Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes

CDfm

homerjay2005 wrote: »

did she take drugs tests in 95 and 96?

surely she was tested during the olympics, so if nothing was found then, how on earth would she be guilty of cheating?

Absolutely. There is no evidence.

So where does this presumption come from and if it is being applied why is it not being applied to the other athletes that represented Ireland as well.

Who are the decision makers who make this decision.

sock puppet

Pantsface wrote: »

Where then?

Mythical lands that lie across the Irish sea and Atlantic ocean. Legend has it that they too like to compete in sporting events.

CDfm wrote: »

Absolutely. There is no evidence.

So where does this presumption come from and if it is being applied why is it not being applied to the other athletes that represented Ireland as well.

Who are the decision makers who make this decision.

What other Irish athletes have had olympic success and also deliberately committed a doping offence (medals that haven't been stripped obviously)?

3rdDegree

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I feel sorry for the swimmers who missed out on a medal due to this drug cheat.

I agree. Between defrocked priests and Michelle de Bruin, we've ruined the Olympics for everyone

CDfm

sock puppet wrote: »

What other Irish athletes have had olympic success and also deliberately committed a doping offence (medals that haven't been stripped obviously)?

What other Irish athletes who had either success and/or improvement in th period need to be investigated and the same rule appled to all.

So all Irish athletes from that era need to be suspected as if one was at it they all mush have been.

mathepac

CDfm wrote: »

Absolutely. There is no evidence. ...

+1 As We've both been saying as nauseum, but unfortunately there are some who think stuff like this is evidence of Michelle cheating.

Pantsface wrote: »

Her husband was done for the drugs, I think it was 91 / 92? She met him at the Barcelona Olypmics back in 1992 I remember being told

CDfm

mathepac wrote: »

+1 As We've both been saying as nauseum, but unfortunately there are some who think stuff like this is evidence of Michelle cheating.

That's mad that is.

Cian O'Connors horse recieved treatment for an injury from a Vet and I a not an animal rights activist but best treatment for an animal can hardly be disagreed with nor should it be prevented by a private sporting organisation.

A break for Tommy Tiernan on that.

These sporting organisations have no real legal standing on animal welfare either.

Pantsface

sock puppet wrote: »

Mythical lands that lie across the Irish sea and Atlantic ocean. Legend has it that they too like to compete in sporting events.

Where is this? Ben Johnson is the poster boy for steriod abuse, and to say she gets more negativity? Are you serious?

CDfm

Pantsface wrote: »

sock puppet wrote: »

Mythical lands that lie across the Irish sea and Atlantic ocean. Legend has it that they too like to compete in sporting events.

Where is this? Ben Johnson is the poster boy for steriod abuse, and to say she gets more negativity? Are you serious?

Difference is Johnson tested positive in competition at the Olympics.

Michelle did not .

Pantsface

CDfm wrote: »

Pantsface wrote: »

Difference is Johnson tested positive in competition at the Olympics.

Michelle did not .

If you see his original comment, he reckons she gets more negativity directed at her than the likes of him, which is think is pure nonsense

She didn't, thats true. I still think she's a cheat. She might not have tested positive, but this tampering with the alcohol, husband done for drugging & once he takes over her training, she makes these unbelievable and incrediable improvements. I'd believe in Santa quicker than believe she got there with sheer hard work alone.

These private doctors and chemists are a good few steps ahead of doping testers - and I believe at big meets, there are generally urine tests, and not blood tests, which are harder to cheat

Well it used to be that way, i think

sock puppet

CDfm wrote: »

What other Irish athletes who had either success and/or improvement in th period need to be investigated and the same rule appled to all.

So all Irish athletes from that era need to be suspected as if one was at it they all mush have been.

So the answer to my question? Which of these other successful Irish athletes were committed a deliberate doping offence like Smith?

Pantsface wrote: »

Where is this? Ben Johnson is the poster boy for steriod abuse, and to say she gets more negativity? Are you serious?

Johnson always seemed comfortable in front of the media. Looks like I was wrong. How will I ever live with myself

CDfm

sock puppet wrote: »

So the answer to my question? Which of these other successful Irish athletes were committed a deliberate doping offence like Smith?

Smith has never tested positive for anything ever.

The problem I have with it is that irrespective of this , you and others like you are treating her as she has been , therefore proving Eamonn Coughlan's point.

You seem to think that you have an entitlement to do this and others of us say that you have not as she has never tested positive.

She is entitled to her good name and entitled to enjoy her Olympic medal's and record and have it acknowledged and that is the problem I have with your posts.

I am Irish and proud to be Irish and I am offended that those in charge are behaving this way and are very much out of control.

To take Eamonn Coughlan's point and put it in context, people like me who would normally support any Irish team or sportsperson do not see things the way you do and no longer are interested in supporting Irish athletics.

I had no interest in going to see the Olympic torch ,as the gloss has gone. This year I have zero interest in the Irish team and athletes and do not even know who they are and I have been lost as a fan as have lots of others.

I don't know if you are involved in any sport or sporting organization and it does not matter if you are .Fans support for the craic and association with achievement and there is none.

So for now I will go off and support the greyhounds.

Cookie_Monster

CDfm wrote: »

Smith has never tested positive for anything ever.

Exactly. And that despite lots of questionable practices by testers too.

I for one think she was certainly our greatest Olympian without any doubt.

Indo404

CDfm wrote: »

But thats hardly the point.

Michelle de Bruin is Irish and has her medals legally.

Other countries would not treat her this way.

I think there is a difference the way Smith was treated by the Irish press and the way she was treated by the general public. She still seems to be popular with the Irish people.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archive...348756146.html

And her 1996 wins were voted the best Olympic memories by the listeners of the Pat Kenny radio show.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/celebritiesgowild/latest.html

CDfm

Indo404 wrote: »

I think there is a difference the way Smith was treated by the Irish press and the way she was treated by the general public. She still seems to be popular with the Irish people.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archive...348756146.html

And her 1996 wins were voted the best Olympic memories by the listeners of the Pat Kenny radio show.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/celebritiesgowild/latest.html

But it is not just the press it is the Athletics establishment - Athletics Ireland and the Irish Olympic Commitee. With their record are they for real.

Sonia O'Sullivan was forced to strip naked in a public area by an official and change kit before a race.

Does anyone else find this a teensy bit odd and when I look at the way Michelle Smith DeBruin is being treated this springs to mind.

And Irish Swimming has not been scandal free and there is even a book on it

Deep Deception


Ireland's Swimming Scandals
by Justine McCarthy

In recent years, the world of Irish swimming was shattered by an appalling series of child sexual abuse scandals.

http://www.obrien.ie/book808.cfm

Its worth checking this link and podcast.

I am saying that there is a culture of arrogance and by all accounts Eamonn Coughlan is a good man and more than likely was diplomatic in what he said.

norrie rugger

Canis Lupus wrote: »

She was a drugs cheat and despite not testing positive, to suggest she wasn't juiced up for the olympics would be naive. Greatest Irish olympian my hole.

Prove it

bruschi

CDfm wrote: »

Smith has never tested positive for anything ever.

The problem I have with it is that irrespective of this , you and others like you are treating her as she has been , therefore proving Eamonn Coughlan's point.

You seem to think that you have an entitlement to do this and others of us say that you have not as she has never tested positive.

She is entitled to her good name and entitled to enjoy her Olympic medal's and record and have it acknowledged and that is the problem I have with your posts.

I am Irish and proud to be Irish and I am offended that those in charge are behaving this way and are very much out of control.

To take Eamonn Coughlan's point and put it in context, people like me who would normally support any Irish team or sportsperson do not see things the way you do and no longer are interested in supporting Irish athletics.

I had no interest in going to see the Olympic torch ,as the gloss has gone. This year I have zero interest in the Irish team and athletes and do not even know who they are and I have been lost as a fan as have lots of others.

I don't know if you are involved in any sport or sporting organization and it does not matter if you are .Fans support for the craic and association with achievement and there is none.

So for now I will go off and support the greyhounds.

I find this mad. Someone wont watch the Olympics anymore because of how a former athlete, who was given a 4 year ban to drug testing abuse, is treated. Never mind not wanting to watch the Olympics because of the drug cheats.

Find it mad reading through this thread. Smith didnt give a positive test at the Olympics, so automatically is innocent. Marian Jones was never tested positvie at the Olympics, but she was on steroids for her multiple gold medal winning performances.

Just because there may have been others who were on drugs, does not make it right that we should celebrate her gold medal wins. 2 wrongs dont make a right. Sonia O sullivan was probably done out of medals due to drug cheats in her sport. had she taken drugs and won, would that make things better?

Also, Smiths tampered sample did indeed contain bodybuilding steroids.
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/929.asp?q=Ireland-Wipes-Out-Michelle-Smith-DeBruin's-Records

Previous attempts to strip Smith de Bruin of her records since she was suspended from the sport last year for placing alcohol in a urine sample that subsequently proved to contain the banned steroid Androstenedione, seemed futile, there being no legal argument against the fact that the swimmer set her records before she was suspended

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/29022012/58/london-2012-michelle-smith.html

FINA submitted evidence that said that, on top of the tampering of the urine, Smith had also taken the bodybuilding drug Androstenedione, a metabolic precursor of testosterone, the night before the test.
Although this was not a banned drug at the time, it was also revealed that three samples, taken between November 1997 and March 1998, had shown traces of Androstenedione, which was a banned drug. FINA thought they had a better case when it came to the tampered test though, which is why they proceeded down that route

I really cant understand how people can defend her so strongly. She may be Irish, she may be 'technically' our most successful Olympian, but there are more than a few doubts about her credibility. I for one, do not believe her at all. It does not add up in the slightest.

CDfm

bruschi wrote: »

I find this mad. Someone wont watch the Olympics anymore because of how a former athlete, who was given a 4 year ban to drug testing abuse, is treated.

That was not theonly reason I gave and I gave several reasons which have contributed to me feeling this way.

Find it mad reading through this thread. Smith didnt give a positive test at the Olympics, so automatically is innocent.

Neither does it follow that she is automatically guilty.

In order for the general public, people like me, to be convinced we have to be convinced that she was treated fairly.

You may believe she was and you are entitled to that belief and others do not have to share that belief.

So there is a credibility factor but there also is a lot of aggression in how they conduct themselves.

Sonia O sullivan

I cited Sonia O'Sullivan's infamous forced strip and other issue's around sport at that time and that caused me concern. I also cited Justine McCarthy's book.

Would anyone really want their kids doing amateur sport regulated by these people.

That's rhetorical.

Also, Smiths tampered sample did indeed contain bodybuilding steroids.
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/929.asp?q=Ireland-Wipes-Out-Michelle-Smith-DeBruin's-Records


http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/29022012/58/london-2012-michelle-smith.html


I really cant understand how people can defend her so strongly. She may be Irish, she may be 'technically' our most successful Olympian, but there are more than a few doubts about her credibility. I for one, do not believe her at all. It does not add up in the slightest.

And if there was rampant drug use in sport , I find it hard to believe that it occurred without some knowledge by the organizers.

Nobody can understand how the sample got tampered with but given the shenanigan's of what goes on in sport they may feel that as a governing body they are beyond reproach but others do not necessarily share that view.

Overall,when I see all this, as a package, then maybe I don't want to support it.

The Olympics and athletics, certainly in Ireland, have lost a lot of prestige and pulling on the green jersey used to mean something when Eamonn Coughlan and John Treacy did it.

It isn't amateur anymore either in any sense of the word,its a business, and I wouldn't loose any sleep over how professional footballers or wrestlers conduct themselves so why should I here.

Pantsface

CDfm wrote: »

But it is not just the press it is the Athletics establishment - Athletics Ireland and the Irish Olympic Commitee. With their record are they for real.

Sonia O'Sullivan was forced to strip naked in a public area by an official and change kit before a race.

Does anyone else find this a teensy bit odd and when I look at the way Michelle Smith DeBruin is being treated this springs to mind.

And Irish Swimming has not been scandal free and there is even a book on it



http://www.obrien.ie/book808.cfm

Its worth checking this link and podcast.

I am saying that there is a culture of arrogance and by all accounts Eamonn Coughlan is a good man and more than likely was diplomatic in what he said.

When you run for your country, you have to wear the brand that sponsers the country, not the brand you personally are sponsered by, this is a given & she would have known this.

CDfm

Pantsface wrote: »

When you run for your country, you have to wear the brand that sponsers the country, not the brand you personally are sponsered by, this is a given & she would have known this.

Good point that it is no longer an amateur sport and that the financial considerations are high.

What I was trying to get across was that as a person Sonia was not treated with respect in this situation.

She was no longer representing her country but her advertisers. A bit like Formula 1's Mark Webber driving for Red Bull.

If that's what they are why should we look at them differently or care.

Pantsface

CDfm wrote: »

Good point that it is no longer an amateur sport and that the financial considerations are high.

What I was trying to get across was that as a person Sonia was not treated with respect in this situation.

She was no longer representing her country but her advertisers. A bit like Formula 1's Mark Webber driving for Red Bull.

If that's what they are why should we look at them differently or care.

What race was it? Was it an International?

Pantsface

CDfm wrote: »

Good point that it is no longer an amateur sport and that the financial considerations are high.

What I was trying to get across was that as a person Sonia was not treated with respect in this situation.

She was no longer representing her country but her advertisers. A bit like Formula 1's Mark Webber driving for Red Bull.

If that's what they are why should we look at them differently or care.

well, if Example: asics sponser the irish kit - you gotta wear asics, thems the rules & this is not a recent thing

Pantsface

Pantsface wrote: »

well, if Example: asics sponser the irish kit - you gotta wear asics, thems the rules & this is not a recent thing

this only goes for the kit, not the spikes/runners

Jame Gumb

No.

Our greatest Olympian is Ronnie Delaney.

Gold medal in a blue ribband event...unlikely to be repeated.

The less said about Michelle Smith / De Bruin the better...

Pantsface

Jame Gumb wrote: »

No.

Our greatest Olympian is Ronnie Delaney.

Gold medal in a blue ribband event...unlikely to be repeated.

The less said about Michelle Smith / De Bruin the better...

Very very true.

CDfm

Pantsface wrote: »

When you run for your country, you have to wear the brand that sponsers the country, not the brand you personally are sponsered by, this is a given & she would have known this.

You are quite right to point out that the stakes are high and that there is money involved.

We really can't tell if the briefing's against Michelle are commercially driven by others to prevent her getting a slice of an advertising and promotion money available. I suspect they are.

If the competitors are competing for personal gain from their personal sponsors and their team's sponsors and getting paid for it then it's hardly a volunteer thing but a commercial arrangement.

The competing for the countries honour is a pretense.

In something like boxing and golf you really know when you are dealing with an amateur cos they don't get paid.

So how are we the public to know with athletics -we don't- and as far as I can see its awash with money.

It's not a fun run and another reason why we shouldn't be supporting these people or watching this summer.

Pantsface

CDfm wrote: »

You are quite right to point out that the stakes are high and that there is money involved.

We really can't tell if the briefing's against Michelle are commercially driven by others to prevent her getting a slice of an advertising and promotion money available. I suspect they are.

If the competitors are competing for personal gain from their personal sponsors and their team's sponsors and getting paid for it then it's hardly a volunteer thing but a commercial arrangement.

The competing for the countries honour is a pretense.

In something like boxing and golf you really know when you are dealing with an amateur cos they don't get paid.

So how are we the public to know with athletics -we don't- and as far as I can see its awash with money.

It's not a fun run and another reason why we shouldn't be supporting these people or watching this summer.

Listen, I'm asking if when Sonia was told to change her gear for a race, was it an International? If so, they were right to tell her to change, as if she was representing Ireland, she had to wear the sponsers official Irish kit

You wouldn't see Robbie Keane running around in his own gear during a match would you? NO, he would have to be wearing the Irish Jersey, same applies to anyone representing their country.

Pherekydes

Pantsface wrote: »

Listen, I'm asking if when Sonia was told to change her gear for a race, was it an International? If so, they were right to tell her to change, as if she was representing Ireland, she had to wear the sponsers official Irish kit

It was the 1996 Olympic Games. Sonia had the official kit of Athletics Ireland on at the time, but was forced to change it for the official kit of the Olympic Council of Ireland.

Pantsface

Pherekydes wrote: »

It was the 1996 Olympic Games. Sonia had the official kit of Athletics Ireland on at the time, but was forced to change it for the official kit of the Olympic Council of Ireland.

Cheers

She had to change so.

raymann

CDfm wrote: »

You are quite right to point out that the stakes are high and that there is money involved.

We really can't tell if the briefing's against Michelle are commercially driven by others to prevent her getting a slice of an advertising and promotion money available. I suspect they are.

If the competitors are competing for personal gain from their personal sponsors and their team's sponsors and getting paid for it then it's hardly a volunteer thing but a commercial arrangement.

nonsense. the fact is that most right minded people think that she was a drugs cheat who was caught out of competition but who won her medals by cheating. its that simple, and theres no conspiracy.

your defense of her is very aggressive, do you have anything to do with her?

Pantsface

Pherekydes wrote: »

It was the 1996 Olympic Games. Sonia had the official kit of Athletics Ireland on at the time, but was forced to change it for the official kit of the Olympic Council of Ireland.

And, if she had been in contact with the Irish team, rather than staying away from the team with her now husband/coach, she would have known this. She went incommunicado for those games, she should have never been running in the first place to be honest.

Pantsface

CDfm wrote: »

You are quite right to point out that the stakes are high and that there is money involved.

We really can't tell if the briefing's against Michelle are commercially driven by others to prevent her getting a slice of an advertising and promotion money available. I suspect they are.

If the competitors are competing for personal gain from their personal sponsors and their team's sponsors and getting paid for it then it's hardly a volunteer thing but a commercial arrangement.

The competing for the countries honour is a pretense.

In something like boxing and golf you really know when you are dealing with an amateur cos they don't get paid.

So how are we the public to know with athletics -we don't- and as far as I can see its awash with money.

It's not a fun run and another reason why we shouldn't be supporting these people or watching this summer.

She made feck all, no one would touch her, see also: Flo Jo, who's dead now

Pantsface

CDfm wrote: »

You are quite right to point out that the stakes are high and that there is money involved.

We really can't tell if the briefing's against Michelle are commercially driven by others to prevent her getting a slice of an advertising and promotion money available. I suspect they are.

If the competitors are competing for personal gain from their personal sponsors and their team's sponsors and getting paid for it then it's hardly a volunteer thing but a commercial arrangement.

The competing for the countries honour is a pretense.

In something like boxing and golf you really know when you are dealing with an amateur cos they don't get paid.

So how are we the public to know with athletics -we don't- and as far as I can see its awash with money.

It's not a fun run and another reason why we shouldn't be supporting these people or watching this summer.

You don't have a clue :rolleyes:

CDfm

Pantsface wrote: »

And, if she had been in contact with the Irish team, rather than staying away from the team with her now husband/coach, she would have known this. She went incommunicado for those games, she should have never been running in the first place to be honest.

So Sonia O'Sullivan is wrong, Eamonn Coughlan is wrong and Michelle de Bruin is wrong.

Funny that it's all talented athletes that you disagree with. And you blame them when they don't have good relationships with the sporting organisations.

I think forcing someone to strip naked like that is wrong and maybe that's wrong too or it seems to be from what you are saying.

Pherekydes

Pantsface wrote: »

And, if she had been in contact with the Irish team, rather than staying away from the team with her now husband/coach, she would have known this. She went incommunicado for those games, she should have never been running in the first place to be honest.

One minute you're asking about the competition when Sonia was forced to change kit; the next minute you seem to have all the details. I'm a little perplexed.

Sonia didn't meet Nic Bideau until after the 1996 games were over.

The issue over the kit has been well documented. It was more a power struggle between AAI and the OCI, with Sonia a pawn in the middle.

According to the Olympic charter, the Athletic competitions of the Olympic games are conducted under the auspices of the world governing body, the IAAF, and the rules and regulations of the IAAF apply at all times. Now, AAI are affiliated to the IAAF, and have the right to decide the equipment their athletes (to wit, Sonia, amongst others) wear. But the OCI signed a contract with a rival company and forced Sonia to change literally at the last second.

None of this was Sonia's fault.

Pantsface

CDfm wrote: »

So Sonia O'Sullivan is wrong, Eamonn Coughlan is wrong and Michelle de Bruin is wrong.

Funny that it's all talented athletes that you disagree with. And you blame them when they don't have good relationships with the sporting organisations.

I think forcing someone to strip naked like that is wrong and maybe that's wrong too or it seems to be from what you are saying.[/QUOTE]

What are they wrong about?


It was the Olympics, Sonia had to be wearing the correct kit, this is something you seem to have a problem understanding?

Pantsface

Pherekydes wrote: »

One minute you're asking about the competition when Sonia was forced to change kit; the next minute you seem to have all the details. I'm a little perplexed.

Sonia didn't meet Nic Bideau until after the 1996 games were over.

The issue over the kit has been well documented. It was more a power struggle between AAI and the OCI, with Sonia a pawn in the middle.

According to the Olympic charter, the Athletic competitions of the Olympic games are conducted under the auspices of the world governing body, the IAAF, and the rules and regulations of the IAAF apply at all times. Now, AAI are affiliated to the IAAF, and have the right to decide the equipment their athletes (to wit, Sonia, amongst others) wear. But the OCI signed a contract with a rival company and forced Sonia to change literally at the last second.

None of this was Sonia's fault.

Thats fair enough.

K-9

Jame Gumb wrote: »

No.

Our greatest Olympian is Ronnie Delaney.

Gold medal in a blue ribband event...unlikely to be repeated.

The less said about Michelle Smith / De Bruin the better...

Think I posted similar earlier. While the 100M has probably overtaken it in modern times, but at that time, as the nearest to the mile and the whole publicity about the 4 minute mile before the games, no doubt about it, it was the the most prestigious track event.

CDfm

Pherekydes wrote: »

One minute you're asking about the competition when Sonia was forced to change kit; the next minute you seem to have all the details. I'm a little perplexed.

Sonia didn't meet Nic Bideau until after the 1996 games were over.

The issue over the kit has been well documented. It was more a power struggle between AAI and the OCI, with Sonia a pawn in the middle.

According to the Olympic charter, the Athletic competitions of the Olympic games are conducted under the auspices of the world governing body, the IAAF, and the rules and regulations of the IAAF apply at all times. Now, AAI are affiliated to the IAAF, and have the right to decide the equipment their athletes (to wit, Sonia, amongst others) wear. But the OCI signed a contract with a rival company and forced Sonia to change literally at the last second.

None of this was Sonia's fault.

Pantsface wrote: »

Thats fair enough.

So was it wrong to force Sonia O'Sullivan to strip or not.

raymann wrote: »

nonsense. the fact is that most right minded people think that she was a drugs cheat who was caught out of competition but who won her medals by cheating. its that simple, and theres no conspiracy.

your defense of her is very aggressive, do you have anything to do with her?

Absolutely no connection and I neither know the woman or any of her family.

I am aware this is a contentious area and I have seen no evidence that she cheated to get the medal's.

I have used facts not hyperbole to make my points.

christmas2012

she was the only fraud that kept her medal - now she is staying true to her character and is a practicing lawyer

mathepac

raymann wrote: »

... most right minded people think that she was a drugs cheat ...

Those are the same "right minded" people who like yourself think it is OK to take the woman's character and blacken her achievements with no evidence. Have you read the rest of the thread? What evidence do you have? Are you simply trolling?

raymann wrote: »

... most right minded people think that she was a drugs cheat who was caught out of competition ...

Are you familiar with how the testers conducted themselves and carried out their business? Maybe yourself and the rest of those right-minded people should be.

raymann wrote: »

... most right minded people think that she was a drugs cheat ... who won her medals by cheating. ...

Once again I challenge you and your right-minded colleagues to produce one shred of evidence that Michelle cheated at the Olympics.

raymann wrote: »

... its that simple, and theres no conspiracy...

When all these right-minded people you speak of reach a set of conclusions either with no evidence in support of their conclusion or (as is the case here) a mass of 1st hand contradictory evidence, its either a conspiracy or these people are all delusional, it's that simple.

Michelle's 1996 achievements are untarnished and she was and still is our greatest Olympian.

CDfm

mathepac wrote: »

Those are the same "right minded" people who like yourself think it is OK to take the woman's character and blacken her achievements with no evidence.

The core issue.

Are you familiar with how the testers conducted themselves and carried out their business?

And there are plenty of incidents and occurances that should lead a reasonable person to conclude that there is something wrong in the culture's of the sports organisations.

Maybe yourself and the rest of those right-minded people should be.

The inference seems to be that someone who does not agree with Raymann is not right-minded while he is the one not addressing the question's raised.

Michelle's 1996 achievements are untarnished and she was and still is our greatest Olympian.

And she is from that era in the same way that Ronnie Delaney set the bar and he inspired a generation of young men.

We are a country the size of a small US state and she should be up there.

People forget that in the USA pre 1974 that there were no college sports program's for women as there were for men with all the associated funding , scholarship's and opportunities .


Herself and Sonia were the first from Ireland and the first Irishwomen to do this and I care how they are treated.

bruschi

mathepac wrote: »

Those are the same "right minded" people who like yourself think it is OK to take the woman's character and blacken her achievements with no evidence. Have you read the rest of the thread? What evidence do you have? Are you simply trolling?
Are you familiar with how the testers conducted themselves and carried out their business? Maybe yourself and the rest of those right-minded people should be.
Once again I challenge you and your right-minded colleagues to produce one shred of evidence that Michelle cheated at the Olympics.
When all these right-minded people you speak of reach a set of conclusions either with no evidence in support of their conclusion or (as is the case here) a mass of 1st hand contradictory evidence, its either a conspiracy or these people are all delusional, it's that simple.
Michelle's 1996 achievements are untarnished and she was and still is our greatest Olympian.

Raymann called her a drugs cheat, not that she cheated at the Olympics. Show me how you think someone who was banned for 4 years for tampering with a drug sample, and who was found on three separate occasions to have given samples with body building steroids in them should not be called a drugs cheat.

If you was to believe that her olympic medals are untarnished, you do so. The swimming board of Ireland dont recognise her anymore, nor do most people. If you believe she wasnt doing drugs at the olympics, thats your opinion. I certainly dont believe she was clean, everything points to her being on drugs, from her association with a banned drug peddler, to her significant rise in times when she was past her peak of swimming age, to her subsequent drug use and drug tampering ban, to her avoidance of drug tests in the year prior to the Olympics, and to the many experts within the swimming world who have discredited her.

She gave no positive sample at the olympics, and as I said, that is not a certain cause for automatic innocence. Granted, it is not certain cause for guilt either, but I know what I think about it anyway, and I certainly believe her medals are more than tarnished.

noddyone2

You're spot on. People just want to believe ****e. What is it with Coughlan bringing this up? And I wouldn't ride either of them.

noddyone2

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

She was a drug cheat and anyone who thinks she wasn't is delusional.

And I would. Anyoen who wouldn't is delusional.

You're spot on. People just want to believe ****e. What is it with Coughlan bringing this up? And I wouldn't ride either of them.

Indo404

Pherekydes wrote: »

It was the 1996 Olympic Games. Sonia had the official kit of Athletics Ireland on at the time, but was forced to change it for the official kit of the Olympic Council of Ireland.

And all Irish participants to the Olympics knew that they had to wear the official kit of the OCI months before the Olympics. Why would you, as an experienced athlete, run the risk of having your preparation for the most important race of your life, interrupted by not wearing the official kid?

M cebee

i blame the husband anyhow-she was better off staying a drug free national champion as she was pre 92 when she met de bruin

Indo404

mathepac wrote: »

Those are the same "right minded" people who like yourself think it is OK to take the woman's character and blacken her achievements with no evidence. Have you read the rest of the thread? What evidence do you have? Are you simply trolling?
Are you familiar with how the testers conducted themselves and carried out their business? Maybe yourself and the rest of those right-minded people should be.
Once again I challenge you and your right-minded colleagues to produce one shred of evidence that Michelle cheated at the Olympics.
When all these right-minded people you speak of reach a set of conclusions either with no evidence in support of their conclusion or (as is the case here) a mass of 1st hand contradictory evidence, its either a conspiracy or these people are all delusional, it's that simple.

Michelle's 1996 achievements are untarnished and she was and still is our greatest Olympian.

"Most Irish people don't recognise MS anymore" myth.


I think there is a difference the way Smith was treated by the Irish press and the way she was treated by the general public. She still seems to be popular with the Irish people.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archive...348756146.html

And her 1996 wins were voted the best Olympic memories by the listeners of the Pat Kenny radio show.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/celebritiesgowild/latest.html

"She was too old" myth

. "Originally Posted by Spokes of Glory
The age factor is considered more significant in females because they lay down more body fat coming into adulthood.......hence the number of 17 and 18 year olds prevalent in the top ranks."
MS was 26 at the Olympics in 1996. "The average age of the top eight women in the 100-meter freestyle at the Olympic Trials is 26.8." http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/1574.html
Dara Torres US swimmer) competed in the 2008 Olympic Games and won a silver medal at age 41.

No availability for out-of-competition myth.
Originally Posted by Motorist
... FINA, swimming's international federation, had repeatedly expressed concern that Smith was unavailable for out-of-competition drug tests from 1995 onward. ...

Not true. FINA even wrote her a letter stating that FINA had no problem with her availability for out-of-competition tests. The letter was produced at the CAS hearing in 1998.

"She came out of nowhere" myth

Originally Posted by Red21
Don't know how Jimmy Magee gets away with this nonsence, she took 20 sec's off her 400m time an event that only takes 4 mins.
If paul hession had the same improvement he'd be in with a chance to win the 200m.
The 400 meter time in 1995 was a training swim for her Dutch club. You should compare like with like. She did not "improve" 20 seconds. Yes there is a difference of 20 seconds in those two times. Look at her time in the 400 IM in 1995 (4:42) and her time in 1996 (4:39). Same distance Those are two times you can compare. She was rested and tapered for both those meets.

PS "She came out of nowhere" Where did MS finish two years before the Olympics in 1996 at the wold championships in Rome?

I suppose it is easy for someone who is lazy to simply repeat these myths, instead of doing proper research.

Further, when any proper anlysis of her events is done, there were no huge drops in times, as was suggested by the Americans. The 1996 Olympic Games were the worst games for an American swimming team in forty years. It's easy to blame someone else, rather than explain why your own swimmers have not performed.
In one of the events in which she won a gold medal, MS was approached by the coach of a girl who had finished behind her in the medals. He congratulated her and said that his swimmer didn't deserve to win, as she hadn't trained hard enough. That is not something that can be said about Michelle Smith.

Paparazzo

CDfm wrote: »

So was it wrong to force Sonia O'Sullivan to strip or not.

I thought Sonia had to change cos she shít herself before the race. Probably a good thing she changed then

bazza1

Pardon my stupidity..but why did she tamper with the testing procedure? I cant remember her defence.

M cebee

i blame the husband anyhow-she was better off staying a drug free national champion as she was pre 92 when she met de bruin