Atheism to defeat religion by 2038?

shizz

guitarzero wrote: »

Yep, we should probably ban money too.

prinz wrote: »

Let's do away with politics too! Hurray.

There's no doubt that money has caused many people to do evil things, but it's not something that can be done away with and it certainly doesn't "tell" people to do things.

In many parts of the world, including the western world religion highly affects politics.

philologos

smash wrote: »

philologos, it's nice to see that you're ignoring the facts put forward to you regarding the link between Christianity and witches/vampires etc even though you disputed it earlier.

What facts? The Bible doesn't mention vampires . It does mention what the law of Israel was in respect to the paranormal. I've conceded that already.

It seems that a lot of atheists / skeptics aren't interested in finding out the truth about what the Bible really does say. If that's the case, well done, but I'm more interested in dealing with what's actually true.

guitarzero

For anyone to rank religion as a key dilemma in american politics is sorely misguided.

prinz

shizz wrote: »

There's no doubt that money has caused many people to do evil things, but it's not something that can be done away with and it certainly doesn't "tell" people to do things..

First it was 'influence', now it's 'tell'......by the by I've never been told to do anything untoward or evil by religion.. am I not doing it right?

Pushtrak

philologos wrote: »

As I've said already, we could do this by copy and pasting random websites on the internet, or we could discuss it. Which do you want to do?

You made claims as to the positions of particular theologians when it comes to biblical literacy. Having a "Oh no they didn't" "Oh yes they did" "Oh no they didn't" wasn't going to be very productive. So I decided to inject a "Oh no they didn't, look at this.."

At this point in the discussion, you might be advised to seek something that contradicts that site rather than saying "Oh I don't like that site." A view on a site that it is unreliable surely indicates more reliable sites are easy to find. To back up a position. As this is more than just I say, you say. We need to get to the facts. Or I'd rather that were the case.

smash

philologos wrote: »

What facts? The Bible doesn't mention vampires . It does mention what the law of Israel was in respect to the paranormal. I've conceded that already.

It seems that a lot of atheists / skeptics aren't interested in finding out the truth about what the Bible really does say. If that's the case, well done, but I'm more interested in dealing with what's actually true.

You said it was all down to horror movies, and it wasn't. You're changing your argument now.

joseph brand

guitarzero wrote: »

I'm an atheist. I could not give a f*ck if people are religious. I dont know why atheists get so bothered. There are so many bigger issues in the world than people gathering at a mosque, kneeling in a church or even picketing against homosexuals in Tennessee.

I suppose part of it is looking out for your fellow man who is being made a fool of. If your friend was spending a small fortune on psychics would you just 'mind your own business'?

Also, suicide bombers, many of whom are children IS a big issue.

Let's not forget Romney, the crazy mormon whack-job running for President of the US. If he hadn't won the candidacy, there were a few christian looneys there to take his place. Their election campaigns were highly religious, which would be hilarious if it weren't so scary.

Keep religion to yourself and keep it out of my business! (not directed at you of course)

hooradiation

guitarzero wrote: »

For anyone to rank religion as a key dilemma in american politics is sorely misguided.

idk, after citizens united it's pretty fucking high up there.

philologos

smash wrote: »

You said it was all down to horror movies, and it wasn't. You're changing your argument now.

No I'm not, I already conceded that the Bible refers to the paranormal / occult / witchcraft.

It doesn't refer to vampires, or holy water, or even holding a cross. That's a horror film

I don't know why people who clearly have no interest in what Christians actually believe, or in the Bible make up this kind of nonsense. This discussion seems pointless, it's pretty much atheists clapping themselves on the back. Well done, but there's a big difference between doing that and being concerned with what is really true.

smash

philologos wrote: »

It doesn't refer to vampires, or holy water, or even holding a cross. That's a horror film

I don't know why people who clearly have no interest in what Christians actually believe, or in the Bible make up this kind of nonsense.

I stated they were religious beliefs and not just from horror movies and you disputed it. I posted evidence and you ignored it.

shizz

prinz wrote: »

First it was 'influence', now it's 'tell'......by the by I've never been told to do anything untoward or evil by religion.. am I not doing it right?

It depends on the religion. Stories in the bible, particularly the Old Testament could influence people to do something considering the "God" was condoning it.

Where as another, or the same religion really, could straight out say that people who don't follow said God should be punished.

I'm obviously not saying that you have but to think that it hasn't to other people, or doesn't have the ability is naive.

flutterflye

philologos wrote: »

No I'm not, I already conceded that the Bible refers to the paranormal / occult / witchcraft.

It doesn't refer to vampires, or holy water, or even holding a cross. That's a horror film

I don't know why people who clearly have no interest in what Christians actually believe, or in the Bible make up this kind of nonsense.

Horror films didn't create vampires.
They date back to at least the middle ages.
People used to think that people who had lived a bad life came back from the dead as vampires, so they pinned their dead bodies to their graves with wodden stakes.
They were mainly pagen beliefs as far as I know.

philologos

smash: None of your posts thus far have been based on "evidence". That doesn't tell me that the Bible says anything about vampires, which is a valid point. Nothing Jesus, or any of the apostles said mention vampires.

If a few guys in Greece were interested in the idea, fair dues to them, but it says nothing about Biblical Christianity.

With all due respect, it's nonsense.

flutterflye: That shows how much I know about the idea of vampires . I think I'll leave the vampire studies to the others. All I'm concerned with is are they mentioned in the Bible, or were they a formal part of traditional Christian belief. The answer is no they aren't. Yet people have claimed this.

smash

philologos wrote: »

smash: None of your posts thus far have been based on "evidence". That doesn't tell me that the Bible says anything about vampires, which is a valid point. Nothing Jesus, or any of the apostles said mention vampires.

And I never said it did, I said Christian beliefs.

One thing's for sure though, the bible invented zombies!

philologos wrote: »

All I'm concerned with is are they mentioned in the Bible, or were they a formal part of traditional Christian belief. The answer is no they aren't. Yet people have claimed this.

Read the link I posted earlier, it was a part of Christian belief that they were the spawn of Satan and could be killed by holy water and repelled by a cross.

Corkfeen

guitarzero wrote: »

For anyone to rank religion as a key dilemma in american politics is sorely misguided.

Only a few years ago there was a demand to teach Intelligent Design in the science syllabus or isn't that serious enough?

BigFatGiant

Tom Cruise and the Science weirdos will have us all killed by then. Scientology will rule the world. It will be great craic.

philologos

smash wrote: »

And I never said it did, I said Christian beliefs.

One thing's for sure though, the bible invented zombies!


Read the link I posted earlier, it was a part of Christian belief that they were the spawn of Satan and could be killed by holy water and repelled by a cross.

Wouldn't you agree though that it must get a little bit annoying when people tell you that you believe in vampires when the early church never believed in vampires, and when the Bible the main source of Christian belief doesn't present a belief in vampires?

Some people in Greece and other regions of Europe believed these things, this doesn't make this mainstream Christian belief.

I'm more than happy to accept that a few people in Greece believed these things. I'm not happy to accept that this was ever a major part of Christianity, because it's not true.

Sarky

When will Nozzie arrive, point out every time philologos has run away from evidence or awkward questions and pretend to have people in ignore and banish his evangelism until the next time he talks about Christianity being logical without ever providing anything within sniffing distance of logic?

prinz

shizz wrote: »

I'm obviously not saying that you have but to think that it hasn't to other people, or doesn't have the ability is naive.

Of course it has the ability, but so has many, many, many, many other things as mentioned, money, politics, the idea of a nation or a state, ethnicity, socio-economic background, drugs, gambling, alcohol, familial relationships, sex etc etc etc.

smash

philologos wrote: »

Wouldn't you agree though that it must get a little bit annoying when people tell you that you believe in vampires when the early church never believed in vampires, and when the Bible the main source of Christian belief doesn't present a belief in vampires?

But I don't believe in vampires. You see some christians used to, but then education helped them to learn that they can't be real. Education also helped a lot of people learn that the bible is not true.

philologos

smash wrote: »

But I don't believe in vampires. You see some christians used to, but then education helped them to learn that they can't be real. Education also helped a lot of people learn that the bible is not true.

Surprise, surprise neither do I

How do you explain the fact that highly educated people are still Christians then?

Duggys Housemate

Sarky wrote: »

When will Nozzie arrive, point out every time philologos has run away from evidence or awkward questions and pretend to have people in ignore and banish his evangelism until the next time he talks about Christianity being logical without ever providing anything within sniffing distance of logic?

Phillogos has not gone anywhere as far as I can see. He's been pointing out that vampires were never a concern of the church. What individual Christians believed is not relevant - Christianity was a thin shim over pagan beliefs for most of its history, certainly as a folk religion. So Irish peasants genuinely believed in both fairies and God, though fairies are not mentioned in the bible. On witches - which all cultures prosecute - there is little evidence of the Church getting involved until the fifteenth century, which means that the best time to be a witch was the middle ages; and most witch burning was protestant after that - i.e. Salam. I am struggling to find anybody killed in an inquisition in Ireland, or England, prior to Henry VIII. In fact you wanted to be tried in an ecclesiastical court, it was far more lenient than a secular court.

Whats also forgotten about the past is they killed people at the drop of a hat, for stealing the landlords chicken, for being a wilful child -seriously. And these capital laws increased until the nineteenth century, with the rise of a capitalistic monied class, and were reformed in part by Christians

Pushtrak

philologos wrote: »

How do you explain the fact that highly educated people are still Christians then?

Let us not forget there are many Christians who are young earth creationists. You recognise the errors in them. One can be wrong. Way off the deep end. And have strong convictions to the opposite.

philologos

Pushtrak wrote: »

Let us not forget there are many Christians who are young earth creationists. You recognise the errors in them. One can be wrong. Way off the deep end. And have strong convictions to the opposite.

People can be wrong in general. I'm sure you're aware, atheists can be wrong?

The point is that we should be trying to work out what is true by every and all means possible.

I'm more than aware, that I could be wrong. I don't claim to be infallible, and I have no interest in doing so . From my POV it isn't really about that anyway. It's about whether or not God is right, or the Bible is right. I believe that there are very good reasons why people can trust the Bible in the 21st century, and there are good reasons why people can believe and trust in Jesus and the Gospel in the 21st century.

af_thefragile

One can dream all they want.

Atheists keep on underestimating the power of faith...

IvySlayer

philologos wrote: »

Copying and pasting an article from a Young Earth Creationist website counts as "evidence"?

As opposed to people who read and accept what they read in the bible

MisterEpicurus

af_thefragile wrote: »

One can dream all they want.

Atheists keep on underestimating the power of faith...

If you replaced 'faith' with 'having no evidence' or 'wishful-thinking' then I would have thanked your post and as it would have been much more accurate.

keano_afc

Sarky wrote: »

When will Nozzie arrive, point out every time philologos has run away from evidence or awkward questions and pretend to have people in ignore and banish his evangelism until the next time he talks about Christianity being logical without ever providing anything within sniffing distance of logic?

Is he your God?

Duggys Housemate

But back to the original premise. The OP's post is - typical enough of the huffington post - mere wishful thinking. The correlation between secularism and GDP is probably the reverse - i.e. some forms of secularism caused wealth in Western Europe, and probably historically an accident. Its not universal. The US is richer than it was, including the South, and is getting more religious. The Saudis are not the poorest. Dubai is fairly rich, as it goes. Increases in oil prices, which make the middle east richer, don't make them less religious.

Which leaves the birth rates. There are defections from religious families in every generation, since being Amish is boring, the question is whether it is enough to counteract the very real fact that the birth rate of the Amish is much higher than secularists. Thats a mathematical problem, which it seems, is telling the reverse of the story of the Huff Post. They also missed immigration, and the nature of immigration, which is more religious than the countries taking the immigrants. There are, after all, people worrying about the Islamification of Europe, at the same time the atheists think they are taking over. The truth is some where in between, but I think we are secularisms high point. Of the 25 % of births to foreigners in London, are they born to more, or less religious families than the preceding generation of 20-40 year olds? I say more, and more to religious families more because they breed more. Future is religious, more likely.


EDIT: Oops sorry to get back on topic. I will now revert to modern atheist argumentation.

Faith is rubbish! Green Eyed Spaghetti monster! Sky Fairies are for idiots !!

IvySlayer

af_thefragile wrote: »

One can dream all they want.

Atheists keep on underestimating the power of faith...

Faith is blindly believing in something no matter what. The sooner it's the disease that is the Church is gone, the better.