conscription in ireland?

Shenshen

al28283 wrote: »

Ukraine has a failry high murder rate, particularly by youths. I don't think they're a very good example of conscription working.

Not only that, it's also got a massive problem with mafia-style organised crime. The result of teaching teenagers how to organise violence to maximum effect? Surely not?

Peetrik

CiscoStudent wrote: »

Yeah we should never invest in our youth.

Yeah because spending on training young people to kill is an "investment" that we will see a financial return on. (rolleyes-icon omg lol etc etc whatever kids are doing nowadays)

deisedave

fianna saor wrote: »

would it be that bad an idea for mandatory army/navy etc service for a period in ireland? it seems that the younger generation have a lack of discipline and a poor attitude to a large extent. surely a term in the forces would go some way to rectifying that not to mention the overall benefit towards health and fitness etc. i know there is an argument that we dont need a lot of personnel in the forces but we could increase the likes of the peace keeping missions and a larger naval service could possibly be used to patrol more of our waters to reduce some of the illegal drug shipments that enter our country not to mention border control.

I would join the forces now at twenty two no bother but its very hard to get into at the moment. So begs the question if we cant take in people who want to go how the fudge are we going to afford to take in that many people.

Either way no I dont think people should be forced but the way the country is at the moment I think you would get enough numbers without forcing people.

WhatNowForUs?

After 13 years of schooling I donte think respect and self discipline will come from 1 years of conscription .

Jester252

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Reaction by those convicted will be the same.

ASBOs do nothing. Having them do a year in the army will provide them with training and during the year they will be helping with the everyday running of the country.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jester252 wrote: »

ASBOs do nothing. Having them do a year in the army will provide them with training and during the year they will be helping with the everyday running of the country.

The problem is, like ASBOs, either the culprit is willing or the are not. If they are not, the whole scheme is a waste of time. You can take the horse to water, as they say...

Shenshen

Jester252 wrote: »

ASBOs do nothing. Having them do a year in the army will provide them with training and during the year they will be helping with the everyday running of the country.

Why would you assume a year of getting trained on the most effective way of handing out violence with the least amount of risk to oneself is going to turn a person with an antisocial personality into a socially responsible person?
I seriously wonder where this idea is coming from?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Shenshen wrote: »

Why would you assume a year of getting trained on the most effective way of handing out violence with the least amount of risk to oneself is going to turn a person with an antisocial personality into a socially responsible person?
I seriously wonder where this idea is coming from?

In fairness, not all forms of military service automatically mean combat. There are others, such as catering, transport, communications could be offered.

The problem is, as I said, if a criminal teenager does not want to be a part of this it won't work. It requires forced co-operation which is counterproductive, especially when neither side really wants the unwilling party to be there.

Shenshen

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In fairness, not all forms of military service automatically mean combat. There are others, such as catering, transport, communications could be offered.

The problem is, as I said, if a criminal teenager does not want to be a part of this it won't work. It requires forced co-operation which is counterproductive, especially when neither side really wants the unwilling party to be there.

I don't know about Ireland, but in most militaries, even the non-combat occupations require a basic armed training to be completed before people can move on to them.
Also, depending on the length of subscription, these occupnations may noteven become available.

Militaries do not as a general rule teach social behaviour. By nature they teach submission to ambiguous authority. Which isn't a great lesson to be taking back into society.

paddyandy

We have a Flag waving/Tavern/football/contests/parades type of patriotic fervour that needs evaluation . Civic pride in our Institutions is greatly lacking and duties seem only to belong to Authorities .Everyone else has rights but no duties .We're a media driven nation also .Conscription was abolished in Britain and many regretted it .

dlofnep

Nobody should be forced to join their military. The military doesn't always change people for the better.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

paddyandy wrote: »

**** freedom.

FYP.

Jester252

I just feel a kid will learn more from cleaning up after himself then a slap on the wrists

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jester252 wrote: »

I just feel a kid will learn more from cleaning up after himself then a slap on the wrists

Which, as is the problem with most of the arguments above, assumes a solution whereas the reality will more than likley be very different.

This thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent - we were talking about consrciption (which means everybody), now we're talking about it as a judicial sentencing tool, solely for convicted teenagers.

Jester252

Well I won't might if I had to put in time for the country. Everybody whats the freedom and the rights that the country gives you but very few people are willing to give time to protect these freedoms. The Irish army is only involved in overseas UN peacekeeping missions. Most of the work that they do is to ensure the safety of the Irish people in Ireland.

FloatingVoter

First of all, no professional army wants the dregs of a society - that went out with press-ganging.
Second of all, most people in favour of conscription tend to be well above the age range it would affect.

Pushtrak

Jester252 wrote: »

WEverybody whats the freedom and the rights that the country gives you but very few people are willing to give time to protect these freedoms.

What freedoms are being protected by military service? It seems to be, freedoms are given or taken by the politicians and there is no militaristic application to or from "freedoms".

Any peacekeeping intervention has nothing to do with the freedoms of this country. They are great actions to be undertaken, don't get me wrong. But lets treat their value for what they are, and not for what they aren't.

The Irish army is only involved in overseas UN peacekeeping missions. Most of the work that they do is to ensure the safety of the Irish people in Ireland.

How so? Peacekeeping missions are great things, and I have a lot of respect for those who go on them. The above claim, though will need substantiation.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jester252 wrote: »

Well I won't might if I had to put in time for the country. Everybody whats the freedom and the rights that the country gives you but very few people are willing to give time to protect these freedoms. The Irish army is only involved in overseas UN peacekeeping missions. Most of the work that they do is to ensure the safety of the Irish people in Ireland.

The army does nothing to protect the country. Were you aseleep durign the bankign crisis? (Not saying that the army should have gotten involved, but it was a useless tool in such an effect)

If this country is ever threatened by an invasion and the army are required, I assure you, there will be nothing left to proctect when it is over. Army or no army.

MaxSteele

davetherave wrote: »

Why don't you join up then, instead of badmouthing those who are serving?

I'm in college doing something else. Maybe i will some day though.

Not for a minute am I badmouthing anyone serving, I know of a couple and most of those in the defence forces are just normal, respectful blokes ... I'm on about wasters and dickheads I know personally, who are joining and just don't belong in something as disciplined as the military. They seem to be doing it because they expect to be payed by sitting around the Curragh all week.

I just don't think the army should be turned into a rehab for useless anti social *****, like the OP wants.

juan.kerr

Imagine the deafness claims that would arise from conscription. It would bankrupt the country...hang on...

Nodin

Jester252 wrote: »

ASBOs do nothing. Having them do a year in the army will provide them with training and during the year they will be helping with the everyday running of the country.

Where does the money come from to run an army bulked up with those conscripted?

What will they be "helping" with in regards to the running of the country?

Jester252

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The army does nothing to protect the country. Were you aseleep durign the bankign crisis? (Not saying that the army should have gotten involved, but it was a useless tool in such an effect)

If this country is ever threatened by an invasion and the army are required, I assure you, there will be nothing left to proctect when it is over. Army or no army.

Hold up
The defense forces do a lot of work to protect Ireland.
The Army assist guards and are called in time of emergence to aid people (The floods, Snow any time the weather is not normal)
The Naval Service protects Ireland water from any thing to illegal fishing to drugs smuggling.
The Air Corp assist the army,naval service, coastguard, Air ambulance.
Without them Ireland would fail.
The Defense forces are there to protect the people not deal with white collar crime :rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jester252 wrote: »

Hold up
The defense forces do a lot of work to protect Ireland.
The Army assist guards and are called in time of emergence to aid people (The floods, Snow any time the weather is not normal)
The Naval Service protects Ireland water from any thing to illegal fishing to drugs smuggling.
The Air Corp assist the army,naval service, coastguard, Air ambulance.
Without them Ireland would fail.
The Defense forces are there to protect the people not deal with white collar crime :rolleyes:

Now here you've changed your stance: the initial post I replied to was "protecting freedoms". None of the things you list above threatened freedom.
The biggest threat we had to freedom came from within and the army, as I pointed out myself, so the rolleyeyes goes striaght back at you, is not desigined to deal with.

Secondly, if I'm in a situation above, I'd want a motivated army to help me, not someone who was forced to be there aganist his will.

Jester252

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Now here you've changed your stance: the initial post I replied to was "protecting freedoms". None of the things you list above threatened freedom.
The biggest threat we had to freedom came from within and the army, as I pointed out myself, so the rolleyeyes goes striaght back at you, is not desigined to deal with.

Secondly, if I'm in a situation above, I'd want a motivated army to help me, not someone who was forced to be there aganist his will.

I never said the army was involved in protecting freedoms. I was referring to the fact that everybody whats the rights but few what the responsibly. The army is one way of taking on some of the responsibly. What I said in my post was the the Irish defense forces are their to protect Irish people. I take back my rolleye it was kinda of a dick move and I do agree that I would prefer some who what to be there but I do think more people should give up some time to help the country

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jester252 wrote: »

I never said the army was involved in protecting freedoms. I was referring to the fact that everybody whats the rights but few what the responsibly. The army is one way of taking on some of the responsibly. What I said in my post was the the Irish defense forces are their to protect Irish people. I take back my rolleye it was kinda of a dick move and I do agree that I would prefer some who what to be there but I do think more people should give up some time to help the country

I've re-read it and it still implies the same thing: proftecting freedoms. The second one is more protecting people.

No worries about the rolleyeyes . I don't beleive a coutnry has any right to expect soemthing fron its people based purely on nationality, that is more a humanity thing. Individuals have rights and freedoms, not countries. And the biggest threat to these freedosm comes usually comes from inside the coutnries themselves.

Anyone, who ever tells you that they are fighting for soem sort of political freedom is talking ****e. What they are fightign for is control, which is the exact opposite of freedom.

Obviously, if someone is in danger, I'm going to help, but because I want to, not because I'm forced to.

Nodin

Jester252 wrote: »

I never said the army was involved in protecting freedoms. I was referring to the fact that everybody whats the rights but few what the responsibly. The army is one way of taking on some of the responsibly. What I said in my post was the the Irish defense forces are their to protect Irish people. I take back my rolleye it was kinda of a dick move and I do agree that I would prefer some who what to be there but I do think more people should give up some time to help the country

If you'd be as good.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79115775&postcount=122

Pushtrak

Jester252 wrote: »

I never said the army was involved in protecting freedoms. I was referring to the fact that everybody whats the rights but few what the responsibly.

I'm still not seeing what responsibility a person is taking by being conscripted. It just doesn't follow. Exactly what rights are you concerned about? Exactly what responsibilities would you like to see taken more seriously? And how do these interrelate? I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

but I do think more people should give up some time to help the country

Help what country? Ours? How? Again, try walk us through the thought process here.

charlemont

LordSmeg wrote: »

I dunno, the army from what I hear is just as full of scum as anywhere else. A lot of dodgy fcukers were drafted into it in times gone by.

The few I do know who are in the army dont exactly paint it in a good light and themselves wouldnt be model citizens. I've heard stories of all sorts about peace keeping missions too.

I'm not sure how much it would change anyone's attitude.

Rubbish, Some good decent people are in the Army. Same as any profession really.

thepieman12345

A lot of people don't seem to understand that in many places where they have conscription they don't actually send them off to do peace keeping or fighting that would be left to professional soldiers who are there of their own free will as a job, an example would be Finland where people reaching the age of 18 are trained in the military for 6-18 months or doing a longer stint of community service instead, and then they go back to being civilians, they don't see active duty, its only so if something like ww2 happened again they would not have to waste time training people, they would be very quickly able to mobilise.

mikemac1

The best Prime Minister ever explains the advantages

You may very well think that but I couldn't possibly comment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFZ-yaFHMx8

UserName 217

This Thread, Really?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

mikemac1 wrote: »

The best Prime Minister ever explains the advantages

You may very well think that but I couldn't possibly comment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFZ-yaFHMx8

That is the enitre thread in a nutshell.

The problem he addresses doesn't exist, and the solution he proposes won't fix it.

CajunPenguin

Sigh.
The "younger generation" as you so intelligently call them have no problem. They were always misbehaving. They have ALWAYS been lacking discipline and a good attitude. If you introduce conscription, you'll have what the Americans have, an army of eejits with all D's in the Leaving who don't know why they're in Chad and consistently manage to shoot their mates in the legs.Do you honestly believe your parents and grand parents didn't think the same of you?

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers".

- Socrates (470 – 399 BC)

FloatingVoter

Now I think of it "Introduce Conscription" is the ultimate troll closely followed by "the world has gone to **** since the Catholic church lost its power".

Don't feed the troll. Finite.

Jester252

Nodin wrote: »

If you'd be as good.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79115775&postcount=122

Check the post below yours. If I could figure out the money issue I won't be posting on boards

Pushtrak wrote:

Help what country? Ours? How? Again, try walk us through the thought process here.

It would be Ireland. As Above

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I've re-read it and it still implies the same thing: proftecting freedoms. The second one is more protecting people.

No worries about the rolleyeyes . I don't beleive a coutnry has any right to expect soemthing fron its people based purely on nationality, that is more a humanity thing. Individuals have rights and freedoms, not countries. And the biggest threat to these freedosm comes usually comes from inside the coutnries themselves.

Anyone, who ever tells you that they are fighting for soem sort of political freedom is talking ****e. What they are fightign for is control, which is the exact opposite of freedom.

Obviously, if someone is in danger, I'm going to help, but because I want to, not because I'm forced to.

I more or less phrased what I was trying to earlier on wrong. You right its a person that has the right but I feel in the currently in Ireland especially among young people they have no respect for their rights. They don't understand the cost. Currently a lot of us young Irish assume that we have a right to free education but if you are around a college a good few student don't respect what they have been given by the state. Now as a poster said conscription is not always services to the army. Now people can do the proper army route but you don't have the time you can do your service at a local level like cleaning the streets or looking after the local park. IMO I just think that people should give back something to country that they live in.

Pushtrak wrote: »

I'm still not seeing what responsibility a person is taking by being conscripted. It just doesn't follow. Exactly what rights are you concerned about? Exactly what responsibilities would you like to see taken more seriously? And how do these interrelate? I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Most of the young people in Ireland are beaning funded by the state (by third level or the dole). We are lucky to live in a country where we have the right to an education. We as a people have a responsibly to look after the country that we live, that has given you a lot, but a lot of people don't. I think

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jester252 wrote: »

I more or less phrased what I was trying to earlier on wrong. You right its a person that has the right but I feel in the currently in Ireland especially among young people they have no respect for their rights. They don't understand the cost. Currently a lot of us young Irish assume that we have a right to free education but if you are around a college a good few student don't respect what they have been given by the state. Now as a poster said conscription is not always services to the army. Now people can do the proper army route but you don't have the time you can do your service at a local level like cleaning the streets or looking after the local park. IMO I just think that people should give back something to country that they live in.

Not everyone is (or should automatically be) indebted to the palce they grow up simply for the chance to grow up.

As I poitned out in a different thread, people here don't receive an education, they do a two year entrance exam to college. Most of the people who should be greatful for this "education" usually finish it out of nessecity, not out of desire and most regard the majority of what the learnt pointless. Not exactly the sort of thing one tends to feel indebted for, and not the sort of thing that inbibes patriotism.


Also, "education" is not free - it's paid for by taxpayers, i.e. the childrens' parents.

The country does not provide human rights. They are inferred at birth. The country may be said to protect these righs (or, in some cases, should) but many people actually grow up without these rights. 22% of children in 2001 were found to be living in poverty - and you want them to be greatful to the state for insuring this scenario??!

Nationalism is not a given. Not everyone has a deep empathy for the country they grew up in, nor should they. And not everyone should be emotionally blackmailed into feeling some sort of gratitude for said alledged protection.

Most of the young people in Ireland are beaning funded by the state (by third level or the dole). We are lucky to live in a country where we have the right to an education. We as a people have a responsibly to look after the country that we live, that has given you a lot, but a lot of people don't. I think

Bull****.

Like the youtube post above, some people like to believe that the youth are a certain way in order to make the idea seem more palatable.

Nodin

Jester252 wrote: »

Check the post below yours. If I could figure out the money issue I won't be posting on boards

...............

So you haven't a bogs notion then.