conscription in ireland?

Pushtrak

fianna saor wrote: »

nothing solid as such ^^ presuming being the operative word. i did know a guy though that changed dramatically due to no small part his time in the army

I don't think forcing people in to an institution is going to be good for society as a whole. Go back a few decades - century, and parents were seeing to it that a son would become a priest and a daughter would become a nun. That didn't exactly turn out too well for society. Not really figuring one getting military training is going to end up with better applications down the road from such a policy as this thread suggests.

Unavailable for Comment

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The problem with consription is that it goes against basic freedoms, for example, conscientious objectors or pacifists and freedom of speech.

This is the Irish Army though. I'm pretty sure the majority of troops we have now have never fired a shot in anger. It's pretty much designed for conscientious objectors and pacifists!!

SafeSurfer

fianna saor wrote: »

would it be that bad an idea for mandatory army/navy etc service for a period in ireland? it seems that the younger generation have a lack of discipline and a poor attitude to a large extent. surely a term in the forces would go some way to rectifying that not to mention the overall benefit towards health and fitness etc. i know there is an argument that we dont need a lot of personnel in the forces but we could increase the likes of the peace keeping missions and a larger naval service could possibly be used to patrol more of our waters to reduce some of the illegal drug shipments that enter our country not to mention border control.

Are you talking about compulsory national service or conscription?

You say the younger generation have a poor attitude and a spell in the defence forces would help them.

From my experience some of the most obnoxious people I have ever encountered were members of the defence forces, especially the army.

Benefits to health and fitness you say. About half of our defence force members are obese or overweight similar to the UK.

http://obesity.thehealthwell.info/newsroom/current-affairs/half-british-soldiers-are-obese-or-overweight

What border patrol are you talking about?

Dravokivich

fianna saor wrote: »

also included

You appear to have missed my point.

What is the purpose of someone who is not a threat to society to be conscripted? Your thread is targetted to those who present a threat to society and using "Military Dicipline" as a method of them learning the value of it.

You are punishing Jack for John's problems.

That presents a big issue to me with your plan. Most people in society are able to interact within society quite well without any issues. You only notice lower amount of people who are anti-social because they make a lot of noise pricking about.

Shenshen

EddyC15 wrote: »

As far as I know, in Germany they have the option of a year of community service or military service. When I was there most of them went for the community service.

I believe that, through conscription, we'd mostly be teaching discipline and respect and not creating some new expendable youth force trained in lethal martial arts.

Community service would work the same way. Through working for the sake of giving something back people would be more respectful of where their community.

Not any more, they've been working on the legal framework to do away with it for some time now, and have stopped conscripting in 2011.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

This is the Irish Army though. I'm pretty sure the majority of troops we have now have never fired a shot in anger. It's pretty much designed for conscientious objectors and pacifists!!

The one could argue the point of having an army in the first place...!

In any case, plenty of Irish soldiers see service abroad under the UN banner.

ScumLord

Shenshen wrote: »

While most people would probably get through this reasonably unscathed, I loath the thought of members of a particular segment getting trained up in armed and unarmed combat, financed by the state....

Believe me, this is not a good idea.

The service could easily be used to spot those kind of characters.

I'm not against it as such but it would be a waste of time considering we'd have nothing to do with these military men so we'd effectively be spending time and money training them up for an event that is unlikely to ever happen. If we could run FAS in a military style I'd be more for that.

fianna saor

EddyC15 wrote: »

As far as I know, in Germany they have the option of a year of community service or military service. When I was there most of them went for the community service.

I believe that, through conscription, we'd mostly be teaching discipline and respect and not creating some new expendable youth force trained in lethal martial arts.

Community service would work the same way. Through working for the sake of giving something back people would be more respectful of where their community.

thats not a bad idea having the option for military or communty i mean.

RedFFWolf wrote: »

Hate to break it to ya, but if there is any detection of snobbery, it appears to be right in your posts. Send a couple of young people to the army, in which you have insinuated for the most part are anti-social in the first place, so hopefully for those of an older generation (not gone through the "conscription process") they can have a more peaceful society.

Some people (many I'd say) for some reason I cannot fathom, just don't seem to flourish under strict authority; ludicrous that some would attempt to think and command themselves in societal life.
(My apologies I'm getting sarcastic here towards the end - I included this bit here just before I hit the send button, but I think it wise I don't delete it still).

how do you detect snobbery from my posts i mentioned the conscription being for all walks of life, the disciplinary part was just one side of it

Kurz

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

This is the Irish Army though. I'm pretty sure the majority of troops we have now have never fired a shot in anger. It's pretty much designed for conscientious objectors and pacifists!!

You say that like as if it's a bad thing.

Shenshen

ScumLord wrote: »

The service could easily be used to spot those kind of characters.

I'm not against it as such but it would be a waste of time considering we'd have nothing to do with these military men so we'd effectively be spending time and money training them up for an event that is unlikely to ever happen. If we could run FAS in a military style I'd be more for that.

FAS as consciption... yes, I could see that work. Well, almost.
It definitely would make a lot more sense than teaching people how to use heavy artillery in the hope that this will teach them discipline.

Pushtrak

fianna saor wrote: »

i didnt say they were responsible i just offered a thought on a possible solution, and as for that old chestnut of 'blame the parents' thats just bullsh1t

It isn't always true, but it is far from bullsh1t as you put it. On what do you base this? Not sociological research, I'd wager, but gut instinct. Which, honestly, adds nothing to the discussion.

davetherave

AH Answer:
What if the state just takes the children off of those in receipt of single parents allowance and mould them into super soldiers.
Or else start conscription, and introduce a Non-conscription Charge of five grand. That'll get the country back on it's feet.

Non AH Answer:Why should the Defence Forces be stuck with some useless pillock for a year? Between those who would much rather be at home playing call of duty, those who would keel over from a heart attack during their first section attack or those who are the subversive types out to get military training.

It is a volunteer force, lets keep it that way.

yermanoffthetv

Instead of conscripting young people, (which would cost a fortune) how about you build youth clubs to give them a place to go and take up a new hobby or sport instead of hanging around street corners. Also Im not sure the army would be too happy to be loaded up with people who didnt want to be there.

fianna saor

Dravokivich wrote: »

You appear to have missed my point.

What is the purpose of someone who is not a threat to society to be conscripted? Your thread is targetted to those who present a threat to society and using "Military Dicipline" as a method of them learning the value of it.

You are punishing Jack for John's problems.

That presents a big issue to me with your plan. Most people in society are able to interact within society quite well without any issues. You only notice lower amount of people who are anti-social because they make a lot of noise pricking about.

ok to clarify im not talking about just sending those with anti social issues im talking about the process applying to everybody, i just used the discipline as one argument

mikemac1

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Benefits to health and fitness you say. About half of our defence force members are obese or overweight similar to the UK.

http://obesity.thehealthwell.info/newsroom/current-affairs/half-british-soldiers-are-obese-or-overweight

That's largely changed now, the days of the obese 40 year old corporal are over.

A lot of people got pensioned off and the average age has come down a lot

They have their pick of candidates now, they can choose the very best applicants

Unavailable for Comment

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In any case, plenty of Irish soldiers see service abroad under the UN banner.

They do and and fair play to them for it. Still though we just aren't involved in enough wars to justify exponentially increasing the size of our defense forces. These people would have to be paid after all.

I suppose we could hire them out to the UN or NATO maybe? Isn't that what Cuba used to do in the 70s.

Ellis Dee

I had a look at this thread before I went out for a walk with the dog and, as it happened, met another dog owner I know who is a colonel in the Finnish Defence Forces. Here, every physically able male has to serve six, nine or twelve months in the military or else do alternative non-armed civilian service. I asked him what he thought of the military as a means of socialising young people and he replied (saying something that I knew already) that the purpose of military training is to prepare people to defend their country if necessary, not to socialise them. Socialisation is a task for the home, schools and society in general, and if society can't take care of that, then the country wouldn't be worth defending anyway.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

SafeSurfer

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Absolutely we should have it - it helps to build character in young people. I would bet everything I own that if we had a mandatory program where teens must undergo military training for a year at age 17 or so, we'd have much, much less problems with anti-social behaviour. Other countries in Europe do this with great results.

Six European countries have conscription.
Austria
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
Greece
Norway
Switzerland

Can you link to any evidence of lower rates of youth anti social behaviour in countries with compulsory national service like Estonia compared to those without such as Sweden?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

EddyC15 wrote: »

As far as I know, in Germany they have the option of a year of community service or military service. When I was there most of them went for the community service.

I believe that, through conscription, we'd mostly be teaching discipline and respect and not creating some new expendable youth force trained in lethal martial arts.

Community service would work the same way. Through working for the sake of giving something back people would be more respectful of where their community.

They scrapped it last year.

And exactly how do you teach "respect"? You either respect something or you don't - it's not something you can teach or learn. you have to earn it, and the army simple has no interst in doign that to reluctant subjects.

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

Instead of conscripting young people, (which would cost a fortune) how about you build youth clubs to give them a place to go and take up a new hobby or sport instead of hanging around street corners. Also Im not sure the army would be too happy to be loaded up with people who didnt want to be there.

Because that would be liberal and creative and logical and result in teenagers actually devlopign a mind of their own. So that'll never happen!

Shenshen

fianna saor wrote: »

ok to clarify im not talking about just sending those with anti social issues im talking about the process applying to everybody, i just used the discipline as one argument

And you've already admitted that your idea of the military teaching people discipline is not based on anything other than assumptions (possibly brought on by consumption of too many Hollywood hero movies).

So what other argument would you have for conscription?

fianna saor

Pushtrak wrote: »

It isn't always true, but it is far from bullsh1t as you put it. On what do you base this? Not sociological research, I'd wager, but gut instinct. Which, honestly, adds nothing to the discussion.

no actually more than gut instinct ive lived in many areas with many different social backgrounds. ive known people from broken homes end up in very lucrative surroundings lets say and also the opposite one in particular coming from a very high standard of living (parents would actually be known to many) ending up as a junkie strung out on heroine amongst other things

Mr Benevolent

Terrible idea. We've no reason to conscript except to take people off the Live Register. And making it mandatory to train people to kill strangers is not a very good idea.

Capt'n Midnight

There are more people doing Honours Maths in the leaving than in the Defence forces.


59,500 doing the Junior Cert so if we had Israeli levels of conscription the recruits would outnumber the pdf 15:1

mikemac1

Confab wrote: »

Terrible idea. We've no reason to conscript except to take people off the Live Register.

It'll probably happen so!

Politicians love nothing more then fiddling statistics

Wow, aren't I brilliant says Joan Burton, the live register figures are way down :cool:

Sure it's why they shift long term unemployed people onto disability

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Shenshen wrote: »

Via the military? I hate to break it to you, but the military doesn't exactly have the best record at improving anybody's social awareness.
And that's fine, at the end of the day that's not its purpose anyway.

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

This is the Irish Army though. I'm pretty sure the majority of troops we have now have never fired a shot in anger. It's pretty much designed for conscientious objectors and pacifists!!

You are highly contradicting yourself here, I doubt anyone in the DF could be described as a"conscientious objector" or a "pacifist", dont be ridiculous. The opportunity would not normally arise to fire a shot in anger. They are trained to weight up the pro's, con's and repercussions of firing shots.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

From my experience some of the most obnoxious people I have ever encountered were members of the defence forces, especially the army

Can you elaborate please?

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Benefits to health and fitness you say. About half of our defence force members are obese or overweight similar to the UK.

http://obesity.thehealthwell.info/newsroom/current-affairs/half-british-soldiers-are-obese-or-overweight

That is not entirely true. I would say maybe 30% at maximum, but that does not indicate that they cannot perform their duties as a soldier. There is a huge fitness culture in the DF, most overweight soldiers owe the excess weight due to injuries sustained throughout their career.


I do not believe in a years military service at all. This country is not suited to such a concept. It would not be financially or logistically viable to run such a programme. There would be major resistance to it and I believe there would be further distain for the DF as a whole.

Pushtrak

fianna saor wrote: »

no actually more than gut instinct ive lived in many areas with many different social backgrounds. ive known people from broken homes end up in very lucrative surroundings lets say and also the opposite one in particular coming from a very high standard of living (parents would actually be known to many) ending up as a junkie strung out on heroine amongst other things

You should read up about the formative years.

http://www.searo.who.int/en/Section980/Section1162/Section1167/Section1171_4765.htm
http://www.planetberries.com/formative-years.html

CruelCoin

Depends.

If its 6 months of drill instructor yelling in your face, and jogging up mountains everyday, then yes.

If its 6 months of getting pished every evening holiday camp, then no.

We could barely defend our country from a single british battalion exercise, let alone a full scale invasion.

Long overdue i reckon.

davetherave

MaxSteele wrote: »

The amount of tossers and muppets I know who have signed up already ... I don't think it's as good as we may think it would be.

Why don't you join up then, instead of badmouthing those who are serving?

SafeSurfer wrote: »

From my experience some of the most obnoxious people I have ever encountered were members of the defence forces, especially the army.
Benefits to health and fitness you say. About half of our defence force members are obese or overweight similar to the UK.
http://obesity.thehealthwell.info/newsroom/current-affairs/half-british-soldiers-are-obese-or-overweight

Why exactly were they obnoxious? Are you the sort who go up to them on a CiT, start annoying them and then get huffy when they tell you to bugger off?

Have you got any links that refer to the Irish Defence Forces, from the Republic of Ireland. "About half"? What scientific research group came up with that detailed analysis?
Bearing in mind that unlike our neighbours, we are able to pick and choose the best of those who apply.

Capt'n Midnight

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Six European countries have conscription.
Austria
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
Greece
Norway
Switzerland

Can you link to any evidence of lower rates of youth anti social behaviour in countries with compulsory national service like Estonia compared to those without such as Sweden?

or better still documented changes in anti-social behaviour linked to when countries phased in or out conscription

Capt'n Midnight

then again we could conscript people to fit water meters , check septic tanks and all those other one-off jobs that need to be done

and best of all they will do it for half nothing

Pushtrak

I'm going to conscript people to post on boards for me so I can procrastinate from procrastinating.

Unavailable for Comment

mikemac1 wrote: »

Wow, aren't I brilliant says Joan Burton, the live register figures are way down :cool:

If she was serious about getting the figures down she would combine the ideas from this thread with the ideas from the buying people thread and conscript the 400000 people on the live register as slaves for wealthy foreigners.

This simple measure could bring in up to €40 billion a year for the exchequer. We would need to upgrade our conscripts but we could easily replace Leaving Cert subjects like Maths or Physics with more appropriate courses like "Vegetable Picking" or "Hareem Dancing" to enhance their potential value.

Add to that the €18 billion a year saved in no longer servicing the social welfare bill and we're looking at the guts of €60 billion a year. If we make them give a two year stint for "National Service" we're looking at an easy €120 billion.

Then when we return to the markets to get another loan to "emancipate" our citizens our hugely improved debt ratios will allow us to get the money cheaply and as well as that we'll have two more years of "conscripts" just ripened for collateral. That's around 100000 people or, more importantly 10 billion euro.

As well as that is the fact that obviously all the conscripts won't have survived to their discharge date meaning even more profit as well as an unsatisfied market.

Obviously word of our fantastic policies will spread and I'm sure those bloody Greeks will try and muscle in but we'll have a unique advantage having established ourselves already. We could also run special offers like buy one, get one cheap at Paddy's day for example.

Just think, by implementing these simple changes we could all get another shot at buying even more unnecessary stuff or maybe, just maybe, more one bed apartments for EVERYONE! Well, everyone except the conscripts but well, they get the gift of social responsibility which is priceless. Or valueless I guess, depending on whether or not you're one of them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

CruelCoin wrote: »

Depends.

If its 6 months of drill instructor yelling in your face, and jogging up mountains everyday, then yes.

If its 6 months of getting pished every evening holiday camp, then no.

We could barely defend our country from a single british battalion exercise, let alone a full scale invasion.

Long overdue i reckon.

Joking discriptions aside (how do you equate the army with a holiday camp??), are you sure you got that the right way round? The first one sounds purley sadistic and the second one - well, what woudl be the point even if your discription was accurate?

Herb Powell

I always thought that conscription was something reserved as a desperate measure during war.

Joining the army is not Call of fuucking Duty, and the sooner people realise that, the better.

up for anything

Of all the stupid ideas put forward on AH this one has to the most asinine. :rolleyes:

Jester252

It should replace ASBOs

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jester252 wrote: »

It should replace ASBOs

Reaction by those convicted will be the same.

Milk & Honey

The notion of conscription in Ireland is unworkable as things stand, so should not be touted as a solution to anything. It would be necessary to take approximately 60,000 individuals annually. Basic military training takes about 6 months.That means 30,000 would be in training at any one time. All would have to live in military accommodation for this period. Sufficient accommodation does not exist at present. The military cannot accommodate a multiple of its existing number. Training is labour intensive. A recruit platoon numbers about 35. It requires a lieutenant, a sergeant and a few corporals. Other personnel are needed to support the training in the form of medical, stores, transport, catering and security. Having 30,000 in training would require the services of about 8,000 to 10,000 full time personnel. This would approximately double the size of the current defence force and require the construction of many buildings and the acquisition of more weapons and transport. there would be a huge hit in terms of future pension costs. Add in the administration costs and tracking down shirkers. At least a few thousand more civil servants would be needed for this. the guards would also get involved in tracking down deserters. There would be court cases. Add in extra court service costs.

Proposing conscription as a solution to anything is just as useful as proposing a return to the High kings.

Mance Rayder

In Ukraine they conscript teenagers and require them to take part in army training, patrol and protecting the peace. They dont get sent to war, its just a discipline and character building exercise. Sounds bad huh?

Well In all my trips to Yalta I have never seen anyone approxomating a scanger, I did see teens patrolling with police to keep the peace. they simply marched around after the cops, but It makes you feel very safe. Better to see them in uniform then to see them in tracksuits and hoodies causing mayhem.

I felt much much safer in Ukraine then I do in Dublin. So yes to conscription but not to direct military involvement.

laoch na mona

wouldn't hurt to have the entire population trained just in case

Peetrik

Fantastic idea, a netural country increasing military spending in the middle of a financial crisis.

Its ideas like this that are keeping us from being the space paddy bog people we were destined to be.

laoch na mona

everyone i s so down on scumbags
thats why there "scumbags" people expect hem to be

Mance Rayder

Peetrik wrote: »

Fantastic idea, a netural country increasing military spending in the middle of a financial crisis.

Its ideas like this that are keeping us from being the space paddy bog people we were destined to be.

Yeah we should never invest in our youth. It's not like we have a huge problem wih teenage antisocial behaviour or anything.:rolleyes:

It doesn't have to cost the world to have a glorified boyscouts that keeps teens on the straight and narrow through those critical years. No ones suggesting to buy them all a fighter jet each.

davetherave

laoch na mona wrote: »

everyone i s so down on scumbags
thats why there "scumbags" people expect hem to be

Maybe they just want a hug, and the fact that everybody is calling them scumbags and crossing the road when they see them approaching is just getting them down?

St.Spodo

Indiscriminately throwing young people into the army doesn't solve social problems. If it did, everyone would be doing it.

al28283

CiscoStudent wrote: »

In Ukraine they conscript teenagers and require them to take part in army training, patrol and protecting the peace. They dont get sent to war, its just a discipline and character building exercise. Sounds bad huh?

Well In all my trips to Yalta I have never seen anyone approxomating a scanger, I did see teens patrolling with police to keep the peace. they simply marched around after the cops, but It makes you feel very safe. Better to see them in uniform then to see them in tracksuits and hoodies causing mayhem.

I felt much much safer in Ukraine then I do in Dublin. So yes to conscription but not to direct military involvement.

Ukraine has a failry high murder rate, particularly by youths. I don't think they're a very good example of conscription working.

SafeSurfer

CiscoStudent wrote: »

In Ukraine they conscript teenagers and require them to take part in army training, patrol and protecting the peace. They dont get sent to war, its just a discipline and character building exercise. Sounds bad huh?

Well In all my trips to Yalta I have never seen anyone approxomating a scanger, I did see teens patrolling with police to keep the peace. they simply marched around after the cops, but It makes you feel very safe. Better to see them in uniform then to see them in tracksuits and hoodies causing mayhem.

I felt much much safer in Ukraine then I do in Dublin. So yes to conscription but not to direct military involvement.

Ukraine are abolishing conscription.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service

K-9

Seeing as the EU is against it, we should say Yes.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

CiscoStudent wrote: »

In Ukraine they conscript teenagers and require them to take part in army training, patrol and protecting the peace. They dont get sent to war, its just a discipline and character building exercise. Sounds bad huh?

Well In all my trips to Yalta I have never seen anyone approxomating a scanger, I did see teens patrolling with police to keep the peace. they simply marched around after the cops, but It makes you feel very safe. Better to see them in uniform then to see them in tracksuits and hoodies causing mayhem.

I felt much much safer in Ukraine then I do in Dublin. So yes to conscription but not to direct military involvement.

Exactly what does "character building" mean?

kieranfitz

LordSmeg wrote: »

I dunno, the army from what I hear is just as full of scum as anywhere else. A lot of dodgy fcukers were drafted into it in times gone by.

The few I do know who are in the army dont exactly paint it in a good light and themselves wouldnt be model citizens. I've heard stories of all sorts about peace keeping missions too.

I'm not sure how much it would change anyone's attitude.

Drafted? Erm, we've never run a "draft" as the yanks would call it.

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, if you're hellbent on subscribing young people to do something with the aim of making them more socially aware and responsible, I would suggest any kind of social service.
Helping in retirement homes, working with the homeless, the kind of things the state never has enough money for but that would be needed.

Our government Ze Germans provide the social service as an option i believe.

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

This is the Irish Army though. I'm pretty sure the majority of troops we have now have never fired a shot in anger. It's pretty much designed for conscientious objectors and pacifists!!

I think your confusing the troops with the politicians that tell them what to do.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

I had a look at this thread before I went out for a walk with the dog and, as it happened, met another dog owner I know who is a colonel in the Finnish Defence Forces. Here, every physically able male has to serve six, nine or twelve months in the military or else do alternative non-armed civilian service. I asked him what he thought of the military as a means of socialising young people and he replied (saying something that I knew already) that the purpose of military training is to prepare people to defend their country if necessary, not to socialise them. Socialisation is a task for the home, schools and society in general, and if society can't take care of that, then the country wouldn't be worth defending anyway.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Not bad for an officer.

Peetrik wrote: »

Fantastic idea, a netural country increasing military spending in the middle of a financial crisis.

Its ideas like this that are keeping us from being the space paddy bog people we were destined to be.

AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH:mad: WE ARE NOT FCUKING NEUTRAL.

Personally i believe that conscription only serves to lower the overall standards in any military. Even if it was introduced it would require a massive lowering of recruiting standards, thousands of people have been rejected for colour blindness, having had laser eye surgery, in some cases childhood asthma (that can come down to the individual medical officer).