Public Sector Unaccountability Vs Private Sector Criminality

SafeSurfer

The regulators, politicians and civil servants who failed the Irish people by allowing our economy to spectacularly crash are either still in their jobs or have retired with generous golden handshakes and pensions.

In the private sector those who have suffered from the fall out of the collapse have lost their jobs and businesses due to the public sector's mismanagement and are thrown to the wolves.

Have those responsible in senior positions of the public service got off very lightly from their role in the country's present predicament while any mistakes made by those in the private sector in dealing with the crises are met with calls of "jail him, jail him"?

Einhard

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Have those responsible in senior positions of the public service got off very lightly from their role in the country's present predicament while any mistakes made by those in the private sector in dealing with the crises are met with calls of "jail him, jail him"?

Yes. They have.

However, in a recent thread on Mick Wallace and his defrauding of the taxpayer of €1.5 million, your response was "Yawn". Which, to be honest, is part of the problem.

micropig

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The regulators, politicians and civil servants who failed the Irish people by allowing our economy to spectacularly crash are either still in their jobs or have retired with generous golden handshakes and pensions.

In the private sector those who have suffered from the fall out of the collapse have lost their jobs and businesses due to the public sector's mismanagement and are thrown to the wolves.

Have those responsible in senior positions of the public service got off very lightly from their role in the country's present predicament while any mistakes made by those in the private sector in dealing with the crises are met with calls of "jail him, jail him"?

Yes, Cronyism & nepotism;)

SafeSurfer

Einhard wrote: »

Yes. They have.

However, in a recent thread on Mick Wallace and his defrauding of the taxpayer of €1.5 million, your response was "Yawn". Which, to be honest, is part of the problem.

My yawn was in response to your calls to jail the individual.

donalg1

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The regulators, politicians and civil servants who failed the Irish people by allowing our economy to spectacularly crash are either still in their jobs or have retired with generous golden handshakes and pensions.

In the private sector those who have suffered from the fall out of the collapse have lost their jobs and businesses due to the public sector's mismanagement and are thrown to the wolves.

Have those responsible in senior positions of the public service got off very lightly from their role in the country's present predicament while any mistakes made by those in the private sector in dealing with the crises are met with calls of "jail him, jail him"?

Didnt the Private Sector workers borrow recklessly without any hope of ever repaying their debts out of sheer greed, and arent they just as responsible for the mess we are in.

Nobody forced them to borrow as much as they did and get into debt as much as they did, debts they could never repay, regulator or not.

Your argument says one was at fault while the others were poor poor souls who were given money they couldnt afford to repay. Whereas in reality they went to the banks and asked for this money, yes they got it all too easy, but they wouldnt have got it had they not asked. They are all as culpable as each other and so there is no vs argument to be made.

Anyway who cares. I reckon this thread will be closed before it gets to a dozen posts.

Einhard

SafeSurfer wrote: »

My yawn was in response to your calls to jail the individual.

Why? I think all those found to have defrauded another should at least face criminal charges.

Not just those in the private sector.

the anser

Was'nt there a fair degree of 'private sector mis-management' also? And did'nt Goggin (BoI), Sheehy (AIB), Fingleton, Fitzpatrick and Drumm all sail off into the sunset with even more generous handshakes and pensions?

Whatever about public sector mis-management (and there certainly was some) surely better political leadership was the root cause???

Ray Palmer

It really annoys me the way people want to blame somebody else and ignore the public at large. Planning is routinely ignored because politicians act on pressure from the public. When the government want to bring in restrictions people go on about 'nanny state'.
Corruption goes down to the simple level of people asking a local politician to get them something. Ask them to fix the system not corrupt it for your own gain.
If the banks were stopped giving out loans people would have gone mad. Most civil servants have no control over the decisions made. It is like suggesting a bank teller could have made the bank give out properly secured loans.
If a teenager left school to going into building trade and is now unemployed. Are you going to blame the parents or the child?
Some times things happen for a reason and sometimes those reasons are you made a stupid decision.

meangene

Some answers for small to medium business owners,

Customer: Will you do cash deal? Yes

Guard: Is that truck insured? I am waiting for insurance disc

Guard: Is that car NCT'd? I am on the waiting list

Guard: Is that van taxed? I only bought it, just after calling the tax office

Customs: Is he an employee here? Yeah, its his first day

We are living in the wild west, act accordingly.

alchemist33

donalg1 wrote: »

Didnt the Private Sector workers borrow recklessly without any hope of ever repaying their debts out of sheer greed, and arent they just as responsible for the mess we are in.

Precisely.

Blaming the public sector for everything is playing right into the Government's hands.

Kristopherus

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The regulators, politicians and civil servants who failed the Irish people by allowing our economy to spectacularly crash are either still in their jobs or have retired with generous golden handshakes and pensions.

In the private sector those who have suffered from the fall out of the collapse have lost their jobs and businesses due to the public sector's mismanagement and are thrown to the wolves.

Have those responsible in senior positions of the public service got off very lightly from their role in the country's present predicament while any mistakes made by those in the private sector in dealing with the crises are met with calls of "jail him, jail him"?

Wake up & smell the roses. Private sector developers and private sector bankers have brought this country to its knees and all you can do is moan about the public servants:eek:

SEPT 23 1989

Kristopherus wrote: »

Wake up & smell the roses. Private sector developers and private sector bankers have brought this country to its knees and all you can do is moan about the public servants:eek:

And what about the Croke Park agreement paying the public sector 33% more than the private sector with borrowed money

Jester252

So who are we bashing?

ChunkyLover_53

Jester252 wrote: »

So who are we bashing?

Bash 'em all...let NAMA sort 'em out.

micropig

Jester252 wrote: »

So who are we bashing?

Who've ya got?

true

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

And what about the Croke Park agreement paying the public sector 33% more than the private sector with borrowed money

Well said. And do not forget that if the public sector done their job properly - th government, central bank, regulators office and dept. of finance were all public sector - we would not be in this mess.

Odysseus

I make up for the significant cuts in my public service wage by doing private work. I make much more in the private sector so this 33% is crap.

SafeSurfer

Kristopherus wrote: »

Wake up & smell the roses. Private sector developers and private sector bankers have brought this country to its knees and all you can do is moan about the public servants:eek:

I am not moaning about public servants. My point is that there would be more compliance with authority in Ireland if that authority was seen to be held accountable for its mistakes.

true

Odysseus wrote: »

I make up for the significant cuts in my public service wage by doing private work. I make much more in the private sector so this 33% is crap.

do the revenue commissioners know you are doing the nixers outside your normal "working" day?

Why do you not leave your 30 hour a week public sector job so and devote your energy to the higher paid work? Or is the public sector just a rest for you?

Kristopherus

true wrote: »

Well said. And do not forget that if the public sector done their job properly - th government, central bank, regulators office and dept. of finance were all public sector - we would not be in this mess.

Those you mention are but a tiny fraction of the ps. What nurses, doctors, teachers,gardai,army,civil service staff, porters, domestic staff, etc,etc., were responsible for the recession or can be held accountable for the crash?

Odysseus

true wrote: »

do the revenue commissioners know you are doing the nixers outside your normal "working" day?

Why do you not leave your 30 hour a week public sector job so and devote your energy to the higher paid work? Or is the public sector just a rest for you?

Yes I pay tax on my private work. I enjoy my HSE work if I was just in it for money I would have left years ago, but this way I get to work with people who could not afford to see me privately, and I have a very busy HSE patient list.

God some people, they have to see the negative in everything. If I wanted I could leave tomorrow and earn maybe 30+k more a year, but life is not just about money.

true

Odysseus wrote: »

but this way I get to work with people who could not afford to see me privately,.

so if people cannot afford to see you privately, why not bring down down your charges and stop gloating about all the money you earn?
There was someone on the radio the other day saying how they were on the continent and the consultant only charged 26 euro !
Do not forget the outroar here 5 years ago when the hospital consultants said they thought 200,000 k a year pay was peanuts, and the german ambassador pointed out how consultants in germany earned half that - and even the p.m. of germany earned less !
Do not forget public sector pay here doubled in ten years. The german ambassador was proved right in his comments. Time for you and your comrades to get realistic and stop exploiting people.

squod

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The regulators, politicians and civil servants who failed the Irish people by allowing our economy to spectacularly crash are either still in their jobs or have retired with generous golden handshakes and pensions.

Failed? They succeeded 100% in defrauding Joe public.

Odysseus

true wrote: »

so if people cannot afford to see you privately, why not bring down down your charges and stop gloating about all the money you earn?
There was someone on the radio the other day saying how they were on the continent and the consultant only charged 26 euro !
Do not forget the outroar here 5 years ago when the hospital consultants said they thought 200,000 k a year pay was peanuts, and the german ambassador pointed out how consultants in germany earned half that - and even the p.m. of germany earned less !
Do not forget public sector pay here doubled in ten years. The german ambassador was proved right in his comments. Time for you and your comrades to get realistic and stop exploiting people.

I charge the cheapest rate I know. However, there will always be people who need the services of the public service. My point still stand if I wanted I can earn more in the private sector so that 33% is sh!te. I'm not gloating far from it, maybe you are p1ssed that you didn't pick a career that pays well, no matter what sector you work in

If I was just after money I would be in the private sector full time

RobbieTheRobber

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The regulators, politicians and civil servants who failed the Irish people by allowing our economy to spectacularly crash are either still in their jobs or have retired with generous golden handshakes and pensions.

In the private sector those who have suffered from the fall out of the collapse have lost their jobs and businesses due to the public sector's mismanagement and are thrown to the wolves.

Have those responsible in senior positions of the public service got off very lightly from their role in the country's present predicament while any mistakes made by those in the private sector in dealing with the crises are met with calls of "jail him, jail him"?

Sorry who from the devlopers and bank execs who profited from the ruination of our national finances have been jailed?
Are you blaimg the Public sector workers for what members of the public are saying, who is making these calls of "jail him, jail him"?

Cee-Jay-Cee

I'm sick of this ****, private sector workers chose their careers, no one made them. I'm in the Public sector and i have seen my pay drop steadily since 2009. I have bugger all left after bills/mortgage/creche are paid. I never got any over time when times were better yet everyone drones on about public service workers having a cushy number, good pay and security.... why the fúck didn't you choose a public sector job if you wanted security? Answer: because when you started in your career there was more money in the private sector (thats why they brought in bench marking afterall) but now that things arent going well you think you have some right to cry and whinge like a bítch about the public sector, well you don't! You made your bed so now lie in it and SHUT THE FÚCK UP!!!

newport2

The terms Public Sector and Private Sector are b0ll0x when talking about the crash. Huge diversity across both, some of which had hands in our downfall, some had nothing to do with it.

So saying one or the other is to blame is as true as saying all men are responsible for violence, while ignoring the fact that only a minority are and some women are too.

Change the record, a sub-section of the elite in our society from both public and private sectors bear the largest amount of responsibility for where we are. It's just a pity that we don't do accountability in Ireland.

Ray Palmer

CJC999 wrote: »

I'm sick of this ****, private sector workers chose their careers, no one made them. I'm in the Public sector and i have seen my pay drop steadily since 2009. I have bugger all left after bills/mortgage/creche are paid. I never got any over time when times were better yet everyone drones on about public service workers having a cushy number, good pay and security.... why the fúck didn't you choose a public sector job if you wanted security? Answer: because when you started in your career there was more money in the private sector (thats why they brought in bench marking afterall) but now that things arent going well you think you have some right to cry and whinge like a bítch about the public sector, well you don't! You made your bed so now lie in it and SHUT THE FÚCK UP!!!

There is a really important thing to note here, public service perks are paid for by everyone. People have every right to question how that money is spent.
I have worked in state, semi state and private companies. When it comes to quality and effort there really isn't any difference in most workers.
However the public sector has a major problem with discipline. If somebody decides not to do there job it appears nothing can be done. It is is only some but easily 5% from what I saw. The fact other employees have to put up with it and cant speak out.
Age of a company has a lot to do with efficiency. Some are verging on 50s mentality both private and public. It is worse when staff are in the same place for a long time

SafeSurfer

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Sorry who from the devlopers and bank execs who profited from the ruination of our national finances have been jailed?
Are you blaimg the Public sector workers for what members of the public are saying, who is making these calls of "jail him, jail him"?

I don't know of anyone from either the private or public sector who has been jailed for their role in our economic collapse.

My point is that builders, developers that profited from the boom have now lost everything and been bankrupted. Those who were culpable in the public sector have not faced any consequences and continue to be rewarded by pensions etc for complete incompetence.

Ray Palmer

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I don't know of anyone from either the private or public sector who has been jailed for their role in our economic collapse.
.

Point out the crimes the committed!
You'll find bad management isn't a crime. There is a world problem which is worse here mainly due to actions of the masses. Lots of little bad decisions got us here but they weren't illegal.

Looking for an individual or select group to blame just shows little understanding. So so much was out of our control and being in euro also made for a new element.

RobbieTheRobber

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I don't know of anyone from either the private or public sector who has been jailed for their role in our economic collapse.

My point is that builders, developers that profited from the boom have now lost everything and been bankrupted. Those who were culpable in the public sector have not faced any consequences and continue to be rewarded by pensions etc for complete incompetence.

So from your POV the banking execs and developers have been sufficently punished and the only people escaping without punishment are public servants?

Can you explain in more detail what you mean when you say "lost everything"?

Paulzx

SafeSurfer wrote: »

My point is that builders, developers that profited from the boom have now lost everything and been bankrupted. .

If you regard losing everything as still living in a 5,000sq foot house in Donnybrook, or fecking off to America to continue living the high life or still sending your kids to 10,000 euro a year private schools...........all whilst having hundreds of millions of euro of debt taken over by Nama, well then i suppose, yeah,they have lost everything

SafeSurfer

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Point out the crimes the committed!
You'll find bad management isn't a crime. There is a world problem which is worse here mainly due to actions of the masses. Lots of little bad decisions got us here but they weren't illegal.

Looking for an individual or select group to blame just shows little understanding. So so much was out of our control and being in euro also made for a new element.

I am not saying that crimes have been committed. I am saying that the incompetence of regulators, etc has had absolutely no consequences for them. Whereas in a private business if you are incompetent you lose your business, livelihood and home.

There was a lot that was still in our control. The government and regulators had the power to take some of the steam out of the property bubble. Instead during the biggest building boom arguably in any European country since the second world war they extended property tax incentives and even introduced new ones.

Elected county councillors rezoned huge tracts of land that would meet multiples of the forseeable demand. State employed planners allowed for massive over development and continued to rezone and grant planning aftern the crash. These same planners and development enforcement officers allowed the construction of thousands of gerry built unsafe houses and aparttments. The people that bought them are now homeless while the people that signed off on their construction remain unsanctioned in a job that they are clearly incapable of doing.

true

CJC999 wrote: »

I'm in the Public sector and i have seen my pay drop steadily since 2009.

turn the record off. Your pay doubled between 1999 and 2009, and you are still overpaid and overpensioned, with an absenteeism rate statistically far higher than the private sector. The country cannot afford the extra 9 billion a year you are costing us compared to 1999.

SafeSurfer

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So from your POV the banking execs and developers have been sufficently punished and the only people escaping without punishment are public servants?

Can you explain in more detail what you mean when you say "lost everything"?

I am not saying that anybody has been punished. I am saying that one sector has suffered consequences from their poor decisions while another sector have not.

By lost everything I mean everythinh that one has worked to achieve. Livelihood, business, home etc.

Paulzx wrote: »

If you regard losing everything as still living in a 5,000sq foot house in Donnybrook, or fecking off to America to continue living the high life or still sending your kids to 10,000 euro a year private schools...........all whilst having hundreds of millions of euro of debt taken over by Nama, well then i suppose, yeah,they have lost everything

Answer me this. Who has decided to keep employing the developers in NAMA? Was it a decision by someone employed in the public or private sector?

I think you know the answer. Maybe its symptomatic of the "reward failure" culture.

Odysseus

true wrote: »

turn the record off. Your pay doubled between 1999 and 2009, and you are still overpaid and overpensioned, with an absenteeism rate statistically far higher than the private sector. The country cannot afford the extra 9 billion a year you are costing us compared to 1999.

Maybe you should have a look at you own record. I and others I work with now do private work and we earn more there than in our public sector jobs, so how can I be over paid when I earn more outside of the public sector?

Apart from this a document landed on my desk today about further cuts to services and wages, sadly as usual it's people who earn average wages who will be hit the hardest.

Logical Fallacy

true wrote: »

so if people cannot afford to see you privately, why not bring down down your charges and stop gloating about all the money you earn?
There was someone on the radio the other day saying how they were on the continent and the consultant only charged 26 euro !
Do not forget the outroar here 5 years ago when the hospital consultants said they thought 200,000 k a year pay was peanuts, and the german ambassador pointed out how consultants in germany earned half that - and even the p.m. of germany earned less !
Do not forget public sector pay here doubled in ten years. The german ambassador was proved right in his comments. Time for you and your comrades to get realistic and stop exploiting people.

I like how you call his friends "comrades" when you are the one banging on like a Commie.

I love this "on the continent" bull****. Which country exactly? What is their cost of living compared to ours? What is their average wage compared to ours?

Bring some decent facts to the discussion and I might just entertain any point you are trying to make (which mostly seems to be swinging rapidly from comparing consultants to politicians to private practitioners) until then your posting is largely just pointless rabble.

Pedant

Public Sector Unaccountability: Union beards, leeching off the system, fat yolks behind the counter coming in late and taking the afternoon off, wasting tax payer money, sitting on your hole all day doing nothing.

Private Sector Criminality: Casinos, flash cars, guns, cocaine, pimps 'n' bitches.

Choose wisely.

true

Odysseus wrote: »

Maybe you should have a look at you own record. I and others I work with now do private work and we earn more there than in our public sector jobs, so how can I be over paid when I earn more outside of the public sector?

You work in the Health service as you claim, and you do private practice too. Not mant people are qualified like you, lucky enough to be able to command fees like you. I made the point some consultants on the continent charge 26 euro per consultation, but because of a cartel here among consultants and other factors its much higher than that here - as anyone who ever visited a hospital consultant on a private basis in this country will testify.
Have a look across the border to the north, or look at Germany, and you will see consultants paid much less than you. Time you brought down your prices, my friend.;)

true

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

What is their cost of living compared to ours? What is their average wage compared to ours?

average public sector wage in UK, our nearest neighbour, is 22k a year stg. Here our public sector average pay is 49k a year.
our private sector average pay is 34k a year
www.cso.ie

telly_lover

Kristopherus wrote: »

Wake up & smell the roses. Private sector developers and private sector bankers have brought this country to its knees and all you can do is moan about the public servants:eek:

banks couldnt have lent to the degree they did had public sector oversight been in anyway functional , it was in the goverments interests to keep the property market booming and for that to happen , credit needed to be freely available , the financial regulator was quietly told by goverment to look the other way

bertie ahernes fingerprints are all over what happened

telly_lover

Kristopherus wrote: »

Those you mention are but a tiny fraction of the ps. What nurses, doctors, teachers,gardai,army,civil service staff, porters, domestic staff, etc,etc., were responsible for the recession or can be held accountable for the crash?

of course guards , nurses and teachers were not responsible for the banking crisis but what relevance does this have to anything

telly_lover

CJC999 wrote: »

I'm sick of this ****, private sector workers chose their careers, no one made them. I'm in the Public sector and i have seen my pay drop steadily since 2009. I have bugger all left after bills/mortgage/creche are paid. I never got any over time when times were better yet everyone drones on about public service workers having a cushy number, good pay and security.... why the fúck didn't you choose a public sector job if you wanted security? Answer: because when you started in your career there was more money in the private sector (thats why they brought in bench marking afterall) but now that things arent going well you think you have some right to cry and whinge like a bítch about the public sector, well you don't! You made your bed so now lie in it and SHUT THE FÚCK UP!!!

actually average public sector pay was ahead of average private sector pay right throughout the boom and the foundation for benchmarking has never really held up to scrutiny , the union line about bringing guards and teachers into line with sean dunne doesnt hold up

Odysseus

true wrote: »

You work in the Health service as you claim, and you do private practice too. Not mant people are qualified like you, lucky enough to be able to command fees like you. I made the point some consultants on the continent charge 26 euro per consultation, but because of a cartel here among consultants and other factors its much higher than that here - as anyone who ever visited a hospital consultant on a private basis in this country will testify.
Have a look across the border to the north, or look at Germany, and you will see consultants paid much less than you. Time you brought down your prices, my friend.;)

My fees are competive otherwise people would not come, I charge the lowest fee I know of, but still earn more privately than my public service rate. So as I said this 33% is sh!te. Same with different members of my team. So it just doesn't gel

true

Odysseus wrote: »

My fees are competive otherwise people would not come, I charge the lowest fee I know of,

Consultants in this country charge more or less the same - all rip off prices. Go to the continent where private consultations with hospital consultants can be got for 26 euro. How much do you charge in your medical profession?

Odysseus

true wrote: »

Consultants in this country charge more or less the same - all rip off prices. Go to the continent where private consultations with hospital consultants can be got for 26 euro. How much do you charge in your medical profession?

You keeping highlighting consultants for some reason and I'm not a medic. My private fees vary depending on the person's position. I can live in Spain for a lot less than I can here, so if I was in Spain I would not need as much to live on, so how can we compare them.

telly_lover

Odysseus wrote: »

My fees are competive otherwise people would not come, I charge the lowest fee I know of, but still earn more privately than my public service rate. So as I said this 33% is sh!te. Same with different members of my team. So it just doesn't gel

no such thing as undercutting amongst the consultant and GP sector , not only that , when it comes to GP,s , they dont even see patients from outside their catchment area , doctors have an unwritten contract which says they wont rob each others patients

this entire sheltered sector looks and acts like a closed shop

telly_lover

true wrote: »

Consultants in this country charge more or less the same - all rip off prices. Go to the continent where private consultations with hospital consultants can be got for 26 euro. How much do you charge in your medical profession?

the problem is not the price they charge , a publican could charge 50 euro for a pint but he would soon run out of customers

the difference is that their is no cap in the number of pubs which can open , very different story when it comes to consultants and especially the GP sector

Odysseus

telly_lover wrote: »

no such thing as undercutting amongst the consultant and GP sector , not only that , when it comes to GP,s , they dont even see patients from outside their catchment area , doctors have an unwritten contract which says they wont rob each others patients

this entire sheltered sector looks and acts like a closed shop

I have friends who are GPs and that is sh!te, there is no such unwritten rule. GPs don't have catchment areas. I can go to loads of different GPs if I want anywhere that suits me.

golden lane

Odysseus wrote: »

I have friends who are GPs and that is sh!te, there is no such unwritten rule. GPs don't have catchment areas. I can go to loads of different GPs if I want anywhere that suits me.

there should be a national health service.......there is enough of money to do it...

Odysseus

golden lane wrote: »

there should be a national health service.......there is enough of money to do it...

We would still have people saying all the staff are overpaid:rolleyes: