conscription in ireland?

fianna saor

would it be that bad an idea for mandatory army/navy etc service for a period in ireland? it seems that the younger generation have a lack of discipline and a poor attitude to a large extent. surely a term in the forces would go some way to rectifying that not to mention the overall benefit towards health and fitness etc. i know there is an argument that we dont need a lot of personnel in the forces but we could increase the likes of the peace keeping missions and a larger naval service could possibly be used to patrol more of our waters to reduce some of the illegal drug shipments that enter our country not to mention border control.

FatherLen

yeah, it's a touchy one but i think i would be for it.

davet82

yeah they should be made do it, mainly because i'm not the younger generation anymore and wouldnt have to do it so fcuk 'em

Shenshen

While most people would probably get through this reasonably unscathed, I loath the thought of members of a particular segment getting trained up in armed and unarmed combat, financed by the state....

Believe me, this is not a good idea.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Wait for the EU to introduce a common defense policy then we'll get our conscription and much more. :pac:

Battered Mars Bar

Yea that should be the reason why we've child benefit in the first place to support the lower classes in producing our army :pac: Money well spent to keep the Brits out.

Dangerous Man

Absolutely we should have it - it helps to build character in young people. I would bet everything I own that if we had a mandatory program where teens must undergo military training for a year at age 17 or so, we'd have much, much less problems with anti-social behaviour. Other countries in Europe do this with great results.

Sleepy

Yeah, train the scumbags to kill people... that'll end well...

ejmaztec

Conscripts would have to do it for nothing because there would be no money to pay for them, and they would all die of starvation.

fianna saor

Shenshen wrote: »

While most people would probably get through this reasonably unscathed, I loath the thought of members of a particular segment getting trained up in armed and unarmed combat, financed by the state....

Believe me, this is not a good idea.

i can kind of read between the lines of what our saying and yes its a fair point but wouldnt it increase the discipline to some extent in that 'segment' and improve society overall

MagicMarker

Instead of a transition year they can all fúck off to the army for the year.

Shenshen

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Absolutely we should have it - it helps to build character in young people. I would bet everything I own that if we had a mandatory program where teens must undergo military training for a year at age 17 or so, we'd have much, much less problems with anti-social behaviour. Other countries in Europe do this with great results.

Is that why places like Germany are currently doing away with conscription then?
I've heard this nonsense plenty of times, but having grown up in a small town in Germany with a large US amry base, and a sizeable German military base not far off, I can assure you that discipline will only last as long as there's someone around to shout at them. Once that person has turned his back, the civilians are best advised to run and hide - fast.

Unavailable for Comment

Conscript them - Train them - Hire them out as mercenaries in Africa - Profit.

Scioch

I dunno, the army from what I hear is just as full of scum as anywhere else. A lot of dodgy fcukers were drafted into it in times gone by.

The few I do know who are in the army dont exactly paint it in a good light and themselves wouldnt be model citizens. I've heard stories of all sorts about peace keeping missions too.

I'm not sure how much it would change anyone's attitude.

golden lane

Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Yea that should be the reason why we've child benefit in the first place to support the lower classes in producing our army :pac: Money well spent to keep the Brits out.

there wont be any left soon to keep anybody out......

never mind, us ex pats are happy......

Dravokivich

So you want to send the people pricking about here off somewhere else to prick about is it?

Conscription isn't something that should be taken lightly. You can't just wrap up some scumbag in a uniform, boot camp their ass and ship'em off. It takes a certain mindset to be a soldier.

Bullseye1

I don't see the downside in conscription.

Shenshen

fianna saor wrote: »

i can kind of read between the lines of what our saying and yes its a fair point but wouldnt it increase the discipline to some extent in that 'segment' and improve society overall

Why would it?
What makes you think that a anti-socially disposed person would suddenly turn into a social one, just because they were shouted at for a few months, had to get up at ungodly hours, and learned how to gain the upper hand in a fight?

Battered Mars Bar

golden lane wrote: »

there wont be any left soon to keep anybody out......

never mind, us ex pats are happy......

Well logically then we raise child benefit and keep our booming export industry in full swing :pac:

Scioch

Shenshen wrote: »

Why would it?
What makes you think that a anti-socially disposed person would suddenly turn into a social one, just because they were shouted at for a few months, had to get up at ungodly hours, and learned how to gain the upper hand in a fight?

Movies I imagine.

megaten

fianna saor wrote: »

it seems that the younger generation have a lack of discipline and a poor attitude to a large extent

Every generation says that about the next one. They're not particularly undisciplined you're just old.

Children have always been nasty creatures.

fianna saor

Shenshen wrote: »

Why would it?
What makes you think that a anti-socially disposed person would suddenly turn into a social one, just because they were shouted at for a few months, had to get up at ungodly hours, and learned how to gain the upper hand in a fight?

eh discipline, something thats missing in a lot of anti social persons

Skid

fianna saor wrote: »

i know there is an argument that we dont need a lot of personnel in the forces but we could increase the likes of the peace keeping missions

Conscripting unwilling teenagers and sending them into warzones with guns to keep peace between warring factions?

Worst idea ever.

golden lane

Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Well logically then we raise child benefit and keep our booming export industry in full swing :pac:

great idea......you can get a loan off us ex pats.........

Shenshen

LordSmeg wrote: »

Movies I imagine.

Heh. You mean those portraying soldiers as diamonds in the raw, rough guys but with a heart so full of gold it would bring a tear to your eye?
The ones the US army helps finance?
Those?

mikemac1

When I'm strolling around my local town I'd prefer to see a professional solider outside my Ulster Bank instead of an ill disciplined violent skanger dressed up in a uniform and handed a Steyr

Shenshen

fianna saor wrote: »

eh discipline, something thats missing in a lot of anti social persons

So instead of undisciplined scum you get organised scum?
Doesn't sound such a big improvement?

MaxSteele

The amount of tossers and muppets I know who have signed up already ... I don't think it's as good as we may think it would be. Not that I would've minded doing it myself.

Plus, compared to the conscription in Eastern Europe .. ours would be like a trip to Fort Lucan. :rolleyes:

Scioch

Shenshen wrote: »

Heh. You mean those portraying soldiers as diamonds in the raw, rough guys but with a heart so full of gold it would bring a tear to your eye?
The ones the US army helps finance?
Those?

Yeah thats them. Then usually when they leave the army and go home they help old ladies and take on the local gangs with the help of their army buddies and sort the whole thing out.

Dravokivich

fianna saor wrote: »

eh discipline, something thats missing in a lot of anti social persons

So you suggest to make the Army a domestic social policy?

Why not investigate what leads to such social issues and address that?

Battered Mars Bar

golden lane wrote: »

great idea......you can get a loan off us ex pats.........

Nah you're grand, we've some bailout monies behind the sofa I think.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

fianna saor wrote: »

eh discipline, something thats missing in a lot of anti social persons

Exactly how is that answering the question....? You seem to assume that people automatically submit to the will of a drill instructor.

I'd be in favour of some form of national service, but not miltary service. I have a couple of friends who are/were in the army and the last thing they said they'd want is a bunch of people who simply don't want to be there.

mattjack

Can we just hold the thread...?

I want to get into my attic to get my Grandpappys 'ol Lee Enfield and tin hat..

where do I sign up ?

fianna saor

Shenshen wrote: »

So instead of undisciplined scum you get organised scum?
Doesn't sound such a big improvement?

do i detect a bit of snobbery in your posts? the idea would be to try and mould these young people into better individuals

c_man

Wouldn't fancy being an indentured slave to the state myself.

Unavailable for Comment

In 2012 a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a criminal court for a crime they most certainly did commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Irish underground.

Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as thieves and burglars for fortunes. If you have a problem, if no one else can help and if you can't avoid them, maybe you can find the A(SBO) Team . . . robbing your gaf.

Dun Dun Duuun!

Pushtrak

fianna saor wrote: »

do i detect a bit of snobbery in your posts? the idea would be to try and mould these young people into better individuals

Any basis for presuming this to be the outcome?

southcentralts

Conscription to an army engaging in peacekeeping efforts would be acceptable IMO. Far better then being shipped off to fight a war without any valid reason for being there.

Dravokivich

fianna saor wrote: »

do i detect a bit of snobbery in your posts? the idea would be to try and mould these young people into better individuals

And what about those who are mild mannered and aren't anti-social?

southcentralts wrote: »

Conscription to an army engaging in peacekeeping efforts would be acceptable IMO. Far better then being shipped off to fight a war without any valid reason for being there.

Peacekeeping =/= not in a hostile environment

fianna saor

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Exactly how is that answering the question....? You seem to assume that people automatically submit to the will of a drill instructor.

I'd be in favour of some form of national service, but not miltary service. I have a couple of friends who are/were in the army and the last thing they said they'd want is a bunch of people who simply don't want to be there.

what kind of service would you have in mind?

golden lane

these so called undiciplined people.......have rights, and i am sure they would use them to stop the army from being too hard.....

Shanegggg

fianna saor wrote: »

do i detect a bit of snobbery in your posts? the idea would be to try and mould these young people into better individuals

Is this not the job of the parents?

Why should the government be held responsible for these undisciplined youths that you speaks of!

Shenshen

fianna saor wrote: »

do i detect a bit of snobbery in your posts? the idea would be to try and mould these young people into better individuals

Via the military? I hate to break it to you, but the military doesn't exactly have the best record at improving anybody's social awareness.
And that's fine, at the end of the day that's not its purpose anyway.

fianna saor

Pushtrak wrote: »

Any basis for presuming this to be the outcome?

nothing solid as such ^^ presuming being the operative word. i did know a guy though that changed dramatically due to no small part his time in the army

Dravokivich wrote: »

And what about those who are mild mannered and aren't anti-social?

also included

CL7

c_man wrote: »

Wouldn't fancy being an indentured slave to the state myself.

Oh most/all of the people in this thread that are on favour of conscription woudn't fancy it either. Forcing other people into military service just because they were lucky enough to be born in this country, now that's a different story.

Shenshen

fianna saor wrote: »

what kind of service would you have in mind?

Well, if you're hellbent on subscribing young people to do something with the aim of making them more socially aware and responsible, I would suggest any kind of social service.
Helping in retirement homes, working with the homeless, the kind of things the state never has enough money for but that would be needed.

EddyC15

As far as I know, in Germany they have the option of a year of community service or military service. When I was there most of them went for the community service.

I believe that, through conscription, we'd mostly be teaching discipline and respect and not creating some new expendable youth force trained in lethal martial arts.

Community service would work the same way. Through working for the sake of giving something back people would be more respectful of where their community.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

fianna saor wrote: »

what kind of service would you have in mind?

Charity work would be a good example. Some countires allow (or used to) non-army military training, such as communications or trasnport, which, while living on a barracks, would never result in being called up to fight.

The problem with consription is that it goes against basic freedoms, for example, conscientious objectors or pacifists and freedom of speech.

RedFFWolf

fianna saor wrote: »

do i detect a bit of snobbery in your posts? the idea would be to try and mould these young people into better individuals

Hate to break it to ya, but if there is any detection of snobbery, it appears to be right in your posts. Send a couple of young people to the army, in which you have insinuated for the most part are anti-social in the first place, so hopefully for those of an older generation (not gone through the "conscription process") they can have a more peaceful society.

Some people (many I'd say) for some reason I cannot fathom, just don't seem to flourish under strict authority; ludicrous that some would attempt to think and command themselves in societal life.
(My apologies I'm getting sarcastic here towards the end - I included this bit here just before I hit the send button, but I think it wise I don't delete it still).

fianna saor

Shanegggg wrote: »

Is this not the job of the parents?

Why should the government be held responsible for these undisciplined youths that you speaks of!

i didnt say they were responsible i just offered a thought on a possible solution, and as for that old chestnut of 'blame the parents' thats just bullsh1t

mikemac1

Sign them up

It's raining heavily and those sandbags don't fill themselves