Casually killing creatures

dodderangler

Em can I just add that birds of prey won't die from eatin a mixy rabbit if yas are talking bout it
Matter fact mixxy is only harmfully to the rabbit that gets it nothing else even you can eat a mixxy rabbit

homerhop

Longfellow wrote: »

never said ya were like responsible for the extinctions in ireland. da persection continues toaday with lads poisoning them and numerous buzzards and numbers of white tailed eagles and red kite have been shot:(.
mixy in rabbits was introduced in da 50's. those bird were extict before that so ya can't blame da farmers for that

farmers feared sheep/lambs were being taken so yes they had a hand in the larger birds of preys extinction.When it was announced that golden eagles were going to be reintroduced look how agitated some of them became, The blame for some of those recent birds being killed is being laid at the hands of farmers. I know of farmers who are still laying poison and had a discussion with one last week about it and he didn't care when i said it was illegal. So your argument can co around in circles all night and get no where. It only takes one gob****e to have everyone tarred with the one brush

homerhop

dodderangler wrote: »

Em can I just add that birds of prey won't die from eatin a mixy rabbit if yas are talking bout it
Matter fact mixxy is only harmfully to the rabbit that gets it nothing else even you can eat a mixxy rabbit

I know that, the point i was making it is easy to throw stones at the shooting community, but people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

Longfellow

dodderangler wrote: »

Em can I just add that birds of prey won't die from eatin a mixy rabbit if yas are talking bout it
Matter fact mixxy is only harmfully to the rabbit that gets it nothing else even you can eat a mixxy rabbit

ya correct there dodder lad. he probably meant though that the big decline in bunny numbers helped cause the extinction

Longfellow

homerhop wrote: »

farmers feared sheep/lambs were being taken so yes they had a hand in the larger birds of preys extinction.When it was announced that golden eagles were going to be reintroduced look how agitated some of them became, The blame for some of those recent birds being killed is being laid at the hands of farmers. I know of farmers who are still laying poison and had a discussion with one last week about it and he didn't care when i said it was illegal. So your argument can co around in circles all night and get no where. It only takes one gob****e to have everyone tarred with the one brush

i knows of plenty of farmers laying poison as well. hard to change the minset of these lads. farmers have poisons loads of those birds.

at least 3 local buzzards in my place been shot. i knows of of da culprits, local gunclub lads whose now as a result are banned from my lands. da fools were boasting about shootin da birds in da pub. ya shouldn't ignore da damage that shootin lads either are doing to these
birds.

homerhop

I'm not ignoring those in the shooting community who break the law. They should not have fire arms.

steddyeddy

Longfellow wrote: »

i knows of plenty of farmers laying poison as well. hard to change the minset of these lads. farmers have poisons loads of those birds.

at least 3 local buzzards in my place been shot. i knows of of da culprits, local gunclub lads whose now as a result are banned from my lands. da fools were boasting about shootin da birds in da pub. ya shouldn't ignore da damage that shootin lads either are doing to these
birds.

Report the poisoners Longfellow if it doesnt bring to much trouble on you.

steddyeddy

Just to get my position across I didnt mean that hunters in Ireland have a terrible rep in zoological communities. I meant the country as a whole. We are one of the only first world countries that doesnt (or hasnt) proescuted people for killing proteced species (white tailed sea eagles). Some people have an attitude that "the only good (insert target of hate here) is a dead one". This shows absolutely no knowledge of the ecosystem and the damage taking out an entire species will do to it. When the sea eagles were introduced one hundred people (I use the term "people" loosely as I am definatly a superior species to them whatever they are) protested against this in Kerry. This prompted the one Norwegian commentator to say "what breed off !"$hole protests at the arrival of baby chicks". Later in Kerry eagles were poisoned

In a particularly disturbing case this year the heads of two seals (grey and harbour seals) were decapitated and their heads placed on the gate of seal sanctuarary. A fine gael councillor called for seal cull after this event for these protected animals. He says the seals are to blame for fish decline. Fish stocks have been declining worldwide in any fished areas as a result of over fishing not seal predation. This to me is particularly sick because seals have been know to save people lost at sea, those who are drowing and suicide vicitms who jumped off cliffs and bridges.

Thats what I mean by saying we have a bad rep in ecological circles and zoological circles. That is a long way of what good hunters practice I know but I believe this disregard for animal welfare Ireland fosters is causing a backlash against hunters.

Longfellow

steddyeddy wrote: »

Report the poisoners Longfellow if it doesnt bring to much trouble on you.

told da gardaí, but they said unless they caught in act they can do nothing. the same goes for the shot buzzards unless they caught shootin noyhing can be done:mad:. don't worry too much they will get their communpance

steddyeddy

Longfellow wrote: »

told da gardaí, but they said unless they caught in act they can do nothing. the same goes for the shot buzzards unless they caught shootin noyhing can be done:mad:. don't worry too much they will get their communpance

I know I heard the same from Gaurds. Useless is not the word. A chemistry lecturer we worked with and he is planning on tracking down the sales of certain poisons and giving them to the gaurds. He says if they dont do anything they will publish the list of people buying poisons but Im not going to say anything more about it here.

steddyeddy

Listen I know hunters and their nice people. I dont know a bad one but I know some people in general who have a horrible attitude to wildlife. It would be a great thing in my opinion if there was closer ties between shooting groups and wildlife enforcment agencies. I think that would do wonders for both sides.

Longfellow

steddyeddy wrote: »

I know I heard the same from Gaurds. Useless is not the word. A chemistry lecturer we worked with and he is planning on tracking down the sales of certain poisons and giving them to the gaurds. He says if they dont do anything they will publish the list of people buying poisons but Im not going to say anything more about it here.

problem is alot of da poisons used are not illegal and easily obtained. most farmers would have them at home. i's won't give da names of the exact drug for fear some lad do use them

steddyeddy

Longfellow wrote: »

problem is alot of da poisons used are not illegal and easily obtained. most farmers would have them at home. i's won't give da names of the exact drug for fear some lad do use them

Oh yea I agree but the chemistry lecturer knows exactly what poisons are being used. Repeat customers have been logged and without saying anything more that could effect a legal case there are ways of determining the poison used to the exact field.

steddyeddy

To give an Idea of whats happening to those who dont know. Some people last year baited some pigeons in order to attract buzzards. The poison they used was carbofuran. Any budding chemists here will know that this toxin has the potential to kill pets and even children. The drug depending on how it spread could affect hormone levels of people in the area. So really the story were looking at here is that these people are a huge danger because of their attitude.

kildare.17hmr

If the guards refuse to do anything contact the lical wildlife ranger, they have as much power in cases like this and would be a bit more motivated on these types of issues

steddyeddy

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

If the guards refuse to do anything contact the lical wildlife ranger, they have as much power in cases like this and would be a bit more motivated on these types of issues

I will thanks but its a lecturer I work with the odd time who has the details of the poisons and who bought them. Its not only animals that are the cause of concern. One chap my lecturer knows about from a county west of Dublin (I wont name) has being buying Gramoxone which has been linked to parkinsons in humans.

muckyhands

dodderangler wrote: »

Yet again a useless post!
You don't hunt a cow or a sheep do showing it off says nothing
When you go out hunting you don't always kill something that's why it's called huntin as in you hunt for your quarry
When I go ferretin I look around the burrows for fresh signs that rabbit are in the burrow and still using it and when a rabbit is caught and I put up a pic it's to show off my reward for the hunt

Come off it!

Im putting things into perspective.

Sounds like the 'showing off' bit is the main event so....

Imagine a group of gardeners 'showing off' their 'quarry' of slugs/ snails they killed- with a 'slug sports pic thread'

I can just see it now.....

'I followed the tracks of slime to an empty upturned flower pot- they are known to rest in such places and I could tell from my years of training that these tracks were,.... indeed,..... fresh.....:eek:

I knew right then- it was an active flower pot hide-

So I sent in the hedgehog.... :eek::eek::eek: '

cue some pics.

Please.

Nudey_Nun

No reason to ever kill any creature for humans. If anyone ever went near my dog I'd have their eyes! :mad:

homerhop

ya always got to love the never kill an animal brigade but if they hurt my cat/dog/family...i would kill,maim, stab, take their gun and beat/shoot them with it.

Discodog

homerhop wrote: »

Longfellow ya see the problem there is that the shooting community are not supposed to have an interest in such projects, the mindset from those who do not agree with shooting is that all we want to do is wipe out everything. After all we are the ones responsible for there being no wolves, bears, birds of prey. Hell its even our fault jebus died on the cross
:rolleyes:

Well if you wanted an unbiased opinion about whether it is necessary to shoot one species to protect another then a shooter is hardly the place to start.

By the way one of the major causes of raptor decline was DDT.

homerhop

Discodog wrote: »

homerhop wrote: »

Longfellow ya see the problem there is that the shooting community are not supposed to have an interest in such projects, the mindset from those who do not agree with shooting is that all we want to do is wipe out everything. After all we are the ones responsible for there being no wolves, bears, birds of prey. Hell its even our fault jebus died on the cross
:rolleyes:

Well if you wanted an unbiased opinion about whether it is necessary to shoot one species to protect another then a shooter is hardly the place to start.

Well that's where you and I differ discodog. As I have stated so many times before I am able to sit down and see both sides of the argument and discuss it, something you refuse to do. Once again your tunnel vision on people who hunt makes you believe that we have no interest in such things.
I wonder why the likes or Aran, icabs or my gosh even you with your vast experience in all things relating to animal welfare are not contacted to get involved in such projects. Enlighten us how many such projects are you involved in here?

summerskin

Went big game hunting in africa a few years ago, it was fcuking great.

Joey the lips

dodderangler wrote: »

Your aware rabbits and foxes are classed as vermin aren't you

Ahhh are you telling me white fluffy pinky is vermon.....

Well at least he tastes nice.

steddyeddy

summerskin wrote: »

Went big game hunting in africa a few years ago, it was fcuking great.

Well depending on what you hunted I would have a problem with that

Edit: I mean protected species or some of the higher order animals.

Galwayguy35

homerhop wrote: »

Longfellow ya see the problem there is that the shooting community are not supposed to have an interest in such projects, the mindset from those who do not agree with shooting is that all we want to do is wipe out everything. After all we are the ones responsible for there being no wolves, bears, birds of prey. Hell its even our fault jebus died on the cross
:rolleyes:

Well not trying to be pedantic or anything but yes hunting is the reason that there are no wolves in Ireland. The last one was killed in the 18th century. Bears on the other hand died out in prehistoric times.

homerhop

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well not trying to be pedantic or anything but yes hunting is the reason that there are no wolves in Ireland. The last one was killed in the 18th century. Bears on the other hand died out in prehistoric times.

Yes and the last wold was killed in Ireland by a.....Co Carlow farmer. It was Oliver Cromwell who introduced a bounty on the Irish Wolf something a lot of Irish People seemingly did not take part in.
An interesting read here.... http://www.behav.org/student_essay/carnivores/wolf/adley_irish_wolf/adley_irish_wolf.htm

I am not saying back in those times hunters were not responsible for the decline in such beautiful animals, but to say they are solely responsible is well a bit naive.
What a lot of people seem to refuse point blankly to accept that in the times we are in now the modern Irish hunter is involved in habitat schemes as well as conservation projects. It goes against the grain of their views that we do not care about animals. As with all things that there is such a divided view there are those of us trying to find a middle ground. You will always have the "hard core" who no matter what refuse to accept that there are others who have different views and opinions and despite all their talk of always willing to debate or discuss can never seem to grasp the concept of what those 2 words mean.

Longfellow

homerhop wrote: »

Yes and the last wold was killed in Ireland by a.....Co Carlow farmer. It was Oliver Cromwell who introduced a bounty on the Irish Wolf something a lot of Irish People seemingly did not take part in.
An interesting read here.... http://www.behav.org/student_essay/carnivores/wolf/adley_irish_wolf/adley_irish_wolf.htm

I am not saying back in those times hunters were not responsible for the decline in such beautiful animals, but to say they are solely responsible is well a bit naive.
What a lot of people seem to refuse point blankly to accept that in the times we are in now the modern Irish hunter is involved in habitat schemes as well as
conservation projects. It goes against the grain of their views that we do not care about animals. As with all things that there is such a divided view there are those of us trying to find a middle ground. You will always have the "hard core" who no matter what refuse to accept that there are others who have different views and opinions and despite all their talk of always willing to debate or discuss can never seem to grasp the concept of what those 2 words mean.

da problem i finds with lads is often they more interested in releasing shíte like pheasants, red leeged partridge rather than conserving native creature. if shootin lads did more work like the boora grey partridge (set up by hunters) non-huntin folk would be more understandin i's say. i tried to get the local gunclub to perhaps start up a grey partrige population sourcing birds (hopefully from boora). Lads were more interested in releasing red legs because they would get good shootin. (the grey would not be on quarry list)
in my area wild boar hybrids were released (donard, wicklow) with no regard for people property or damage to native habitats.

homerhop

The club I am involved in has a member who reared and released grey partridge and quail. We have a thriving population of birds of prey. I have brought people to points that I know they would be able to see buzzards as i know where they would be at certain times in the evening. We have made a small dvd for a nun who brings old folks to the area for a few days showing clips of badgers, foxes,rabbits,white hares, buzzards, ducks and pheasants. I spend some time with them when they come round and they enjoy talking about what wildlife is around and what they seen in their time.
We have a few other projects in the pipe line and have been in contact with all the farmers in our area who have given us 100% backing in what we are going to do and some have offered to help.

Like I keep saying a few bad apples can tarnish us all but there are those of us who are trying hard to improve things.

Longfellow

homerhop wrote: »

The club I am involved in has a member who reared and released grey partridge and quail. We have a thriving population of birds of prey. I have brought people to points that I know they would be able to see buzzards as i know where they would be at certain times in the evening. We have made a small dvd for a nun who brings old folks to the area for a few days showing clips of badgers, foxes,rabbits,white hares, buzzards, ducks and pheasants. I spend some time with them when they come round and they enjoy talking about what wildlife is around and what they seen in their time.
We have a few other projects in the pipe line and have been in contact with all the farmers in our area who have given us 100% backing in what we are going to do and some have offered to help.

Like I keep saying a few bad apples can tarnish us all but there are those of us who are trying hard to improve things.

what species of quail are ya releasing? I hope it's pure european common quail and not any hybrids or japanese quail. do they migrate?

do ya have any wild breeding coveys of grey partridge? did ya source wild birds as domestic strains are useless in da wild and won't breed. did ya get birds from lough boora? as they have the only near fully native strains

homerhop

They were European quail, we had a good population of migrating quail in our area this year which was a pleasure to see.
It was a few years back that he reared the partridge released them on his farm. I never asked him where he sourced them it was just something he wanted to try to see if it was successful.

Longfellow

homerhop wrote: »

They were European quail, we had a good population of migrating quail in our area this year which was a pleasure to see.
It was a few years back that he reared the partridge released them on his farm. I never asked him where he sourced them it was just something he wanted to try to see if it was successful.

were da quail ya relesed migratory or sedentary?. were da quail for shootin?

homerhop

they were not for shooting, some of them stayed local, hard to tell if the rest fell to predators or migrated. South Kildare has a good population of quail migrating to and from it and apparently Athy is the only place they have bread successfully in small numbers for many years.

muckyhands

I wonder what woud happen if the Irish fox became extinct......

I have to wonder about this, how mistakes arent learned- the only predator left and you will probably hear the same bs..

Errmm..

It wasnt my fault.....

Ermm..

It was before my time.................................................................................................................................................

I didnt kill the very last one so dont blame me......

garv123

muckyhands wrote: »

I wonder what woud happen if the Irish fox became extinct......

I have to wonder about this, how mistakes arent learned- the only predator left and you will probably hear the same bs..

Errmm..

It wasnt my fault.....

Ermm..

It was before my time....................................................

I didnt kill the very last one so dont blame me......

The numbers of the foxes are not decreasing... Foxes aren't been shot at near enough level for that to happen.
Now it might be a different story if the bounty was still on foxes where a nights shooting could earn you more than your weekly wage that might be a different story...

Fox numbers aren't in danger and if they were there would be something done about it. eg ban or season or the likes.

On the other hand a load of lions in kenya were slaughtered this week by a local village and there is only 1500 left. The numbers are dropping by 100 each year.

Thats something under threat..not the red fox.

homerhop

muckyhands wrote: »

I wonder what woud happen if the Irish fox became extinct......

I have to wonder about this, how mistakes arent learned- the only predator left and you will probably hear the same bs..

Errmm..

It wasnt my fault.....

Ermm..

It was before my time.................................................................................................................................................

I didnt kill the very last one so dont blame me......

mistakes are learned, if you bothered to read anything i have said about conservation and how in this day and age hunters are very much aware of these things. the curlew being a prime example of this. But as always there are folks like you who would rather look back at things that happened that should not have and focus on the negative. As you like to put it, the same bs but this time from someone opposed to hunting

muckyhands

garv123 wrote: »

The numbers of the foxes are not decreasing... Foxes aren't been shot at near enough level for that to happen.
Now it might be a different story if the bounty was still on foxes where a nights shooting could earn you more than your weekly wage that might be a different story...

Fox numbers aren't in danger and if they were there would be something done about it. eg ban or season or the likes.

On the other hand a load of lions in kenya were slaughtered this week by a local village and there is only 1500 left. The numbers are dropping by 100 each year.

Thats something under threat..not the red fox.

You know all about this, how exactly?

How could numbers of foxes POSSIBLY be monitored when theyre hunted left right and centre with 'NO SEASON OR BAN OR THE LIKES' ???

Sure for every one counted at one particular time- how many will have been killed in that time?

You dont know- EXACTLY

For fsake-

young/ old/ male/ female/ pregnant/ lactating/ whole family/ generations can be wiped out in one night- but I can sleep easy can I?

You can assure me of numbers can you?

Didnt think so.....

garv123

Because some of us get off our arses and are outside to see the amount of foxes each year and there is never a lack of them.

Gun clubs do a vermin count with tails handed in and over the last decade there was consistent numbers of foxes shot each year.. If the numbers were decreasing a decreased amount would be shot each year as they were getting more scarce.

muckyhands

homerhop wrote: »

mistakes are learned, if you bothered to read anything i have said about conservation and how in this day and age hunters are very much aware of these things. the curlew being a prime example of this. But as always there are folks like you who would rather look back at things that happened that should not have and focus on the negative. As you like to put it, the same bs but this time from someone opposed to hunting

Ah, like that is it?

Well, I would have liked to think re mistakes, but hey. :rolleyes:

Do you hunt the land you bring the nuns to watch wildlife in, just curious to know?

Current times newsflash-

Theres a thing- its called marketing- everybodys at it it seems in these modern times.

homerhop

You know all about this, how exactly?

How could numbers of foxes POSSIBLY be monitored when theyre hunted left right and centre with 'NO SEASON OR BAN OR THE LIKES' ???

Foxwatch Irelands website has the following on it...
Their adaptability has made them one of the 20th Century's mammal success stories and they are well positioned to thrive far into the next millennium....truly a 21st century mammal.

homerhop

muckyhands wrote: »

Ah, like that is it?

Well, I would have liked to think re mistakes, but hey. :rolleyes:

Do you hunt the land you bring the nuns to watch wildlife in, just curious to know?

Current times newsflash-

Theres a thing- its called marketing- everybodys at it it seems in these modern times.

awww did i ruffle your moral high ground feathers ???

yes we hunt the ground and have done so for over 40 years.....oh wait by your estimation we should have killed off all the wildlife so there should be nothing for us to show them :rolleyes:

Please enlighten me what has marketing got to do with conservation?

muckyhands

homerhop wrote: »

Foxwatch Irelands website has the following on it...
Their adaptability has made them one of the 20th Century's mammal success stories and they are well positioned to thrive far into the next millennium....truly a 21st century mammal.

Still hasnt answered my question.

Adapted to urban life do you mean?

Adaptaility versus 'overcoming/ surviving the hunt' could be my next wonder- how does one adapt to that?

homerhop

so what statistics can you provide to show how endangered they are?

muckyhands

garv123 wrote: »

Because some of us get off our arses and are outside to see the amount of foxes each year and there is never a lack of them.

Gun clubs do a vermin count with tails handed in and over the last decade there was consistent numbers of foxes shot each year.. If the numbers were decreasing a decreased amount would be shot each year as they were getting more scarce.

Does this tradition take into account how old the foxes that the tails belonged to were?

I wonder if wolf tails were handed in, the same way- to keep count that is- not as as a trophy or anything.....

I' ll sleep better tonight, thanks.....

Hang on a second- the same number roughly has been shot each year for the past decade, with no knowledge of what percentage of the population that shot number equates to?

I coud kill 1 out of ten of the 'population of something' each year for ten years but if the 'population of something' reduced by one each year well, there will eventually be none left I guess.

Reliable?

garv123

muckyhands wrote: »

Does this tradition take into account how old the foxes that the tails belonged to were?

I wonder if wolf tails were handed in, the same way- to keep count that is- not as as a trophy or anything.....

I' ll sleep better tonight, thanks.....

Hang on a second- the same number roughly has been shot each year for the past decade, with no knowledge of what percentage of the population that shot number equates to?

I coud kill 1 out of ten of the 'population of something' each year for ten years but if the 'population of something' reduced by one each year well, there will eventually be none left I guess.

Reliable?

your logic is just full of fail..


If fox numbers were decreased drastically there wouldnt be near the same amount shot consistently each year because there would be far fewer around to shoot.

muckyhands

garv123 wrote: »

your logic is just full of fail..


If fox numbers were decreased drastically there wouldnt be near the same amount shot consistently each year because there would be far fewer around to shoot.

Dont think so.....

Example- if 100 were shot consecutively for ten years, out of say ten thousand...

The number 100 could be due to anything- number of hunters in said club/ skill perhaps, for all I know...

100 out of 10000 could be killed for how many years in a row before numbers become obviously 'scarce' ?

Presuming the ten thousand population is consistent of course and not reducing each year...

Or known even would be a start- not just presumed re number of tails.....

garv123

You're forgetting each vixen will reproduce 3-6 cubs every year and the cubs balance out the foxes been shot.

muckyhands

homerhop wrote: »

awww did i ruffle your moral high ground feathers ???

yes we hunt the ground and have done so for over 40 years.....oh wait by your estimation we should have killed off all the wildlife so there should be nothing for us to show them :rolleyes:

Please enlighten me what has marketing got to do with conservation?

I wondered what would happen if our Irish Red fox became extinct-

Feathers ruffled perhaps- but they werent mine.....

muckyhands

garv123 wrote: »

You're forgetting each vixen will reproduce 3-6 cubs every year and the cubs balance out the foxes been shot.

Not when dog/ vixen and cubs are all shot = no balance

Numbers will reduce each year!

Which is why I wondered how old the fox that the tail belonged to was and does it even occur to anyone to wonder about that?

Cant really rely on number of tails, please someone say it isnt so, I mean really???

Witcher

Again..more magical ideas which are spouted here like new discoveries. Think about it..if there was a dangerously low number of foxes left there would be a ban on shooting them like there is on red deer in Kerry.

There are people monitoring these things...I don't think a guy behind a keyboard at half 3 in the morning is thinking of things that others haven't been working on.

garv123

muckyhands wrote: »

Not when dog/ vixen and cubs are all shot = no balance

Numbers will reduce each year!

Which is why I wondered how old the fox that the tail belonged to was and does it even occur to anyone to wonder about that?

Cant really rely on number of tails, please someone say it isnt so, I mean really???

Not every dog vixen and cubs are shot.. the cubs will grow up and move onto a new area. millions of people are killed each year and you dont see people becoming endangered.

you seem to think that suddenly one year all the foxes will become extinct..

The red fox is one of Ireland’s most successful and prolific creatures despite the fox control methods employed by sportsmen and farmers each year.

:pac::pac::pac:

your logic fails still.