Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes

Shelflife

What i couldnt understand at the time was how she tampered with the sample?

Is the sample not done in front of the tester? as in heres the bottle and i will now watch you pee into it?

Otherwise you could just go into your bathroom take out a preprepared sample and hand it over.

Personally I think that she was as clean as the rest of the swimmers that she was competeing with at the time.

micropig

Rosanna Davidson would give her a run for her money:pac::pac:

Jimoslimos

mathepac wrote: »

I believe Katie Taylor is our supreme athlete and I don't believe her record will ever be equalled by another Irish amateur athlete

Katie faces an enormous challenge at the Olympics as she will be boxing in a weight category above that which she is classified for other competitions i.e. 64kg, where she will meet women who are heavier / stronger than her usual opponents.

I believe she can win a medal and unfortunately as boxers only box in a single competition, I doubt if she'll still be boxing in eight years time, which she'd have to do to emulate Michelle's untarnished achievements, but she could not emulate her at a single Olympics
.

Huh? She will probably have to beat ONE single competitor to win a medal, just three for gold. Hardly an enormous challenge.

I do agree however that it is much easier to win multiple medals in swimming. In fact I'd question why do we need events over the same distance in 4 different strokes. Usain Bolt doesn't compete in the 100m Backward Hopping

mathepac

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Huh? She will probably have to beat ONE single competitor to win a medal, just three for gold. Hardly an enormous challenge...

Probably being the key word - I don't know for sure, you don't know and neither does Katie. All she can do is compete against whatever number of opponents she is presented with, be that 3 or 33.

Pherekydes

mathepac wrote: »

Probably being the key word - I don't know for sure, you don't know and neither does Katie. All she can do is compete against whatever number of opponents she is presented with, be that 3 or 33.

We do know. She's seeded into the QF.

3ndahalfof6

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Huh? She will probably have to beat ONE single competitor to win a medal, just three for gold. Hardly an enormous challenge.

I do agree however that it is much easier to win multiple medals in swimming. In fact I'd question why do we need events over the same distance in 4 different strokes. Usain Bolt doesn't compete in the 100m Backward Hopping

the fact she probably has spent most of her life training and being dedicated trying to excel is not an enormous challenge,

do you think she just woke up 6 months ago and said, jasus I think I will enter for the Olympics.

Motorist

Michelle Smyth is a disgrace. Her husband was a proven cheat. She tampered with a urine sample and no explanation was ever provided by Smith. She also had a habit of not being available for random out-of-competition testing.

It's fitting that she's now a lawyer. She's a disgrace to her country and has tarnished it's reputation. It would have been better if she'd never even qualified for the olympics.

Her pathetic drivelling supporters remind me of Hitler's generals in the last days in the bunker in Berlin.

Jimoslimos

Motorist wrote: »

Her pathetic drivelling supporters remind me of Hitler's generals in the last days in the bunker in Berlin.

Have to admit, didn't see that Godwin coming!

mathepac

Pherekydes wrote: »

We do know. She's seeded into the QF.

Mighty, thanks for that. Hopefully she can add silver or gold to her trophy cabinet and to the awards she has brought to her country, just like Michelle whose medal awards were never reversed, as was pointed out already in the thread.

Pherekydes

Motorist wrote: »

It's fitting that she's now a lawyer. She's a disgrace to her country and has tarnished it's reputation.

She tarnished the country's reputation? Grotesque, unbelievable, bizarre, unprecedented.

M cebee

she cheated

mathepac

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Have to admit, didn't see that Godwin coming!

Ah the Godwins. Did we not have an award at one stage for the worst?

K-9

Pherekydes wrote: »

That is incorrect. She was beaten by a Russian, who died at age 43, a Ukrainian, who tested positive in 1993, and a Canadian.

Indeed, sorry, it was the World Championships 1993 I was thinking of, where the 3 Chinese athletes beat her.

bob50

I am amazed at the amount of begrudgery here about Michelle Smith

She won her medals so what if she had help in winning them i wonder how many top athletes in any sport dont have help in winning gold medals. in this day and age i would have tought assistance would be required in reaching top place

Also the media in this country are a disgrace singing Michelles praises in 96 and 2 years later she becomes a ogre

Monty Burnz

Pherekydes wrote: »

We do know. She's seeded into the QF.

Having said that, she had to get into the semis of the world championships (I think?) to even qualify for the Olympics...

Monty Burnz

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, sorry, it was the World Championships 1993 I was thinking of, where the 3 Chinese athletes beat her.

And all three disappeared off the map immediately afterwards. Not. Suspicious. At. All.

devotional1993

Girl was more juiced up than Mr Delmontes orange orchard. Made a fool of us all at the time. looking back though it was so bloody obvious.

foxyboxer

Michelle Smith didn't take performance enhancing drugs.

Oh, and OJ Simpson didn't murder Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman.

rgmmg

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Do you think she tampered with the sample? If so why? This situation bothers me. What if she's totally innocent, imagine how horrible it must feel to be on the bad end of a witch hunt. Na wouldn't ride her either.

Thought it was a tampon in the urine sample?

latenia

I think her greatest mistake was going on to win 2 more golds and a bronze after the first one. If you're going to cheat don't overdo it like the class dunce who suddenly gets straight A's. If she had just won the first gold then taken it easy afterwards she would still be a national heroine-because it's plausible that anyone can get a great result on their day.

Peetrik

Katie Taylor and Sonia O'Sullivan would be well ahead of her as far as Irish olympians are concerned IMO.

Just my 2c

Panrich

Can someone tell me why Michelle Smyth is villified for cheating and Cian O'Connor is still competing for Ireland and signing autographs at the RDS?

I don't see the difference except that he had to hand his Gold medal back.

mathepac

Peetrik wrote: »

Katie Taylor and Sonia O'Sullivan would be well ahead of her as far as Irish olympians are concerned IMO....

Katie Taylor has never competed in an Olympics so she doesn't qualify.

Sonia's paltry return of a single silver medal hardly justifies her nomination. Yes I know she put in lots of effort, was at more than one Olympics, was messed around by officialdom and so on, and was an outstanding athlete, but the theme seems to be medal hauls.

Peetrik

Because people who can afford show horses are more forgivable than people who could go swimming for free. Its the Irish way

mathepac

Panrich wrote: »

... I don't see the difference except that he had to hand his Gold medal back...

The main difference is the obvious one - O'Connor's horse failed an in-competition dope test and had been fed human anti-psychotic medicine IIRC. Michelle never failed an in-competition dope test, despite being hounded for random tests at intervals three to four times greater than the statistical norm.

O'Connor's horse was doped up and was found out, Michelle was not doped up.

Pherekydes

Peetrik wrote: »

Because people who can afford show horses are more forgivable than people who could go swimming for free. Its the Irish way

What's this free swimming you speak of?

I'm interested, as the parent of two swimmers, in subscribing to this "free" swimming.

sunflower27

DebDynamite wrote: »

Taking the tampered sample aside, her victory at the Olympics does seem suspect when you consider she had no major championship wins for most of her career and then wins 3 gold & 1 bronze medal at the age of 28, which quite old for a swimmer

Yes, 28 is most definitely considered quite old for a swimmer.

I find it very hard to believe she won Olympic gold on her own merit. How many seconds (minutes ) did she shave off her personal best times to win the gold?

Got this off the web:

Ireland never had been a swimming powerhouse. They had never won an Olympic medal, and their best hope going into the 1996 games in Atalanta, Michelle Smith, had never finished better than 17th in any race in previous Olympics. But a miracle happened in 1996. At the age of 28, Michelle Smith came out of nowhere to win 3 gold medals and 1 bronze.

All that and at age 28, too. Yeah right.

mathepac

sunflower27 wrote: »

... All that and at age 28, too. Yeah right...

Yes, I can confirm she was 28-ish at the time she won her medals.

aidan24326

Suspicion fell on her straight away because of the incredible progress she had made in such a short time. Now I know litle about the technicalities of swimming but experts on the sport claimed the amount of time she was shaving off her personal best in such a timeframe was pretty much impossible without some sort of performance enhancing drugs.

Not the Olympics but I reckon the cyclist Stephen Roche was doping back in the day too.

sunflower27

mathepac wrote: »

Yes, I can confirm she was 28-ish at the time she won her medals.

I said 'and at age 28'. Where is the discrepancy?

Ah, you were trying to be funny.

sock puppet

Peetrik wrote: »

Because people who can afford show horses are more forgivable than people who could go swimming for free. Its the Irish way

Swimming might not be as expensive as golf but it's more expensive than most other sports I know of.

pickarooney

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Huh? She will probably have to beat ONE single competitor to win a medal, just three for gold. Hardly an enormous challenge.

I do agree however that it is much easier to win multiple medals in swimming. In fact I'd question why do we need events over the same distance in 4 different strokes. Usain Bolt doesn't compete in the 100m Backward Hopping

I always thought this was a bit of a joke as well. Swimming is very much geared towards the top competitors getting bags full of medals. It's farcical to have races with different strokes, really. Just have 50m, 100m, 200m etc. freestyle and get rid of all the butterfly bollocks.

sock puppet

pickarooney wrote: »

I always thought this was a bit of a joke as well. Swimming is very much geared towards the top competitors getting bags full of medals.

Yeah. When swimming strokes were developed hundreds or thousands of years ago, the creators cunningly came up with more than one style so that competitors in future Olympics could win lots of medals.

pickarooney

sock puppet wrote: »

Yeah. When swimming strokes were developed hundreds or thousands of years ago, the creators cunningly came up with more than one style so that competitors in future Olympics could win lots of medals.

I imagine it was more so that the clumsier kids wouldn't drown so quickly but it's hardly a basis for having all these separate categories in the olympics.

sock puppet

pickarooney wrote: »

I imagine it was more so that the clumsier kids wouldn't drown so quickly but it's hardly a basis for having all these separate categories in the olympics.

Why shouldn't the second most popular events be in the olympics?

pickarooney

sock puppet wrote: »

Why shouldn't the second most popular events be in the olympics?

For the same reason the three-legged race, cycling on flat tyres and the 50km walk shouldn't be in it. It's not a real test of the best if there's an artificial handicap involved.

Wossack

pickarooney wrote: »

For the same reason the three-legged race, cycling on flat tyres and the 50km walk shouldn't be in it. It's not a real test of the best if there's an artificial handicap involved.

sideways run, skipping, crawling, and my personal favorite, the 200m cartwheel event

sock puppet

pickarooney wrote: »

It's not a real test of the best if there's an artificial handicap involved.

You mean like the under 23 football tournament? Or the limit of 2 athletes per country in swimming and 3 in athletics?

pickarooney

sock puppet wrote: »

You mean like the under 23 football tournament?

That's a load of nonsense, yes. Football in the Olympics is pointless.

Or the limit of 2 athletes per country in swimming and 3 in athletics?

I don't see how that is in any way related, although I do find it very unfair that great athletes are excluded, despite being 2nd/3rd in the world, at the expense of no-hopers from non-competitive countries.

sock puppet

pickarooney wrote: »

That's a load of nonsense, yes. Football in the Olympics is pointless.


I don't see how that is in any way related, although I do find it very unfair that great athletes are excluded, despite being 2nd/3rd in the world, at the expense of no-hopers from non-competitive countries.

It's an artifical barrier to competition. You seem to want quite a lot of changes.

pickarooney

sock puppet wrote: »

It's an artifical barrier to competition. You seem to want quite a lot of changes.

So is not allowing drugs

iguana

pickarooney wrote: »

For the same reason the three-legged race, cycling on flat tyres and the 50km walk shouldn't be in it. It's not a real test of the best if there's an artificial handicap involved.

They do the hop, skip and jump* though. And have since the ancient games.

*The Triple jump.

Bob the Seducer

sunflower27 wrote: »

I said 'and at age 28'. Where is the discrepancy?

Ah, you were trying to be funny.

According to that Yahoo article posted earlier in the thread, she was 26 at the Olympics.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/29022012/58/london-2012-michelle-smith.html

mikemac1

She's a cute hoor, almost got away with it :cool:

And that's something we admire in Ireland
Well look at boyos in the Dáil!

Motorist

The general sentiment of Michelle Smyth/De Bruin is that she is a shameless cheat who duped the Irish people. Watch RTE this summer and it's contributors during the olympics - if talking of past olympic Irish greats, she won't be mentioned. I've noticed it several times over the past decade.

AngeGal

She must hugely regret not retiring due to injury or whatever in 1997. I imagine most people (probably myself included sadly) would still be gullible enough to believe that she worked hard enough to improve so much. She would still be a national hero trotted out every time the olympics/world championships, making a substantial amount of oney aswell.

I remember how all we all thought Janet Evans (gold medal winner in 1988 and 1992) who was openly sceptical about Smith's 'improvement' was just a sore loser...how innocent we were!

mathepac

Motorist wrote: »

The general sentiment of Michelle Smyth/De Bruin is that she is a shameless cheat who duped the Irish people. ...

Sorry I don't understand.

Motorist wrote: »

... Watch RTE this summer and it's contributors during the olympics - if talking of past olympic Irish greats, she won't be mentioned. I've noticed it several times over the past decade.

Personally if I were to select a media outlet renowned for its accuracy, fairness and lack of of bias I'd pick the News of the World before RTE. Oh wait a minute ... NOTW shut, RTE in the 4 Goldmines, because of poor standards, lack of transparency, not checking / cross-checking facts, no management of the fact verification process, libel, ........ OOPS

AngeGal

mathepac wrote: »

Sorry I don't understand.
Personally if I were to select a media outlet renowned for its accuracy, fairness and lack of of bias I'd pick the News of the World before RTE. Oh wait a minute ... NOTW shut, RTE in the 4 Goldmines, because of poor standards, lack of transparency, not checking / cross-checking facts, no management of the fact verification process, libel, ........ OOPS

Well it"s quite simple really, she swam the 400m almost twenty seconds quicker in 1996 than 1992, that level of improvement simply isn't naturally possible.

poppyvally

It was her husband, Eric who put the kybash on her when he said he agreed with supplements that build muscle. Of course! he encouraged Michelle to take them, back then this stuff was not so easily detectible

Motorist

mathepac wrote: »

Motorist wrote: »

The general sentiment of Michelle Smyth/De Bruin is that she is a shameless cheat who duped the Irish people. ...

Sorry I don't understand.

Motorist wrote: »

... Watch RTE this summer and it's contributors during the olympics - if talking of past olympic Irish greats, she won't be mentioned. I've noticed it several times over the past decade.

Personally if I were to select a media outlet renowned for its accuracy, fairness and lack of of bias I'd pick the News of the World before RTE. Oh wait a minute ... NOTW shut, RTE in the 4 Goldmines, because of poor standards, lack of transparency, not checking / cross-checking facts, no management of the fact verification process, libel, ........ OOPS

In spite of its recent failings with Kevin Smyth, RTE does a lot of good work. Interesting that you hold News of the World in higher regard and brushed over the whole Leveson inquiry while complaining. about RTE.

To get back to the original point, the fact remains independent sports analysts (usually previous Olympic competitors) on past RTE sports programmes don't even mention the embarrassing episode that was Michelle Smyth.