Casually killing creatures

muckyhands

Blay wrote: »

Again..more magical ideas which are spouted here like new discoveries. Think about it..if there was a dangerously low number of foxes left there would be a ban on shooting them like there is on red deer in Kerry.

There are people monitoring these things...I don't think a guy behind a keyboard at half 3 in the morning is thinking of things that others haven't been working on.

Exactly- but think for yourself, dont wait for someone else to tell you the damage has been done...

How can they be monitored again? Number of tails? Please...

Girl behind a keyboard going to bed, almost.

muckyhands

garv123 wrote: »

Not every dog vixen and cubs are shot.. the cubs will grow up and move onto a new area. millions of people are killed each year and you dont see people becoming endangered.

you seem to think that suddenly one year all the foxes will become extinct..



:pac::pac::pac:

your logic fails still.

First prize goes to the one who figures out why people havent become endangered.....

Sorry, but my logic IS LOGICAL.....

Witcher

It seems we have the answer to every predator problem right here in this thread, who knew all these geniuses were here on Boards.

People suggesting building walls to keep foxes out, another for every farmer in the country to lamb indoors, another saying the fox might go extinct while also suggesting that hunters aren't even denting fox numbers. Why these people arent working for the NPWS or the IFA or the Department of the Environment I'll never understand:pac:

muckyhands

Blay wrote: »

It seems we have the answer to every predator problem right here in this thread, who knew all these geniuses were here on Boards.

People suggesting building walls to keep foxes out, another for every farmer in the country to lamb indoors, another saying the fox might go extinct while also suggesting that hunters aren't even denting fox numbers.

Who said that???

Witcher

muckyhands wrote: »

Who said that???

Said what?

Galwayguy35

homerhop wrote: »

Yes and the last wold was killed in Ireland by a.....Co Carlow farmer. It was Oliver Cromwell who introduced a bounty on the Irish Wolf something a lot of Irish People seemingly did not take part in.
An interesting read here.... http://www.behav.org/student_essay/carnivores/wolf/adley_irish_wolf/adley_irish_wolf.htm

I am not saying back in those times hunters were not responsible for the decline in such beautiful animals, but to say they are solely responsible is well a bit naive.
What a lot of people seem to refuse point blankly to accept that in the times we are in now the modern Irish hunter is involved in habitat schemes as well as conservation projects. It goes against the grain of their views that we do not care about animals. As with all things that there is such a divided view there are those of us trying to find a middle ground. You will always have the "hard core" who no matter what refuse to accept that there are others who have different views and opinions and despite all their talk of always willing to debate or discuss can never seem to grasp the concept of what those 2 words mean.

Interesting article all right. It's sad that a species can be totally wiped out.

Discodog

homerhop wrote: »

Well that's where you and I differ discodog. As I have stated so many times before I am able to sit down and see both sides of the argument and discuss it, something you refuse to do.?

I have been involved in reserves in the UK. When you have a specific species project, like the Grey Partridge, you have to balance protecting your target species whilst reducing the consequences to predators. The hunting community have a lot of experience with raising pheasants etc so in theory they should provide good input. However they simply remove predators which is unacceptable in a reserve.

Where we differ is that you enjoy shooting. What is the real aim ? Maybe to raise the level of Grey Patridges to the point where you can start shooting them ?

Optimalprimerib

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

Nowadays, if my first instinct is to raise a foot to stamp on an insect I pause for a second and think 'what if that was me (the insect)' and always let it go.I always try to avoid stepping on snails / slugs on foootpaths as well but I often think that they're simply asking to get stood on - just lying on the path like gobsh*tes. On wet days especially they're an absolute nuisance trying to avoid as there's so many of them on paths beside grassy areas.

The same would go for any animal or rodent. Instead of killing it in cold-blood, I'd give it a another chance and let it go. We'd all expect the same if we were in said rodent's position.

Luckily I've never had to euthanise a pet so far, and I would never do so lightly. It must be bloody heartbreaking to put down down furry pets such as cats and dogs. If there was any other alternative such as expensive surgery that would cure the pet I'd go for it at all costs. Personally I've never agreed with the whole idea of euthanising animals, even if the intent is good; to ease it's suffering I still see it as an unfair solution to the animal in question. Every possible effort should be made to perform life saving surgery on it or whatever other alernatives are available that can keep it both alive and in a comfortable condition. After all, we'd never in a million years put down a severly disabled baby.

Having had to make that heart breaking decision to put down our much loved dog of ten years last week, I disagree. Seeing her suffer was the most painful experience I had to go through. It had me thinking that in extremely severe cases, that option should be available for humans.

homerhop

muckyhands wrote: »

I wondered what would happen if our Irish Red fox became extinct-

Feathers ruffled perhaps- but they werent mine.....

Sorry to disappoint ya but ya don't remotely upset me, I think amuse would be better describe it.
I am still waiting for your statistics/ studies to show the fox is in decline

homerhop

Discodog wrote: »

Where we differ is that you enjoy shooting. What is the real aim ? Maybe to raise the level of Grey Patridges to the point where you can start shooting them ?

I have never said I don't enjoy it.
Your last sentence just proves my point that you still refuse to believe someone who hunts might enjoy conservation projects. You always have to assume there is a motive.

So once again what conservation projects are you involved in Ireland.

Longfellow

Discodog wrote: »

I have been involved in reserves in the UK. When you have a specific species project, like the Grey Partridge, you have to balance protecting your target species whilst reducing the consequences to predators. The hunting community have a lot of experience with raising pheasants etc so in theory they should provide good input. However they simply remove predators which is unacceptable in a reserve.

Where we differ is that you enjoy shooting. What is the real aim ? Maybe to raise the level of Grey Patridges to the point where you can start shooting them ?

what reserves did ya work with in the UK? In RSPB reserves in the UK predator control is carried out. In Lough Garten in Scotland they trap/lamp foxes to help protect capercaille. In Wader reserves they do control numbers of crows and foxes.The predator control is limited though not like on alot of large shooting estates in the Uk where do kill all numbers of rare species golden eagle, hen harrier, kites, goshawk etc. da problem is so bad on grouse estates the hen harrier be near extinct in England.

As regards lough boora partridge project the numbers were so low (still are) that unless predator control carried they would be no Irish grey partridge left in da country. Who want's that?

Longfellow

muckyhands wrote: »

I wonder what woud happen if the Irish fox became extinct......

I have to wonder about this, how mistakes arent learned- the only predator left and you will probably hear the same bs..

Errmm..

It wasnt my fault.....

Ermm..

It was before my time.................................................................................................................................................

I didnt kill the very last one so dont blame me......

Due to the natural predators of foxes being extinct a certain number of fox control is needed. Golden eagle, white tailed eagle and wolf were shot/poisoned into extinction. although golden and white tailed eagle have been reintroduced da persecution (poisoning/shooting) continues and they may not reestablish healthy populations. as such there be no natural control of foxes so they needs to be culled.

muckyhands

homerhop wrote: »

Sorry to disappoint ya but ya don't remotely upset me, I think amuse would be better describe it.
I am still waiting for your statistics/ studies to show the fox is in decline

I just wondered WHAT WOULD HAPPEN if the Irish fox became extinct. :D:D

Thats all.....

muckyhands

homerhop wrote: »

I have never said I don't enjoy it.
Your last sentence just proves my point that you still refuse to believe someone who hunts might enjoy conservation projects. You always have to assume there is a motive.

So once again what conservation projects are you involved in Ireland.

Theres a thing I have heard about....

Quite a modern concept maybe? :rolleyes:

Its called marketing!!!!!:D

I enjoy growing plants but my end game/ pasttime/ fun is not to kill them. :rolleyes:

Some see a difference you see.

boomerang

homerhop wrote: »

There are plenty of reports and studies to disagree with you about feral cats
http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/cats_ecological_impacts.pdf

http://issuu.com/the-wildlife-professional/docs/feralcats
Page 50 on the linked article

http://ocpets.ocregister.com/2010/12/02/feral-cats-impact-on-birds-17-billion/75020

There are equally as many reports and scientific studies about feral cats to counter the arguments made by conservationists and those interested in wildlife. Both sides have an agenda.

Apart from the corncrake (which sadly only exists in a few isolated pockets now) I've yet to find any research or evidence to suggest that feral cats are a danger to any native Irish species. If that information is out there, I would love to have it, for my own interest.

muckyhands

Longfellow wrote: »

Due to the natural predators of foxes being extinct a certain number of fox control is needed. Golden eagle, white tailed eagle and wolf were shot/poisoned into extinction. although golden and white tailed eagle have been reintroduced da persecution (poisoning/shooting) continues and they may not reestablish healthy populations. as such there be no natural control of foxes so they needs to be culled.

Put it like this then-

THERE IS NO 'CONTROL' - ONLY 'TAILS' BY THE SOUNDS OF THINGS :eek::eek::eek:

Back to my original wonder...

If the Irish fox became extinct- what then?

Probably all jump on the rabbit cull bandwagon- 'theres no natural predators' I hear them say. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Rynox45

I might seem like a total nihilist but I think I'd kill anything given the circumstances.
If a dog was going for my throat I doubt I'd have any reservations about retaliating

On the other hand, in day to day circumstances I don't really care about killing insects in the house. I live here and I don't want them hanging on walls giving me dagger eyes while I sleep.

For anything bigger than an insect live capture/detainment is preferable.

muckyhands

Blay wrote: »

It seems we have the answer to every predator problem right here in this thread, who knew all these geniuses were here on Boards.

People suggesting building walls to keep foxes out, another for every farmer in the country to lamb indoors, another saying the fox might go extinct while also suggesting that hunters aren't even denting fox numbers. Why these people arent working for the NPWS or the IFA or the Department of the Environment I'll never understand:pac:

muckyhands wrote: »

Who said that???

Blay wrote: »

Said what?

The bit in BIG BOLD LETTERS, thought it was quite obvious.

Wondered who said that?

kildare.17hmr

muckyhands wrote: »

Theres a thing I have heard about....

Quite a modern concept maybe? :rolleyes:

Its called marketing!!!!!:D

I enjoy growing plants but my end game/ pasttime/ fun is not to kill them. :rolleyes:

Some see a difference you see.

what are you on about

muckyhands wrote: »

Put it like this then-

THERE IS NO 'CONTROL' - ONLY 'TAILS' BY THE SOUNDS OF THINGS :eek::eek::eek:

your missing the point, the numbers accounted for have been steady year on year which means there has not been a drop in population. the population regeneratres itself every year. when people were getting £20 a fox tail they were not wipped out and that was alot of money, you could have easily made a weeks wages in a night or 2 of shooting!

Back to my original wonder...

If the Irish fox became extinct- what then?

Probably all jump on the rabbit cull bandwagon- 'theres no natural predators' I hear them say. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

sure rabbits are shot as it is anyway because they do huge damage to land. ill take some pics over the weekend if i get a chance and show you what i mean but just a couple of examples from a walk the other day.

a field of wheat with pockets of crop gone completley, the rest is about waist height now but some of these pockets of damage you could build a small house on. thats alot of money to a farmer lost to rabbits.

the next field has about 80 cows in it, we spotted 2 baby rabbits standing about 30 yards out from the hedge, we moved towards them and the just dissapeared into the ground, i could fit my sixe 10 boot into this hole to above my ankle and my arm to passed my elbow! if a cow stepped in this it would break a leg and probably be there over night or all day untill fould by the farmer. The hole was filled in as best we could at the time but i would guess next time i go over there it will be open again

Birdnuts

muckyhands wrote: »

I just wondered WHAT WOULD HAPPEN if the Irish fox became extinct. :D:D

Thats all.....

Its about as likely to happen as humans going extinct - foxes have moved into city/town suburbs in recent decades and are doing extremly well out of it. Indeed its been suggested that their numbers have never been higher.

Birdnuts

steddyeddy wrote: »

Oh yea I agree but the chemistry lecturer knows exactly what poisons are being used. Repeat customers have been logged and without saying anything more that could effect a legal case there are ways of determining the poison used to the exact field.

That will certainly help, along with the fact that all meat based poisons have banned since late 2010. On the subject of prosecutions for illegal poisoning of protected species - all is not lost here eithier. There is a law which is overseen by the Dept of Ag banning the placement/disposal of livestock carcasses above ground since the BSE and Foot and Mouth epdemics. This led to the prosecution of a number of landowners in Kerry on or near sites where poisoned eagles were found back in 2010 - which thankfully has meant that no further eagle deaths have been detected in these areas since. The NPWS has now increased powers to carry out similiar inspections of land where such crimes have been detected. Landowners found with suspicous carcasses on their land near such crime scenes are also more liable for Dept audits concerning their Single Farm Payments, and this has also helped reduce the problem in some areas.

I fully agree that this problem is a tough one to tackle as it only takes one gombeen to do alot of damage, but I think it is encouraging to see various government agencies finally starting to work together on the problem. Of course the vigiliance of the general public plays a vital role too which is why I would encourage anyone with info on such matters to pass is on to the NPWS, Dept of AG, Golden Eagle trust etc.

michaelmouse

If you are unhappy about how animals are being hunted or treated then maybe your time would be better spent becoming a politician or working for a animal welfare agency where you can actually make a difference instead of wasting time arguing with some moron who thinks killing pregnant animals or beheading badgers is fine because we have been doing it for years!
DISCLAIMER: them last examples fictitious and are not aimed at anyone, before i get the tantrum and tears replies!!!!

garv123

Theres enough people in politics without a clue, dont think they need anymore..

bokkenspiel

i know someone who nearly crashed his car trying to knock down a giant rat

muckyhands

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

what are you on about

your missing the point, the numbers accounted for have been steady year on year which means there has not been a drop in population. the population regeneratres itself every year. when people were getting £20 a fox tail they were not wipped out and that was alot of money, you could have easily made a weeks wages in a night or 2 of shooting!

sure rabbits are shot as it is anyway because they do huge damage to land. ill take some pics over the weekend if i get a chance and show you what i mean but just a couple of examples from a walk the other day.

a field of wheat with pockets of crop gone completley, the rest is about waist height now but some of these pockets of damage you could build a small house on. thats alot of money to a farmer lost to rabbits.

the next field has about 80 cows in it, we spotted 2 baby rabbits standing about 30 yards out from the hedge, we moved towards them and the just dissapeared into the ground, i could fit my sixe 10 boot into this hole to above my ankle and my arm to passed my elbow! if a cow stepped in this it would break a leg and probably be there over night or all day untill fould by the farmer. The hole was filled in as best we could at the time but i would guess next time i go over there it will be open again

In 'on about' marketing- if it needs further explanation then Heuston- we really do have a problem. :eek:

Point was missed but not by me :rolleyes:, Numbers 'accounted for' by your reasoning DOES NOT EQUAL a population number by mine. :rolleyes: Your reasonIng just indicates HOW MANY have been killed. Doesnt remotely give any indication WHATSOEVER about how many were killed out of how many ('how many' also could be known as a 'population number' :rolleyes:). Seems to me that this population number is unknown OR QUITE FRANKLY NOT EVEN CARED/ WONDERED ABOUT and confused with a 'kill' or 'tail' count. As I said before and Ill make it simpler still- If 1(KILLED) out of 10(POPULATION NUMBER) were killed each year but the 10(POPULATION NUMBER OBVIOUSLY) reduced by 1 each year, well, eventually you would Be killing 1 out of 0- WHICH EQUALS? EXTINCT??? LIGHT BULB MOMENT. In other words THINK ABOUT IT DONT PRESUME THERES ENOUGH TO 'GO ROUND', as it were. ANOTHER LIGHT BULB MOMENT. :D

Sure do you think 'lack of natural food sources' AKA RABBITS could account for anything at all? :rolleyes:

JUST WONDERING.

And Re the holes in the ground- quite frankly cows can trip themselves up, and me/ you/ AND joe soap, with THEIR OWN flippin hoof prints- should you shoot/ hunt them too??? (The cows that is- not me/ you or joe soap)