Fear Factory and their Drum Machine

Motley Crue

This week saw the release of Fear Factory's new album, a concept record, entitled The Industrialist. There's no denying for anyone who hears it that this album is a true return to their Industrial roots and perhaps the strongest thing they've produced since the mid 90s to this end.

The problem for me, however, lies with the liner notes...in which Fear Factory is both "essentially" listed as Dino and Burton and also in which the band have removed a live drummer altogether in favour of a drum machine.

When Mechanize was recorded with Bryon Stroud and Gene Hoglan I was convinced that not only had FF produced the best Metal album of 2010 but that they had also re-cemmented a live line up that could produce quality albums for years to come. I understand that Stroud retired from live performances and didn't contribute to their studio albums anyway but he was replaced by Matt DeVries, who should have gotten this oppurtunity to make his mark - seems stupid that there is no mention of DeVries at all on this album....

As for Hoglan's departure, I'm not sure whose drumming for them now (Wikipedia indicates its Mike Heller) but I just feel a little cheated by FF and their drum machine and that they should have used a live drummer (especially with someone as skilled as Hoglan behind the kit) instead of Pro Tools

Burton's defence of this was also odd, to quote him about it when asked, he said

On the past records, we've always had a drummer to record, but when does a drummer stop being a drummer? Because everything that person records goes into Pro Tools and it's fixed perfectly and the sound that was recorded isn't even used. All the sound is sampled. It basically becomes the program. So we basically eliminated the drummer. And we thought, if we're gonna do that anyway, let's just use a drum program. So we did it

What do you think?

FishBowel

Echo and the Bunnymen did it first.

120_Minutes

I was lucky enough to watch them soundcheck from the side of the SFX stage when they played in 99. Raymond was the drummer at the time, and burton has a point, the sound and style they developed called for that drum machine sound. his playing was literally binary, either on or off. (hit or no hit) theres no feeling to his playing, and i dont mean that in a bad way, its just how the band sounds. His kit was all triggered too, ddrum triggers using an alesis d4 brain.

playing devils advocate, if burton and dino, can write and record all the songs, and program the drums, they cut out the need to pay session musician fees, and keep all royalties. tis all about the cash money.....

I'll bet if you didnt have liner notes, you'd assume it was a human playing a triggered kit.

Malice

The drumming on The Industrialist isn't as good as what Gene Hoglan produced on Mechanize. He showed that it's perfectly possible to play like a machine-gun but still add flair and feel to the output.

Motley Crue wrote:

Burton's defence of this was also odd

What's odd about what he said? Instead of going drummer -> computer -> output they just went programmer -> computer -> output.

120_Minutes

I haven't listened to them since obsolete but mean gene is much better than Raymond. Loved his work with Devin.

Malice

120_Minutes wrote: »

I haven't listened to them since obsolete but mean gene is much better than Raymond. Loved his work with Devin.

You like Gene Hoglan's work but you haven't listened to Mechanize? You should resolve that post-haste good sir!

xerces

120_Minutes wrote: »

I'll bet if you didnt have liner notes, you'd assume it was a human playing a triggered kit.

I knew nothing about them using a drum machine beforehand, but I knew something was up when it kicked in on the first track. It definitely had a different type of sound quality to it.

DrumSteve

This upsets me that Hoglan has left, mechanise was just a brilliant album and the standout on it was his drumming.

TBF though if any band is going to use a drum machine it was going to be them. Their sounds kinda calls for it in a way.

Malice

Programmed drums are nothing new in metal either. For those who might be unaware, Tomas Haake was involved in the development of Drumkit From Hell which was subsequently used on Meshuggah's album Catch Thirtythree.

DrumSteve

Malice wrote: »

Programmed drums are nothing new in metal either. For those who might be unaware, Tomas Haake was involved in the development of Drumkit From Hell which was subsequently used on Meshuggah's album Catch Thirtythree.

Some piece of hardware that.

Motley Crue

Malice wrote: »

Programmed drums are nothing new in metal either. For those who might be unaware, Tomas Haake was involved in the development of Drumkit From Hell which was subsequently used on Meshuggah's album Catch Thirtythree.

I suppose it's cheaper and does negate that royalties won't have to be spent etc but does mean that the band feels like less of a unit. FF is now, essentially, a duo and that bothers me - especially since I like to listen to a band and believe I'm listening to a band collaboratively join together and make an album....unless its stated that it's something different from the offset. To me, Fear Factory is a band, but now they're not...I guess that just disappoints me.

Malice

DrumSteve wrote: »

Some piece of hardware that.

It's not hardware. It's a VST. It is a lot of fun though .

Motley Crue wrote: »

I suppose it's cheaper and does negate that royalties won't have to be spent etc but does mean that the band feels like less of a unit. FF is now, essentially, a duo and that bothers me - especially since I like to listen to a band and believe I'm listening to a band collaboratively join together and make an album....unless its stated that it's something different from the offset. To me, Fear Factory is a band, but now they're not...I guess that just disappoints me.

Is a duo not still a band? Is the Fear Factory entity consisting of Dino and Burt somehow less valid just because they don't have Raymond/Byron/Christian/Gene with them?

DrumSteve

Malice wrote: »

It's not hardware. It's a VST. It is a lot of fun though .

Is a duo not still a band? Is the Fear Factory entity consisting of Dino and Burt somehow less valid just because they don't have Raymond/Byron/Christian/Gene with them?

Seriously dude I'm a drummer. I need this **** explained.

Motley Crue

DrumSteve wrote: »

Seriously dude I'm a drummer. I need this **** explained.

What do you need explained?

Yes, a duo is still a band, it just feels like they're cheating a little by having a Machine perform all their drum parts - especially when there has rarely (if ever) been a bassist recording and writing with the band, bass parts are written by Dino to mirror guitar more or less.

I guess i just subscribe to the theory that a band is more a band when none of the members are AI

Live, I hope that alongside Matt and Mike FF still sound as solid as they always have, and it's not just immediately evident that the studio album sounds different to the live material because there's a human drummer and not a machine behind the kit.

Motley Crue

Some footage from last night's performance in London FYI

Thanks to the guy who uploaded this stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKMytjboTDI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQFqkbGtciM

Motley Crue

And this is a full, pro shot ish, set from May 2012

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUx7G50TmOA

PickledLime

I think it's moot that they can do it as a duo, they've lost one of the most distinguished, revered and downright talented drummers to ever grace the metal scene.

DrumSteve

Motley Crue wrote: »

What do you need explained?

Yes, a duo is still a band, it just feels like they're cheating a little by having a Machine perform all their drum parts - especially when there has rarely (if ever) been a bassist recording and writing with the band, bass parts are written by Dino to mirror guitar more or less.

I guess i just subscribe to the theory that a band is more a band when none of the members are AI

Live, I hope that alongside Matt and Mike FF still sound as solid as they always have, and it's not just immediately evident that the studio album sounds different to the live material because there's a human drummer and not a machine behind the kit.

Twas just a joke about explaining something really technical to a drummer...

DrumSteve

PickledLime wrote: »

I think it's moot that they can do it as a duo, they've lost one of the most distinguished, revered and downright talented drummers to ever grace the metal scene.

And gene hoglan too.

Malice

Motley Crue wrote: »

To me, Fear Factory is a band, but now they're not.

Motley Crue wrote: »

Yes, a duo is still a band

So which is it, are Fear Factory still a band in your eyes or not?

Motley Crue wrote:

it just feels like they're cheating a little by having a Machine perform all their drum parts

Where is the cheating when comparing what I assume was the process for Mechanize:
Gene Hoglan -> Computer -> Pro Tools -> Some other voodoo -> The song on CD.

versus The Industrialist:

Mike Heller/John Sankey/Dino Cazares -> Computer -> Pro Tools -> Some other voodoo -> The song on CD.

What about using digital effects so that drums don't have to be recorded in bathrooms, they can just add reverb digitally. Is that cheating too?

DrumSteve wrote:

And gene hoglan too.

No one cares about bass players .

SilverScreen

I don't see how using a drum machine could be considered cheating, it's not like music is a contest. Godflesh were hardly cheating on Streetcleaner, Big Black were hardly cheating on Atomizer and Songs About F*cking. It's music for christ's sake.

Malice

Zero1986 wrote: »

It's music for pisschrist's sake.

Fixed your post .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bm_VB2niqM

slavetothegrind

Malice wrote: »

No one cares about bass players .

We are important in the chain of groupiedom, if we were not present to be last then the drummer gets none. If he is superseded by protools then its all the way up to rhythm guitarist:eek:
soon no ****er will get any cause hell the vst's are just better maaaaan!

:pac:

SilverScreen

Malice wrote: »

Fixed your post .

Dammit should have seen that coming

DrumSteve

Just listening to this album now.

Not really overly noticeable about the DM, but its in the back of my mind and annoying me somewhat. Pity, they didn't get hoglan in to drum on it (probably would have done a better job).

Some decent tracks on it though, except for the last 10 minutes... someone should have told the 2 lads to turn off dues ex and make some metal.

ArseLtd

It goes with the whole "man is obsolete" thing, pretty clever really.

Motley Crue

Dino has now spoken about his feelings again regarding the drum machine

"The songwriting process was much quicker, much more efficient, much more cost effective. Obviously, a band like FEAR FACTORY has always embraced the technology from the beginning — we've always been open about it, we've always talked about it.

We've always talked about guys like [producer] Rhys Fulber helping us out, ever since 'Fear Is The Mindkiller', which was after 'Soul Of A New Machine'. We've embraced all that. Most people are saying, 'Them using drum programming is no different. It doesn't really sound any different.' You know what I mean?! They can expect it from a band like FEAR FACTORY. Again, it's very cost effective.

The way music is going today, a lot of people don't make much money anymore, unless you're a big radio band or something like that. But for metal bands like us, we make most of our money just on touring and selling merchandise. And the record company is not giving much advances anymore. So you have to find ways to cut corners, financially, to try and save money. But this is nothing new for us, again, at the same time, 'cause when me and
Burt first did our first demo back in 1990, it was with a drum machine. . . So it's nothing new for us.

We started that way. . . And then it wasn't until we met Rhys Fulber when we did the remix album, 'Fear Is The Mindkiller', which was in 1992, and that was when we were like, 'OK, Rhys can afford all this technology. Let's bring it in, let's embrace it, let's use it.' And ever since then, we've always gotten criticized for it. Because most metal fans, they just don't… At the time, back in 1992, it was not really well known in metal to do that kind of [stuff]… I'll put it this way: it wasn't really spoken about. I mean, bands have used other members and other stuff, samplers and stuff like that, to do certain things, but it was never talked about, they never brought it to anybody's attention. We embraced it and that has has kind of always been our concept."

It is very sad to hear him talk about the lack of money they make from doing what they love. I suppose there is just an assumption, with a band like this, that if you've been performing since the mid 90s and travelled all over the world then you must be well off due to the music....surely...and of course this isn't the case at all because a lot of musicians, even well known and pivotal musicians, are finding it hard to cope - either retiring or selling equipment or stepping away from live arena tours because of the pressures, financially and socially

I guess what I mean is that if I go to HMV and see an album on the shelves, and it's selling a few copies and I purchase one myself, I expect that the band are at least making a comfortable living at that level of musicianship

DrumSteve

Motley Crue wrote: »

Dino has now spoken about his feelings again regarding the drum machine



It is very sad to hear him talk about the lack of money they make from doing what they love. I suppose there is just an assumption, with a band like this, that if you've been performing since the mid 90s and travelled all over the world then you must be well off due to the music....surely...and of course this isn't the case at all because a lot of musicians, even well known and pivotal musicians, are finding it hard to cope - either retiring or selling equipment or stepping away from live arena tours because of the pressures, financially and socially

I guess what I mean is that if I go to HMV and see an album on the shelves, and it's selling a few copies and I purchase one myself, I expect that the band are at least making a comfortable living at that level of musicianship

TBF musicians usually earn their crust from live performances; the album profits mainly to the record labels. Most record labels now will put into the contract that they get a cut of the live performance money, cos that's where it's at now.

I agree with Dino in one sense above, that if any band was going to use it it was going to be them.

But listening again to Mechanize and The Industrialist today, I much prefer Mechinize. The tone and nuances of the drums just cannot be replicated by a drum machine (though that's not to say there isn't a place for a drum machine in any type of music).