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Atheism to defeat religion by 2038?

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    #662
    Opticom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Opticom


    opticom wrote:
    Are you trying to say that the only reason God can exist is because belief exists ?
    smash wrote: »
    No

    Good, I'm glad you realise that it possible for God to exist independently of belief/non belief.
    smash wrote: »
    No, I'm trying to say that the only reason there's a belief is because of the bible.

    That does not make sense, the bible is not the only belief in God


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    #663
    Opticom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Opticom


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Ok. I've had enough of your trolling now. Isn't there a pointless survey you should be badly drawing up?

    Asking for evidence is not trolling, if you've got some good, if not well . . . .


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    #664
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Opticom wrote: »
    Good, I'm glad you realise that it possible for God to exist independently of belief/non belief.
    I never said that.
    Opticom wrote: »
    That does not make sense, the bible is not the only belief in God
    You do not make sense, full stop. And yes, the bible is the only reason for someone to believe in god, because without it you would be none the wiser.


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    #665
    Opticom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Opticom


    smash wrote: »
    I never said that.

    You do not make sense, full stop. And yes, the bible is the only reason for someone to believe in god, because without it you would be none the wiser.

    How is the bible the only reason for someone to believe in God ?


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    #666
    Skrynesaver
    Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Skrynesaver


    Opticom wrote: »
    Never mind all the other forms of belief in God ?

    Are you trying to say that the only reason God can exist is because belief exists ?

    That's your evidence for claiming that God cannot exist ?

    You are the one claiming that something exists, prove it. The evidence for the absence of a god or gods is the absence of evidence for god...but as a rational child of the scientific age, if evidence of a god is found, I'd be perfectly willing to acknowledge the same.

    Note that evidence is not tradition nor simplistic stories that cover the holes in our knowledge.


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    #667
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Opticom wrote: »
    How is the bible the only reason for someone to believe in God ?

    Because it's the root source of the story. Do you not get that?


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    #668
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    smash wrote: »
    Because it's the root source of the story. Do you not get that?

    Apparently the fact that the belief in the existence of the Christian God is based entirely on the contents of a specific book has escaped him.


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    #669
    Shenshen
    Registered Users Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Opticom wrote: »
    How is the bible the only reason for someone to believe in God ?

    Without it, how would you know who you belive in?

    If you need evidence, just look around for how many Christians there were in the Americas before Columbus arrived with the "good book"....


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    #670
    Andrewf20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,194 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    Opticom wrote: »
    How is the bible the only reason for someone to believe in God ?

    A God could possibly exist with or without the bible. For non believers though its a case of - are we beyond resonable doubt in relation to his existance? For them the answer is no.


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    #671
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    I didn't realise they were fighting.


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    #672
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Shenshen wrote: »
    just look around for how many Christians there were in the Americas before Columbus arrived with the "good book"....

    ....and heavily armed conquistadores.


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    #673
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Ah, the twin gifts of Christianity and disease-riddled blankets. Both gifts that just keep on giving.


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    #674
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Sarky wrote: »
    Ah, the twin gifts of Christianity and disease-riddled blankets. Both gifts that just keep on giving.

    but...but...God made the world which means God made the gold so it was only fitting that their Catholic Spanish Majesties had the Gold so they could use it to wipe out heresy...and Muslims...and Jews....and the people who owned the gold...for the glory of God.

    And (some) of those who were killed out be ok after all, as long as they accepted God as their saviour they would live forever on his right hand just as soon as they finished being burned to death and when eventually they got out of purgatory for committing sins they didn't know were sins as they hadn't read the handbook yet.


    Mysterious ways remember.


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    #675
    Opticom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Opticom


    Skrynesaver wrote: »
    You are the one claiming that something exists, prove it. The evidence for the absence of a god or gods is the absence of evidence for god...but as a rational child of the scientific age, if evidence of a god is found, I'd be perfectly willing to acknowledge the same.

    Note that evidence is not tradition nor simplistic stories that cover the holes in our knowledge.

    Thanks, Philip.

    "The evidence for the absence of a god or gods is the absence of evidence"

    absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, it never has been, and it never will.


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    #676
    Opticom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Opticom


    smash wrote: »
    Because it's the root source of the story. Do you not get that?

    As Andrew says :
    Andrewf20 wrote: »
    A God could possibly exist with or without the bible.


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    #677
    Opticom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Opticom


    Andrewf20 wrote: »
    A God could possibly exist with or without the bible. For non believers though its a case of - are we beyond resonable doubt in relation to his existance? For them the answer is no.

    and that’s agnosticism, not atheism.

    I'm still looking for a good argument for atheism


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    #678
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Opticom wrote: »
    absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, it never has been, and it never will.
    There is zero proof to show existence. Can you accept that? If you can't, tell me where the evidence of existence is, and don't say the bible.


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    #679
    Shenshen
    Registered Users Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Opticom wrote: »
    and that’s agnosticism, not atheism.

    I'm still looking for a good argument for atheism

    Oh dear, here we go :

    Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge, or rather the availability thereof.
    A gnostic beliefs that we can know if god exists or not.
    An agnostic maintains that we cannot know this.

    Atheism is a statement about belief.
    A Theist believes in god, and atheist doesn't.

    You can have any combination of the above. Personally, I'm an agnostic atheist. I think we can never know for sure if god exists or not, but going by what I know I do not belief that he does.


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    #680
    Shenshen
    Registered Users Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Opticom wrote: »
    As Andrew says :

    Without the bible, how would you ever have heard of god?

    For all we know, there could be millions of gods around, who just weren't clever enough to have someone write a book about them.
    For the belief in the Abrahamic god, the books are essential. The religions would not exist without them. The beliefs would not exist without them.


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    #681
    Opticom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Opticom


    smash wrote: »
    There is zero proof to show existence. Can you accept that? If you can't, tell me where the evidence of existence is, and don't say the bible.

    I'm seeking evidence, or even a good argument for atheism, not theism, so have you got any ?


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    #682
    Opticom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Opticom


    Shenshen wrote: »
    Without the bible, how would you ever have heard of god?

    For all we know, there could be millions of gods around, who just weren't clever enough to have someone write a book about them.
    For the belief in the Abrahamic god, the books are essential. The religions would not exist without them. The beliefs would not exist without them.

    Atheism is a far broader claim than just the Abrahamic god.

    An entity can easily exist without man, or man believing that it does.

    I'm asking for evidence for the atheist position.


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    #683
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    There should be a special report button for people who go full retard.


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    #684
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I'm not sure you realise how stupid your question is, Opticom.


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    #685
    Shenshen
    Registered Users Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Opticom wrote: »
    I'm seeking evidence, or even a good argument for atheism, not theism, so have you got any ?

    How about the fact that you yourself are in fact an atheist?

    Unless you want to affirm that you in fact believe in the existence and powers of Zeus, Hera, Hephaistos, Thor, Pachamama, John Frum or Ameterasu, to name but a few?


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    #686
    Shenshen
    Registered Users Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Opticom wrote: »
    Atheism / agnosticism / deism / theism is not just about the Abrahamic god.

    An entity can easily exist without man, or man believing that it does.

    I'm asking for evidence for the atheist position.

    Why would you ask for evidence for the non-existence of something that has never been observed in the first place?
    May I direct your to Russell's Teapot?


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    #687
    Andrewf20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,194 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    Opticom wrote: »
    and that’s agnosticism, not atheism.

    I'm still looking for a good argument for atheism

    I see what you are getting at and I agree, that a statement that says "God does not exist" hold little water. However if someone says "I believe God does not exist" thats a different matter and a fair position to hold.

    Atheism is not "no Gods exist". Atheism is "I believe no God exists".

    A good argument for atheism is therefore "I believe no God exists because I am not convinced beyond reasonable doubt that he/she/it exists".

    Heres a very good video:



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    #688
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Not really. It's a lack of belief in gods, not a belief in the non-existence of gods. It's an important difference. I don't like Bovril, but that doesn't mean I have to hate it. I don't watch football, but that doesn't mean I only watch rugby. I don't respond angrily to Opticom's posts, but that doesn't mean I think he's a good troll.


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    #689
    Opticom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Opticom


    Shenshen wrote: »
    How about the fact that you yourself are in fact an atheist?

    Unless you want to affirm that you in fact believe in the existence and powers of Zeus, Hera, Hephaistos, Thor, Pachamama, John Frum or Ameterasu, to name but a few?

    Since when was atheism a claim that only certain gods do not exist ?

    Atheism is a much broader claim than that, and I'm looking for atheism to present some evidence or even a good argument.


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    #690
    Shenshen
    Registered Users Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Opticom wrote: »
    Since when was atheism a claim that only certain gods do not exist ?

    Atheism is a much broader claim than that, and I'm looking for atheism to present some evidence or even a good argument.

    Er, no it isn't. Atheism is simply the non-believe in supernatural deities. You yourself do not believe in most of the deities parts of humanity have believed in at one time or another, or in fact still do believe in. Which makes you mostly atheist.

    I think your frustration with finding any argument for your own idea of atheism might well stem from the fact that nobody else shares that idea.


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    #691
    Opticom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Opticom


    Andrewf20 wrote: »
    I see what you are getting at and I agree, that a statement that says "God does not exist" hold little water. However if someone says "I believe God does not exist" thats a different matter and a fair position to hold.

    Atheism is not "no Gods exist". Atheism is "I believe no God exists".

    A good argument for atheism is therefore "I believe no God exists becasue I am not convinced beyond reasonable doubt that he/she/it exists".


    And I'm asking for evidence, or at least a good argument, for that belief/non belief


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