The leaving cert system is not only unfair, it's illogical and it's getting worse.

partyatmygaff

unreggd wrote: »

I didnt say everybody, but I was speaking in terms of the compulsory subjects, and the minimum amount of subjects you study.

The compulsory subjects are all interesting. Or at least I found them interesting. For the exam, I would have preferred to have done another subject other than Irish but I still found it an interesting class nonetheless.

The idea of studying 8, but only getting graded on 7 is stupid

That would definitely be stupid. But it has nothing to do with reality. You're graded for every exam you sit whether that be one or ten. Your top six grades are then counted for points.

The Irish syllabus is a sham. Its all built on the assumption that every student is fluent. It should be taught as a foreign, spoken language.

I'd have a different view. I don't think Irish will ever become a mainstream spoken language again. I think the old syllabus had it right with its focus on history and literature. But it should have been made an optional subject.

Something that you can use long term in a non-work situation, such as actually speaking a new language, cooking, driving, proper first aid [not the TY crash-course].

Speaking a new language? Well and truly covered.
Cooking? Home economics maybe? Not that difficult for someone to learn on their own anyway.
Driving? Fair enough if you want to put it on the secondary school curriculum but we're talking about the Leaving Cert here which is an exam.

English certainly does not cater for strong communication, as the assignments are so restricted, its difficult for the learner to give a proper opinion.

Not really. Paper I offers huge scope.

and grammar is left in primary school.

As it should be... Grammar and Spelling should be taught in primary school but unfortunately primary teaching is a bit lacking in that area.

The obvious necessity is Fitness and Nutrition. It should be a staple right through the 6 years of school, again, not just a quick article read from a magazine in Religion/SPHE class.

Again, unless you're suggesting that "fitness and nutrition" is made an examinable subject then my answer remains "That's fine and good but irrelevant to the LC".

partyatmygaff

reznov wrote: »

The learning of languages in the LC is a joke. Rote memorisation of essays to display what a skilled speaker you are. If you want an A, that is. They should have more realistic requirements instead to encourage people to study them.

I got an A1 in English without systematically memorising a single quote let alone entire essays.

The requirements are very realistic for an A1. Realistic but stringent and difficult to meet without a lot of effort and determination. Some people may get lucky and get an A1 by regurgitating a top class memorised essay but the SEC's recent exam papers are putting a stop to that.

Yeah no grammar or technical aspects of English are taught.

Teaching basic English grammar to native speakers at the age of 17/18 is nothing short of an embarrassment.

As for technical aspects of the language, that's more or less what the entire LC course is all about. Poetic techniques in Paper II and writing modes in paper I are prime examples.

Once more, mainly rote memorisation which is a paradox in itself.
Only English my teachers have taught me are their own typed essays!

Your English teachers mustn't be any good at their job then if their method of teaching revolves around giving you essays to memorise.

Lago

unreggd wrote: »

The obvious necessity is Fitness and Nutrition. It should be a staple right through the 6 years of school, again, not just a quick article read from a magazine in Religion/SPHE class..

This. A million times this.

For the last two years we spent 2 hours a week in Religion classes. Not the LC subject, just a class called religion, supervised by the religion teachers. An hour and twenty minutes a week was spent with a speaker which were, for the most part, useless. One week it was just a random, crazy man with a guitar who played some songs and began to deal us about his life (which wasn't important or anything) and would then stop because we "weren't listening" and said he couldn't tell us about personal things. The other 40 minutes was spent in a classroom either watching a video or just doing nothing.

All this while people around me clearly have no idea about fitness and nutrition. I'm very interested in fitness and nutrition and have thought myself about it because of that. Yet people around me who aren't as interested as me are losing out on a very important life skill to spent an hour+ listening to travellers and former alcoholics. What kind of country do we have that a certain amount of time is complusory for a religion every week as if there was a tolerance problem in this country, and religious tolerance isn't even taught?

finality

reznov wrote: »

The learning of languages in the LC is a joke. Rote memorisation of essays to display what a skilled speaker you are. If you want an A, that is. They should have more realistic requirements instead to encourage people to study them.

Yeah no grammar or technical aspects of English are taught. Once more, mainly rote memorisation which is a paradox in itself.
Only English my teachers have taught me are their own typed essays!

I don't think that's true at all in the case of German, can't really comment on other languages. Most of the marks go for speaking, listening and comprehensions, with the only "essay" type questions being a response on a theme (which can be anything and can't be prepared) and a letter where you're asked specific questions you have to respond to. I really like the structure of the German exam as it does reward fluency, not rote learning.

Obviously you have to learn vocabulary and expressions, but how else are you supposed to become competent in a language?

As for English, by the time it comes to leaving cert, students should absolutely not have to be taught grammar or vocabulary. Someone looking for an A or B by that point should already have an excellent grasp of the mechanics of the language. If a student has never taken an interest in reading, which would naturally develop their standard of English, obviously they're going to have a less than adequate command of the language. That doesn't mean the time of more able students who are hoping for high grades should be wasted on the basics, when it's not really a fault of the system but a fault of the individual if their English is inadequate by fifth year.

unreggd

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The compulsory subjects are all interesting. Or at least I found them interesting.

Well for most its not. Particularly English and Irish due to the heavily out-dated literature

That would definitely be stupid. But it has nothing to do with reality. You're graded for every exam you sit whether that be one or ten. Your top six grades are then counted for points.

But you don't get the choice to only study 6. Each subject is a big risk, as it will always be your overall knowledge, geared towards the exam, vs the questions you happen to get. If you had the choice to only do 6 subjects, you'd get more classes in them, so you should have a better knowledge

I'd have a different view. I don't think Irish will ever become a mainstream spoken language again. I think the old syllabus had it right with its focus on history and literature. But it should have been made an optional subject.

Yes, it never will, because of the syllabus! I was the top of my class, but I still wasn't fluent by 6th year, whereas I only started French in 1st year, and Im at a higher level of fluency. They need to teach Irish exactly like French, and class it as a spoken language for colleges that want an extra language. Right now, you have to do everything on the English paper, plus the oral, listening, reading, and all the time worry about actually being able to say what you want to.

Home economics maybe?

Exactly. If you want to be a chef, you have to also be a dressmaker! They might as well call it 'Stepford Wives Studies'

Driving? Fair enough if you want to put it on the secondary school curriculum but we're talking about the Leaving Cert here which is an exam.

Yes, Ive been speaking about the curriculum as a whole. School is dominated by fact-based classes with the aim to simply pass an exam. Not learn a long-term skill etc

Again, unless you're suggesting that "fitness and nutrition" is made an examinable subject then my answer remains "That's fine and good but irrelevant to the LC".

Yes, it should. Do you think passing a history exam will suit anyone long-term, compared to an in-depth knowledge of fitness and nutrition?
Ignorance is the main culprit of the global pandemic of health issues

unreggd

finality wrote: »

As for English, by the time it comes to leaving cert, students should absolutely not have to be taught grammar or vocabulary...

I agree, not close to the LC in 5/6th year, but there needs to be more reiteration of the fundamentals of grammar/language in 1st and 2nd year

finality

unreggd wrote: »

Well for most its not. Particularly English and Irish due to the heavily out-dated literature


But you don't get the choice to only study 6. Each subject is a big risk, as it will always be your overall knowledge, geared towards the exam, vs the questions you happen to get. If you had the choice to only do 6 subjects, you'd get more classes in them, so you should have a better knowledge


Yes, it never will, because of the syllabus! I was the top of my class, but I still wasn't fluent by 6th year, whereas I only started French in 1st year, and Im at a higher level of fluency. They need to teach Irish exactly like French, and class it as a spoken language for colleges that want an extra language. Right now, you have to do everything on the English paper, plus the oral, listening, reading, and all the time worry about actually being able to say what you want to.


Exactly. If you want to be a chef, you have to also be a dressmaker! They might as well call it 'Stepford Wives Studies'


Yes, Ive been speaking about the curriculum as a whole. School is dominated by fact-based classes with the aim to simply pass an exam. Not learn a long-term skill etc


Yes, it should. Do you think passing a history exam will suit anyone long-term, compared to an in-depth knowledge of fitness and nutrition?
Ignorance is the main culprit of the global pandemic of health issues

Did you do home economics in school? I did it for the junior cert and these was a huge focus on nutrition and cooking. There's a craft project but "dressmaking" is a bit far fetched. I think that's actually optional, you can do a childcare project or something along those lines instead. I learned a lot about cooking and nutrition in junior cert home ec. We used to learn how to make something different every two weeks as far as I recall.

No leaving cert subject is specialized to a profession. If you want to be a doctor you might have to study the structure of a plant in biology... how's that any different to someone wanting to be a chef studying "dressmaking"?

As for fitness, how much is there to teach about that, really? Staying fit is something you just have to do, we all know how much exercise we should get, and having it repeated to us isn't going to make us actually get up and go for a run. That's a decision a person has to make themselves for the good of their own health, no amount of education on the subject can force someone to exercise.

A final note on English literature. How is it outdated? We study Shakespeare so the whole course is outdated? That's simply incorrect, the vast majority of material I covered, personally, was very modern. The Kite Runner and Inside I'm Dancing were two of my comparative texts, for instance. All of the poets on this year's course were modern too. Or do you mean reading is outdated or something? :rolleyes:

K_1

partyatmygaff wrote: »

As it should be... Grammar and Spelling should be thought in primary school but unfortunately primary teaching is a bit lacking in that area.

Oh the irony . . . :rolleyes:

Wanchor

You're still focusing on already in place subjects. If the Leaving Cert is ever going to change, a complete revamp of the system is needed and that could mean changing subjects entirely.

RedTexan

K_1 wrote: »

HL maths paper 1 last year.

Q1 - 15,15,20 - the b part was too hard.
Q2 - 15,20,15 - c part too hard.
Q3 - 15,15,20 - b too hard
Q4,5 - normal
Q6 - 15,20,15- c too hard
Q7 - 10,25,15 - c too hard
Q8 - 15,25,10 - c too hard

I know last years was exceptionally hard,but thats not ''rarely happens''.

I would say q1 c, q6 c and q8 c will be marked down this year.

Why do you think that? (For the questions you think will be marked down this year)

partyatmygaff

unreggd wrote: »

Well for most its not. Particularly English and Irish due to the heavily out-dated literature

Considering Irish itself is somewhat "out-dated" I think that's to be expected. As for English, i'd consider most of the material to be timeless.

Yes, Ive been speaking about the curriculum as a whole. School is dominated by fact-based classes with the aim to simply pass an exam. Not learn a long-term skill etc

What about English and Maths? Or other subjects like Engineering/DCG/Technology? Facts alone aren't enough to succeed in any of those subjects.

Yes, it should. Do you think passing a history exam will suit anyone long-term, compared to an in-depth knowledge of fitness and nutrition?

Suit anyone? When it comes to what suits people, a lot of people would prefer a history class to a fitness/nutrition class.

Fitness/Nutrition can just be integrated to PE. It's far too specific of a topic to warrant its own subject in the LC.

Ignorance is the main culprit of the global pandemic of health issues

It is but that doesn't necessarily mean a fitness/nutrition exam will solve that problem.

K_1 wrote: »

Oh the irony . . . :rolleyes:

We all make mistakes... especially when re-watching Italy/Spain highlights

happyfish

I did my Leaving Cert in 2010 and I remember feeling the exact same level of panic and outrage as people are expressing in this thread. I remember hearing all kinds of talk about how it was getting less predictable and how much harder it was for our year. I know it's easy for me to say but whether the exams are seen as difficult or not has little bearing on how well ye will do. Every year there's some controversy that seems like the end of the world at the time, but overall between the bell curve and other papers, it'll balance out and you'll get the results you deserve.

To be honest I don't think the main problem with the leaving cert isn't the material and how relevant or otherwise it is. The way the whole country focuses in on this exam, having it all over the media is doing students a massive disservice IMO. It makes it seem like the most important thing in the world when it's really, really not. From personal experience, the most important thing is to be happy with the course or whatever path you chose out of school. I think the biggest problem with the Leaving Cert is that it takes the focus off the more important issue for 6th years, which is that school is ending and you have to figure out what you're doing!

Anyway basically I agree with a lot of what has been said here about the leaving cert but in the middle of your leaving cert is not the time to be worrying about it as everything gets so blown out of proportion. Just do your best but focus on keeping as calm as possible because it really isn't the end of the world

I know I'm off topic, rambling and missing the point but I just really wanted that off my chest!

sarahmocks

Personally I did cover the whole course for all subjects with the exception of larkin (our teacher refused to for some unkown reason), and everybody saying that you have two years to do the course your right. but when it comes to revision time (march onwards) where i had the course finished, you do not have the time to revise absolutely everything! its impossible i dont care what anybody says! we have to narrow it down when it gets to this stage! I do think that the way questions are being asked (english Paper 2 especially) is a bit unfair! like i knew the information to go in to most of these answers but the wording of questions threw me off a bit! they make you second guess yourself, which is not something you want in an exam!
Personally I don't like project maths, i find it exteremly confusing and i dont like the way that certain areas are more valued than others for example i like the circle etc i can do pretty much all of the old course questions but then when you go to the project maths papers theres only a tiny bit about it and a lot more emphasis on probability/statistics which might as well be a different language to me!
finally i think that the people who say that the leaving is too easy obviously havent either done their leaving or else it was a long time ago when questions were asked a lot easier! e.g. Give a personal response to the poetry of Patrick Kavanagh etc! like come on!

Alqua

The problem is the system, The LC is a diabolical shambles that ruins many young bright peoples lives, look at Germany. They are the smartest nation in Europe. Why?? Because they only study 4 subjects.... 4 subjects.... and these subjects are not based on memory, based on actual interest in the subject and intelligence.

Sorry to pull a quote from a few pages back! The thing about Germany though, is that people don't usually go straight from school to college like we do in Ireland. I'm not saying that the SEC or the department are doing a good job, but as long as the Leaving Cert remains a college entry exam it's difficult for it to be an effective exam in its own right or have much educational value.

Yes steps can be taken to improve this, but as we've seen they have to be taken very slowly. As long as the points race and the 'THIS DECIDES YOUR FUTURE' pressure that's put on students survive, it will be difficult to change the system. The whole culture of hype (which the media doesn't help) needs to be challenged. In fairness it's difficult to talk about a broad education syllabus when CAO points are foremost on people's minds, yet we can't blame students/teachers for doing the best they can with what they have.
Sorry, bit of a ramble there!

To all ye LC'ers, yes it's crap, but everyone has gone through it and out the other side and ye will be no different! You will nearly always do better in the end than you think you did on the day. Remember, no matter what you want to do, there is always a way to get there! LC or CAO 2012 is not going to decide the path of anyone's life! For now chin up, and enjoy the summer - you're nearly free!

randylonghorn

sarahmocks wrote: »

finally i think that the people who say that the leaving is too easy obviously havent either done their leaving or else it was a long time ago when questions were asked a lot easier! e.g. Give a personal response to the poetry of Patrick Kavanagh etc! like come on!

Um ...

_______________________________________________________

Sample poetry questions from English HL

1995


Example 1.

"The epic Paradise Lost by Milton, is written in a sublime style."

Relating the above quote to Book 1 of Paradise Lost, discuss what you think are the factors which give Milton's language its sublimity.

Example 2.

"Bitter disillusionment with the reality he found in Ireland and reluctant acceptance of the realities he found within himself are the major thrusts of Yeats' poetry."

Discuss this view, supporting your answer by quotation from or reference to the poems of Yeats on your course.

2000

Example 1.

"While Keats' poetry celebrates life, it also acknowledges life's limitations."

Discuss this statement, supporting your answer by reference to the poems of Keats on your course.


Example 2.

“Hopkins conveys deep personal experience in a style which is both refreshing and dramatic.”

Discuss this statement in its entirety, supporting your answer by reference to the poems by Hopkins on your course.

_____________________________________________________



That "write a personal response to ..." type question first appears in 2002 with the new course; questions had been *much* more specific before that (not to mention that the course included Dryden and Milton and much more difficult poets than are currently scheduled).

And by degrees it became apparent that such extremely open / general questions were encouraging students simply to learn off pre-prepared essays and regurgitate them in the exam (and not always even their own essays either).

So gradually the pendulum is beginning to swing back the other way; it's hardly surprising really, if you think about it.

unreggd

partyatmygaff wrote: »

When it comes to what suits people, a lot of people would prefer a history class to a fitness/nutrition class

How can you know, theres never been both to compare.

Fitness/Nutrition can just be integrated to PE. It's far too specific of a topic to warrant its own subject in the LC

PE is physical practice, once a week, you couldnt integrate much at all. Sure most schools drop PE altogether for 6th year, the one year its needed the most. Theres plenty to cover in the area of fitness and nutrition. It can be as broad or specific as necessary. But its about developing a proper mindset about health and fitness, something more than EXERCISE A FEW TIMES A WEEK, EAT HEALTHY FOOD, WANNA LOSE WEIGHT? EAT LESS

It is but that doesn't necessarily mean a fitness/nutrition exam will solve that problem

Not entirely, but it would dramatically improve the overall situation without a doubt. It's about educated choices.


Still, the overall structure of second-level education is massively flawed. They're assessing your overall intelligence based on unreliable results.

partyatmygaff

unreggd wrote: »

PE is physical practice, once a week, you couldnt integrate much at all.

Obviously you'd have to change the subject a bit but that's the only feasible way of including fitness and nutrition education in secondary school.

Otherwise a standalone "fitness/nutrition" class would end up being something akin to a sport's science class which sounds a bit too narrow of a subject for the LC.

Sure most schools drop PE altogether for 6th year, the one year its needed the most. Theres plenty to cover in the area of fitness and nutrition. It can be as broad or specific as necessary. But its about developing a proper mindset about health and fitness, something more than EXERCISE A FEW TIMES A WEEK, EAT HEALTHY FOOD, WANNA LOSE WEIGHT? EAT LESS

Like what exactly? Say if there was a written exam for a fitness/nutrition subject, what questions would you put on the paper?

To match the standard of other subjects, you'd have to go in to the science of fitness and nutrition which as I said is far too specific for the LC. Questions like "How exactly does a calorie deficit lead to weight loss?" or "How do different types of exercise lead to physical changes in muscle? Compare the effects of cardiovascular and strength training on muscle." would be far beyond the level of LC Biology.

What exactly would you be suggesting?

Still, the overall structure of second-level education is massively flawed. They're assessing your overall intelligence based on unreliable results.

It's not *that* flawed. It's not perfect but it's not terrible either. They're not assessing your intelligence either. They're assessing your competency in the subjects you've chosen.

unreggd

Theres plenty. It wouldnt have to be an exam, thats my point, school is all about exams at the moment. It could be a CA subject, which more subjects should be, even partly. Its more about the reiteration of the fundamentals to develop an awareness. Its silly to say 'thats up to the person / common sense'
You dont just pick it out of the air.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

They're not assessing your intelligence either. They're assessing your competency in the subjects you've chosen.

Which ultimately results in a score out of 600 points, with a lower score seen as lower general intelligence

partyatmygaff

unreggd wrote: »

Theres plenty. It wouldnt have to be an exam, thats my point, school is all about exams at the moment. It could be a CA subject, which more subjects should be, even partly. Its more about the reiteration of the fundamentals to develop an awareness. Its silly to say 'thats up to the person / common sense'
You dont just pick it out of the air.

That sounds great but do you have any ideas on a relatively fair, economical and robust way of examining the subject?

Continuous assessment is a great buzzword often dropped into English and Irish essays(measúnú leanúnach anyone?) as the best solution to "fadhbanna an daoine oige". It's become almost clichéd at this stage with even newspapers joining in on the fun but as of yet I haven't heard a single idea outlining how it could be implemented.

Which ultimately results in a score out of 600 points, with a lower score seen as lower general intelligence

The only observation that I could make is that those who get very high points in the LC could generally be considered intelligent. Those who obtain average scores and below average scores either lack ability/aptitude or are lazy so there's not much that can be reasonably concluded.

If the LC was actually designed to be an intelligence test, i'd say it's much better at accurately identifying above average intelligence than identifying below average intelligence.

nskelton

Obviously the LC has it flaws, but a good point my friend made was it gives you a fantastic groundwork in 7+ subjects which most people our age wouldn't even come close to. Is that not true?

fkt

It was nice of them to test our knowledge of what's in a pack of cards. Essential information which will add plenty of value to my intelect.

K_1

RedTexan wrote: »

Why do you think that? (For the questions you think will be marked down this year)

Consensus seems to be that they were the most difficult ones, so chances are they'll ease the scheme slightly. Especially Q8.

Namlub

fkt wrote: »

It was nice of them to test our knowledge of what's in a pack of cards. Essential information which will add plenty of value to my intelect.

That kind of thing always comes up for probability tbf, and it's still probably more useful in term of real life than something like calculus...

reznov

Calculus is one of the most useful applications of mathematics. It was one of the greatest mathematical developments in history.

Siobhnk

I know the lc has its flaws, but there's no point getting yourself worked up over it when we're halfway through it, and some nearly finished.

dovahkiin

It is not the leaving cert's job to teach you these so called 'life skills', up to a certain point this is the responsibility of your parents then around this age when you become a big boy or girl it falls on you, the leaving cert is only a measure of hard work, it's not an intelligence test or an aptitude test but a measure of how much you can apply yourself to a set task. Anyone who needs a nutrition class to tell them eating koka noodles and drinking pepsi is a bad idea probably can't be saved anyway.

English paper 2 last week was a prime example, no matter how intelligent or how good at english you thought were it didn't matter, the people who did well were the people who had it in them to learn five poets.

<snip>

I suggest you learn from your recent holiday and moderate your tone, unless you're itching for another one.

R.

reznov

5 poets aren't even a lot to learn. You need basically three poems for in depth discussion, a fourth more general and mpjust mention the others.

Dwellingdweller

Siobhnk wrote: »

I know the lc has its flaws, but there's no point getting yourself worked up over it when we're halfway through it, and some nearly finished.

Au contraire mon frere. Without calculus, we'd have have hardly any of the modern developments we take for granted. It's one of the things that has liberated us from, well, filth basically. And it's actually interesting, it's one of the only maths topics on the LC course that's really really fascinating IMO. When you get into engineering and uni level maths, calculus comes into everything. every. thing. It's the study of change, and every other maths system (trigonometry, geometry, area and volume, whatever) is limited to describing states at one point in time, until calculus comes into the picture. Calculus can describe how something changes and grows over time, it's not static. Therein lies the beauty of it.*

*I'm doing OL maths. :P But I still find maths very interesting, it's just that the amount of work in HL for the LC was a bit too much for me.

Amirani

Dwellingdweller wrote: »

Au contraire mon frere. Without calculus, we'd have have hardly any of the modern developments we take for granted. It's one of the things that has liberated us from, well, filth basically. And it's actually interesting, it's one of the only maths topics on the LC course that's really really fascinating IMO. When you get into engineering and uni level maths, calculus comes into everything. every. thing. It's the study of change, and every other maths system (trigonometry, geometry, area and volume, whatever) is limited to describing states at one point in time, until calculus comes into the picture. Calculus can describe how something changes and grows over time, it's not static. Therein lies the beauty of it.*

*I'm doing OL maths. :P But I still find maths very interesting, it's just that the amount of work in HL for the LC was a bit too much for me.

In essence the SEC is striving to create a system where people like yourself can do better. Not enough people at presence have an appreciation of the relevancy or application of their Leaving Cert subjects, particularly maths. Project Maths is an attempt to change that.

Knowing how to differentiate and integrate is essentially useless unless you know when to apply them. Knowing when to apply them involves more than finding the relevant section in the exam paper.

dovahkiin

<snip>

I suggest you learn from your recent holiday and moderate your tone, unless you're itching for another one.

R.

I wasn't going to bother then you had to go sign your name like a twat, if the use of the word pathetic is too hardcore I was never going to last long here anyway. And if you have a funny comeback this time at least have the common decency to let me reply to it first.

Love Holidays

Get ****ed

D.