Pilgrimage...... please explain

martinedwards

I come from a branch of Christianity that isn't big on pilgrimage.

OK, I admit it.

I'm a prod.

yet I see my Brothers and Sisters on here talking about going certain places and doing stuff which interests me.

I'm not looking for a fight or to ridicule anyone, I want to learn.

so Slemish? Croagh Patrick? Lourdes?

what's the deal?

whats the attraction?

I do know people who went to Toronto 20 odd years ago to join in with the services at Toronto Vineyard Church, but the idea of climbing to the top of a mountain for spritual reasons isn't something I've ever been involved in, or really had explained to me.

go on then, educate me!!

Brer Fox

I think you just do the things that appeal to you. Lourdes does nothing for me and I have no desire to go. Lough Derg does nothing for me either and I won't be going anytime soon. There are a couple places I'd like to go, but I have no money for foreign trips.

If you are drawn to any of these places, it can be good to go and have a look.

To me a pilgrimage is simply travelling to some place and hopefully, during that time, to experience some kind of spiritual renewal. It takes one out of the daily routine and allows one to use the time to get to know God and oneself better. One can avail of the sacraments (if one is Catholic) such as going to Confession and receiving Holy Communion. It can also be a welcome relief to the crap that you have to put up with in your daily life which can make you miserable.

lmaopml

martinedwards wrote: »

I come from a branch of Christianity that isn't big on pilgrimage.

OK, I admit it.

I'm a prod.

yet I see my Brothers and Sisters on here talking about going certain places and doing stuff which interests me.
what's the deal?

whats the attraction?

I do know people who went to Toronto 20 odd years ago to join in with the services at Toronto Vineyard Church, but the idea of climbing to the top of a mountain for spritual reasons isn't something I've ever been involved in, or really had explained to me.

go on then, educate me!!

Hi Martin. As Catholics we would believe that our whole life we are on a pilgrimage closer to God together - overcoming obstacles and journeying through the highs and lows in life. However, we live in the real world now where prayer and meditation and of course celebration and praise can be difficult to get around to in a 'united' way for an extended period of time ....so many distractions etc.

A pilgrimage is pretty much taking the time out to travel somewhere that has meaning to you with others and to pray and contemplate and share with other travelers. It can be a very personal and quiet experience depending on where you go and what you feel you need in order to get closer to God at that point in life, or it can be a real celebration of faith and praise together -

Personally, I love the idea of doing one of the trails on the 'Way of St. James' some day - this type of pilgrimage appeals to me moreso than others. Ending the journey at the Camino de Santiago Compostela on St. James day would be a lovely experience I think

Benny_Cake

A pilgrimage will mean different things to different people.Traditionally, making a pilgrimage involved considerable hardship and danger, and involved giving up a lot of time, but now someone can hop on a Ryanair flight, although there can be a good deal of hardship involved there too!

Lourdes and all that doesn't mean a lot to me, although I was in Lourdes years ago and was very moved by the love shown to the sick. Like lmaopml, I'd love to do something like the Camino de Santiago, which draws people of all faiths and none, because the journey itself should be as important as the destination. Getting away from the day to day routine and worries, and spending time thinking about faith,life, and being in the presence of God in the beauty of His creation. A great film about the Camino is The Way, produced by Emilio Estevez and starring his father Martin Sheen - well worth watching.

Onesimus

What is a Pilgrimage?

martinedwards

thanks folks, good answers all.

I've attended dawn services on the tops of mountains at Easter, and on the sea shore, and in my climbing days, have sent up a prayer of releif and thanks when I summited, but a while back I dawdles up Slemish a couple of days after st Patricks day.

the place was knee deep in litter, mainly tracts that had been dished out and then discarded....

really sad & bedraggled looking......

I can see how a pilgrimage could be a long fellowship and prayer meeting, the fact that you are travelling to somewhere signifigant is almost incidental......

that's good and valuable, but (with a WWJD armband somewhere in the house) I can't help thinkling about Jesus. he travelled a LOT. usually in company, and as they walked, he taught, so there are definite parallels.

but the idea of climbing Croagh Patrick on bare feet......

I can't see him doing that......

its all a bit..... you know that nutter priest in The Davinci code with the jaggy belt?....

in a time when some areas of society look very suspiciously at priests because of the abuses that the tiny minority were involved in, someone explain to me what the masocism thing is all about.

HamletOrHecuba

Skellig Michael is really worth seeing and in a very beautiful part of Ireland. Glendalough is also worth seeing.

Lourdes is too touristy. St Anthony the Great's cave in Egypt is really worth seeing as is Patmos, the Greek island where the Book of Revelation was written.

HamletOrHecuba

http://www.earlychristianireland.org/index.html

This website also covers Northern Ireland.

martinedwards

with an interest in how I got here, both politically and spiritually, I have an interest in historical sites, both Christian and preChristian.

I've been to a lot of Partick's sites......the small church at Saul is beautiful in it's simplicity. and the sign outside the C of I site in Errigle kerrogue is halarious. we're used to the date on the outside of buildings..... 1700 is old, right? it has something along the lines of "this church founded 453" or something like that... can't find the exact date.......

Armagh cathedrals.... both lovely, but both a mile from how my church does worship....

I would love to see the holy land some day..... there have been several trips from my church over the years, but I haven't had the time/cash/freedom from a litter of kids to go yet.

I guess it's the veneration of saints that's giving me the trouble.

I KNOW that Paul's handkerchief was enough to heal folks who touched it, so yes, there is a precident for items touched by those of great faith to have great powers in themselves, and by extension, why WOULDN'T the coat of St Jimmy The Plumber from Ahoghil be equally powerful and worth a visit.......

but we are told in the bible by none less than Jesus himself that the believers (ie US) will do even greater miracles than he himself did...... so surely we should be striving for these gifts rather than traipsing off halfway round the world to see a relic of dubious authenticity that another believer long ago used.....

and the idea of keeping st Kylie's toenails, tonsils and breast milk? sorry, but I just REALLY don't understand that one......

I dunno, I think its the veneration of these places and items that worries me... is worries the right word? confuses, might be better.....

the pilgrimage as a prayerful journey I get.

I understand that throwing aside all lifes hassles for a period of time and heading off on a trip with a couple of like minded mates can be a profound spiritual experience, regardless of denomination.

I highly recomend the book "the God with Sore legs" by Adrian A McCartney which is about him cycling around Ireland and the spiritual insights along the way.

THIS I get.

doing it in bare feet and with no saddle on the bike?

THAT would be seen as weird, right?

I Heart Internet

I can highly recommend walking the Camino de Santiago in northern spain.

Why?

Santiago houses the bones of St. James (if you believe that), alone time with yourself and God, great weather, food, wine, beautiful countryside, tell your friends about walking across and entire country, history, tradition, beautiful architecture, meeting GREAT PEOPLE along the way.

I honestly can't recommend it highly enough if you have the time to spare. You can make it as religious or secular as you like.

You'll meet (as I did) an amazing group of people walking it. From every corner of the world and every conceivable outlook on life.

Doc Farrell

Sounds fantastic, Vilnius turned into something of a pilgrimage to me although it didn't start out that way. I went over for a wedding and ended up studying Christianity and Judaism under the Nazis and Soviets. There are a great many places around both Ireland and Europe that I hope to visit, the greatest so far has been Skellig Michael. Many of the places mentioned by Paul are on my list, as are many places in the Holy Land, Turkey, Greece and Italy.
On a less orthodox note, Ryanair have a cheap flight to Carcassone which is a great area to get lost in if you have an interest in the history of the Cathars and Aer Lingus (the greatest airline in the world) fly to Dubrovnik which is a great hub to investigate Croatia. They held a plane for me once for half an hour which is something Ryanair would never do. Didn't make me the most popular traveller on the plane with the other flyers though.
Hope whatever you choose that you get the full IMAX experience out of it.

Benny_Cake

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I can highly recommend walking the Camino de Santiago in northern spain.

Why?

Santiago houses the bones of St. James (if you believe that), alone time with yourself and God, great weather, food, wine, beautiful countryside, tell your friends about walking across and entire country, history, tradition, beautiful architecture, meeting GREAT PEOPLE along the way.

I honestly can't recommend it highly enough if you have the time to spare. You can make it as religious or secular as you like.

You'll meet (as I did) an amazing group of people walking it. From every corner of the world and every conceivable outlook on life.

I'm truly jealous, and the Camino is surprisingly affordable - it's all a question of finding the time! The pilgrim Mass in Santiago looks like a really moving experience even for non-Catholics.

Brer Fox

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'm truly jealous, and the Camino is surprisingly affordable - it's all a question of finding the time! The pilgrim Mass in Santiago looks like a really moving experience even for non-Catholics.

Is there a regular pilgrim Mass or just one during the summer?

qrrgprgua

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I can highly recommend walking the Camino de Santiago in northern spain.

Why?

Santiago houses the bones of St. James (if you believe that), alone time with yourself and God, great weather, food, wine, beautiful countryside, tell your friends about walking across and entire country, history, tradition, beautiful architecture, meeting GREAT PEOPLE along the way.

I honestly can't recommend it highly enough if you have the time to spare. You can make it as religious or secular as you like.

You'll meet (as I did) an amazing group of people walking it. From every corner of the world and every conceivable outlook on life.

I just did it... HIGHLY recommend it .. and there were many people doing it who were Protestant/Non religious...

fantastic experience.

qrrgprgua

Brer Fox wrote: »

Is there a regular pilgrim Mass or just one during the summer?

everyday at 12:00

Brer Fox

qrrgprgua, can you do it camping? i don't like the idea of being in a big dorm with a bunch of strangers. if i did the camino, it would be alone, and i'd rather sleep in a small tent.

can you do that?

what about fresh drinking water? is there a well, springs, or fountains along the way?

are there nice rivers and streams along the way?

are there woods and forests and mountains?

is food expensive?

what's the weather like?

lots of questions i know, but if you can answer as many as possible, that would be wonderful.

I Heart Internet

This book explains it all:
http://www.caminoguides.com/camino_frances/index.html

It's the only one you'll need (if indeed you need any).

My recommendations (for what they're worth):

- Do it alone. If you do it with friends/family you will stick with them. If you do it alone you will meet and talk with far more people.
- If you can spare a full month to walk say, St. Jean (France) to Sanitago do it. Walking for a week or two is fine but you will find many people "do the camino backwards" i.e. do it for a week then come back next year and start walking from further out.
- Pack light......then repack and pack even lighter again. You will hadwash clothers every day. 3 underpants will suffice!
- Stay wherever you find yourself....refugios from €0 per night to €7-10 per night.
- Don't go in high summer.
- Carry everything you need on your back - unless you have real health problems (there are services which take your bags along for you).

- Do it. Above all do it!

I Heart Internet

Brer Fox wrote: »

qrrgprgua, can you do it camping?

I guess so - but this would be more difficult as you'd need to find a place to pitch every night.

Brer Fox wrote: »

i don't like the idea of being in a big dorm with a bunch of strangers.

That's part of the camino tbh. Although you will certainly find private rooms to rent all along the way. I found rolling out my sleeping bag on a bunk or rubber mattress on the floor a great part of the pilgramage experience.

Brer Fox wrote: »

what about fresh drinking water? is there a well, springs, or fountains along the way?

Yes feuntes - but Spain is a developed country so you can buy a bottle or just use taps in all of the hostels. This isn't an issue. Bear in mind this is an incredibly populat pilgrim path (the standard routes) and has been for pushing on 1000 years. So it is very well set up to cater for a pilgrim's every need.

Brer Fox wrote: »

are there nice rivers and streams along the way?

Absolutely, lots of different routes but the "main" one is right across Northern Spain

Brer Fox wrote: »

are there woods and forests and mountains?

Ummm yes :rolleyes:

Brer Fox wrote: »

is food expensive?

No. €5-6 Pilgrim dinner. Cheap cafes along the way.

Brer Fox wrote: »

what's the weather like?

Totally depends on region you're in and time of year. I had 1 day of rain out of 30+

Brer Fox

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I guess so - but this would be more difficult as you'd need to find a place to pitch every night.

That's part of the camino tbh. Although you will certainly find private rooms to rent all along the way. I found rolling out my sleeping bag on a bunk or rubber mattress on the floor a great part of the pilgramage experience.

Yes feuntes - but Spain is a developed country so you can buy a bottle or just use taps in all of the hostels. This isn't an issue. Bear in mind this is an incredibly populat pilgrim path (the standard routes) and has been for pushing on 1000 years. So it is very well set up to cater for a pilgrim's every need.

Absolutely, lots of different routes but the "main" one is right across Northern Spain

Totally depends on region you're in and time of year. I had 1 day of rain out of 30+

Where do you get pilgrim dinner? Is it good food?

Is there a quiet route with more woods and mountains? If I did it, I'd want to do it 'Ray Mears style' - camping, washing in rivers, etc... But then again, camping stoves would be extra weight and bother...

Can you camp in the woods or in a field beside a stream? Would anyone mind?

How fit do you need to be? Do you need to train in advance?

Are midges or mosquitoes a problem?

How much would a month cost including flights, food, and insurance? I would be afraid of running out of money 3/4 way through.

Did you bring a compact camera? What about computers? Or would that be against the spirit of the thing? Is there wi-fi along the way?

Can you bring binoculars and do a bit of birdwatching along the way or would that be against the spirit of the pilgrimage? (A priest once told me to put the binoculars away when I went to a scenic place to do a retreat.)

I'd like to do the walk in the summer but the heat would probably kill me so best wait 'til the fall. That'll give me time to raise a bit of money.

[The picture on the cover of the book you recommended stirs my soul big time! Thanks - I just ordered the book!]

qrrgprgua

Brer Fox wrote: »

Where do you get pilgrim dinner? Is it good food?

Is there a quiet route with more woods and mountains? If I did it, I'd want to do it 'Ray Mears style' - camping, washing in rivers, etc... But then again, camping stoves would be extra weight and bother...

Can you camp in the woods or in a field beside a stream? Would anyone mind?

How fit do you need to be? Do you need to train in advance?

Are midges or mosquitoes a problem?

How much would a month cost including flights, food, and insurance? I would be afraid of running out of money 3/4 way through.

Did you bring a compact camera? What about computers? Or would that be against the spirit of the thing? Is there wi-fi along the way?

Can you bring binoculars and do a bit of birdwatching along the way or would that be against the spirit of the pilgrimage? (A priest once told me to put the binoculars away when I went to a scenic place to do a retreat.)

I'd like to do the walk in the summer but the heat would probably kill me so best wait 'til the fall. That'll give me time to raise a bit of money.

[The picture on the cover of the book you recommended stirs my soul big time! Thanks - I just ordered the book!]

You can do and bring what you like and go where you like... There is no set camino.. everyones camino is different.


Many use this website for info on the camino

http://caminodesantiago.consumer.es/los-caminos-de-santiago/frances/

Yes you can camp.. but why bother bringing a tent when many councils have free/cheap albergues to stay in and you give a small donation usually 5 euros.

Costs.. They say consider a euro per KM

Register on this forum

http://www.caminodesantiago.me/board/el-camino-frances/?sid=d0ab7df28a2e87c6e294a45be08ead6f

Every question you ever asked you will find there.

There were no issues with insects the week I was there. We stayed in one farmhouse which had issues but the had double doors to dormitory and mosquito nets on windows, nobody got bitten,.


I brought my compact camera and ipad/iphone.. Many people just a phone and remain cut off from world.. again its your choice.


in the summer you would have to walk from 5am to 11am or 12 and avoid the heat altogether. Then you rest the afternoon and have the 9 euro pilgrim supper.

Supper is a first plate/2nd plate/desert/+wine or water. Big portions, you won't go hungry. Any there are hundreds of restaurants that offer this "cena del peregrino".

There are many private albergues where you pay 18-20 euros and you get a bed and dinner.. We have some amazing communal dinners.. where we ate what they served,, amazing soups, pastas, meats..

But the best part of the camino are the people you meet... after some days you will find like minded people and just gel.. and end up walking the rest together.


I covered over 270 km in 8 days which was way too much... I would advise anyone who is walking only to do 20-25km... I am very fit and I can walk easily 40-50km in a day... the problem is the following days.. so better to take it easy and get there in comfort.. Walk 2 hours and stop for a coffee there are hundreds of bars...


As regards scenary.. well the camino has everything, from city outshirts not nice to amazing mountains...

I will go back and do the whole french way from Saint Jean.


Also for those who are not catholic or even religious.. there are hundreds of people just doing it because its there.. and its the best way to see nothern Spain on the ground,, no buses.. just you and an 8kg backpack and a good pair of boots.

qrrgprgua

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. €5-6 Pilgrim dinner. Cheap cafes along the way.

Forgot to add. Some albergues have kitchens you can use. Some evenings a group of us would getogether and go to shop buy pasta/bread/wine and make a meal ourselves.. worked out cheap aswell.

Brer Fox

I'd be concerned about having no Spanish and getting lost or running out of money. Things add up, and if you are buying bottled water and food every day, a hefty bill will result. I remember on a walk I did for two weeks, I got home to find a credit card bill of over £100 from just energy drinks and chocolate bars! That's not to mention food and lodgings. Hence why I like the idea of a tent but for that I'd be wanting to do wilderness-style camping, not paying campsite charges.

Also, in the hostels, is there a mad rush in the morning so that you can't get near the washrooms? You end up saying forget it!

Rasheed

I have been to lourdes and knock and found both absolutely beautiful. Yes, they can be a bit touristy but not down in the grotto. There is a fantastic calmness in these places and the Catholicism isn't 'thrown' in your face. The peacefulness and serenity is what I enjoyed most of all and I felt you didn't have to be on bended knee saying the rosary all the time. I'm going back to Lourdes this year and I can't wait to recharge my batteries and leave the sh1t of life behind for awhile.

vektarman

Brer Fox wrote: »

I'd be concerned about having no Spanish and getting lost or running out of money. Things add up, and if you are buying bottled water and food every day, a hefty bill will result.

I wouldn't be too concerned about having no Spanish, my experience on the camino was, even though I speak some Spanish, it wasn't absolutely necessary, as Spanish people are very friendly and will go out of their way to help, although it would be appreciated by them if you can make an attempt at a few words.
As for bottled water, I found that most towns had drinking water fountains (agua potable), one even had a wine fountain, I think the town was called Irache. Parts of the Camino also had pilgrim rest areas with water fountains.
I went in mid May, the early parts of the route were very quiet with few pilgrims but as I got closer to Santiago it got a lot busier, if you travel by yourself and prefer to walk or cycle alone for a while other pilgrims will understand that and give you space although the option is also there at any time to meet some wonderful people.

qrrgprgua

Brer Fox wrote: »

I'd be concerned about having no Spanish and getting lost or running out of money. Things add up, and if you are buying bottled water and food every day, a hefty bill will result. I remember on a walk I did for two weeks, I got home to find a credit card bill of over £100 from just energy drinks and chocolate bars! That's not to mention food and lodgings. Hence why I like the idea of a tent but for that I'd be wanting to do wilderness-style camping, not paying campsite charges.

Also, in the hostels, is there a mad rush in the morning so that you can't get near the washrooms? You end up saying forget it!

1. 90% of people who do the camino don't have spanish.
2. The way is extremely well marked.. every bend and turn has yellow arrows..
3. Money well everyone is different.

As regards hostels well there are many of differnt levels. At the end of the day you get what pay for... if you stay in the free hostels don't expect 5 star treatment.

Its your choice. But anyone who has done the camino will agree its an amazing experience. Life is for living..


You can also do it in stages. do a week every year..

|There is a camino for every budget.

Brer Fox

Would it spoil the experience if I did the walk with an Irish friend or two?

I know it would be nice to do it alone, but it could also be a bit eerie, especially camping out alone in Spain.

qrrgprgua

Brer Fox wrote: »

Would it spoil the experience if I did the walk with an Irish friend or two?

I know it would be nice to do it alone, but it could also be a bit eerie, especially camping out alone in Spain.

I would recommend you didn't camp. But its your choice. You can walk the camino anyway you like.. You can even do it on a Bike or horseback.

Lots of people start it in groups, its up to you to do it as you wish.

There are many forums that offer advice from people who have done the camino.

The only thing you really need to do is walk the last 100km or 200km on a bike to get your compostella. You will also need to get your credential stamped twice a day at the hostels, bars, or churchs along the way. Apart from that its your decision what you want to do.

Brer Fox

Can you rent-a-horse?

Why are you against camping?

Is the compostella a certificate of completion? I thought you started out in France and ended up in the cathedral in Spain with your card stamped at every town or village along the way?

qrrgprgua wrote: »

I would recommend you didn't camp. But its your choice. You can walk the camino anyway you like.. You can even do it on a Bike or horseback.

Lots of people start it in groups, its up to you to do it as you wish.

There are many forums that offer advice from people who have done the camino.

The only thing you really need to do is walk the last 100km or 200km on a bike to get your compostella. You will also need to get your credential stamped twice a day at the hostels, bars, or churchs along the way. Apart from that its your decision what you want to do.

qrrgprgua

Brer Fox wrote: »

Can you rent-a-horse?

Why are you against camping?

Is the compostella a certificate of completion? I thought you started out in France and ended up in the cathedral in Spain with your card stamped at every town or village along the way?

If you can start out on any of the routes leading to Santiago de Compostela. There are many routes, From Portugal, the English route, Northern one.

To get your compostela all you need to do is walk the last 100km and get your credential stamped twice a day.

The French route is the most popular.

I don't know much about the horse option, I only know it can be done, I saw nobody on horseback.

contact the Society of St. James http://www.stjamesirl.com/

They will give you more info. But there are thousand of blogs and accounts of the camino and plenty of books.

You should see the movie "the Way" sign up for your free month on netflix and see it for free.

Camping. I would be against it for the simple fact you are carrying extra weight in a tent.. but that is my opinion you can do the camino as you like.

Brer Fox

qrrgprgua wrote: »

If you can start out on any of the routes leading to Santiago de Compostela. There are many routes, From Portugal, the English route, Northern one.

To get your compostela all you need to do is walk the last 100km and get your credential stamped twice a day.

The French route is the most popular.

I don't know much about the horse option, I only know it can be done, I saw nobody on horseback.

contact the Society of St. James http://www.stjamesirl.com/

They will give you more info. But there are thousand of blogs and accounts of the camino and plenty of books.

You should see the movie "the Way" sign up for your free month on netflix and see it for free.

Camping. I would be against it for the simple fact you are carrying extra weight in a tent.. but that is my opinion you can do the camino as you like.

Great thanks. Your posts are insightful. So which route is the most traditional, i.e. the one most likely traveled by the Apostle?

I saw The Way at Christmas.

qrrgprgua

Brer Fox wrote: »

Great thanks. Your posts are insightful. So which route is the most traditional, i.e. the one most likely traveled by the Apostle?

I saw The Way at Christmas.

There is no way that is more authentic. but the french way is the most Popular.

The camino only started in the past 1000 years.

Brer Fox

qrrgprgua wrote: »

There is no way that is more authentic. but the french way is the most Popular.

The camino only started in the past 1000 years.

It would be nice to start with a visit to Fatima in Portugal then set out on the Camino. I think I am being a little ambitious though. I am currently pondering how on earth I a going to fund my trip.

bonniebede

martinedwards wrote: »

yet.

I guess it's the veneration of saints that's giving me the trouble.


but we are told in the bible by none less than Jesus himself that the believers (ie US) will do even greater miracles than he himself did...... so surely we should be striving for these gifts rather than traipsing off halfway round the world to see a relic of dubious authenticity that another believer long ago used.....

and the idea of keeping st Kylie's toenails, tonsils and breast milk? sorry, but I just REALLY don't understand that one......

I dunno, I think its the veneration of these places and items that worries me... is worries the right word? confuses, might be better.....

?

A lot of these Catholic distinctives have there basis in the incarnation.

We follow the pattern set by jesus - god is not content to remain invisible to us but God becomes man so that in Jesus we have the image of the invisible God made visible. Col 1:15

There is a prayer in the mass which I think helps... we pray to the father, that He 'may see and love in us what (He) sees and loves in Him (Christ).

In other words, we know that when we are in Chirst, The FAther sees in us the image of his beloved son, whose members we are.

Similarly, the Saints are attractive to us because they, being close to God, allow something of the invisible nature of God shine out into the world. Think of how we see in Mother Teresa something of the compassion of God, or in Gordon Wilson something of the forgiveness of God, and so on. When we venerate the saints, we are really praising God. Just as we learn in living our own Christian life that all good in us comes from God (I know of nothing good living in me Romans 7:18 / It is no longer i who live but christ living in me Galatians 2:20) so it is in the lives of the saints we venerate, by honouring them, we are in fact honouring the work of God in them.

You i am sure are comfortable with looking at nature and seeing in it the glory of God expressed (see Psalm 104) but in Genesis 1, hen God creates the world and then mankind, he looks at the rest of the world and says it is good, but looks at man as says 'very good'.
now what can be more good for nature than that by being whatever it was created to be...sun moon stars, creatures etc, their existence gives glory to god; in the same way our human existance has as its purpose not our own glory but the glory of God. The way we do that is different to say a tree, a tree just has to be a tree to give god glory, but for humans we must be morally good, that involves our free will and the choices we make etc. (Sorry i know you know all this , being a Christian)

Anyway, the bottom line is that in venerating (not worshipping) the saints we are in fact honouring God, who has made them holy, not thinking they have done something in their own strength.

Maybe it would help to realise that worship (to declare the worth of, to praise) for Catholics is two different things. For most protestants it is one thing, and so, (rightly) it is uncomfortable to feel you are worshipping God and worshipping a human being, no matter how good that human being might be.

But for Catholics, there is latria - worship which is offered to God, and dulia honour which is given to saints.
Latria means worship with sacrifice. We only offer sacrifice to God - it is utterly forbidden to worship any human being, even a saint or mary in this way, as this is the way we worship god alone.

Dulia is honour, but not with sacrifice. It follows the old testament tradition given in Sirach:

Sirach 44:1, 10-15
1 Next let us praise illustrious men, our ancestors in their successive generations.
10 But here is a list of illustrious men whose good works have not been forgotten.
11 In their descendants they find a rich inheritance, their posterity.
12 Their descendants stand by the commandments and, thanks to them, so do their children's children.
13 Their offspring will last for ever, their glory will not fade.
14 Their bodies have been buried in peace, and their name lives on for all generations.
15 The peoples will proclaim their wisdom, the assembly will celebrate their praises.

Now the old testament contains only shadows of what is in the new Covenant - in the NT the illustrious men to be praised are those who have come to God through Jesus the lamb

Heb.10

B]1[/B For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices which are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near.


Revelation 7:14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

REvelation 22:14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

nonetheless, if those who in the ot were just and good are to be remembered and honoured, how much more in the fullness of the new covenant are those who are made righteous by the work of Christ to be remembered and honoured?

Would it make sense that those, who are righteous in Christ would be honoured less than those who were righteous under the law, when the law itself was only a preparation for Christ?

Similarly - in the OT we see the bones of good men being honoured (Josephs bones are carried out from egypt) and even working miracles (Elisha's bones bring a dead man back to life). So in the new testament, we see that the bodies of the saints, made holy by God, continue to link us to the power of God, not in some magical way, but simply because the person whose bones they are is in communion with God. (Our bodies do not stop being 'ours' even after death, we await the resurrection of the dead when we will be reunited with these same bodies, which will also be glorified as Christ had the same body which was put in the tomb, but after the resurrection it was new in some mysterious way (walking through locked doors for example)