Advice for me for when I finish my degree

AnonoBoy

FishBowel wrote: »

From viewing previous Irish horror movies I have no expectations that these ones will be any better.

So your attitude is, Irish horror films haven't been good so far, so it'll always stay like this? That's the spirit! :rolleyes:

Perhaps wait to see films before you actually dismiss them totally.

That's a good idea but I get the impression with Irish film schools the best people drop out?

Where do you get this impression from? Examples would be great if you have any.

The team players stay and graduate. The kind of people who would talk a non-film school director away from trying different things?

If the director can be talked out of trying things by his/her crew then they shouldn't really be directing. The director's job is to realise their vision. Sure there's discussion with the crew but unless it's for budget or safety reasons they should always be the ones with the final say.

Film schools teach you to how to make films the same way as everyone else makes. That's why most Irish movies are so bad but look great?

I don't agree with that. If you're a good filmmaker, being taught the fundamentals doesn't make you like everyone else. You've got some pretty set ideas about Irish film schools, have you ever attended one or is this (as I suspect) all second hand information and opinions?

I believe that the majority of the problems with Irish films lie with the scripts not the direction to be honest.

FishBowel

AnonoBoy wrote: »

So your attitude is, Irish horror films haven't been good so far, so it'll always stay like this? That's the spirit! :rolleyes:

Perhaps wait to see films before you actually dismiss them totally.

Fed up waiting, they're all sh-te. Anyway, Irish cinema will never make an impact with horror movies.

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I don't agree with that. If you're a good filmmaker, being taught the fundamentals doesn't make you like everyone else. You've got some pretty set ideas about Irish film schools, have you ever attended one or is this (as I suspect) all second hand information and opinions?

Nope and I don't want to.

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I believe that the majority of the problems with Irish films lie with the scripts not the direction to be honest.

That is yet another problem with the film schools - blaming the scripts. There's more to movies than making technically adept films based on quality scripts. Seriously, there's this obsession that Irish films are bad because of the script! This excuse has being going around for years. We can't make good films and it's the screenwriter's fault! If only our film school graduates could find a great script they will have a successful career!

AnonoBoy

FishBowel wrote: »

Fed up waiting, they're all sh-te. Anyway, Irish cinema will never make an impact with horror movies.

Just showing how open-minded you are there. You've already decided you have all the answers and know what's going to happen. But yet you offer no answers except "don't go to film school."

And what's wrong with Irish film? "Film school"

Nope and I don't want to.

So all your assertions that film schools only teach people to make films like everyone else are based on..... guesswork really?

That is yet another problem with the film schools - blaming the scripts.

Who said anything about film schools blaming the scripts? I'm doing it. Me, not a school. And you yourself have admitted you've never been to a school so how would you know that's something they even do?

There's more to movies than making technically adept films based on quality scripts.

Yes but it'd be a f*cking good place to start from for Irish films wouldn't it?

Seriously, there's this obsession that Irish films are bad because of the script!

It's not an obsession it's observation. Sh*te scripts that don't get past a 2nd or 3rd draft are produced over and over again in Ireland and they're woeful.

What do you think the problem is? Do you think there's great scripts out there being made all the time but somehow the direction is somehow killing them?

When you watch a bad Irish film do you just grumble "film school" over and over instead of actually thinking about what could have been impoved?

You're talking about of your hoop quite a bit here. This conversation is so familiar I'm actually starting to think I've met you before! Another person who says Irish film is wrong because X but yet can't offer any real concrete ideas on how to change that. And anyone who does try to do stuff is dismissed just like you did above saying all Irish horrors are sh*te and you're fed up waiting. This is getting boring at this point to be honest.

FishBowel

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Just showing how open-minded you are there.

I don't think people making horror movies can do anything new in this country?

AnonoBoy wrote: »

So all your assertions that film schools only teach people to make films like everyone else are based on..... guesswork really?

It's based on watching several bad Irish films that are technically well made.

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Who said anything about film schools blaming the scripts? I'm doing it. Me, not a school. And you yourself have admitted you've never been to a school so how would you know that's something they even do?

Taking a guess?

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Yes but it'd be a f*cking good place to start from for Irish films wouldn't it?

It's not an obsession it's observation. Sh*te scripts that don't get past a 2nd or 3rd draft are produced over and over again in Ireland and they're woeful.

What do you think the problem is? Do you think there's great scripts out there being made all the time but somehow the direction is somehow killing them?

You're talking about of your hoop quite a bit here. This conversation is so familiar I'm actually starting to think I've met you before!

I think a move away from scripts would work? Use a looser structure, more improvising, more stuff done in one take, more scenes using little dialogue.
Low-budget stuff doesn't need overwritten scripts.

AnonoBoy

I think a move away from scripts would work? Use a looser structure, more improvising, more stuff done in one take, more scenes using little dialogue.
Low-budget stuff doesn't need overwritten scripts.

Looser structured films still need scripts or treatments. I'm not saying overwritten scripts (ie bad scripts) are what we need. When I say scripts are the problem I mean exactly that. So whether it's more improvisational approaches or whatever, we need to be telling better stories and in better ways.

You'll be glad to know that Kirsten Sheridan (who you've already dismissed) has already done this with her latest film. But I'm sure you already know it'll be sh*te before even watching it.

You've got a strange idea as well that low-budget somehow automatically equals superior. It doesn't. There's just as many (if not more) bad low budget films out there, we just don't end up seeing them.

FishBowel

I heard it was bad. Telling better stories can't be taught in film school. That's my point. If you have no good stories available then all the quality sound and camerawork won't matter. I think more playwrights and artists should be making feature films in Ireland. Surround them with a good crew from the film schools maybe? The film schools only teach you the technical aspects and networking. The important stuff has to be learned elsewhere.

AnonoBoy

FishBowel wrote: »

I heard it was bad.

Well be sure not to check it out for yourself and just listen to others.

Telling better stories can't be taught in film school.

No I don't think it can. But going to film school doesn't necessarily rob you of that ability if you have it already.

That's my point.

Is that your point? I honestly don't know what your point is since it's changing so often.

Surround them with a good crew from the film schools maybe?

I suggested that a few posts ago and you said that directors would be talked out of decisions by film-school educated crew.

FishBowel

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Is that your point? I honestly don't know what your point is since it's changing so often.

Here are my points again:

• Irish films schools are a waste of time. Maybe 20 years they were worth attending but with today's digital technologies there are cheaper and quicker ways to make a movie
• if you really want to go to film school then there are better ones abroad
• there is little regular work in big-budget movies here and a film school degree won't get you a good job on these productions
• most Irish movies are technically good but overall bad. The film schools have to take some blame for this.
• Irish horror films are crap
• just because a movie has quality cinematography/script/sound doesn't automatically make it good
• most Irish directors have never made a feature film because they can't
• low-budget films shouldn't use the same techniques as larger productions
• it's not my fault you went to film school and never heard these views before

AnonoBoy

FishBowel wrote: »

[*]it's not my fault you went to film school and never heard these views before
[/LIST]

I refer you to my post here where I said the following:

This conversation is so familiar I'm actually starting to think I've met you before!

It's not my fault you don't read posts properly.

Seriously though, what you're saying is nothing new. I've heard it all before. I agree with some of it but a lot of it I think is quite simplistic.

ScumLord

FishBowel wrote: »

Not it's not. What lights did the Dogma 95 films use? None is the answer. Far more impressive that most Irish titles.

What this obsession with 'flaws'? Typical film-school way of thinking. We need more films like this with flaws.

Light is vital to filming, it's nonsense to suggest otherwise. You can get by with little light but if you want any control over what your doing and you want to make sure you have the best video you can get going into CC your going to want control over lighting. Chroma keying is next to impossible without a set of lights.

FishBowel

I didn't say it's nonsense. What's nonsense is using the exact same lighting set up as used in film. You don't need lots of lights for video. But because people are taught this stuff in film school they approach everything they make like a David Lean epic! The idea that you need to go to film school to learn advanced lighting when they end up making stuff with digital cameras is daft.

Galvasean

Anyone else sensing some serious should chip here?

ScumLord

FishBowel wrote: »

I didn't say it's nonsense. What's nonsense is using the exact same lighting set up as used in film. You don't need lots of lights for video. But because people are taught this stuff in film school they approach everything they make like a David Lean epic! The idea that you need to go to film school to learn advanced lighting when they end up making stuff with digital cameras is daft.

You don't need to go to film school to learn lighting, no. You can learn it the hard way like I did and it takes months of trial and error to learn what could be learned over a few days, it will take months to perfect what you learn in a class but it certainly cuts down on time spent getting the correct way of setting up if someone tells you what you should be aiming for.

Fair enough I was trying to mess with green screens. I have a digital camera, a fairly good one and it demands as much light as you can throw at it. In the sun shine it's amazing, overcast or in doors it struggles. You can compensate for that but it will cost you in overall image quality.

FishBowel

I think this is an Irish thing. Everyone's afraid of making mistakes. That's why they need to go to film school first before making anything. Sure, if you want to make award-winning shorts and epsiodes of Love Hate then film school is probably a good idea. But that's not film production.

AnonoBoy

FishBowel wrote: »

I think this is an Irish thing. Everyone's afraid of making mistakes. That's why they need to go to film school first before making anything. Sure, if you want to make award-winning shorts and epsiodes of Love Hate then film school is probably a good idea. But that's not film production.

Can I just ask one pertinent question - do you actually work in the film/tv industry or are you offering all this amazing insights as an outsider who's never worked on a set ever?

FishBowel

I'm offering these amazing insights to the OP to prevent him wasting money and years on getting a useless film qualification. You're only sore because I've hit a few raw nerves that you've heard before but don't want others to find out.

johnny_ultimate

Quiz for the day:

What do Charlie Kaufman, Terence Malick, Gus van Sant, Aaron Sorkin, Krzysztof Kieslowski, Jerzy Skolimowski, John Lasseter, David Gordon Green, Francois Ozon, Nick Park, Kathryn Bigelow, Francis Ford Coppola, Zhang Yimou, David Lynch and Darren Aronofsky have in common?

Answers on a postcard please!

Seriously: many 'film schools' are absolute cack and will happily hand you a cert or a diploma for sitting around on your arse for a year or two and giving them a cheque. Others are focused on 'film studies', and will provide you less practical knowledge than a making of DVD. Others will prepare you for the industry and provide you with valuable practical experience, industry contacts and other genuine benefits, as well as worthwhile academic qualifications. Works for some, doesn't work for others. Do your research and find the good ones. Watch and analyse as many films as you can in your own time, from every discipline, era, style and genre. Go out and make films: even if they look and sound ****, obvious potential is the best stepping stone you can have. Make contacts: artistic collaborators and potential business partners. If you want to go anywhere in Ireland, learn to work the system. If you don't, emigrate. Have enthusiasm. Have fun. Be inspired. Fight to make what you want. If you want to make films for the love of cinema, prepare to be impoverished for the forseeable future. If you want to work in the industry, be ruthless.

Do what you want to do. Listen to a variety of opinions, and make an educated decision. If you want further education, go for it: a good practical qualification will be no harm whatsoever to you going forward. If you want to just take your 5D and start filming **** ASAP, or get involved (paid or volunteer) with other people's productions, then you are more than entitled do that too. Both have proven successful in individual cases, and a combination of both is an equally valid option.

Galvasean

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Can I just ask one pertinent question - do you actually work in the film/tv industry or are you offering all this amazing insights as an outsider who's never worked on a set ever?

FishBowel wrote: »

I'm offering these amazing insights to the OP to prevent him wasting money and years on getting a useless film qualification. You're only sore because I've hit a few raw nerves that you've heard before but don't want others to find out.

Quite the question dodge there...
Do you work in the film industry yourself FishBowel?

AnonoBoy

FishBowel wrote: »

I'm offering these amazing insights to the OP to prevent him wasting money and years on getting a useless film qualification.

Your definition of amazing and mine differ greatly obviously.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread stating that you need a qualification, in fact everyone knows the qualification isn't important. It's the experience film schools offer that is the attraction of them.

ScumLord

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Your definition of amazing and mine differ greatly obviously.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread stating that you need a qualification, in fact everyone knows the qualification isn't important. It's the experience film schools offer that is the attraction of them.

And of course the piece of paper. If you want a job in film you'll be sending your CV to big companies that value pieces of paper whether we like it or not that's just the way things are.

FishBowel

Brilliant advice lads! Send your useless piece of paper to the many production companies in Ireland who regularly make feature films? They will no doubt hire you on the spot and give you a well-paid job on the set of their next production! With that filmmaking experience learned at college there will be no trouble in fitting right in! OP if you believe any of this nonsense there are several world-class films schools right here in this country waiting for your application!

AnonoBoy

ScumLord wrote: »

And of course the piece of paper. If you want a job in film you'll be sending your CV to big companies that value pieces of paper whether we like it or not that's just the way things are.

Never been asked for my degree. Never expect to be either.

Galvasean

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Never been asked for my degree. Never expect to be either.

Ditto. No one cares about the actual degree in the film industry, but your body of work and experience.
However, that is not to say the experiences and works you accumulate en route to said degree are entirely worthless.

So FishBowel, do you make films yourself? I ask because you speak very passionately about the subject.

bowsandarrows

Wow, thanks so much for all the input and the lively discussion.

The degree I'm currently doing is journalism, a field which has a similar "get a journalism degree!/just start writing!" argument. From my experience there is no right side to this argument. When I graduate, I will graduate with people who will never be good journalists, people who one day could be good journalists, and a small number who are well on their way to being good journalists. But most professional full-time journalists I know do not have a degree in journalism and are also very good at their jobs. I'd imagine it's the same with film school, even though film is much more technical and harder to "have a go at".

To tell you where I am, I'd go to the BA course in IADT if I could afford it, but I can't. That just looks like a fantastic course, I've never heard a bad word against it. johnny_ultimate, where is your MA course?

A one year course in Ballyfermot might be fun and cost-effective. But if I'd be doing this to meet people who are into making films (which is my main problem), get some practical experience, maybe volunteering would be the best option? Any advice on going about this, with sort of no qualifications? (I'll also do a bit of googling!)

AnonoBoy

bowsandarrows wrote: »

A one year course in Ballyfermot might be fun and cost-effective. But if I'd be doing this to meet people who are into making films (which is my main problem)

This can actually be quite hard to do. Well, meeting the right people that is.

At least in a course you get to see how someone works, what they're into and decide whether you'd work well together outside of college. There's lots of people out there making films whose methods of working might clash with yours. And making a film is such a team effort it's really important to work well with those on your crew. A harmonious Director/Producer relationship is hugely important I feel.