Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes

Motorist

Indo404 wrote: »

One problem. Androstenedione was not a banned substance at the time. FINA only put it on the list in 1999.

Smyth most likely did not know what know what testosterone pre-cursor she was taking from one month to the next - she obviously wasn't getting them on prescription or from a pharmacy. Also what effect did the alcohol have on masking other substances of interest in her urine sample? In any case, contaminating a urine sample with alcohol was banned at the time.

FINA's legal advice was to go for a charge they believed could not fail to avoid a technical legal challenge getting in the way. I wonder what other damning evidence they had though. Al Capone was eventually sent to prison for tax evasion.

Motorist

Indo404 wrote: »

No Ask Larry Masterson. MS was willing to go on the LL. She explained her position at the time after the Celebrities Go Wild in an interview in Ireland on Sunday.

Of course it's much more plausible that the cheat in denial who has never apologised did not want her embarrassing swimming career mentioned. Why would the Late Late show just refuse to let her go on, while letting all the other contestants take part ?
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/celebrity-news-gossip/late-late-is-snubbed-by-de-bruin-after-mention-of-a-cloud-over-career-1200562.html

"As word reached Late Late producers that the former athlete was part of a group which was to be unveiled on the show before they set off into the wilds of Connemara, Co Galway, De Bruin was told that some reference would have to be made to the cloud hanging over her controversial triple gold victory at the 1996 Olympic Games.

When De Bruin refused, she was left with no alternative other than to stay backstage and sit on her own on a bus outside the studios, while her reality show counterparts took part in the show"

Indo404

Motorist wrote: »

Smyth most likely did not know what know what testosterone pre-cursor she was taking from one month to the next - she obviously wasn't getting them on prescription or from a pharmacy. Also what effect did the alcohol have on masking other substances of interest in her urine sample? In any case, contaminating a urine sample with alcohol was banned at the time.

Whisky does not mask any substance. It is not a masking agent.

Indo404

Motorist wrote: »

Of course it's much more plausible that the cheat in denial who has never apologised did not want her embarrassing swimming career mentioned. Why would the Late Late show just refuse to let her go on, while letting all the other contestants take part ?
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/celebrity-news-gossip/late-late-is-snubbed-by-de-bruin-after-mention-of-a-cloud-over-career-1200562.html

"As word reached Late Late producers that the former athlete was part of a group which was to be unveiled on the show before they set off into the wilds of Connemara, Co Galway, De Bruin was told that some reference would have to be made to the cloud hanging over her controversial triple gold victory at the 1996 Olympic Games.

When De Bruin refused, she was left with no alternative other than to stay backstage and sit on her own on a bus outside the studios, while her reality show counterparts took part in the show"

I was a witness to the conversation between LM and MS. LM said that Pat Kenny was going to ask her about the ban. MS said she was there to raise money for charity and that she was going to say that to PK if he asked her about her ban. LM decided that that would look bad on PK and that's why RTE decided not to let MS on the LL.

Indo404

Indo404 wrote: »

I was a witness to the conversation between LM and MS. LM said that Pat Kenny was going to ask her about the ban. MS said she was there to raise money for charity and that she was going to say that to PK if he asked her about her ban. LM decided that that would look bad on PK and that's why RTE decided not to let MS on the LL.

In Ireland on Sunday: "Michelle recalls events rather differently. ‘I was told I would be brought on and interviewed by myself and then they would bring on the other seven. I felt that wasn’t the right thing to do because if we were going as a group of eight, we should be brought on as a group of eight and it wouldn’t be the right thing for them to start off a week if I was seen in some way to be different than the others.
‘We were all told the interview would be along the lines of why did you agree to do Celebrities Go Wild, are you looking forward to it, what do you expect of it, and so on. Except, when they came to me, the Late Late producer, Larry Masterson said, “well, there’s an elephant in the room we can’t ignore, so we’ll ask about what happened 10 years ago”, and I said, well, I’m not doing that.
‘I was perfectly happy to go on and I wanted to go on but I didn’t see any reason why I should be treated any differently to the others.
‘He wasn’t happy with that and I eventually said to him, look if you’re not happy, maybe you should go on with seven and not me, if that’s the bottom line. He said, “well, I need to speak to some people in RTÉ and I’ll come back to you later”, but he didn’t. I got a call next morning to say the Late Late had decided just seven people would go on and they wouldn’t have me – so, you see, I didn’t make the decision.
‘After the others were interviewed, they all thought Pat Kenny had been mean to me. That was the end of it, it just wasn’t mentioned anymore.’

Shelflife

Motorist wrote: »

Smyth most likely did not know what know what testosterone pre-cursor she was taking from one month to the next - she obviously wasn't getting them on prescription or from a pharmacy. Also what effect did the alcohol have on masking other substances of interest in her urine sample? In any case, contaminating a urine sample with alcohol was banned at the time.

FINA's legal advice was to go for a charge they believed could not fail to avoid a technical legal challenge getting in the way. I wonder what other damning evidence they had though. Al Capone was eventually sent to prison for tax evasion.

These type of arguements annoy me, on the one hand she had a chemist that was better than the testers and then on the other hand she prob hadnt a clue what she was taking,

Then we have the claim that she poured whiskey directly into the sample but there is no evidence to prove this as the testers didnt do their job properly.

She either had tested positive for a banned substance prior to this or she hadnt its pretty straightforward, if they had proper evidence of a banned substance in her system they would have banned her. They didnt so i presume that she didnt.

And then we have the wonderful throwaway remark

I wonder what other damning evidence they had though. Al Capone was eventually sent to prison for tax evasion.

theres nothing to suggest that there is any damning evidence out there yet we will throw in a nasty suggestion based on nothing.

Spokes of Glory

Pherekydes wrote: »

Michael Phelps will be older in London than Mrs de Bruin was in Atlanta.

The age factor is considered more significant in females because they lay down more body fat coming into adulthood.......hence the number of 17 and 18 year olds prevalent in the top ranks.

On a side-point, I was dating a former swimming colleague of DeBruins around the time of the 96 games, and she was adamant straight away that something was up, her point being that deBruin was by no means an outstanding talent when they were on the same teams.

Spokes

Indo404

Spokes of Glory wrote: »

The age factor is considered more significant in females because they lay down more body fat coming into adulthood.......hence the number of 17 and 18 year olds prevalent in the top ranks.



Spokes

Dara Grace Torres (born April 15, 1967) is an American international swimmer and at age 41, is the oldest swimmer ever to earn a place on the U.S. Olympic team.

Indo404

Spokes of Glory wrote: »

The age factor is considered more significant in females because they lay down more body fat coming into adulthood.......hence the number of 17 and 18 year olds prevalent in the top ranks.

On a side-point, I was dating a former swimming colleague of DeBruins around the time of the 96 games, and she was adamant straight away that something was up, her point being that deBruin was by no means an outstanding talent when they were on the same teams.

Spokes

"The average age of the U.S. Summer Olympic team rose to 27 in 1996 from 24 in 1976 and has remained steady. This year's team — even with a series of upsets during the Olympic trials that kept several older athletes from getting to Beijing — has an average age of 26.8." http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/beijing/2008-07-24-older-athletes_N.htm

squod

Indo404 wrote: »

"The average age of the U.S. Summer Olympic team rose to 27 in 1996 from 24 in 1976 and has remained steady. This year's team — even with a series of upsets during the Olympic trials that kept several older athletes from getting to Beijing — has an average age of 26.8." http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/beijing/2008-07-24-older-athletes_N.htm

U.S. Olympic team. *Cough*

Over the past 25 years, performance-enhancing drugs have been the dominant theme, although there have been other sorts of illegal activity in some cases

Not my words..........

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1176993-ranking-the-15-most-disgraced-athletes-in-last-25-years-of-us-olympic-history

squod

Indo404 wrote: »

Dara Grace Torres (born April 15, 1967) is an American international swimmer and at age 41, is the oldest swimmer ever to earn a place on the U.S. Olympic team.

Is she a one-off?

Indo404

squod wrote: »

Is she a one-off?

"The average age of the top eight women in the 100-meter freestyle at the Olympic Trials is 26.8." http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/1574.html

Motorist

Shelflife wrote: »

theres nothing to suggest that there is any damning evidence out there yet we will throw in a nasty suggestion based on nothing.

Glad you think that putting whiskey into her urine sample in order to cheat was nasty, but that suggestion is not based on "nothing". It is fact and resulted in her being banned for 4 years, a ban which was upheld on appeal.

Shelflife

And then we have the wonderful throwaway remark

I wonder what other damning evidence they had though. Al Capone was eventually sent to prison for tax evasion.

theres nothing to suggest that there is any damning evidence out there yet we will throw in a nasty suggestion based on nothing.

The nasty suggestion was highlighted, please dont quote me out of context

mathepac

Motorist wrote: »

Another poster compared the alcohol concentration of her urine sample to being a lethal dose to kill a large animal such as a horse. In your ignorance, you scorned at this questioning if anyone had ever seen a horse drinking. Of course, there is laboratory basis for calculating lethal doses of all drugs for human or veterinary use. You even foolishly questioned if anyone had ever witnessed a horse drinking...

The relevance of the remarks about whiskey and horses was my target. It's a pity that escaped you. You really must stop digging as the size of the excavation increases.

Motorist wrote: »

... Her concentrated sample came about from her pouring whiskey directly into the sample jar in a desperate attempt to conceal the banned substances she had been taking.

I dunno, do you write for RTE, Mills & Boone or the Star; your research seems a trifle flawed, your creativity good (given you didn't witness the event) but the hyperbole is OTT, IMHO.

How does any of your post relate to Michelle's Olympic achievements in 1996?

M cebee

eamonn seem's to be a right 'tool' if his late late show appearance is typical

-even worse an establishment 'tool'

he should know better as an athlete himself than to spout this rubbish

mathepac

"Gosh Brian, it’s very quiet in here now. Where has everyone gone?"

"Give it a rest Stewie, you know you beat us fair and square. We retreated rapidly with our tails between our legs."

"By ‘us’ Brian do you mean the detractors, the ‘antis’ with the imagined evidence, the bayers-for-blood, the book-burners, the down-right prejudiced, those who lack insight and understanding and are plain bad drivers?"

"For ***** sake Stewie leave my driving out of this. I know it’s only a Prius, but It’s a fine car and I manage it quite well, thank you. So far the only one to crash it is you."

"By ‘quite well’ do you mean better than the case you made here for Michelle’s condemnation? I gotta say that was the pits Brian, the absolute pits."

"Yeah we did a bad job there Stewie, we didn’t manage to get any books destroyed or witches burned at the steak."

"Surely you mean ‘stake’ Brian, not ‘steak’?"

"That’s what I said ‘steak’, what’s your problem?"

"Maybe that’s been the problem all along Brian, some people not knowing the difference between a piece of wood and a slice off a cow’s butt?"

"I guess you got us there Stewie. Let’s head back to Quohog."

"I’m looking forward to seeing the fatman again, it’s been a while and I’m due another shot at killing his bitch’s ass dead, Brian."

"Yeah, let’s go Stewie." [echoes - Stewie, Stewie, Stewie, who always gets the last word.]

(With apologies to Family Guy fans)

Motorist

What this thread, as every other thread on any forum, in addition to any newspaper article, encyclopedia entry, etc signifies is that the overwhelming majority of right-thinking, rational and sane people know that Michelle Smyth was a cheat and a fraud who was an embarrassment to her country. She is best not talked about except for when her loyal generals, the odd balls and Herr Goebbels send out a communication from the bunker in a futile attempt at rewriting history.

Shelflife

Dont be so hard on yourself Motorist, your attempts to rewrite history may well work in the future.

History books and Olympic records show that she won 3 golds and a bronze. She was tested and passed those drug tests.

The only one trying to rewrite history is yourself !

Pherekydes

Motorist wrote: »

She is best not talked about except for when her loyal generals, the odd balls and Herr Goebbels send out a communication from from the bunker in a futile attempt at rewriting history.

I find this personally insulting and quite a bit creepy.

According to the OCI, Michelle de Bruin is in good standing with the organisation, so her olympic results stand, despite clamouring to have her ban backdated.

She passed tests at the Atlanta Games, so that is the end of that. What happened in 1997 or 1998 has no relevance to what happened in '96.

mathepac

Motorist wrote: »

... and Herr Goebbels send out a communication from from the bunker in a futile attempt at rewriting history.

and the Godwins mount up and originality and intellect decline.

"It's a shame Brian, and all through lack of any credible evidence in support of their obscene wish to denigrate Michelle's Olympic achievements in 1996 and in the face of overwhelming first-hand evidence to the contrary.

Quahog will be nice after this, the clean Atlantic breezes clearing away the stench of prejudice and bitterness."

Motorist

mathepac wrote: »

and the Godwins mount up and originality and intellect decline.

"It's a shame Brian, and all through lack of any credible evidence in support of their obscene wish to denigrate Michelle's Olympic achievements in 1996 and in the face of overwhelming first-hand evidence to the contrary.

Quahog will be nice after this, the clean Atlantic breezes clearing away the stench of prejudice and bitterness."

Denial - then anger - depression - acceptance. It's really quite sad to see someone hopelessly stuck at the first stage in spite of pages of incontrovertible evidence, desperately trying to console their subconscious in pathetic Walter Mitty-type monologues.

Indo404

Motorist wrote: »

What this thread, as every other thread on any forum, in addition to any newspaper article, encyclopedia entry, etc signifies is that the overwhelming majority of right-thinking, rational and sane people know that Michelle Smyth was a cheat and a fraud who was an embarrassment to her country. She is best not talked about except for when her loyal generals, the odd balls and Herr Goebbels send out a communication from the bunker in a futile attempt at rewriting history.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2005/0625/ireland/nano-nagle-voted-irelands-greatest-woman-348756146.html

And her 1996 wins were voted the best Olympic memories by the listeners of the Pat Kenny radio show.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/celebritiesgowild/latest.html

mathepac

Thanks for the links. Just the one ooops moment for the Cork Examiner -

"5. Grace O'Malley: Sixth century pirate queen."

Sure what's a thousand years here or there between friends?

CDfm

As someone said , in 30 or 40 years time when she is bouncing her grandchildren on her knee she will show them her gold medal's and that's what counts.

Michelle is the real deal.

Why give Jedward the torch. Dumb.

dchris

I heard she was banned for fear that should would dissolve in the pool upon re-entry.

DEFTLEFTHAND

CDfm wrote: »

As someone said , in 30 or 40 years time when she is bouncing her grandchildren on her knee she will show them her gold medal's and that's what counts.

Michelle is the real deal.

Why give Jedward the torch. Dumb.

The medals are only real if the winner knows in their heart of hearts that they earned them. Michelle doesn't have that.

CDfm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The medals are only real if the winner knows in their heart of hearts that they earned them. Michelle doesn't have that.

If you bite into the medals they are real. real that is the test.

And she was not stripped of her medal's .

The_Kew_Tour

So if people here are saying that Micheel Smith 3 Gold Medals and 1 Bronze dont count, do you consider Sonia O Sullivan to be Olympic champion from 2000?

Wibbs

Pherekydes wrote: »

And better testing would lead to slower times for the likes of Evans because...

And Michelle de Bruin is the one villified? She was just playing catch-up.

Indeed. With every year comes more and more evidence from dopers and suppliers of said dopers that there are very few sports at the top level where "enhancements" aren't in play and the dopers "designer" drugs and masking agents are one step ahead of the testers. Singling out De Bruin IMHO is kinda missing the point. I'd be genuinely shocked if the line up at the finals were all clean.

Gummy Panda

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

CDfm wrote: »

As someone said , in 30 or 40 years time when she is bouncing her grandchildren on her knee she will show them her gold medal's and that's what counts.

Michelle is the real deal.

Why give Jedward the torch. Dumb.

The medals are only real if the winner knows in their heart of hearts that they earned them. Michelle doesn't have that.

Most athletes who use PEDs are doing it because they believe all the competition is as well.

WhatNowForUs?

Pherekydes wrote: »

Motorist wrote: »

She is best not talked about except for when her loyal generals, the odd balls and Herr Goebbels send out a communication from from the bunker in a futile attempt at rewriting history.

I find this personally insulting and quite a bit creepy.

According to the OCI, Michelle de Bruin is in good standing with the organisation, so her olympic results stand, despite clamouring to have her ban backdated.

She passed tests at the Atlanta Games, so that is the end of that. What happened in 1997 or 1998 has no relevance to what happened in '96.

What happened up to 96 has relevance including out of compitition in 96.

BQQ

In my opinion, It's highly likely she was doping, but there's no evidence of that.
The same comments apply to everyone else in those races, so she still deserves her medals either way.

M cebee

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

So if people here are saying that Micheel Smith 3 Gold Medals and 1 Bronze dont count, do you consider Sonia O Sullivan to be Olympic champion from 2000?

dunno about 2000- there was an enquiry about drugs in a car

1993 she got beat by 3 dodgy chinese

and prob more besides

CDfm

Pherekydes wrote: »

And Michelle de Bruin is the one villified? .

And not only that she has started a new legal career under her own steam so there is more substance to her than she is given credit for.

WIZE

enfant terrible wrote: »

Exactly I want the athletes to take drugs, I mean, do you want to see someone shave a hundreth of a second off the hundred metres record, or do you want to see them run it in 3 seconds? I don't want to see Dwaine Chambers running on steroids, I want to see him running with the legs of a kangaroo and the heart of a leopard. I want to see him run so fast that half way through the race, he dissapears, like the car from Back To The Future, reappears at the finish line as an old man, shouts 'Beware China', and crumbles into dust.

yes . Highjumping over the Olympic flame . Every round the flames get higher

gara

Since when does anyone care what Eamonn Coughlan thinks anyway?

Pherekydes

gara wrote: »

Since when does anyone care what Eamonn Coughlan thinks anyway?

Who is Eamonn Coughlan anyway?

CDfm

But thats hardly the point.

Michelle de Bruin is Irish and has her medals legally.

Other countries would not treat her this way.

gara

Pherekydes wrote: »

Who is Eamonn Coughlan anyway?

That's the spirit!

Pantsface

CDfm wrote: »

But thats hardly the point.

Michelle de Bruin is Irish and has her medals legally.

Other countries would not treat her this way.

What way would you like for her to be treated?

sock puppet

CDfm wrote: »

But thats hardly the point.

Michelle de Bruin is Irish and has her medals legally.

Other countries would not treat her this way.

Possibly not. The likes of Chambers and Johnson aren't admired by anyone but maybe don't attract as much negativity as Smith.

Pantsface

sock puppet wrote: »

Possibly not. The likes of Chambers and Johnson aren't admired by anyone but maybe don't attract as much negativity as Smith.

Why would they? They didn't represent Ireland?

CDfm

Pantsface wrote: »

What way would you like for her to be treated?

With respect, she has never tested positive and is our most successful Olympian ever.


It is an amateur sport and it's almost like they are waging a feud against the woman.

sock puppet

Pantsface wrote: »

Why would they? They didn't represent Ireland?

Maybe, just maybe, I wasn't talking about in Ireland?

CDfm

sock puppet wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe, I wasn't talking about in Ireland?

Anyway, I think Michelle is great and she put Rathcoole on the map too. And the Poitin Still & Jameson Whiskey.

The Irish Olympic Commitee/ Athletics Ireland has a great record doesn't it. Remember how an official got Sonia O'Sullivan to strip naked and change kit just before a race.

And, they are supposed to represent us as a country.Oh Lordy

Pantsface

sock puppet wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe, I wasn't talking about in Ireland?

Where then?

Pantsface

CDfm wrote: »

Anyway, I think Michelle is great and she put Rathcoole on the map too. And the Poitin Still & Jameson Whiskey.

The Irish Olympic Commitee/ Athletics Ireland has a great record doesn't it. Remember how an official got Sonia O'Sullivan to strip naked and change kit just before a race.

And, they are supposed to represent us as a country.Oh Lordy

Her husband was done for the drugs, I think it was 91 / 92? She met him at the Barcelona Olypmics back in 1992 I remember being told

GetWithIt

AngeGal wrote: »

She must hugely regret not retiring due to injury or whatever in 1997. I imagine most people (probably myself included sadly) would still be gullible enough to believe that she worked hard enough to improve so much. She would still be a national hero trotted out every time the olympics/world championships, making a substantial amount of oney aswell.

I remember how all we all thought Janet Evans (gold medal winner in 1988 and 1992) who was openly sceptical about Smith's 'improvement' was just a sore loser...how innocent we were!

Guess who's making a comeback for the Olympics.

homerjay2005

did she take drugs tests in 95 and 96?

surely she was tested during the olympics, so if nothing was found then, how on earth would she be guilty of cheating?