Are Trap and Ireland done?

SirDelboy18

kippy wrote: »

Like we have had better options for the past ten years and better "systems" to use them in.

Lads, we have not one player in that squad (indeed available for selection) playing for the top 6/7 clubs in any country (bar maybe McGeady). That's what we are up against. We do not have the players to play in any other system that will give us the success that Trap has given us.
Our limited midfield somehow managed to get us into this tournament, move us from 38-18 in the FIFA rankings since Trap took over and somehow get within a whisker of qualifying for the last WC.

Denmark have a similar level of ability to Ireland. They pass it around. They do alright.

We left Wilson, Coleman, Hoolahan, Pilkington at home.
We have McCarthy but obviously couldn't use him.
We play players who are clearly out of form, and we refuse to change in any way.
Leave McClean on the bench and bring on Cox? Don't start Walters?

We could be a good team but Trap doesn't allow us to be. We did well to get to the Euros and now that we have faced some opposition that are in some way good we have gotten completely torn apart.

edgecutter

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Denmark have a similar level of ability to Ireland. They pass it around. They do alright.

We left Wilson, Coleman, Hoolahan, Pilkington at home.
We have McCarthy but obviously couldn't use him.
We play players who are clearly out of form, and we refuse to change in any way.
Leave McClean on the bench and bring on Cox? Don't start Walters?

We could be a good team but Trap doesn't allow us to be. We did well to get to the Euros and now that we have faced some opposition that are in some way good we have gotten completely torn apart.

I agree these players should be there, but had trap brought them and they had played and lost I guarantee that everyone here would give out about that these players don't know the trap system like whelan etc.

Kone

Trap was never going to change the system for this tournament. Let's see what happens in the next campaign, I fully expect to see Pilkington et al involved.

SirDelboy18

edgecutter wrote: »

I agree these players should be there, but had trap brought them and they had played and lost I guarantee that everyone here would give out about that these players don't know the trap system like whelan etc.

I think people appreciate when a team tries to play football. They certainly have more time for losing when trying to play nice stuff, than losing when playing awful stuff.

A little bit of a strange analogy but look at the neutrals reaction to Blackpool and Birmingham getting relegated last year. People appreciated Blackpool's philosophy, and thought Birmingham were depressing. People praised Swansea even in defeat and lambasted Villa in defeat.

I'm not saying that we need to go 1-1-8, but we could play a 4-2-3-1 which would suit us much better.

kippy

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Denmark have a similar level of ability to Ireland. They pass it around. They do alright.

We left Wilson, Coleman, Hoolahan, Pilkington at home.
We have McCarthy but obviously couldn't use him.
We play players who are clearly out of form, and we refuse to change in any way.
Leave McClean on the bench and bring on Cox? Don't start Walters?

We could be a good team but Trap doesn't allow us to be. We did well to get to the Euros and now that we have faced some opposition that are in some way good we have gotten completely torn apart.

Wilson and Coleman were ripping up the Pl this year, weren't they?
Pilkington, maybe an argument for him and Hoolahan, its not like they are world beaters either though is it?
And it's pointless bring McCarthy into this.
We are a good team, trap has made us into a good team. BUT WE ARE NOT IN THE LEAGUE OF THE TOP 10 in the world and its not like back in the day where you could call on some great player to change things.

We were hardly torn apart by the way.


Denmark are very obviously a completely different team, with a number of players playing for "big" clubs and the remainder fairly talented. (I hate using this argument, but it is possible to have a daycent soccer team in a small country when the national sport is mainly soccer and clubs from that country do take part in top level european events)

dsmythy

These threads often meander around the forum for a while then the manager in the title gets sacked.

edgecutter

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

I think people appreciate when a team tries to play football. They certainly have more time for losing when trying to play nice stuff, than losing when playing awful stuff.

A little bit of a strange analogy but look at the neutrals reaction to Blackpool and Birmingham getting relegated last year. People appreciated Blackpool's philosophy, and thought Birmingham were depressing. People praised Swansea even in defeat and lambasted Villa in defeat.

I'm not saying that we need to go 1-1-8, but we could play a 4-2-3-1 which would suit us much better.

True, but I bet if you asked Blackpool fans would they rather play beautiful and be relegated or play like big sam's Bolton and stay up I'm sure they would rather stay up.

We are in the business of getting results, not winning appreciation.

kippy

dsmythy wrote: »

These threads often meander around the forum for a while then the manager in the title gets sacked.

A stopped clock ........etc.........
I don't think this tournament will be the end of Trapatoni and Ireland tbh.
He has the ability to get whatever squad you throw at him into major tournaments.

sonic85

until the championships are over the team will need all the support they can get. there are two massive games coming up so lets just get behind them. when its all over we can moan away

dsmythy

sonic85 wrote: »

until the championships are over the team will need all the support they can get. there are two massive games coming up so lets just get behind them. when its all over we can moan away

Fair enough.

kippy

edgecutter wrote: »

True, but I bet if you asked Blackpool fans would they rather play beautiful and be relegated or play like big sam's Bolton and stay up I'm sure they would rather stay up.

We are in the business of getting results, not winning appreciation.

Especially in the international arena.
No point playing supper football in the qualifiers and getting nowhere.

(People often look back on the late 80's and 90's with rose tinted glasses and forget that the brand of football wasn't exactly Barca esque either but it was effective and we had better players to play it.)

Renn

kippy wrote: »

He has the ability to get whatever squad you throw at him into major tournaments.

And has a record of said squads playing pretty poorly in those tournaments.

TaosHum

edgecutter wrote: »

I agree these players should be there, but had trap brought them and they had played and lost I guarantee that everyone here would give out about that these players don't know the trap system like whelan etc.

I dont know about those guys actually being in Poland, but I really do think they should have at least been given a chance to show what they can do.

And that is my big problem with Trap. We have the oldest squad at the Euro's and yet there is no sign of players been blooded in. With players like Keane, Dunne, Duff, O' Shea, Given, Andrews all over 30 and potentially retiring after the Euro's, we are then left with numerous un-experienced players at international level in the team come WC qualifying.

He is not looking to the future and that will eventually cause problems IMO.

Jayob10

Personally ive no problem with the system. The system doesn't stop or players stringing 2 passes together.

Looking to play a more attractive style is pie in the sky. What we can do is spoil more effectively. Be watertight at the back. Despite the stats in terms of goals conceded, we are not a watertight unit despite predominantly playing 2 banks of four.

In a nutshell this is our main issue- central midfield. I have no problem if Whelan and Andrews cannot play football.

BUT THEY ARE NEITHER BALL PLAYERS OR BALL WINNERS. effective at neither. This is the real problem, They revel at reverting to there holding shape but they are not mobile enough to close down, the go box to box, to win breaking second balls.

This is the real issue.

The end of this tournament will see a large turnover in players I think.

Trap is picking from a shallow pool of players. Never was one to call for Hoolohan to play, but what he would do is offer a variation from the bench at least.

The system is fine, its just 2 of the major parts of it are flawed and thats Whelan and Andrews.

Not a Keane fan, but its virtually impossible to play as a striker in this set up, you will never receive a ball to feet from these guys.

fullstop

Francie Barrett wrote: »

dorgasm wrote: »

I lold because I presume this is a joke thread.

The joke is on us.

You're a joke. Non stop tripe

Tusky

1. Trap has got us to this tournament for the first time since 1988.

2. We have been drawn in an extremely difficult group.

3. You want him gone after the first game.

4. You're a retard.

SirDelboy18

kippy wrote: »

Wilson and Coleman were ripping up the Pl this year, weren't they?
Pilkington, maybe an argument for him and Hoolahan, its not like they are world beaters either though is it?
And it's pointless bring McCarthy into this.
We are a good team, trap has made us into a good team. BUT WE ARE NOT IN THE LEAGUE OF THE TOP 10 in the world and its not like back in the day where you could call on some great player to change things.

We were hardly torn apart by the way.


Denmark are very obviously a completely different team, with a number of players playing for "big" clubs and the remainder fairly talented. (I hate using this argument, but it is possible to have a daycent soccer team in a small country when the national sport is mainly soccer and clubs from that country do take part in top level european events)

Wilson was very effective this year, certainly more so than Ward. Coleman was better than Duff and Hunt this year.

Pilkington and Hoolahan performed very well against top class opposition. Got many extremely good results.

Denmark don't have many players playing for big clubs.
Team last night: 2 starters play for Evian. 2 starters play for Brondby. 1 starter plays for AZ. 1 starter plays for Club Brugge. I starter plays for Sunderland (loan). 1 starter plays for Stuttgart. 1 starter plays for Liverpool. 1 starter plays for Ajax.
Hardly Europes elite now is it?

kippy

I suppose we could get in Pep Guardiola before the Spain match. We'd have a great chance then.....

murpho999

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Denmark have a similar level of ability to Ireland. They pass it around. They do alright.

We left Wilson, Coleman, Hoolahan, Pilkington at home.
We have McCarthy but obviously couldn't use him.
We play players who are clearly out of form, and we refuse to change in any way.
Leave McClean on the bench and bring on Cox? Don't start Walters?

We could be a good team but Trap doesn't allow us to be. We did well to get to the Euros and now that we have faced some opposition that are in some way good we have gotten completely torn apart.

FFS....they're real world beating names alright! Croatia would have been quaking in their boots with them in the squad.

Amazing how it's OK to qualify without them but Trap is a gob****e for not picking them!

WIZE

Tusky wrote: »

1. Trap has got us to this tournament for the first time since 1988.

2. We have been drawn in an extremely difficult group.

3. You want him gone after the first game.

4. You're a retard.

attack the post not the poster Mr mod









I fully agree with you

Tusky

I think another thing people need to consider - is there another country in this tournament with a smaller population than us? Is there another country with a smaller population than us that is higher in the world rankings?

I'm extremely disappointed and deflated by tonight's results - but lets keep thing in perspective.

WIZE wrote: »

attack the post not the poster Mr mod









I fully agree with you

The poster's point is retarded. Better?

Paparazzo

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I have no qualms with any of the players who played tonight, they genuinely gave it their all. Trap is clearly the problem here. Does anyone disagree with the following statements?

1. We don't have our best 23 players in the squad?
2. That 442 clearly isn't our best formation?

So, if we "cut our losses" who will we get in? Nothing worse than a "sack the manager" thread and not even suggest someone. Shít or get off the pot.

SirDelboy18

Tusky wrote: »

is there another country in this tournament with a smaller population than us

Croatia.

Jayob10

we have a decent manager.

anyone else in charge of this group would not see a major tournament thats for damn sure.

As for Pilkington, Hoolohan, Stokes et al, if you think these guys turn us into world beaters then you just don't know football.

Hoolohan would be a different option from the bench yes.

Francie Barrett

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Denmark have a similar level of ability to Ireland. They pass it around. They do alright.

We left Wilson, Coleman, Hoolahan, Pilkington at home.
We have McCarthy but obviously couldn't use him.
We play players who are clearly out of form, and we refuse to change in any way.
Leave McClean on the bench and bring on Cox? Don't start Walters?

We could be a good team but Trap doesn't allow us to be. We did well to get to the Euros and now that we have faced some opposition that are in some way good we have gotten completely torn apart.

You are 100% right.

We have a limited pool of talent, it is a scandal we have left so many of our best players at home or on the bench. What's even more ridiculous is that so many people don't want to know. Apparently just getting to the finals is good enough.

Francie Barrett

Tusky wrote: »

4. You're a retard.

I am a retard for wanting to see our best 11 players on the pitch?

Really?

wonderfullife

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Trap is a hero for even getting us to the tournament. There is no shame in being beaten by a better team. Disappointment certainly that we gave away soft goals and made it easier for them. However, any Irish fan who thinks we are on the same level as any of the other three teams obviously hasn't been paying enough attention.

I'm grateful to Trap and the lads for getting us there.

def agree.

mind you, i dont think we were outclassed in the way some are making out. all 3 goals were from errors. Take them away and i'd say both keepers had an equal amount to do in the game. We had some clear cut chances from headers and a stonewall penno denied. They may have been more technically gifted and passed it better but they were not ripping us apart.

The goals were pure sloppy but take them away and it wasn't the demolition job some are implying.

A_Sober_Paddy

Well for such as small nation we sure have illusions of grandeur...

We don't have our own professional league.
Football is the countries 4th sport.
Most of our players, aren't regulars for their clubs.

Just to get to the finals is an achievement for us, our current crop of players are nowhere near the standard of the players from 88,90 & 94...and even our squad in 2002 is probably better than this crop.

All this talk about
Coleman, McCarthy, Clark, hoolahan...

They don't fit into trap's system which is a very rigid one, would I like for us to play these players and be a bit more creative...of course. But then who is to say that we'd get to the finals then, we got here because we are hard to beat...

Tonight we just didn't show up and didn't get the rub of the green tonight, but the fact that we are there is a fairly massive achievement.

Irish football was spoiled with the glory days of 88, 90 & 94, but that was a golden generation, that we won't see the like of for many many years to come.

Optimalprimerib

I am not angry that we lost by being negative, I am angry because the 3 goals scored we fro Irish mistakes. Beautiful football/ ugly football makes no difference if the goals scored against you are from howlers.

And those mistakes came from the players not knowing what to do with the ball when under pressure, there was more back passes by the Ireland team tonight than the Carlton era. Out. Of. Our. Depth.

Fix? Trap needs to blood players more. I reckon players on the fringes have the confidence knocked out of them. If they are not superstars or Paul green in their debut, they will not get another chance with this guy in charge.

It will get worse before it gets better, the Spain Italy game showed the best two performances by teams in the competition, trap could be done by the end with 3 embarrassing results.

Francie Barrett

Optimalprimerib wrote: »

I am not angry that we lost by being negative, I am angry because the 3 goals scored we fro Irish mistakes. Beautiful football/ ugly football makes no difference if the goals scored against you are from howlers.

And those mistakes came from the players not knowing what to do with the ball when under pressure, there was more back passes by the Ireland team tonight than the Carlton era. Out. Of. Our. Depth.

Fix? Trap needs to blood players more. I reckon players on the fringes have the confidence knocked out of them. If they are not superstars or Paul green in their debut, they will not get another chance with this guy in charge.

It will get worse before it gets better, the Spain Italy game showed the best two performances by teams in the competition, trap could be done by the end with 3 embarrassing results.

Don't you know? We're not allowed to criticise the team on this forum. Anyone who does so is a retard, according to Tusky at least.

kippy

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Wilson was very effective this year, certainly more so than Ward. Coleman was better than Duff and Hunt this year.

Pilkington and Hoolahan performed very well against top class opposition. Got many extremely good results.

Denmark don't have many players playing for big clubs.
Team last night: 2 starters play for Evian. 2 starters play for Brondby. 1 starter plays for AZ. 1 starter plays for Club Brugge. I starter plays for Sunderland (loan). 1 starter plays for Stuttgart. 1 starter plays for Liverpool. 1 starter plays for Ajax.
Hardly Europes elite now is it?

They have more players than us playing for top clubs, have no issues with other sports in their country and have national clubs who consistently play in the champions league. They have a better chance of getting players together and in cup completion's anything can and will happen when things go your way, as they did last night for Denmark.

WE REALLY DON'T HAVE THE PLAYERS TO CONSISTENTLY COMPETE WITH THE TOP TEAMS IN THE WORLD.
We literally have to play the game Trap plays to get anything out of these games and oftentimes this doesnt work.
It was almost the same type of tactics when we were at our most successful, only we had better players to play them.

WIZE

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I am a retard for wanting to see our best 11 players on the pitch?

Really?

no its because you think trap should be sacked for not sharing your opinion

Soups123

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Tusky wrote: »

4. You're a retard.

I am a retard for wanting to see our best 11 players on the pitch?

Really?

Your best 11 is ****in shocking, u've talked **** about this team the past few months and fully expected u here tonight talking crap. Anyone can be a fcking moan

kippy

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Don't you know? We're not allowed to criticise the team on this forum. Anyone who does so is a retard, according to Tusky at least.

Criticise who you want, but don't expect to get a free soap box to vent your criticisms without comment in return, especially considering the context of your criticisms.

Xavi6

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Well for such as small nation we sure have illusions of grandeur...

We don't have our own professional league.
Football is the countries 4th sport.
Most of our players, aren't regulars for their clubs.

Since when?

UpTheSlashers

Are "Are [Manager] and [Team] done" threads done?

kippy

Xavi6 wrote: »

Since when?

It's probably second or third, I really doubt it is fourth.
Everything else in the post stands up.

G.K.

I think this thread has run its course...