Bodybuilding - diet from scratch with a complication

funkey_monkey

Hi,

I'm in need of help sorting out my diet. I'm getting back to weigth training after a period of approx 4 months off due to work and injury.

Anyhow, following on from my thread in fitness (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056652754) I now need to sort my diet out and I am totally lost.

I've worked out that I need approx 2,800 kCal per day. I intend to split this into 50% carbs, 20% protein and 30% fats. My current diet was 10% Fat, 70% Carbs & 20% Protein - totally approx 2,400 calories.

The complication is that I have a condition called PKU when inhibits the amount of natural protein that I can take. However, I take supplements which provide me with whatever I'm missing.

I can modify my diet to get approx 165g of protein per day - 30g natural protein and 130g through my supplements from my doctor.

I need help now in organising the remainder of my diet. due to my condition it is naturally a high carb diet. I'm unsure of what fats to add and how.

Is adding good fats to my diet just a matter of takign Omega 3-6-9 supplements, 0.5 avocado per day and cooking using corn oil or olive oil? (I can't take nuts due to high protein content).

Can someone please help with this as I'm getting totally lost and confused. It is also affecting my training as it feels as if I'm wasting time until I get resolved.


Thanks.

alexsmith

why cant you eat more protein? and nuts dont contain that much protein pal,relax.what condition do you have? getting only 30grams of protein from food and the rest from supplements is stupid. your macros should be like this if you want to gain size

225g carbs = 1000cals
225protein = 1000 cals
90g fats = 810 cals.

easy.

funkey_monkey

alexsmith wrote: »

why cant you eat more protein? and nuts dont contain that much protein pal,relax.what condition do you have? getting only 30grams of protein from food and the rest from supplements is stupid. your macros should be like this if you want to gain size

225g carbs = 1000cals
225protein = 1000 cals
90g fats = 810 cals.

easy.

Hi Alex, in my linked thread I explain that I have a medical condition whereby I can only eat a certain amount of protein per day. This limits me to 30g per day natural protein and I make that up to 140g with supplements from my doctor.

UnknownSpecies

alexsmith wrote: »

why cant you eat more protein? and nuts dont contain that much protein pal,relax.what condition do you have? getting only 30grams of protein from food and the rest from supplements is stupid. your macros should be like this if you want to gain size

225g carbs = 1000cals
225protein = 1000 cals
90g fats = 810 cals.

easy.

Don't be so hostile, he explained everything in the first post. The nuts would provide you with more fats than protein though. Here's a tool you can use to calculate the grams from the % breakdown of carbs/protein/fats. Just put in 2800 for your calories.

funkey_monkey

dorgasm wrote: »

Don't be so hostile, he explained everything in the first post. The nuts would provide you with more fats than protein though. Here's a tool you can use to calculate the grams from the % breakdown of carbs/protein/fats. Just put in 2800 for your calories.

Hi dorgasm - can you please post up that tool - it's missing from this post.


Ta.

UnknownSpecies

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Hi dorgasm - can you please post up that tool - it's missing from this post.


Ta.

Sorry, must have forgot to paste it

http://www.freedieting.com/tools/nutrient_calculator.htm

funkey_monkey

Well, here I'm back again with an update. I'm not sure where it's going wrong but I can't get enough fats into my diet.

Here is my current weight gain since starting training. As you can see it is mostly noise rather than gains.
.


My diet is as follows:






As you can see my fat intake is too low and I'm approx 200 calories short of where I should be. I am planning to start eating an avocado which should add 270KCal, 25g of Fat, 3.5g of protein and 15g of carbs to my diet.

However, I can't eat this every day. What other options do I have? I am also looking into brining coconuts into my food - probably in the form of coconut based curries etc.

Any pointers would be greatly appreciated as I am struggling to put on lean mass.


Thanks.

RyanTubs

Are the protein supplements you take powder? If so add coconut oil/milk to your shakes. Avocados are very good. 3 or 4 tablespoons of olive oil over your lunch or dinner works too, should be around 5g fat per tblsp. Supplement with Omega 3 fish oils too!

funkey_monkey

Good suggestion in regards to the coconut milk in the supplements! I never thought of that.

colman1212

Not sure what height you are at 65 kilos I wouldn't be getting into the exacts of it. Eat loads and loads of good food.
Drink lots of milk. You just need a lot of calories. Milk is an awesome and easy way of putting on weight and muscle. 3-4 litres a day. You will put on fat too but worry about that later.
From experience I would say starting strength and drink milk. It did me and quite a few people I know a lot of good.

funkey_monkey

colman1212 wrote: »

Not sure what height you are at 65 kilos I wouldn't be getting into the exacts of it. Eat loads and loads of good food.

5'6 to mix imperial and metric!

Drink lots of milk. You just need a lot of calories. Milk is an awesome and easy way of putting on weight and muscle. 3-4 litres a day. You will put on fat too but worry about that later.
From experience I would say starting strength and drink milk. It did me and quite a few people I know a lot of good.

Daily milk is out for me, but I might try coconut milk.

colman1212

Sorry mate, stupid reply on my behalf. I just read about PKU. Wow I have never heard of a condition like that. So do your doctors give you a special type of protein supplment? Like I assume its not whey protein...

funkey_monkey

It is the Lophlex and Phlexy-10 listed in my diet sheet above.

The Lophlex is an amino acid mix (minus phe) with added vitamins and minerals. Phlexy-10 is an additional drink mix similar to Lophlex with a smaller quantity of amino acids (again no phe) and no vitamins nor minerals either.

funkey_monkey

It's now the 12 Aug and my weight is 67kg on the dot. Is this sufficient progress as I'm getting frustrated by the lack of movement.

It seems like a bit of a sticking point that I've previously not gone beyond without gain being mostly fat!

funkey_monkey

funkey_monkey wrote: »

It's now the 12 Aug and my weight is 67kg on the dot. Is this sufficient progress as I'm getting frustrated by the lack of movement.

It seems like a bit of a sticking point that I've previously not gone beyond without gain being mostly fat!

It can be frustrating, the body is a temperamental bastard when it wants to be.

Have you figured out exactly the calorie surplus you've managed over the past few weeks?

I'd be aiming for a solid 500/800 kcal daily surplus to slowly and steadily put on weight. However, this would only amount to about 0.5 - 0.66 of a kg of bodyweight per week.

The macros are all important, correct, but if you're not getting enough calories, you wont put on weight. It's important that your portion sizing matches the "serving" suggestion on the site you are using. Are you weighing things regularly in order to ensure that your portion sizing is correct?

funkey_monkey

Just got off the scales at my local pharmacist. They have one of those machines that measure your weight, height, & bf%. I've just got a bit of a shock:

Weight: 67.5kg (Note: I was wearing suit trousers, t-shirt, socks - no shoes)
Height: 167cm (No shoes)
BF: 20.4%
BMI: 24.2kg/m^2

My normal weight range (I presume based on height) is: 51.6kg - 69.4kg
My normal BF range is: 17% - 23%
My normal BMI range is: 18.5 - 24.9

Now I don't know how accurate the BF% is - the printout does say 'Body Fat Estimation' but I am gutted that it so high. Not sure why, but I was expecting something in the 13% - 17% region. I should get it measured using the calipers (which I have) but I've no-one to do this for me.

I think I might need to get a PT as I'm not putting on muscle, nor are my weights increasing. I'm just wasting time and energy

Gutted.

quick thought. Are you controlling for expended calories?

You should be aiming for a 500/800 net surplus per day.

If you're doing weights etc you'll need to eat even more (over your Maintenance level).

funkey_monkey

Deleted User wrote: »

quick thought. Are you controlling for expended calories?

You should be aiming for a 500/800 net surplus per day.

If you're doing weights etc you'll need to eat even more (over your Maintenance level).

I believe I was, but I'm going to have to re-check as now I'm unsure about both my diet and training regime.

Ant11

http://www.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/

Use this to workout your maintenance including training.

funkey_monkey

Thanks. I've gone onto that website and drawn up the following. Does this look reasonable?

[URL="http://www.flickr.com/photos/78722628@N03/7945693444/]"][/url]



[URL="http://www.flickr.com/photos/78722628@N03/7945693026/]"][/url]


Concerns are that I've customised the macro sheet myself and set the weight change as fat down to 10%.

Next step routine once I get the thumbs up for this.

Thanks.

Ant11

I think you might find it hard to eat that amount of carbs.

funkey_monkey

Not sure about that, I'm on a low protein diet (PKU) so my diet will be naturally high in carbs and low in protein. My protein will come from supplements.

Ant11

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Not sure about that, I'm on a low protein diet (PKU) so my diet will be naturally high in carbs and low in protein. My protein will come from supplements.

Yeah I've read your posts about PKU. My only advise would be to try it for a week or 2 and see how you get on. Only you will know how your body reacts to eating like that. If its too difficult to eat that high of carbs I would increase fat and lower carbs. Good fat is a lot easier to take in than carbs.

I couldn't read the second chart clearly(on my phone) but you mentioned you customize it to bring your bf down to 10% or am I reading it wrong?

funkey_monkey

Ant11 wrote: »

I couldn't read the second chart clearly(on my phone) but you mentioned you customize it to bring your bf down to 10% or am I reading it wrong?

Erm, no I have understood that to mean that only 10% of the 2kg I am aiming to put on will be fat. This will (according to the sheet) alter my BF from 20.4% to 20.1%.

Also, I intend to undertake 5 routines in a 5 day period with 2 of those being in one day (cardio first thing in morning and weights in evening) in order for a four day gym attendance. Is this acceptable?

Ant11

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Ant11 wrote: »

I couldn't read the second chart clearly(on my phone) but you mentioned you customize it to bring your bf down to 10% or am I reading it wrong?

Erm, no I have understood that to mean that only 10% of the 2kg I am aiming to put on will be fat. This will (according to the sheet) alter my BF from 20.4% to 20.1%.

Yeah that makes sense.



Also, I intend to undertake 5 routines in a 5 day period with 2 of those being in one day (cardio first thing in morning and weights in evening) in order for a four day gym attendance. Is this acceptable?

It's acceptable if that's what you want to do and you have the time and energy to do it. I personally wouldn't want to go the gym twice a day. When I go the gym i work hard, do compound lifts and rest the next day but that's me.

You should gain the 2kg you want if you consistently stick to your caloric surplus, combined with a good weights program with compound lifts you should also gain a good bit of muscle. You need to be consistent though.

polymath

Get yourself a PT. Not gaining any muscle even through following a strict diet you made by yourself clearly means you are doing something wrong.

funkey_monkey

Update:
Weight: 66.0kg (Not sure why this went down. I've plateaued around here for ages now)
Height: 167cm (No shoes)
BF: 19.2.4%
BMI: 23.7kg/m^2

A bit disappointing TBH. I wasn't expecting a massive change, but I consider this to be just noise. I'm on my 3rd week of the GVT routine. The fact that my weight has decresed would be an indicator that its not working, correct? If I was gaining muscle my weight would increase rather than decrease? I don't feel particularly more lean in the previous 3 weeks.

funkey_monkey

polymath wrote: »

Get yourself a PT. Not gaining any muscle even through following a strict diet you made by yourself clearly means you are doing something wrong.

This may be the next step, but cost is massive. I just can't see where I'm going wrong, unless it is intensity at the gym. I wonder if my numbers are too low?

funkey_monkey

Spoke to my dietitian today. She is concerned that I'm taking too much protein - currently getting ~ 160g. she wants me to cut this down to 100g.

She agrees that a 50% carbs, 25% fats & 25% protein would be a good starting point, but that I need to lower my protein and see where I end up. This will have a detrimental effect on the ratios:(

Ant11

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Spoke to my dietitian today. She is concerned that I'm taking too much protein - currently getting ~ 160g. she wants me to cut this down to 100g.

She agrees that a 50% carbs, 25% fats & 25% protein would be a good starting point, but that I need to lower my protein and see where I end up. This will have a detrimental effect on the ratios:(

You should still be able to gain weight if your consistently in a caloric surplus. Have you kept a food diary and can honestly say you've been in a surplus?

I think a PT is the way to go for you. get someone who can advise you properly on a bulking diet and program.

funkey_monkey

I have tried this before. They are happy to work on routine but won't help me with diet for love nor money as I think they are scared of advising me in this area.

Doing GVT (10x10) at the minute. So what are these figures like:
Day 1:
Bench: 52.5kg
Mil Press: 27.5kg
Skullcrusher: 17.5kg (exc. ez bar weight)

Day 2:
Row: 57.5kg
BB Curl: 30kg (5kg plates on oly bar)
Abs curl

Day 3:
Squat: 75kg
Good Morning: 50kg
Calf Raises: 115kg

I'm currently 5'6 (1.67m) and weigh 145lbs (66kg). Am I close to where I should be?

Mellor

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Spoke to my dietitian today. She is concerned that I'm taking too much protein - currently getting ~ 160g. she wants me to cut this down to 100g.

She agrees that a 50% carbs, 25% fats & 25% protein would be a good starting point, but that I need to lower my protein and see where I end up. This will have a detrimental effect on the ratios:(

What was her reason for saying 160g is too much. What's her qualification. (I'm asking because I can never remember if "dietition" is a regulated title or not)

The above is a comete contradiction, how can she agree with 50/25/25 yet advise on 100g only of protein, whichs equates to 1600 calories total. Which is a big deficit.
Has she any experience with weight/muscle gain diets? Client examples on her website etc

funkey_monkey

Mellor wrote: »

What was her reason for saying 160g is too much. What's her qualification. (I'm asking because I can never remember if "dietition" is a regulated title or not)

The above is a comete contradiction, how can she agree with 50/25/25 yet advise on 100g only of protein, whichs equates to 1600 calories total. Which is a big deficit.
Has she any experience with weight/muscle gain diets? Client examples on her website etc

Sorry, I might have misquoted here. She initially agreed with the 50-25-25 split. But when she checked my protein intake for the calories I was consuming it was too much.

She said that I needed to bring down my protein intake (natural & synthetic) to 100g as my phe blood levels where slightly high at 850-900μmol/L whereas it should be around 700μmol/L (normal person ~120μmol/L).

As you state this will have a knockon effect on my ratios. TBH, I'm not sure where I stand at the moment. She had calculated a need of 2,500kCal per day for me (and that was giving an activity level of 1.6 which is said was reasonably high). This averages out to something similar to the 3,000kCal on training days and 2,100 on non-training days which I've been trying for currently.

She did seem to indicate that my carbs consumption would have to increase - so I guess the ratio will be swinging in favour of carbs again, which was something I was trying to avoid.

She is a senior dietition at the hospital I attend.

This is the frustration I have. I feel like I'm being pulled in two directions - weightlifting convention says one thing, my dietition pulls me in another direction. Then there is routin issues on top of that.

I think I'll continue to press her for some more detail when she sends out the report - it was just a consultation we had and she said she was going to look into it a bit more.

g'em

Mellor wrote: »

What was her reason for saying 160g is too much. What's her qualification. (I'm asking because I can never remember if "dietition" is a regulated title or not)

In Ireland - iirc - it is, in that a degree in dietetics is needed (am open ot correction on this). My only reservation about going to much against the grain on the advice on what the dietician says is that if she's based in the hospital where treatment is sought then any practice that contravene's the advice given might have implications on further treatment?

PKU is a fairly serious but manageable condition - funkey_monkey will know a lo tmore about it than I do, but if the body can't process an important amino acid then increasing intake could lead to health problems. You're really caught in a catch 22 here funkey_monkey, I feel for you.

funkey_monkey

g'em wrote: »

In Ireland - iirc - it is, in that a degree in dietetics is needed (am open ot correction on this). My only reservation about going to much against the grain on the advice on what the dietician says is that if she's based in the hospital where treatment is sought then any practice that contravene's the advice given might have implications on further treatment?

PKU is a fairly serious but manageable condition - funkey_monkey will know a lo tmore about it than I do, but if the body can't process an important amino acid then increasing intake could lead to health problems. You're really caught in a catch 22 here funkey_monkey, I feel for you.

Hi g'em, good to hear from you again

Hopefully, I can work with her in order to make some progress on the diet front. It is a lot tougher for me and sometimes I think that PT's use it as a reason for not meeting goals. However, dietition seems to think that 100g for me is sufficient and that muscle building can be accommodated in the diet.

Yeah, the condition is fairly serious, but only after prolonged diet mis-management. It can lead to nervous temours in hands, overly sharp reflexes, concentration issues, and ultimately affect brain function. Not nice.

g'em

You too

I have nothing but admiration for your determination, it's been a long road for you! Unfortunately we have to be careful here that advice doesn't contravene that given by medical professionals so if the dietician has told you to stick with 100g then unfortunately that's that. I'd be highly cynical about PT's even knowing what PKU is, nevermind how to manage it

Mellor

I remember your PKU issues from the previous threads. As Gem says you're in a bit of a catch 22 in regards diet advice verses medical advice.

I wasn't trying brush aside the medical advice or her qualifications. I just found the fast that she agree with 50/25/25 initially to be a little strange. Even without running numbers, I'd assume 25% protein would mean c.150g+ for a male adult.

Maybe she just meant it as "I'd agree with 50/25/25 BUT considering PKU, lets cap it at 100g"

funkey_monkey

Well I've got my reply for the dietitian and she is recommending that I take the following:
20g max natural protein
60g synthetic protein supplement (protein replacer for my diet with vit & minerals)

On training days, I am to take an amino acid combination eqiuvalent to 18g protein.

This means I am consuming 98g protein per training day and @66kg this equates to approx 1.5g protein per kg bodyweight.

I've been faffing around with the IF calculator. My TDEE is 2340kCal per day. How should I split the carbs and fats in order to maximise my potential?

Also, what should the percentage above/below the TDEE be for my training and rest days.

Note: for those concerned about giving advice, as long as the protein intake is as outlined above, then there is no issue.

I am reconsidering going to a PT. However, until I get my diet sorted then there is no point in doing this.

funkey_monkey

I was wishing that I didn't need to drag this up again. It is now Feb and I'm still sitting @65kg.

I've just checked my intake and yesterday I was eating 2,550kCal @ 23% Fat (65g), 53& Carbs (340g) and 24% Protein (146g).

Yes, the protein intake is too high and I need to reduce it. I'm gutted as that was me eating fairly well. Not sure how I can pack in another 500kCal and not increase protein intake.

Spoke to a PT recently. He kept banging on about whey protein, porridge, and varying routines. I agree with the varying routines bit, but like every other PT, they just don't seem to understand when I say I can't take any more than xg of protein.

funkey_monkey

I'm trying to increase my protein intake on a PKU diet. My current supplements (which I get on prescription) are as follows:

Phlexy 10 (4-6 sachets daily)
http://nutricia.co.uk/files/uploads/documents/PHLEXY_10_DRINK_MIX.pdf

Lophlex: (3 sachets daily)
http://nutricia.co.uk/files/uploads/documents/PKU_LOPHEX_LQ.pdf

There is a product out there to purchase called GMP. This is a whey based product that has very little phe. Is there any point in me taking this or should I stick to the above? I appreciate that the ratios of the amino acids are different - and that is the reason I ask the question:

http://www.daviscofoods.com/specialty/glyco.html

j@utis

funkey_monkey wrote: »

I was wishing that I didn't need to drag this up again. It is now Feb and I'm still sitting @65kg.
I've just checked my intake and yesterday I was eating 2,550kCal @ 23% Fat (65g), 53& Carbs (340g) and 24% Protein (146g).
Yes, the protein intake is too high and I need to reduce it. I'm gutted as that was me eating fairly well. Not sure how I can pack in another 500kCal and not increase protein intake.

can you eat more fat? I eat that amount of fat/day and even more, and I'm a smallish woman and I don't go to the gym. 65g for a guy seems to be painfully low.

funkey_monkey

I'm trying Eating coconut flakes most days

j@utis

flakes are full of carbs and they're dry and choky. try coconut oil instead. and add butter to your veg, meat, everything. I sometimes eat it on it own. tasty stuff, I don't know anybody who wouldn't like butter.
your health, not your weight should be your priority. eating excessive amounts of carbs might lead to a disease, like diabetes etc...

Olive Oil on everything.
Butter on everything.
Coconut Oil on everything.

funkey_monkey

j@utis wrote: »

flakes are full of carbs and they're dry and choky.

The flakes I got were very low in carbs - high in fats. There is a sweetened more fleshy version which is very high in carbs, almost equivalent between carbs and fat.

try coconut oil instead. and add butter to your veg, meat, everything. I sometimes eat it on it own. tasty stuff, I don't know anybody who wouldn't like butter.

I'll give it another lash.


I've signed up for a 3 month course at my gym - training and nutrition based. First week so not sure what to expect.

Here are my initial measurements (in inches ):
Shoulders: 42.5
Chest: 36
Triceps: 11.8
Biceps: 12.2
Waist: 28.5
Hip: 34.5
Thigh: 19

Body fat: 14.4%
Height: 5'7
Weight 65.5kg (in metric to keep you thinking )

We'll see where I end up...

funkey_monkey

Still doing the course. It has been kettlbells and circuits so far mainly. I've been to tired to do any weights. I feel like I have atrophied (sp?) a lot as my weight has now gone down to 63.5kg. Trainer seemed happy and said it was excess water and fat. I'm not sure. My arms look visibly smaller and my strength is nowhere to be found

Starting into weights soon I hope as I'm going backwards here, although the training intensity is something new to me. I think I'm the only person on course looking to bulk up, everyone else seems to be wanting to go other way.

Mr. CooL ICE

FM, ive seen your posts regarding your training and PKU. From what little research I've done, it sounds like an affliction that would make a life of physical activity a chore for most. The fact you are so determined to defy the odds is something to be admired. Fair play and keep it up

funkey_monkey

There is no reason why I can't put on muscle. I am taking on 160g of protein per day (mostly synethetic). I think for most people esp someone of my size, it should be enough to kick start some muscle gains.

funkey_monkey

Absolutely zero energy now. I went to gym this evening and walked back out. Could do nothing only 1 set of 5 reps for bicep curls.

Getting scared that this is having detrimental effect on me. Using a body fat caliper my %BF seems to be around 12% now - although the first measurement was taking using a different device, so I can't compare, like for like. I don't really feel much difference - apart from noticeable shrinkage on chest and arms in regards to muscle mass.

With the lack of energy and seemingly muscle wastage I'm worried about how I will get back into shape.

I should point out that I have stopped taking Kre Alkalyn tablets for about 3 months now and also stopped my BCAA intake. Should I start back on these again?

Any advice appreciated as getting uber concerned about this, even though the trainer said there would be a dip for me prior to making gains

funkey_monkey

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Here are my initial measurements (in inches ):
Shoulders: 42.5
Chest: 36
Triceps: 11.8
Biceps: 12.2
Waist: 28.5
Hip: 34.5
Thigh: 19

Body fat: 14.4%
Height: 5'7
Weight 65.5kg (in metric to keep you thinking )

We'll see where I end up...

6 weeks in:

Shoulders: 40.5 (-2)
Chest: 35.5 (-0.5)
Triceps: 11.5 (-0.3)
Biceps: 11.5 (-0.7)
Waist: 28 (-0.5)
Hip: 33.2 (-1.3)
Thigh: 18.5 (-0.5)

Body fat: 13.9%
Height: 5'7
Weight 63.5kg

shavins

Hi funkey-monkey I'm very curious to know how you fared out with your diet/weightlifting?
I have a 7 yr old boy with pku so naturally I M very interested in this kind of thing. It's very hard to get reliable information from real people on the subject. If you don't mind I'd really like to hear how you got on. I have huge admiration for your attitude and work rate, I hope my man has the same attitude to pku as you do