Worst crime committed by a main character?

Indricotherium

Picards attempted genocide of the Borg?

Janeways breaking of the temporal prime directive and apparently successful genocide of the Borg?

Picards habitual disregard for the prime directive?

Worfs extra judicial murder of Duras?

Janeway erasing the Doctors memory?

Picards banishing of the moriarty hologram to the void of the ships memory banks?

Avery Brooks acting?:)

Any other suggestions?

norrie rugger

Janeway killing Tuvix

Kiith

Probably Sisko's involvement with tricking the Romulans into the war with the Dominion. I know it served the greater good, and saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and even regardless of the fact that the Dominion probably would have attacked the Romulans after defeating the Federation/Klingons, it was still totally against the rules.

Made for some fantastic viewing though

Indricotherium

Kiith wrote: »

Probably Sisko's involvement with tricking the Romulans into the war with the Dominion. I know it served the greater good, and saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and even regardless of the fact that the Dominion probably would have attacked the Romulans after defeating the Federation/Klingons, it was still totally against the rules.

Made for some fantastic viewing though

I don't think it's up there with genocide though. Even if the Borg are bad guys.

I should add that it opens a wider debate on the morals of the federation, and star fleet as janeway was apparently promoted for her actions.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Picards attempted genocide of the Borg?

He never went through with it though. It was merely a plan, & it showed that despite how much Picard was hurt by the Borg, he didn't let himself down.

Janeways breaking of the temporal prime directive and apparently successful genocide of the Borg?

How was it she broke the Temporal PD again? Genocide of the Borg...hmm. Were they really destroyed? Also, when you've tried all other avenues to resolve a conflict, war remains but the last. By their very nature, it's always going to me an us against them scenario with the borg. Also, can they even be considered sentient any differently than a computer can be?

Picards habitual disregard for the prime directive?

Examples please

Worfs extra judicial murder of Duras?

Far from a crime in Klingon society, it would have actually been expected of Worf to do this. Anything less, & be considered weak.

Janeway erasing the Doctors memory?

Tough one this. A crime? No. Wrong? Yes.

Picards banishing of the moriarty hologram to the void of the ships memory banks?

Not at all, given the constraints...it was the perfect solution.

Avery Brooks acting?:)

Lol, certainly not.

Any other suggestions?

I'd probably second the killing of Tuvix. As much as I agree with the decision, I wouldn't have been able to make the call on it. That was one tough ass situation, & morally, it was the Kobayashi Maru.

Indricotherium

Janeway travelled back in time 30 odd years and used technology from the future to return voyager home 18 years earlier than it should have and in the process attempt the destruction of an entire civilisation / society / race.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Janeway travelled back in time 30 odd years and used technology from the future to return voyager home 18 years earlier than it should have and in the process attempt the destruction of an entire civilisation / society / race.

Who's to say that wasn't how it was meant to be anyway?

Also as I mentioned, I'm not sure you can consider the Borg a society or race, at least, not any differently to a virus etc

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

ive always wondered where the hell the federation timecops were during all this

that was star trek wasn't it?

Myrddin

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

ive always wondered where the hell the federation timecops were during all this

that was star trek wasn't it?

Yeah Sisko had a visit from Temporal Investigations during the Trials & Tribbleations episode.

Goldstein

I'm going with Riker's trombone playing.

Indricotherium wrote: »

Janeways breaking of the temporal prime directive and apparently successful genocide of the Borg?

That was nowhere near successful Just enough to bring a little chaos to perfection. The Borg were only getting started.

Indricotherium wrote: »

Janeway erasing the Doctors memory?

I assume this is about Latent Image? (A brilliantly written episode about a devious moral dilemma and one of my favourite episodes of any incarnation of Trek. Picardo is outstanding in it). Janeway did that to save him, repeatedly, until he could come to terms with the who lives/who dies decision that had been forced upon him.


In Twilight T’Pol uses a docked Xindi ship to ram another nearby ship but extensively damages one of Enterprise’s warp necelles in the process (I thought it was pretty badass move myself). However, as a result Enterprise can’t get back in time to save Earth, Earth is destroyed. Not a crime as such but not her best day either.

Indricotherium

Picard ignores the prime directive when it suits him, be it rescuing a protege from facing the music for committing a crime, interfering with the Klingon succession or performing espionage on the cardassians.

It's a bit of a trend in the federation on general. Its own rules and morals are only followed to a point and when they are not restrictive to the federations goals.

The insurrection incident

The power grab by starfleet in ds9

Section 31

Sisko and the Romulans.

Janeways time travelling exploits

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Picard ignores the prime directive when it suits him, be it rescuing a protege from facing the music for committing a crime, interfering with the Klingon succession or performing espionage on the cardassians.

I'm long overdue a TNG rewatch, can you tell me what context these examples are in? I'm sure there's always a greater good to any decision by Picard. The Prime Directive is a rigid tool used in a general sense. It cannot bend to situations in which the right decision is to break the directive itself.

It's a bit of a trend in the federation USA on general. Its own rules and morals are only followed to a point and when they are not restrictive to the federations governments goals.

Fyp

The insurrection incident

A problem created by one Federation member, & fixed by another.

The power grab by starfleet in ds9

Power grab? Starfleet were guests of the Bajoran Provision Government. There was no power grab.

Section 31

A rogue splinter group of Starfleet

Sisko and the Romulans

Sisko showed the Romulans a fake Dominion recording in the hopes they would see sense & join the war. It failed. It was Garak, who killed the Romulan Senator, causing the Romulans to join the war.

Janeways time travelling exploits

One woman can't reflect the morals of an interplanetary society though

Indricotherium

Sisko set that plan in motion and is responsible for the unexpected consequences.

The doctrine of common design extends to garaks solo run as i think you could probably argue that sisko had tacitly agreed to it by setting the whole thing in motion.

Indricotherium

EnterNow wrote: »

Indricotherium wrote: »

Picard ignores the prime directive when it suits him, be it rescuing a protege from facing the music for committing a crime, interfering with the Klingon succession or performing espionage on the cardassians.

I'm long overdue a TNG rewatch, can you tell me what context these examples are in? I'm sure there's always a greater good to any decision by Picard. The Prime Directive is a rigid tool used in a general sense. It cannot bend to situations in which the right decision is to break the directive itself.

It's a bit of a trend in the federation USA on general. Its own rules and morals are only followed to a point and when they are not restrictive to the federations governments goals.

Fyp

The insurrection incident

A problem created by one Federation member, & fixed by another.

The power grab by starfleet in ds9

Power grab? Starfleet were guests of the Bajoran Provision Government. There was no power grab.

Section 31

A rogue splinter group of Starfleet

Sisko and the Romulans

Sisko showed the Romulans a fake Dominion recording in the hopes they would see sense & join the war. It failed. It was Garak, who killed the Romulan Senator, causing the Romulans to join the war.

Janeways time travelling exploits

One woman can't reflect the morals of an interplanetary society though

Janeway is promoted for her exploits, that can be read as approval at a high level by the federation.

I there was significant political or hierarchical criticism of her actions I can't see her being made a flag officer.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

Sisko set that plan in motion and is responsible for the unexpected consequences.

The doctrine of common design extends to garaks solo run as i think you could probably argue that sisko had tacitly agreed to it by setting the whole thing in motion.

He's responsible no doubt, but was his plan murder as is being made out? No. He almost went to town on Garak after the senator was killed. But...

"I can, live with it"

Indricotherium

EnterNow wrote: »

Indricotherium wrote: »

Sisko set that plan in motion and is responsible for the unexpected consequences.

The doctrine of common design extends to garaks solo run as i think you could probably argue that sisko had tacitly agreed to it by setting the whole thing in motion.

He's responsible no doubt, but was his plan murder as is being made out? No. He almost went to town on Garak after the senator was killed. But...

"I can, live with it"

His aim was do do what it takes to get the Romulans into his war and he involved garak to do his dirty work.

He didn't speak the order but he is involved in the conspiracy nonetheless.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

His aim was do do what it takes to get the Romulans into his war and he involved garak to do his dirty work.

He didn't speak the order but he is involved in the conspiracy nonetheless.

His only crime per se, was the fraudulent holosuite showing. I agree he's responsible as much as Garak for the death of the senator...but I think given the choice he'd have walked away rather than commit murder. Indirectly responsible for murder I'd call it.

Great thread btw :cool:

IvySlayer

Seven transporting the member of 8472 to the Hirogen ship. Always feel sad about that

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

This is dangerous reasoning. It's been used to terrible effect in the real world.

But the 'individuals' that make up the collective, are but mindless drones. They receive & send instructions, they do not think or reason. There is no sentience present, & are much more like a computer virus than a society.

It's only when freed of the collective, do drones begin to regain some of what they lost...but as Borg? No, I don't think it's possible to commit genocide against them.

How is it used to terrible effect in the real world? Poisoning ant hills? Avast? There's nothing like this scenario in the real world, genocide is committed against people...not machines.

Indricotherium

EnterNow wrote: »

Indricotherium wrote: »

This is dangerous reasoning. It's been used to terrible effect in the real world.

But the 'individuals' that make up the collective, are but mindless drones. They receive & send instructions, they do not think or reason. There is no sentience present, & are much more like a computer virus than a society.

It's only when freed of the collective, do drones begin to regain some of what they lost...but as Borg? No, I don't think it's possible to commit genocide against them.

How is it used to terrible effect in the real world? Poisoning ant hills? Avast? There's nothing like this scenario in the real world, genocide is committed against people...not machines.

I'm sure the Borg consider their right to existence at least equal to the rest of the galaxy. History is full of examples of one culture deciding that another is less worthy of existence and deciding to wipe them out.

Their mission is to bring the entire galaxy together in one collective. Ending conflict and strife.

And as seven has informed us, offer a form of eternal life to its drones.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

I'm sure the Borg consider their right to existence at least equal to the rest of the galaxy

That's just it though, they don't consider anything. They simply operate on basic precepts...acquire technology, assimilate, attack, defense, regenerate etc. There's no free will, or desire. They're very much like an insect hive mind.

History is full of examples of one culture deciding that another is less worthy of existence and deciding to wipe them out

Agreed, but out of all the races in Trek, the Borg are the only one I'm not sure can be considered a culture.

Their mission is to bring the entire galaxy together in one collective. Ending conflict and strife.

Not so much a mission, but an instruction to acquire & assimilate. Don't forget, they ignore lesser developed technology...so they wouldn't be bringing the galaxy together as one collective in that case.

And as seven has informed us, offer a form of eternal life to its drones.

Is this the dreamworld they go into while regenerating? Isn't this a form of mind control or something by the Queen?

Indricotherium

EnterNow wrote: »

Indricotherium wrote: »

I'm sure the Borg consider their right to existence at least equal to the rest of the galaxy

That's just it though, they don't consider anything. They simply operate on basic precepts...acquire technology, assimilate, attack, defense, regenerate etc. There's no free will, or desire. They're very much like an insect hive mind.

History is full of examples of one culture deciding that another is less worthy of existence and deciding to wipe them out

Agreed, but out of all the races in Trek, the Borg are the only one I'm not sure can be considered a culture.

Their mission is to bring the entire galaxy together in one collective. Ending conflict and strife.

Not so much a mission, but an instruction to acquire & assimilate. Don't forget, they ignore lesser developed technology...so they wouldn't be bringing the galaxy together as one collective in that case.

And as seven has informed us, offer a form of eternal life to its drones.

Is this the dreamworld they go into while regenerating? Isn't this a form of mind control or something by the Queen?

I think it's that their personalities echo in the collective after they die.

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

I think it's that their personalities echo in the collective after they die.

The personalities of the person who was assimilated perhaps, not the drone. Once your assimilated, your dead. If your freed, like Hugh & Seven, you can return to a somewhat normal state - but by then, your not Borg anymore.

nyarlothothep

Indricotherium wrote: »

I don't think it's up there with genocide though. Even if the Borg are bad guys.

I should add that it opens a wider debate on the morals of the federation, and star fleet as janeway was apparently promoted for her actions.

I think that the people writing Janeway were essentially reinforcing assumptions/ways of thinking that are prevalent in the so called "real world" and also reflecting the gung ho mindset among certain quarters of American society. So she acts unethically, rashly, shoots from the hip, is bossy/domineering and ruthless because in the "real world" as defined by "dominant personalities" these kinds of qualities are celebrated despite their attendant negative effects. It's a case of people confusing strength for competency as they so often do. This is why Janeway got promoted. In fact it would seem that despite Picard's doctrinarian protestations to Q that humanity has evolved, the Federation displays all the dysfunctional and primitive behavioural hallmarks of a standard political/corporate culture. This is why Janeway gets rewarded, because she neutralises threats like the Borg despite the ethicacy of how she got this result and this impresses the higher ups. Furthermore it eclipses all her smaller crimes, including torture, murder etc. The logical fallacy of the ends justifying the means is at work here. Of course in TNG the admiralty were shown think in exactly this way. But rather than Archer, Janeway is the personification of George Bush, or the Bush administration itself, full of imperialist swagger and authoritarian hubris. Janeway is a criminal and the greatest criminal in Star Trek as her actions were made even worse by the fact that she gets rewarded at the end for criminality. In this way Voyager very much accurately represents all the glaring flaws of our current primitive and mostly repugnant condition as a species. Janeway is actually worse than the Borg, the Borg don't realise what they do, if anything they want to improve life on the basis that assimilation is the way to go, Janeway however can contemplate on what she does and more often than not choose the wrong path.

Pride Fighter

Will go for some slightly outside the box ones.

Riker abandoning the crew of the Pegasus

Chief O'Brien killing all those Cardies on Settlek 3

Data joining his brother and the borg so he can feel emotions

Captain Maxwell killing all those Cardies in the Phoenix

Eddington betraying Sisko to join the Maquis

Michael Jonas betraying Voyager

Myrddin

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Will go for some slightly outside the box ones.

Riker abandoning the crew of the Pegasus

Hmm, technically Riker was on the correct side of the law. He sided with his Captain during a mutiny & I don't think any court martial would have broken him for it. Yes the experiments were unethical & illegal, but he was a junior officer.

Chief O'Brien killing all those Cardies on Settlek 3

Again it's hard to call this a crime, there was a war.

Data joining his brother and the borg so he can feel emotions

Lest we forget, he was being manipulated by Lor. Lor was sending out emotions to Data somehow & caused all that.

Captain Maxwell killing all those Cardies in the Phoenix

Yeah, that was wrong & unlawful. Good example

Eddington betraying Sisko to join the Maquis

Yep, also illegal. Treason

Michael Jonas betraying Voyager

Morally wrong for sure, but as a non-enlisted officer, can it be classed as a crime?

downwithpeace

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Will go for some slightly outside the box ones.

Chief O'Brien killing all those Cardies on Settlek 3

He describes the horrors of that place a few times and it was war so not necessarily a crime.

Data joining his brother and the borg so he can feel emotions

Data's code was being tweaked, no CTRL ALT DEL.

Eddington betraying Sisko to join the Maquis

Yes that's a good example and I would add Hudson to that.

Michael Jonas betraying Voyager

Wouldn't say so, he was a member of the Maquis and never had Star fleet training so his actions were more of a stab in the back to Janeway and Chakotay.


Ransom's actions on the Equinox must be a contender, using another species, reprogramming the Doctor and experimenting on 7.

Indricotherium

downwithpeace wrote: »

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Will go for some slightly outside the box ones.

Chief O'Brien killing all those Cardies on Settlek 3

He describes the horrors of that place a few times and it was war so not necessarily a crime.

Data joining his brother and the borg so he can feel emotions

Data's code was being tweaked, no CTRL ALT DEL.

Eddington betraying Sisko to join the Maquis

Yes that's a good example and I would add Hudson to that.

Michael Jonas betraying Voyager

Wouldn't say so, he was a member of the Maquis and never had Star fleet training so his actions were more of a stab in the back to Janeway and Chakotay.


Ransom's actions on the Equinox must be a contender, using another species, reprogramming the Doctor and experimenting on 7.

+1

Another example of starfleet abandoning its principles immediately need arises as well.

Ransom is far from a main character though.

Indricotherium

Another that just came to mind is Spock commandeering the enterprise and using it to disobey general order 7 and visit Talos.

Kurn

EnterNow wrote: »

His only crime per se, was the fraudulent holosuite showing. I agree he's responsible as much as Garak for the death of the senator...but I think given the choice he'd have walked away rather than commit murder. Indirectly responsible for murder I'd call it.

Great thread btw :cool:

"It's a fake", gave me goose pimples at the time

monkeypants

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Eddington betraying Sisko to join the Maquis

Didn't Sisko poison an entire planet and threaten to do it again just to bring Eddington in? Been years since I watched any form of ST and there are many, many episodes of Enterprise that I missed...

Great thread, Op! :cool:

helimachoptor

Quark says it best, Humans are enlightened until they feel threatened then everything goes out the window for survival

Goldstein

helimachoptor wrote: »

Quark says it best, Humans are enlightened until they feel threatened then everything goes out the window for survival

I love that line from Quark in The Siege of AR-558.

"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes."

opinion guy

Goldstein wrote: »

I love that line from Quark in The Siege of AR-558.

"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes."

Lol....funny cause its true.


Ok I have two.

1. Didn't Janeway trade anti-8472 nanites with the Borg in exchange for safe passage through Borg space ? Or something. Selling weapons to a warring race to commit genocide....pretty dark that.

2. Odo abandoned Kira and the Federation for months on end whilst he partook in the great big founder circle-jerk did he not ? Dereliction of duty and treason surely ?

IvySlayer

opinion guy wrote: »

1. Didn't Janeway trade anti-8472 nanites with the Borg in exchange for safe passage through Borg space ? Or something. Selling weapons to a warring race to commit genocide....pretty dark that.

2. Odo abandoned Kira and the Federation for months on end whilst he partook in the great big founder circle-jerk did he not ? Dereliction of duty and treason surely ?

In fairness to her, 8472 did threaten to destroy everything in their path.

Odo wasn't a Starfleet Officer nor a member of the Federation.

norrie rugger

IvySlayer wrote: »

In fairness to her, 8472 did threaten to destroy everything in their path.

Odo wasn't a Starfleet Officer nor a member of the Federation.

She could have waited till Borg were defeated and then see if 8172 were an actuak threat, then show them that she had the potential to defeat them. As it was she gave the Borg the means to wipe them out, interfering in a war just to get safe passage

Indricotherium

norrie rugger wrote: »

IvySlayer wrote: »

In fairness to her, 8472 did threaten to destroy everything in their path.

Odo wasn't a Starfleet Officer nor a member of the Federation.

She could have waited till Borg were defeated and then see if 8172 were an actuak threat, then show them that she had the potential to defeat them. As it was she gave the Borg the means to wipe them out, interfering in a war just to get safe passage

Where was the prime directive that day.

Then she has the gall to turn on Ransom when he commits a much lesser crime. Kettle pot or what.

I find janeway a hateful character. Up there with Kai Winn for the most hateful character in star trek IMO.

Both hypocritical leaders in situation with almost no oversight or control.

Both in that situation due to a calamitous series of events that wasn't their doing.

Both willing to lean on a set of ideals when it suits them, but completely ignore them when it goes the other way.

downwithpeace

norrie rugger wrote: »

She could have waited till Borg were defeated and then see if 8172 were an actuak threat, then show them that she had the potential to defeat them. As it was she gave the Borg the means to wipe them out, interfering in a war just to get safe passage

Janeway already knew 8172 planed to exterminate everything before she teamed up with the Borg.

norrie rugger

downwithpeace wrote: »

Janeway already knew 8172 planed to exterminate everything before she teamed up with the Borg.

They had not officially declared war on the Federation nor attacked any of their planets. The Borg, on the other hand, had attacked the Federation.
Voyager had a weapon that nullified the Species threat, so no immediate threat to Voyager/Federation. Only reason to interfere was to get a shortcut.

downwithpeace

norrie rugger wrote: »

They had not officially declared war on the Federation nor attacked any of their planets. The Borg, on the other hand, had attacked the Federation.
Voyager had a weapon that nullified the Species threat, so no immediate threat to Voyager/Federation. Only reason to interfere was to get a shortcut.

Kes had visions of dead Borg and the destruction of Voyager, then after Voyager had retrieved the crew from the damaged Cube Kes is told by 8472 something about lesser species will be destroyed which they repeat more then once. It was after that that the deal was made with the Borg.

norrie rugger

Kes had a vision is reason enough?

Also she had no need to help the Borg, as I said she could have waited till the Borg were gone and THEN shown 8472 that she had a weapon capable of destroying them. She chose to help the Borg and allow her ship safe passage

opinion guy

IvySlayer wrote: »

In fairness to her, 8472 did threaten to destroy everything in their path.

Odo wasn't a Starfleet Officer nor a member of the Federation.

Pedant. He had starfleet security clearance. And he definitely betrayed the station where he was posted.

norrie rugger wrote: »

Kes had a vision is reason enough?

:rolleyes:
Kes and her f**kin visions. And her feelings :rolleyes:

downwithpeace

You might want to watch the episodes again, Voyager was working on an Anti-Borg weapon not an Anti-8472 weapon, to make the Anti-8472 weapon Voyager needed the Borg.

Sonics2k

I would say most things Janeway did over the period of the series.

Whilst her intentions were 'good' in a manner of speaking, her mission to get the crew home at any cost, she was also the cause of increasing amounts of war, murder and so much more in the Quadrant.

nyarlothothep

Sonics2k wrote: »

I would say most things Janeway did over the period of the series.

Whilst her intentions were 'good' in a manner of speaking, her mission to get the crew home at any cost, she was also the cause of increasing amounts of war, murder and so much more in the Quadrant.

I blame the writers, and it plays into the ends justifying the means mentality/federation exceptionalism mindset. Basically if Janeway does something completely unethical it's ok because she represents the "good guys." Sci Fi Debris, as much as he's criticised in this forum, made a really good point about Janeway's character, basically she is presented as never being wrong, any alternative viewpoint is blocked out. So if anything she reflects badly on the writers!

Daith

opinion guy wrote: »

Pedant. He had starfleet security clearance. And he definitely betrayed the station where he was posted.

You mean the station that was under Dominion rule after Bajor's non-aggression treaty with the Dominion? How exactly did he betray a Dominion run station?

SeanW

Voyagers crew had sufficient cause to believe that Species 8472 was going to exterminate all life in the Milky Way Galaxy. They also had zero defenses against them as 8742s weapons (they were able to destroy entire planets and/or Borg armadas in a few seconds) and shields were dramatically superior.

komodosp

Genocide or not, I 'm not sure attempting to destroy the Borg is such a crime - In any other situation, in war, military targets are fair game.

But what do you do when the entire race is part of the military? (This was before Hugh created that splinter group)

Kirby

komodosp wrote: »

Genocide or not, I 'm not sure attempting to destroy the Borg is such a crime

Picard would disagree with you. But then, you mentioned hugh so I think you know that already.

Indricotherium wrote: »

Then she has the gall to turn on Ransom when he commits a much lesser crime. Kettle pot or what.

Thats not the same. At all.

Much lesser crime? Ransom was murdering an innocent species for his own gain. There was nothing innocent about 8472. They wanted to exterminate all life.

They were only humanized later on in the holodeck episode where they negotiated a truce with Janeway....... and to a lesser extent, the episode where 8472 is hunted by the hirogen and just wants to go home. Up until that point, they had just been portrayed as violent and bloodthirsty and not content with merely defeating the borg.

Indricotherium wrote: »

I find janeway a hateful character. Up there with Kai Winn for the most hateful character in star trek IMO.

Both hypocritical leaders in situation with almost no oversight or control.

Both in that situation due to a calamitous series of events that wasn't their doing.

Both willing to lean on a set of ideals when it suits them, but completely ignore them when it goes the other way.

Janeway always tries to do the right thing but she gets alot wrong and makes more mistakes than any of the other captains. Thats what makes her a better character than most of the characters in trek. She's flawed.

Voyager was in inferior show with an inferior cast of characters overall. But Janeway was a more realistic portroyal of what a captain would really be like. You would spend alot of time wrestling with doing the right thing and getting your crew home. You would bend the rules and then wonder if you are losing your humanity by doing so. You would be ridiculously protective of your crew. You would make a balls of everything occassionally because of it.

Kirk, Picard and Archer aren't realistic characters. Kirk's womanising is ridiculous for a captain and Picard and Archer are just too perfect. Even their flaws aren't realistic.

Sisko and Janeway were better captains because you saw them mess up occasionally. I liked that. Ask any DS9 fan and they will tell you that Sisko's obsession with Eddington was one of their favourite parts of the show, besides Garak . They will tell you they loved it when he lied and cheated to get the Romulans into the war. Sure when one of the main characters dies on him at the end of season 6....... he kind of abandons his post and wallows in a fit of depression. These are things that real people would do.

Star trek may be a show about a near perfect Utopian society, but a show with perfect characters isn't interesting.

Pride Fighter

Spock for appearing in the last film

Gary L

Are we talking main characters or Main federation officers?
That founder ordering the genocide on Cardassia has to take the cake.
If its just federation, maybe star fleet medical infecting odo to wipe out the link.