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The leaving cert system is not only unfair, it's illogical and it's getting worse.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    dovahkiin wrote: »
    I wasn't going to bother then you had to go sign your name like a twat, if the use of the word pathetic is too hardcore I was never going to last long here anyway. And if you have a funny comeback this time at least have the common decency to let me reply to it first.

    Love Holidays

    Get ****ed

    D.
    From someone who hadn't been banned last week for his aggressive / trolling style of posting, I have no doubt it would have been let slide.

    Bye now.

    signed:

    The Twat


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭Siobhnk


    @dwellingdweller I take it you quoted the wrong comment? My sleepy LC brain had gotten me all confused :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,576 ✭✭✭Coeurdepirate


    From someone who hadn't been banned last week for his aggressive / trolling style of posting, I have no doubt it would have been let slide.

    Bye now.

    signed:

    The Twat

    Randy, if I had one I'd let you flick my twat any time you want ;)


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That sounds great but do you have any ideas on a relatively fair, economical and robust way of examining the subject?

    Continuous assessment is a great buzzword often dropped into English and Irish essays(measúnú leanúnach anyone?) as the best solution to "fadhbanna an daoine oige". It's become almost clichéd at this stage with even newspapers joining in on the fun but as of yet I haven't heard a single idea outlining how it could be implemented.

    And what I find funny is that the same people who suggest more spread out assessments are the same who are almost passing out for each Oral, panicking about labwork etc. etc. How having even more deadlines for them to fuss about would help is something I don't understand.

    As for the project maths reference in the OP, if a change in a course causes someone to meltdown and fail the problem lies with the candidate. The new course most certainly is not harder than the old one. If worrying about some people panicking because of the unknown is a good enough reason to never change anything then we'll never get very far.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    The new course most certainly is not harder than the old one. If worrying about some people panicking because of the unknown is a good enough reason to never change anything then we'll never get very far.

    Many Leaving Cert Students were annoyed at the fact that Project Maths was introduced in the middle of their LC's, when they were used to doing Maths the way it was. I was annoyed at that myself, I didn't necessarily find the new course harder, but I was already well used to the old way of doing Maths. What was even more annoying was the change in the Irish orals - it's now worth 40% of the final result rather than the traditional 25%, which is unfair to timid students who find oral exams awkward and nerve-wracking and who are better suited to essays, comprehensions, letters etc.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭Monsieur Folie


    The fact remains that regardless of whether the course is easier or harder, it was sprung on Leaving Cert students when they were already accustomed to the old system. This is the kind of course that should be introduced in first year. My maths scores have suffered with this new course, I went from being an A1 maths student to struggling to turn C's into B's and sometimes worse. The course is billed as student friendly but it's far from it, the few questions I've seen in books and past papers are often ambiguous and confusing, as opposed to before where they were at least somewhat clearly phrased.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26 MatthewRud


    Alqua wrote: »
    Sorry to pull a quote from a few pages back! The thing about Germany though, is that people don't usually go straight from school to college like we do in Ireland. I'm not saying that the SEC or the department are doing a good job, but as long as the Leaving Cert remains a college entry exam it's difficult for it to be an effective exam in its own right or have much educational value.

    Yes steps can be taken to improve this, but as we've seen they have to be taken very slowly. As long as the points race and the 'THIS DECIDES YOUR FUTURE' pressure that's put on students survive, it will be difficult to change the system. The whole culture of hype (which the media doesn't help) needs to be challenged. In fairness it's difficult to talk about a broad education syllabus when CAO points are foremost on people's minds, yet we can't blame students/teachers for doing the best they can with what they have.
    Sorry, bit of a ramble there!

    To all ye LC'ers, yes it's crap, but everyone has gone through it and out the other side and ye will be no different! You will nearly always do better in the end than you think you did on the day. Remember, no matter what you want to do, there is always a way to get there! LC or CAO 2012 is not going to decide the path of anyone's life! For now chin up, and enjoy the summer - you're nearly free! :)

    What a brilliant summary of my own feelings. The "points race" state of mind is ridiculous, and it has been going on far too long. Now that they've decided to cut out rote learning, people are panicking that they aren't going to get the points they should have. It's all about the points. People getting sick before exams with nerves, worried that they won't get their course and there lives will forever pay the price. It is crazy! That is much too much pressure!

    It isn't reinforced that there are other ways to go about achieving the same (if not similar) goals. There isn't always one path into a specific career. In this country, we are almost brainwashed into the points mentality from an early age. It is a direct result of the pressures created by the older generations; those who themselves didn't get an education to our standard and therefore value it so highly. And that is fine, but the pressure to become "the best" has gone too far. Especially this pressure to do the best courses just because they are the ones that require 'high points', just for bragging rights. Fair enough to those who genuinely want to do them, but the amount of times I've heard a smart person tell me they want to do medicine simply because "their parents think they should" or "because they got the points" is mental.

    I feel lucky in that I actually don't need to rely on my LC. I'm 18 and in 3 years I've become a highly proficient web developer (self taught) and at the moment I make a living equivalent to that of my teachers. I know I am one of few, but in all honesty there is nothing stopping someone with a similar problem-solving ability to me from doing the same. Imagine if basic web design & development was an LC subject? Some of us could be out of education and earning a good living by the end of 6th year. But fear of going against the system, and the constant strain of having to perform in the LC deter many, which is choking hidden talents (potential or realized). And I'll admit, I'm bloody terrified being so relaxed during these exams, because I'm going against all of what has been ingrained into my mindset since day one. And at that, I'll still get 400+ points, because I still want to do well whilst maintaining my workload, but again, it's scary when you think about it. I completely understand why such feelings would completely stop thousands of students from doing the same. Which isn't a good way to be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Dapics


    MatthewRud wrote: »
    What a brilliant summary of my own feelings. The "points race" state of mind is ridiculous, and it has been going on far too long. Now that they've decided to cut out rote learning, people are panicking that they aren't going to get the points they should have. It's all about the points. People getting sick before exams with nerves, worried that they won't get their course and there lives will forever pay the price. It is crazy! That is much too much pressure!

    It isn't reinforced that there are other ways to go about achieving the same (if not similar) goals. There isn't always one path into a specific career. In this country, we are almost brainwashed into the points mentality from an early age. It is a direct result of the pressures created by the older generations; those who themselves didn't get an education to our standard and therefore value it so highly. And that is fine, but the pressure to become "the best" has gone too far. Especially this pressure to do the best courses just because they are the ones that require 'high points', just for bragging rights. Fair enough to those who genuinely want to do them, but the amount of times I've heard a smart person tell me they want to do medicine simply because "their parents think they should" or "because they got the points" is mental.

    I feel lucky in that I actually don't need to rely on my LC. I'm 18 and in 3 years I've become a highly proficient web developer (self taught) and at the moment I make a living equivalent to that of my teachers. I know I am one of few, but in all honesty there is nothing stopping someone with a similar problem-solving ability to me from doing the same. Imagine if basic web design & development was an LC subject? Some of us could be out of education and earning a good living by the end of 6th year. But fear of going against the system, and the constant strain of having to perform in the LC deter many, which is choking hidden talents (potential or realized). And I'll admit, I'm bloody terrified being so relaxed during these exams, because I'm going against all of what has been ingrained into my mindset since day one. And at that, I'll still get 400+ points, because I still want to do well whilst maintaining my workload, but again, it's scary when you think about it. I completely understand why such feelings would completely stop thousands of students from doing the same. Which isn't a good way to be.


    Matthew Man.... I assume when the leaving is done, I'l see you prawning around Mullaghmore, down sligo direction during the Summer? :cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 26 MatthewRud


    Dapics wrote: »
    Matthew Man.... I assume when the leaving is done, I'l see you prawning around Mullaghmore, down sligo direction during the Summer? :cool:

    Potentially haha. Based in Dublin these days. Holiday to be had after these exams as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭jumpguy


    Has everyone here forgotten that everyone sits the same paper? It doesn't matter if last year's paper was easier, or the paper 10 years ago, all that matters is the paper you sat. Grade inflation means nothing, at the end of the day there will be the same amount of people going to whatever course in college (unless the college changes that!)

    If you were shocked by a difficult paper, then chances are tens of thousands of other students were, and then had to do their best on the paper the same way you had. The bell-curve will always exist, the marking scheme will compensate, even if everyone does terrible.

    And if somebody doesn't do terrible, learned the syllabus properly and didn't base ALL their preparation on predictions, then can you say they didn't deserve the best grades more than you did?

    The worst thing about predictability is that it's bred a lot of, quite frankly, whiners. Students now go into the exam expecting to not have to use the thinking faculty of their brain. If the exam doesn't go anything less than perfect, everyone loses their head and it's the SEC's fault, the government's fault, the education system's fault, their school's fault, their teacher's fault, but never their own fault.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17 KR1995


    The system is abusing the students and the hard workers
    they're gonna fuc* it up more next year ..
    For us new comers... we are indeed in big shi*...

    Thanks for the summary, it has everything i wanted to say..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    KR1995 wrote: »
    The system is abusing the students and the hard workers
    No it's not. It's catching out the lazy and the chronic complainers.
    they're gonna fuc* it up more next year ..
    For us new comers... we are indeed in big shi*...
    You're only in big sh1t if you expected to be able to rely on predictions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 KR1995


    No it's not. It's catching out the lazy and the chronic complainers.

    You're only in big sh1t if you expected to be able to rely on predictions.


    say what ever u want, thats my point of view


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    KR1995 wrote: »
    say what ever u want, thats my point of view
    Fine, but if you're going to make it out that the SEC are "abusing" students and are out to get them it really behooves you to explain how.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 KR1995


    Fine, but if you're going to make it out that the SEC are "abusing" students and are out to get them it really behooves you to explain how.

    OK! If you think they are not abusing the students by bringing in this project maths thingy in out of the blues, then what is your explanation.

    Their intension says that this syllabus is student friendly, but has it been friendly to the majority of the present / pass leaving cert students who had sat the PM papers.

    Just my curiosity, are you a current 5th or 6th year or are you already a college student? Have you experience the pain we're going through with this PM? We are working our hardest to get as much points as possible, and this project maths has been a big time pull down to many people. The number of people going to college will decrease big time.. as many WILL fail the maths paper.

    Friend of mine sat her leaving cert this year, she said that the paper 2 was awful.. what you're been asked by them is completely different from the way you're taught in school...

    Another friend of mine who studies maths and physics in college checked the paper, he said that some of those questions were impossible for leaving cert students... they're were taught at lc standard and some of the question was like college standard, and FYI, lc maths is not up to scratch compare to college maths. (presume you know this already..) ---- thats just expecting us to know something we were never taught of... which i believe not that many people have the intelligence to make up something on the spot and coincidently got the correct answer.

    Well, Maybe the word abuse is a bit too strong, but it's no word of a lie that this project maths is more of something disadvantage to a student's future rather than advantage... at least for the mean time it's like this. And lucky enough, the current 6th years have the old syllabus as their Paper 1 which if they did well in it, they are guaranteed a pass... but what about us, the coming 6th years... we dont have a big chance of doing well as we were supposed to/ or PASSING when 5/6 of our paper is the new project maths course and for the fact that we arent even taught properly or more likely the materials they supply is basically wrong - there isnt even an actual book... they're all supplements and many of them are WRONG!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    KR1995 wrote: »
    OK! If you think they are not abusing the students by bringing in this project maths thingy in out of the blues, then what is your explanation.
    Explanation for what? How is a syllabus change abuse?
    Just my curiosity, are you a current 5th or 6th year or are you already a college student? Have you experience the pain we're going through with this PM? We are working our hardest to get as much points as possible, and this project maths has been a big time pull down to many people.
    First year college so the LC is still quite fresh in my mind. The experience is no different. I had a particular Maths course and I studied for it. You had a particular Maths course and you studied for it.

    I've had a look at the Project Maths papers and there's nothing on it that would suggest it's more difficult than the old syllabus. It's different but that doesn't make it any more difficult.
    The number of people going to college will decrease big time.. as many WILL fail the maths paper.
    I highly doubt it. Unless there was something extremely off about the paper that meant people couldn't even begin to attempt some questions then the same proportion of people will get As and Bs as per usual. Considering there are 25 extra points for HL, I don't think people who sat HL Maths this year are getting a raw deal at all.
    Friend of mine sat her leaving cert this year, she said that the paper 2 was awful.. what you're been asked by them is completely different from the way you're taught in school...
    Then that is a failing of her teacher, not the exam. The teacher is given the syllabus and is expected to teach what is required.
    Another friend of mine who studies maths and physics in college checked the paper, he said that some of those questions were impossible for leaving cert students... they're were taught at lc standard and some of the question was like college standard, and FYI, lc maths is not up to scratch compare to college maths. (presume you know this already..) ----
    What is "LC standard" and how is this college student meant to ascertain "LC standard" considering he/she was only ever a student during the days of the old syllabus?

    The only reason they think the standard has been raised is because the topics now on Maths Paper II were usually only covered at university level. It doesn't mean those topics are any harder, your friend is probably making the assumption that the topics are difficult because they didn't do them during their LC and only started taking it after they started college.
    thats just expecting us to know something we were never taught of... which i believe not that many people have the intelligence to make up something on the spot and coincidently got the correct answer.
    I really don't see what's so horrible about Project Maths. Just because the exam now tries to closely relate Maths to real life situations and tries to get students to engage with the questions a bit more doesn't make the exam any more difficult.
    Well, Maybe the word abuse is a bit too strong, but it's no word of a lie that this project maths is more of something disadvantage to a student's future rather than advantage... at least for the mean time it's like this.
    For some students, yes but not for the reasons you think. For people who want to go on to do Engineering or similar courses the old syllabus would have been much more useful.
    And lucky enough, the current 6th years have the old syllabus as their Paper 1 which if they did well in it, they are guaranteed a pass... but what about us, the coming 6th years... we dont have a big chance of doing well as we were supposed to/ or PASSING when 5/6 of our paper is the new project maths course and for the fact that we arent even taught properly or more likely the materials they supply is basically wrong - there isnt even an actual book... they're all supplements and many of them are WRONG!
    You're all in the exact same position as each other. Unless there is a secret school which uses exclusive books, no one is really at a disadvantage. For you incoming sixth years, there's nothing unfair about project maths. It's certainly an annoying exam but when it comes to the CAO and college entry, it won't make any tangible difference.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 KR1995


    Explanation for what? How is a syllabus change abuse?

    as in why they changed the new syllabus and started with seniors and not just 1st years. It's unfair...
    First year college so the LC is still quite fresh in my mind. The experience is no different. I had a particular Maths course and I studied for it. You had a particular Maths course and you studied for it.
    Lucky indeed..
    and yes, you had a particular maths course which was reviewed over and over again to make sure there wasn't any mistakes in it. But for my course, it's new and it has a lot of mistakes... we're the laboratory rat used to do the experiments... T^T lucky enough, you'd survive. If not, prepare to die
    I've had a look at the Project Maths papers and there's nothing on it that would suggest it's more difficult than the old syllabus. It's different but that doesn't make it any more difficult.
    A good few parts of PM is tougher than the old papers.. The course itself is a huge deduction from the old syllabus which is a pro (i suppose...) but the way it phrases the questions... it's tricky (probably's the word)
    and with the old syllabus, yous were asked with very straight forward phrasings.
    I think it's the phrasings that catches many people out...
    the new maths syllabus... it's like an english paper.
    and for foreign students who doesnt have a great fluency in english... we're totally screwed..
    I highly doubt it. Unless there was something extremely off about the paper that meant people couldn't even begin to attempt some questions then the same proportion of people will get As and Bs as per usual. Considering there are 25 extra points for HL, I don't think people who sat HL Maths this year are getting a raw deal at all.
    Well... I was told by ones who had experiences in them... suppose it's the way the phrasings had caught many people out. and yup... like i mentioned before hand, lc students this year still have the old paper to back it up, which questions arent asked as confusing as the paper 2.
    also, with the new pm course... they are expecting us to know stuff from the JC pm syllabus which for me, i haven't got a notion as i was taught the old syllabus for my JC last year.
    But that 25 extra points only goes for the students who pass the paper. fail maths fail entire leaving cert.. we get 0
    Then that is a failing of her teacher, not the exam. The teacher is given the syllabus and is expected to teach what is required.
    I wont be complaining about the teacher, it's not the exams, it's just the syllabus itself as a whole and the books they're supplying..
    What is "LC standard" and how is this college student meant to ascertain "LC standard" considering he/she was only ever a student during the days of the old syllabus?

    I dont do maths in college nor i'm looking to get a Master/PhD degree in it like him or anything to do with it so i don't know.. He gives grinds, helps in the maths supports center which in his college they help the lc students from local secondary schools. And he knows how the syllabus are like for both old and new maths courses ( well enough that he can explain to them ).. some questions they ask on the paper he said arent even covered in either old or new syllabus.. and a college student like him.. he said he mightn't be able to think on the spot either if he was in the exams with the limited time... (and let me put a note on it, Maths is his strongest subject, A1 in his LC maths and applied maths... studies pure maths i think, well it's more like it's part of his course.)
    The only reason they think the standard has been raised is because the topics now on Maths Paper II were usually only covered at university level. It doesn't mean those topics are any harder, your friend is probably making the assumption that the topics are difficult because they didn't do them during their LC and only started taking it after they started college.

    Erm... What im aware of is that they had a massive deduction on the calculus and algerbra sections and what i was told is that thats a very important part of college maths. A lot of it isn't raising standards but phrasing it confusingly. I don't think the topic itself is hard... we follow the text book and do the questions in the book, no problemo.. but then go and find a phrase 3 paper... it's completely different.
    Maybe anybody, but i don't think he'd do that.. he isnt the type of guy that jumps to assumptions and conclusions if he didnt have any facts or reasons to back him up kinda thing...
    I really don't see what's so horrible about Project Maths. Just because the exam now tries to closely relate Maths to real life situations and tries to get students to engage with the questions a bit more doesn't make the exam any more difficult.

    It's just too much words... confusing
    it's like basically doing an english paper rather than maths..
    -give reasons why...
    -deffintions...
    - from your course work, a practical was done to measure......

    my maths teacher calls it Minglish not maths anymore hahaha

    in this country, the education system don't teach you how to think and engage with the question, people have no basics.
    The way education is done here is,
    ok, u have a lc coming up, u learn off ALL the needed infos on the book and practice the pps.. if u can't find the answer, marking schemes!!! You're prepared for the exams... but you were never taught how to think on the spot if a particular type of question came up.
    People dont know how to think and solve questions... and this does not just apply for LC only.but we cant blame ourselves because we weren't taught this way.. how amazing in this country we tend to get stuff like the log table and calculators.... in many other countries... they dont have that much freedom and that is one of the cause for people in countries with such freedom in education to become lazy and half arsed attitude towards education. It's a pity..
    For some students, yes but not for the reasons you think. For people who want to go on to do Engineering or similar courses the old syllabus would have been much more useful.

    yes, thats also one of the reasons.. the deduction of the syllabus will cause people who will be doing maths in college having quite a tough time as they had removed a lot of the stuff that'd useful in future for college.
    You're all in the exact same position as each other. Unless there is a secret school which uses exclusive books, no one is really at a disadvantage. For you incoming sixth years, there's nothing unfair about project maths. It's certainly an annoying exam but when it comes to the CAO and college entry, it won't make any tangible difference.
    we as a whole are at a disadvantage. Our teachers has no experiences, books given wrong methods... we as a whole is in a sort of bad position.. and it will affect our points. oh and the fact there's barely any past papers to look at.. and the samples are just useless.
    Well.. I will put my head down and work hard for this subject especially... Hope i'd somehow manage to pass it -.-


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 KR1995


    jumpguy wrote: »
    Has everyone here forgotten that everyone sits the same paper? It doesn't matter if last year's paper was easier, or the paper 10 years ago, all that matters is the paper you sat. Grade inflation means nothing, at the end of the day there will be the same amount of people going to whatever course in college (unless the college changes that!)

    If you were shocked by a difficult paper, then chances are tens of thousands of other students were, and then had to do their best on the paper the same way you had. The bell-curve will always exist, the marking scheme will compensate, even if everyone does terrible.

    And if somebody doesn't do terrible, learned the syllabus properly and didn't base ALL their preparation on predictions, then can you say they didn't deserve the best grades more than you did?

    The worst thing about predictability is that it's bred a lot of, quite frankly, whiners. Students now go into the exam expecting to not have to use the thinking faculty of their brain. If the exam doesn't go anything less than perfect, everyone loses their head and it's the SEC's fault, the government's fault, the education system's fault, their school's fault, their teacher's fault, but never their own fault.


    STRONGLY AGREE :D:D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 921 ✭✭✭reznov


    Project Maths is a reform that was implemented incorrectly and with importunity. Yes, the syllabus reads as though a doddle in contrast to old paper two, but the structure and style of questions is greatly different. It is not that it is difficult, but many teachers remain in "old paper two" mode. Project Maths questions are ambiguous, not concrete numbers. In school Maths is all about concrete numbers and outcomes and to an insignificant extent, logical deductions based on figures.

    The SEC should have began with 1st years - not even JCs. It would be unfair to JCs. A brand new exam requires a renewed approach to preparation. Unfair to plop a new syllabus on 6th years and instruct them to sit exams. I'm all for use of general knowledge, but let's keep it at a less ambiguous level.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 921 ✭✭✭reznov


    Project Maths books are a rushed abomination. Active Maths recommends finding the median of a stem and leaf diagram through crossing out numbers.
    Really? There is a simple formula, but of course not included. What sane person would teach one to CROSS OUT numbers from a stem and leaf to find a median?

    The questions are also adapted from older books, maintaining the a,b,c style of old paper two even though a new exam is in place. Sample papers were practically irrelevant and they removed a trigonometry section in 2012, merging it into one big geometry question.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 921 ✭✭✭reznov


    No it's not. It's catching out the lazy and the chronic complainers.

    You're only in big sh1t if you expected to be able to rely on predictions.

    I didn't rely on predictions and did poorly in project Maths paper. Learned all defininitions and information in the book coming into the exam. Solved all sample papers, some even twice.
    Not everyone relies on "predictions" which are irrelevant for most subjects.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭finality


    reznov wrote: »
    I didn't rely on predictions and did poorly in project Maths paper. Learned all defininitions and information in the book coming into the exam. Solved all sample papers, some even twice.
    Not everyone relies on "predictions" which are irrelevant for most subjects.

    Same here. Questions 1 to 7 were fair enough I suppose, but I do think Q8 was unfair. The exam should test methods we've learnt to use, but with a couple of twists to make the questions more difficult. Question 8 did not do that, it required the use of methods we had never encountered before. And ok, I wouldn't be complaining if it was worth a small percentage of the marks, but not including the first part of the question, it was worth about a FIFTH of the paper. 20% of the paper for a type of question we had never come close to covering? That's pretty unfair to me.

    Also, the books are not teaching project maths. The questions in them are still the old style, which ask you to use the methods you've been taught. I've done every question in both project maths supplement books, and there was absolutely no indication of anything like question 8.

    This maths course is not valuing knowledge of maths, it gives ridiculous amounts of marks for questions the course doesn't cover.


  • Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭FaoiSin


    I knew most of the 300ish pages in my Text Book for Project Maths and I would say about 10 pages at most could be applied in that exam. I have also read the syllabus multiple times throughout the year.

    Question 8 this year could probably be considered a "3D Problem" but I've never seen anything like it before in my life and I only got the first part.

    Do you know how patronizing it is to have someone who did the old course come in and say "Oh I've looked at the papers and they're grand"? I spent the majority of the year trying to teach myself Maths because my teacher hasn't the slightest idea how to teach it either. They give little to no resources and a lazy Sample Paper which was identical to one they made 2 years ago. The same Sample Paper wasn't even representative of what we were given on the day.

    Overall the hours and hours I put into Maths have been a complete waste of time because they have notions of some new Maths system which has cost millions and makes little to no improvements.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    I knew most of the 300ish pages in my Text Book for Project Maths and I would say about 10 pages at most could be applied in that exam. I have also read the syllabus multiple times throughout the year.

    Question 8 this year could probably be considered a "3D Problem" but I've never seen anything like it before in my life and I only got the first part.
    People who sat last year's paper I suffered in more or less the exact same way. Those obscure/odd questions weren't just bad for you, they were bad for nearly everyone.
    Do you know how patronizing it is to have someone who did the old course come in and say "Oh I've looked at the papers and they're grand"? I spent the majority of the year trying to teach myself Maths because my teacher hasn't the slightest idea how to teach it either. They give little to no resources and a lazy Sample Paper which was identical to one they made 2 years ago. The same Sample Paper wasn't even representative of what we were given on the day.
    Then that isn't really a failing of the exam as much as it is a failing of your teacher.
    Overall the hours and hours I put into Maths have been a complete waste of time because they have notions of some new Maths system which has cost millions and makes little to no improvements.
    I remember saying the exact same thing (Almost word for word) last year.
    It was annoying then and even a year on, I'm still mildly annoyed by it but at the end of the day it didn't make a massive difference to my life.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 921 ✭✭✭reznov


    The teachers are a part of the education process. Quality inspections on teachers should be performed if they're not up to par. Not just introducing new exams.


    And I agre YeahFaoiSin, I'd probably be better off not studying whatsoever coming into the exam.


  • Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭FaoiSin


    Yeah I'm sorry for my rant partyatmygaff I'm just frustrated.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭finality


    reznov wrote: »
    The teachers are a part of the education process. Quality inspections on teachers should be performed if they're not up to par. Not just introducing new exams.


    And I agre YeahFaoiSin, I'd probably be better off not studying whatsoever coming into the exam.

    I agree with this too. I spent 20 hours over the weekend studying project maths to make sure I had revised everything, then the tiniest amount of the course is on the paper with 20% for something the course doesn't cover.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    reznov wrote: »
    The teachers are a part of the education process. Quality inspections on teachers should be performed if they're not up to par. Not just introducing new exams.
    I suggested the same thing over here on the teaching forum. It's amazing how little feedback students can give about the quality of their teachers.
    Yeah I'm sorry for my rant partyatmygaff I'm just frustrated.
    I know the feeling. It's terrible and you'll be constantly worried until August but just remember that the marking scheme will probably account for the extreme difficulty of the question and your overall grade won't be hugely affected. Nearly every single person was pleasantly surprised last year with their Maths result.


  • Registered Users Posts: 623 ✭✭✭smeal


    I'm not disagreeing with anyone on this who claims the Leaving Cert is getting harder and is becoming increasingly unfair on students as it is HOWEVER, everyone knows this year had a record number of students applying to CAO. This year will see more mature students, more British students due to an increase in their fees and more degree-holding students returning to undergraduate degrees. I think the SEC has definitely recognised this in respect of making the papers. College places are becoming increasingly competitive especially in the sciences- I think the SEC is preparing students for the harsh reality of some of these courses. Example, I'm in DCU and know people who did science this year only to drop out by christmas due to the course's difficulty like some people were getting B's/C's in their LC science subjects last year and they basically just were not fit for the course. I never did Biology but from hearing the disappointment of the paper yesterday I feel my theory could be true :S. The points system in this country is disgusting though, like students last year making their points target on Results day only to find the following Monday that their course has increased by 40+ points in some colleges. How are students meant to even begin to prepare for this? "Oh I need 400 points in my course but I'll probably need to aim towards 500 JUST INCASE the points go up", like its an outrage, students have no sense of security gearing towards exams! I could spend all day talking about Project Maths but I've better things to be at. It's a dispicable course though. Since Junior Infants students have learned maths from a different perspective. Suddenly the system expects students to develop a new way to learn maths in a physically orientated way in the space of 2 years. A joke! The course should have been introduced slowly years ago to prepare students for a project based course.
    One thing I will say though from looking at newspaper articles/ boards.ie comments in respect of this years difficult English paper (aaaand I know I'm gunna have some haters for saying this) is that students are becoming increasingly reliant on predictions. Predictions are fair enough, we've all looked for them, but hearing that some students who call themselves "A" students all year in the subject prepare themselves by walking into that exam studying just 2 poets and maybe one topic on Hamlet just because they seen everyone else talking about it online? And then they cry about it over the internet and write letters to the SEC claiming the paper was unfair. Goodluck trying to pass college/any future exams if they're gunna adapt that attitude.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭finality


    smeal wrote: »
    The points system in this country is disgusting though, like students last year making their points target on Results day only to find the following Monday that their course has increased by 40+ points in some colleges. How are students meant to even begin to prepare for this? "Oh I need 400 points in my course but I'll probably need to aim towards 500 JUST INCASE the points go up", like its an outrage, students have no sense of security gearing towards exams!

    I agree with most of the rest of your post but the points system is supply and demand. The points aren't randomly increased for arbitrary reasons, and students know that past points for courses are just a rough indication of what they could be the next year.

    Students go into exams and do their best, I certainly hope nobody thinks "oh I only need a D for my course so I'll answer half the questions and leave after an hour".

    There can only be so many places in a course, and while the points system isn't ideal and could be improved in several ways, the fact of the matter is that not everyone can get their first choice.


This discussion has been closed.
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