Solicitors Fees

boo3000

Hi just a question here, a friend of mine is in a situation where they went about taking a court case in the high court, they consulted a solicitor and told the solicitor that they had very little money at present. The solicitor agreed to take the case on the basis that they would only be asked to cover cost outlays such as vat, stationary expenses etc. After a certain length of time the solicitor has turned around and said they now can't take the case any further without a very large up front payment, i don't know what is happening at present but because my friend is broke there now worried that the solicitor will look for fees over the last year and i think this is actually the case. Im not looking for legal advice here but how can this be legal? My friend would never have even considered a case if there was a question of money up front, it now looks like there being trapped into paying big legal fees. WTF!

dazza21ie

High Court litigation is very expensive. In most cases even the outlays usually add up to many thousands. Solicitors also may have to engage other professionals such as barristers and expert witnesses which add further fees and most solicitors would only engage them if they were satified that they have or will have money to pay them. Most solicitors will ask for money in advance depending on the type of the case.

boo3000

That's fair enough, but can they turn around then and start charging for work done up until now. I appreciate that the solicitor probably has done work but there would have been no work to do if they had explained from day one the costs involved!

Paulw

boo3000 wrote: »

That's fair enough, but can they turn around then and start charging for work done up until now.

Of course they can charge for work done up until now. They have already done work and deserve to be paid.

I find it hard to believe that any solicitor would have taken the case without explaining that it would be a long and expensive process.

boo3000

Well there you are, i don't know all the details of the case but i know my friend is honest and the solicitor would have known they were unemployed and had no money. I think they figured my friend had an open and shut case and then figured it was going to be more complicated. It looks to me like they might have been making work for themselves tho in which case i for one don't think they have any right to look for money.

Milk & Honey

boo3000 wrote: »

Hi just a question here, a friend of mine is in a situation where they went about taking a court case in the high court, they consulted a solicitor and told the solicitor that they had very little money at present. The solicitor agreed to take the case on the basis that they would only be asked to cover cost outlays such as vat, stationary expenses etc. After a certain length of time the solicitor has turned around and said they now can't take the case any further without a very large up front payment, i don't know what is happening at present but because my friend is broke there now worried that the solicitor will look for fees over the last year and i think this is actually the case. Im not looking for legal advice here but how can this be legal? My friend would never have even considered a case if there was a question of money up front, it now looks like there being trapped into paying big legal fees. WTF!

He should approach another solicitor and get the file moved on an undertaking to pay the first solicitor when the case concludes.

boo3000

I don't now if she can find another solicitor, if she is gonna be asked for money up front for barrister's etc it looks like the case is dead. to me this just reeks of everything bad that's said about solicitors.

McCrack

boo3000 it would seem you don't really or actually know the facts of this situation.

Outlays such are VAT and stationary are not outlays that a solicitor would ask a client to pay up during the currency of a litigation matter so your comment that this reeks of what is bad (in some peoples minds) about solicitors is wrong.

Milk and Honey has given a practical alternative although the existing solicitor is under no obligation to transfer the file until all outlays are discharged.

What is the money the solicitor is asking for? Outlays such as expert reports are expensive, that's not the solicitors fault. Such outlays are however recoverable back to the client upon the successful conclusion of the case.

boo3000

McCrack I half expected a response like yours knowing a lot of people who work in the legal field hang out here. your jumping to conclusions, you don't know that the solicitor didn't ask my friend for payment for vat stationary etc just because you claim it's not normal.
I think (and i am not sure on this but let's continue this as a hypothetical discussion) the solicitor is asking for money for work they have done which makes up a lot of the charge and a certain amount for barristers fees. My friend's point is that this work would never have happened had the solicitor been upfront from day one.
you can chose not to believe that this is what happened or not, but what is to stop a solicitor from doing this. Let's say business is quite, not much happening, some schmuck (im mad about my friend but she is a schmuck) walks in off the street for a consultation. The solicitor promises the sun moon and stars with minimal outlay and then says the case can go no further without you paying me for all the work ive now done? Chases down said schmuck for ten-twenty grand, why not?

McCrack

A lot of people in the legal field do hang out here and they are ones who volunteer their knowledge and experience.

I'd suggest you get the facts and then come back and we can you some meaningful comment because at the moment your description and assertions are not helpful.

And I can tell you for definite that no service provider asks a customer/client for VAT in isolation. VAT is chargeable on the fee. It's payable with the fee and it's not an outlay.

boo3000

Im sorry I didn't think this was a place for free legal advice but for debate and discussion, im not doubting that there are a great many very honest and very helpful people working in the legal field. Im questioning whether or not this situation can occur. I said i expected a comment like yours, not for everyone to comment like this.
It would seem to my there is very little to stop some solicitors from acting unethically, as in my question. It would also appear to me that there is little effort in general from those who work in the legal field to prevent this occuring. I stand to be corrected on both counts and i welcome anyone to answer my question.

boo3000

I don't understand, how can you tell me that you know for definite what other solicitors do? Are you telling me you know absoloutly that some solicitors don't behave unethically and what can you be basing this on?

McCrack

Unethical by doing what exactly? Again you are not being clear and are making assertions that with respect don't make sense.

There is absolutely nothing unethical about a solicitor asking for stage payments or asking for outlays from the client to pay for things like expert reports (doctors, engineers reports) which are needed to help prove the case. Unfortunately however those reports are expensive. This of course should have been made clear to the client at the start.

And like I said those outlays are recoverable back to the client if he/she wins the case.

Procrastastudy

boo3000 wrote: »

I don't understand, how can you tell me that you know for definite what other solicitors do? Are you telling me you know absoloutly that some solicitors don't behave unethically and what can you be basing this on?

Common sense?

boo3000

Of course it is not unethical to ask for stage payments or for expenses. I think it is unethical to tell a client your going to take a case to the high court for minimum outlay, lets say a quote of 2000 euros for expenses and to then turn around and say i can't take the case any further without twenty thousand euros up front and by the way you now owe me twenty thousand euros for the work i've been doing. Does this clarify what im saying? I'm not saying by any means that everybody acts like this! Can this situation occur?

boo3000

Common sense! Really? I know 100% whatsoever that no guards, doctors, priests ever do anything wrong and im basing this on common sense!

Procrastastudy

It could - you could always complain to the Law Society if it does. Did your friend get anything in writing? Sounds like at least one party in this has a penchant for going off half cocked. Why don't you find out all the facts first rather than worrying about something that might happen.

jblack

boo3000 wrote: »

! Can this situation occur?

s.68 letter?

Procrastastudy

boo3000 wrote: »

Common sense! Really? I know 100% whatsoever that no guards, doctors, priests ever do anything wrong and im basing this on common sense!

That doesn't make any sense... there are bad apples in every walk of life but what you've posted doesn't ring true - probably, simply, becuase you dont have the facts.

Guards and Priests don't have to worry having a good name for customer service.

Solicitors and Doctors have a professional body that deals with complaints very seriously.

johnnyskeleton

boo3000 wrote: »

I don't understand, how can you tell me that you know for definite what other solicitors do? Are you telling me you know absoloutly that some solicitors don't behave unethically and what can you be basing this on?

I think the person should contact the law society if she feels the solicitor acted unethically.

McCrack

boo3000 wrote: »

Of course it is not unethical to ask for stage payments or for expenses. I think it is unethical to tell a client your going to take a case to the high court for minimum outlay, lets say a quote of 2000 euros for expenses and to then turn around and say i can't take the case any further without twenty thousand euros up front and by the way you now owe me twenty thousand euros for the work i've been doing. Does this clarify what im saying? I'm not saying by any means that everybody acts like this! Can this situation occur?

It can occur if you say it occurred but I can't offer any further comment without knowing the full story.

The only situation I can envisage such a thing happening is where something comes to light that wasn't known at the start that is seriously damaging to the potential success of the case. In other words a material risk has been identified and the solicitor no longer has the comfort of knowing the case will win and therefore he/she will be left out of pocket.

Solicitors are not charities remember, they are a business.

boo3000

I see that my friend is worried, i don't know all the facts and she's not one for sharing what she sees as a private problem, but i do know she is a very honest person and has very little money. Im just trying to find out can this happen and what can be done about it?
I don't think there was any written agreement, but she said at some stage (maybe six months into proceedings) the solicitor sent her a letter saying there would be so much owed at the end of the case for their fees. I the normal run of things nothing wrong there, the problem is the case was never going to come to an end!
Again im not saying that ever solicitor acts like this but A) what is there to stop them from doing so and is the client still liable for these fees, surely in a case like this the client has been mislead?

Procrastastudy

boo3000 wrote: »

I see that my friend is worried, i don't know all the facts and she's not one for sharing what she sees as a private problem, but i do know she is a very honest person and has very little money. Im just trying to find out can this happen and what can be done about it?
I don't think there was any written agreement, but she said at some stage (maybe six months into proceedings) the solicitor sent her a letter saying there would be so much owed at the end of the case for their fees. I the normal run of things nothing wrong there, the problem is the case was never going to come to an end!
Again im not saying that ever solicitor acts like this but A) what is there to stop them from doing so and is the client still liable for these fees, surely in a case like this the client has been mislead?

The afore and frequently mentioned Law Society.

boo3000

Yes solicitors are a business but come on, quite a few businesses behave unethically, and if they're finding work hard to come by why not create some business? And it rings pretty true to me not just for solicitors but across all walks of life. Some people will abuse their position. What will the law society do? And what's an s68 letter?

McCrack

boo3000 wrote: »

Yes solicitors are a business but come on, quite a few businesses behave unethically, and if they're finding work hard to come by why not create some business? And it rings pretty true to me not just for solicitors but across all walks of life. Some people will abuse their position. What will the law society do? And what's an s68 letter?

You are now turning this into a general rant about solicitors. Again you are making assertions without any base. Like I said get the facts and come back here and we can comment.

jblack

All solicitors are obliged under the Solicitors' Acts to furnish the client with a letter setting out the basis of their fee charges.

boo3000

This is by no means a general rant against solicitors, i've mad it clear im talking about a few hypothetical bad apples, can someone please tell me what is there to stop this situation occuring! What will the law society do?

boo3000

jblack and if the solicitor does not provide this letter? Or waits for a year or more to provide one, what then?

johnnyskeleton

boo3000 wrote: »

Yes solicitors are a business but come on, quite a few businesses behave unethically, and if they're finding work hard to come by why not create some business? And it rings pretty true to me not just for solicitors but across all walks of life. Some people will abuse their position. What will the law society do? And what's an s68 letter?

They will investigate to see if there is anything unethical. A s68 sets out the estimated cost of litigation. If they agreed to take on a case on X terms without condition, then those are the terms that they had contractually agreed to. Most solicitors will not enter into an express agreement of that nature, but will do it more on an informal understandig basis, but that would usually be explained carefully to someone.

jblack

boo3000 wrote: »

jblack and if the solicitor does not provide this letter? Or waits for a year or more to provide one, what then?

It will not alone entitle a client to avoid fees, but the solicitor would be in breach of statutory duty and could be in trouble with the Law Society.

How serious will depend on the behaviour of the solicitor, the needs of the client and the specific circumstances of the engagement.

boo3000

sorry but it looks to me like a slap on the wrist, how does the client it this hypothetical case demonstrate that they were mislead?

boo3000

so they would still have to pay for the work created by this lone hypothetical bad solicitor?

jblack

boo3000 wrote: »

sorry but it looks to me like a slap on the wrist, how does the client it this hypothetical case demonstrate that they were mislead?

By discharging the standard civil proofs that there was misrepresentation, a breach of duty or contract. Given the fact that the client has in fact occurred no loss and still has the option of changing solicitor, there is probably no action at all resting against the solicitor.

jblack

boo3000 wrote: »

so they would still have to pay for the work created by this lone hypothetical bad solicitor?

That, as mentioned, will turn on the specific circumstances.

boo3000

that's fair enough, i think though have missed the statute of limitations on their case, but they solicitor can still come looking for money though right? and it's up to my friend to prove she was mislead?

boo3000

Ok you've kinda answered that before i replied but lets say these are the specific circumstances, client goes to solicitor, solicitor says 2,000 costs to take your case the rest i take from your winnings, solicitor turns around a year later and says 20,000 now and 20,000 to take the case further and here's your p68, can the solicitor look for money?

blueythebear

boo3000 wrote: »

that's fair enough, i think though have missed the statute of limitations on their case, but they solicitor can still come looking for money though right? and it's up to my friend to prove she was mislead?

If the solicitor missed the Statute of Limitations and your friend's cause of action is then statute barred, then your friend could potentially sue the solicitor for negligence.

In terms of outlay, a High Court Personal Injury case could easily accumulate the sum of €10 to €20k in outlay alone so the solicitor could be well within his rights to seek that sum. If you need a report from a vocational assessor, actuary, a GP and a specialist, it would not take long to run up that kind of outlay. I don't know what type of case this is but the point is that High Court proceedings are extremely expensive.

If your friend has an issue, bring it up with the Law Society. It is more than a slap on the wrist if found guilty.

ResearchWill

boo3000 wrote: »

Ok you've kinda answered that before i replied but lets say these are the specific circumstances, client goes to solicitor, solicitor says 2,000 costs to take your case the rest i take from your winnings, solicitor turns around a year later and says 20,000 now and 20,000 to take the case further and here's your p68, can the solicitor look for money?

It really depends on the facts of each case. I'll give an example, say the client tells the solicitor he had a accident on the 1st January 2011, on the public footpath, it's a good personal injury so solicitor takes the case on a client pays outlays and solicitor will get paid when action is won. But it then turns out that the accident was on the 1st January 2010 and happened on the clients own property. No longer a good case and the solicitor made his decision based on incorrect information.

So without knowing exactly happened no one can say, the fact that you mentioned the statute of limitations, I assume this info came out during the case and the solicitor would never have taken the case on had he know that the statute was going to be an issue.

Btw it's a section 68 letter, which should have been sent to the client on the opening of the file.

boo3000

Ok so we know that the law society might act against the solicitor, fair enough, but the solicitor can still seek payment for the work they unethically accrued?

ResearchWill

boo3000 wrote: »

Ok so we know that the law society might act against the solicitor, fair enough, but the solicitor can still seek payment for the work they unethically accrued?

Anyone can seek payment for anything they want, it does not mean they will get it.

If your friend objects to the bill , they have a number of options. 1. Tax the bill, 2 Go to the law society, 3 if the solicitor is acting illegally and has messed up the clients otherwise good case they can sue him.

boo3000

No it's not that the statue of limitations stopped the case it's that by the time the solicitor looked for this fee there wasn't enough time to get the case in through another solicitor, barrister etc before the statue. My friend now knows her case is dead and isn't so worried about that more that she feels she was mislead to believe it could ever have happened in the first place.

boo3000

ok so what do you mean by tax the bill? so my friend refuses to pay on the justifiable grounds she was mislead, what then?

ResearchWill

boo3000 wrote: »

No it's not that the statue of limitations stopped the case it's that by the time the solicitor looked for this fee there wasn't enough time to get the case in through another solicitor, barrister etc before the statue. My friend now knows her case is dead and isn't so worried about that more that she feels she was mislead to believe it could ever have happened in the first place.

So you are saying your friend went to a solicitor a year ago, then sat on the case and did nothing for a year. Then asked for money a few days before the statute ran out. Then between the gigs and the reels the statute ran out.

ResearchWill

boo3000 wrote: »

ok so what do you mean by tax the bill? so my friend refuses to pay on the justifiable grounds she was mislead, what then?

If a client does not agree with a bill he can have the same taxed, that is use a cost account to present his view on the bill to the taxing master of the high court.

boo3000

pretty much yup, now i don't know the exact details but i know that was part of the situation it could have been two or three weeks before the statue but i know that time was very much running out. I don't know anyway if an honest solicitor would have taken her case because she has very little and it would have been a high court case, i'd say she's given up on it aswell.
Why would the taxing master of the high court be dealing with it? does this cost my friend money to have the taxing master of the high court assess her bill? is this the same as other bills? sorry i know nothing about this, i've always paid my bills but im also lucky that i've never been screwed like this!

ResearchWill

boo3000 wrote: »

pretty much yup, now i don't know the exact details but i know that was part of the situation it could have been two or three weeks before the statue but i know that time was very much running out. I don't know anyway if an honest solicitor would have taken her case because she has very little and it would have been a high court case, i'd say she's given up on it aswell.
Why would the taxing master of the high court be dealing with it? does this cost my friend money to have the taxing master of the high court assess her bill? is this the same as other bills? sorry i know nothing about this, i've always paid my bills but im also lucky that i've never been screwed like this!

I don't think anyone on here can really help your friend, as to me the story your friend has told you does not add up. The main reason I say that is that high court proceedings have not commenced, as you state the matter is statute barred. So there can be little or no fees yet, maybe outlays in reports etc. but again in a personal injuries matter the only report pre proceedings in high court would be doctors report.

Only advice I or anyone else can give your friend is to contact the law society if it is believed the solicitor has done wrong.

December2012

I think you would get a clearer picture if you, or even better your friend, contacted the Law Society directly about this matter.

you can discuss the problems directly with them and get advice on what to do next.

Here are their details
http://www.lawsociety.ie/Pages/Public-Make-a-Complaint-CMS/