some aspects, it certainly don't ease either the markets and/or the situation.

Einhard

Just an interesting point: Frannce last ran a budget surplus in 1974.

That's a shocking statistic. Why do people continue to think that they can continue to borrow and spend and borrow and spend with no day of reckoning?

Guy:Incognito

Nothing is stopping anyone retireing at any age they wish. They just wont get a state pension. If you can provide your own pension go ahead and retire at 60 if you like.


What happens in France when people start regularly livign to 100? How can you sustain people drawing a pension for as long as they were paying tax?
Thats not sustainable.

EDIT, Einhard beat me to it. :-)

Biggins

Einhard wrote: »

Just an interesting point: Frannce last ran a budget surplus in 1974.

That's a shocking statistic. Why do people continue to think that they can continue to borrow and spend and borrow and spend with no day of reckoning?

Like Ireland had too 'many eggs in the basket' of just around the building/property industry, I suspect France (and Germany?) now is finding out that their economy too was based on future quicksand.

Sierra Oscar

Biggins wrote: »

Like Ireland had too 'many eggs in the basket' of just around the building/property industry, I suspect France (and Germany?) now is finding out that their economy too was based on future quicksand.

France will be some sight to behold when Hollande finishes his term in office.

Biggins

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

France will be some sight to behold when Hollande finishes his term in office.

Indeed.
Things are certainly (by the looks of things) going to get interesting and possibly more lively!

Einhard

Biggins wrote: »

Like Ireland had too 'many eggs in the basket' of just around the building/property industry, I suspect France (and Germany?) now is finding out that their economy too was based on future quicksand.

Reducing the retirement age to 60 will exacerbate their problems in the long run.

Biggins

Einhard wrote: »

Reducing the retirement age to 60 will exacerbate their problems in the long run.

I'm far from an expert in this field so I'll take others thoughts on-board myself.

I think China to some degree is having or will be facing a somewhat similar problem.

Einhard

Biggins wrote: »

I'm far from an expert in this field so I'll take others thoughts on-board myself.

I don't think one has to be an expert to realise that an inreasing number of pensioners who live longer, and a reducing number of workers paying an ever increasing amount to fund pensions isn't exactly a recipe for economic harmony.

Biggins

Einhard wrote: »

I don't think one has to be an expert to realise that an inreasing number of pensioners who live longer, and a reducing number of workers paying an ever increasing amount to fund pensions isn't exactly a recipe for economic harmony.

There is truth in that, well explained in short terms.

Stinicker

The lower the retirement age the better, it frees up jobs for young people, it is an absolute disgrace that our young people have to emigrate to find work when some old geezer can coast along on the gravy train doing practically nothing until he/she reaches 65. Lower the retirment age, let us young people have jobs and pay taxes and let the old people have a retirement and enjoy their sunset years in dignity after slaving for long enough.

Biggins

Stinicker wrote: »

The lower the retirement age the better, it frees up jobs for young people, it is an absolute disgrace that our young people have to emigrate to find work when some old geezer can coast along on the gravy train doing practically nothing until he/she reaches 65. Lower the retirment age, let us young people have jobs and pay taxes and let the old people have a retirement and enjoy their sunset years in dignity after slaving for long enough.

You have a point but to be fair, some elderly now have to still keep working due to new taxes on water and/or their homes, besides other bills which might be increasing.
We should at least be mindful of that aspect too.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

yeah, let's arbitrarily force all the experienced workers to leave their jobs so we can routinely hire people who havent got a clue what they are doing but were born in a more fashionable decade
hooray for progress, hooray

Skerries

the new retirement for Irish people at 67? who does that affect?

Guy:Incognito

Stinicker wrote: »

The lower the retirement age the better, it frees up jobs for young people, it is an absolute disgrace that our young people have to emigrate to find work when some old geezer can coast along on the gravy train doing practically nothing until he/she reaches 65. Lower the retirment age, let us young people have jobs and pay taxes and let the old people have a retirement and enjoy their sunset years in dignity after slaving for long enough.

What pays for the running of the country when you've say 2m people working on one side and 2m people drawing pensions on the other?

If you pay €200 a week in tax ,without a break between the ages of 20 and 60, then draw a pension between 60 and 100, you've contributed 0 in tax throughout your life.

Guy:Incognito

Skerries wrote: »

the new retirement for Irish people at 67? who does that affect?

People aged 67.

Einhard

Stinicker wrote: »

The lower the retirement age the better, it frees up jobs for young people, it is an absolute disgrace that our young people have to emigrate to find work when some old geezer can coast along on the gravy train doing practically nothing until he/she reaches 65. Lower the retirment age, let us young people have jobs and pay taxes and let the old people have a retirement and enjoy their sunset years in dignity after slaving for long enough.

It frees up jobs for young people who then start their careers on lower wages, paying less taxes than those they replaced, and having to fund a pension system that pays out for three to four decades of a person's life.

It's basic maths for God's sake!

Suryavarman

Domo230 wrote: »

Dont begrudge them. It's a good thing that France is fighting for a better quality of life for it's citizens.

Fighting for a better quality of life for its citizens by enacting a policy that is going to result in enormous economic difficulties for France in the future?

This policy is going to result on much higher taxes on already over taxed young workers. State pension systems are destined for failure as the worker to pensioner ratio continues to fall.

If Hollande really wanted to improve the quality of life of Frances citizens then it would privatise its pension system. This would allow the people of France to enjoy a more financially secure retirement and a more productive economy due to the increased investment such a policy would bring.

The sole purpose of this policy is to make Socialist Party politicians more financially secure by bribing the biggest voting block.

ilovesleep

If they start hassling us about our corporation tax, that we must up it to match Europe, it will only be fair that we hassle them over this issue and demand that they match our retirement age of 68.

But enda is a cock sucker willing to bend over too easily.

buckleppin

Einhard wrote: »

Just an interesting point: Frannce last ran a budget surplus in 1974.

That's a shocking statistic. Why do people continue to think that they can continue to borrow and spend and borrow and spend with no day of reckoning?

Because government debt works differently to household debt. There is no day of reckoning because as long as your tax base grows faster than your debt, the debt is not a problem. Nations aren't like people: they don't die and they have some say over currency. Unemployment does far more damage in both the short and long term that running a budget deficit.

Regarding the tax base, it's not as if these retiring experienced professionals are being replaced by people straight from the dole queue. Everyone moves up a step in the chain. The turnover happens a little more quickly. If the average career span is shortened, will that see an increase in wages? If there are less workers available and you know you need to earn more to sustain a longer retirement?

It's a tricky balancing act but again, I'd rather see young people employed, paying taxes, giving back the state's investment in them via education than older people staying on in their jobs a few more years while unemployment and emigration continue.

Battered Mars Bar

Well done to the Yes voters, thanks for being so much more intelligent than I and having a greater moral fibre...I know I'm scum and I probably support Sinn Fein too, boo.

Guy:Incognito

Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Well done to the Yes voters, thanks for being so much more intelligent than I and having a greater moral fibre...I know I'm scum and I probably support Sinn Fein too, boo.

Many seemed well able to make coherant points, so your behind on that score already anyway.

Battered Mars Bar

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Many seemed well able to make coherant points, so your behind on that score already anyway.

I don't believe this is the thread for it

charlemont

60 is far too young to retire.

So average person in France will have 13 years of school, 4 of university, 38 of working and 20 retired. They'll spend longer being supported by the state than working. I can see that being cheap.