Junkies

Odysseus

face1990 wrote: »

That's exactly the overly-PC attitude that's hampers any effort to fix the problem.

Abusing drugs isn't a right. Not wanting to be bothered by addicts is not racism or xenophobia.

Not wanting to fix the problem, I have been working in clinics for the past 14 years, I also teach courses/ lecture on addiction in various colleges. Don't make me laugh. However I do have professional ethics thank god.

Odysseus

face1990 wrote: »

My point is that they aren't a seperate social group who deserve to be allowed continue what they're doing. I'm not endorsing mass murder or euthanasia, but I don't we should go out of our way to spare their feelings or dignity.

Heroin addicts are a drain on society. If they are forced to quit the drug (even if it means being deprived of their liberty for a while) they can eventually contribute to society, which will benefit them as individuals too.




I'd agree with that. Junkie is a very derogatory term.

You cannot force treatment on anyone, it will not work.

fran17

Odysseus wrote: »

You cannot force treatment on anyone, it will not work.

so society will just sit back and let these vermin shoot up and cause untold misery for say ten years or so until they have some great epiphany one day.that will be on the same day world peace breaks out mate

Odysseus

fran17 wrote: »

so society will just sit back and let these vermin shoot up and cause untold misery for say ten years or so until they have some great epiphany one day.that will be on the same day world peace breaks out mate

No we continue to offer services and work with them. It takes me six to nine months on average to get a person into detox unit, so lets improve services a bit.

Odysseus

Apologies double post

Pussnboots

fran17 wrote: »

Odysseus wrote: »

You cannot force treatment on anyone, it will not work.

so society will just sit back and let these vermin shoot up and cause untold misery for say ten years or so until they have dsome great epiphany one day.that will be on the same day world peace breaks out mate

Do you think that society would be happy if the money spent on forcing somebody was wasted, because that is exactly what would happen because the treatment would not be effective as the user will just walk out the door n straight into the arms of their dealer which wouldn't be far as there is so much gear knocking about at the minute! Sterilising users will never happen either due to the ethical issues nobody had the right to remove another persons opportunity to have a child no matter what the circumstances be heroin or anything else

wilkie2006

Pussnboots wrote: »

Sterilising users will never happen either due to the ethical issues nobody had the right to remove another persons opportunity to have a child no matter what the circumstances be heroin or anything else

Agreed. Although unfortunately there are some who really are campaigning for that:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11545519

Drug addicts across the UK are being offered money to be sterilised by an American charity.
Project Prevention is offering to pay £200 to any drug user in London, Glasgow, Bristol, Leicester and parts of Wales who agrees to be operated on.

Pussnboots

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Pussnboots wrote: »

Sterilising users will never happen either due to the ethical issues nobody had the right to remove another persons opportunity to have a child no matter what the circumstances be heroin or anything else

Agreed. Although unfortunately there are some who really are campaigning for that:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11545519

Drug addicts across the UK are being offered money to be sterilised by an American charity.
Project Prevention is offering to pay £200 to any drug user in London, Glasgow, Bristol, Leicester and parts of Wales who agrees to be operated on.

They can campaign all they want but it's never gonna happen in this country, they will only campaign n possibly be allowed to carry through on sterilisations in countries where abortion is legal, we deal with addiction from a medical n social model /aspect and neither would allow for sterilisation because of a person being an heroin user

Pussnboots

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Pussnboots wrote: »

Sterilising users will never happen either due to the ethical issues nobody had the right to remove another persons opportunity to have a child no matter what the circumstances be heroin or anything else

Agreed. Although unfortunately there are some who really are campaigning for that:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11545519

Drug addicts across the UK are being offered money to be sterilised by an American charity.
Project Prevention is offering to pay £200 to any drug user in London, Glasgow, Bristol, Leicester and parts of Wales who agrees to be operated on.

They can campaign all they want but it's never gonna happen in this country, they will only campaign n possibly be allowed to carry through on sterilisations in countries where abortion is legal, we deal with addiction from a medical n social model /aspect and neither would allow for sterilisation because of a person being an heroin user

Gummy Panda

The King of Moo wrote: »

whistlingtitan wrote: »

Junkie look up the word it mean a person with a drug addiction althou mostly used in connection with heroin

I know what it means. In fact, that's kind of my point. Both "junkie" and "heroin addict" mean the same thing, but "junkie" has far greater negative connotation, and is more dehumanising, in my opinion.

"Heroin addict" forces a person to remember that whatever their opinion of them, junkies are people who are addicted to heroin, and not sub-human monsters.

But addict is such a negative term. Why can't we refer to these poor creatures as "Addled by heroin"?

Pussnboots

Sorry for the double post!

Odysseus

Gummy Panda wrote: »

But addict is such a negative term. Why can't we refer to these poor creatures as "Addled by heroin"?

It the term used by most recovering addicts and a lot of professionals.

pontia

junkies are sub human vermin,they should be rounded up and used as pot hole fillers.they drain society.

The King of Moo

pontia wrote: »

junkies are sub human vermin,they should be rounded up and used as pot hole fillers.they drain society.

How would that work, in practical terms? Would you grind them up into some manner of paste?

Otherwise, your plan would be a bit unfair on the dwarf addicts.

Oh, and by the way, your statement that heroin addicts are "sub human vermin" is ridiculous and grossly simplistic.

pontia

if you are so worried about them have them all stay with you.their ruining the city.

The King of Moo

pontia wrote: »

if you are so worried about them have them all stay with you.their ruining the city.

Is this for me?

If so, I'm not worried about heroin addicts. I never said I was, and I don't see the logical connection between being concerned with the welfare of heroin addicts and them living with me.

I was simply interested in the practical mechanics of your modest proposal.

Foxhound38

Pussnboots wrote: »

They can campaign all they want but it's never gonna happen in this country, they will only campaign n possibly be allowed to carry through on sterilisations in countries where abortion is legal, we deal with addiction from a medical n social model /aspect and neither would allow for sterilisation because of a person being an heroin user

Why? Is it a great plan in any way, at any point for junkies/heroin addicts/people addled by heroin to be having kids while they are still using? They aren't even able to look after themselves, let alone another life...

Odysseus

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Why? Is it a great plan in any way, at any point for junkies/heroin addicts/people addled by heroin to be having kids while they are still using? They aren't even able to look after themselves, let alone another life...

I metioned this before and so have others ethics that is why. We use to supply the depo injection but due to cut backs we can no longer offer it. See the difference choice, informed consent.

Foxhound38

Odysseus wrote: »

I metioned this before and so have others ethics that is why. We use to supply the depo injection but due to cut backs we can no longer offer it. See the difference choice, informed consent.

I'm not suggesting doing it on the sly or anything - the choice would be theirs. They would have access to pure, free and legal heroin administered by medical professionals, but the tradeoff would be their reproductive capacity for as long as they still use. This is damage limitation, but nobody would be forcing them into the programme

Odysseus

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I'm not suggesting doing it on the sly or anything - the choice would be theirs. They would have access to pure, free and legal heroin administered by medical professionals, but the tradeoff would be their reproductive capacity for as long as they still use. This is damage limitation, but nobody would be forcing them into the programme

Offering a heroin addict access to free heroin then saying it is a choice, it is not informed consent, no professional would consider it so.

Foxhound38

Odysseus wrote: »

Offering a heroin addict access to free heroin then saying it is a choice, it is not informed consent, no professional would consider it so.

And if they are unable to make an informed choice on that issue - what chance in hell is there that they will put the child before the drug in any sort of a parental capacity?

wilkie2006

Odysseus wrote: »

Offering a heroin addict access to free heroin then saying it is a choice, it is not informed consent, no professional would consider it so.

+100!

Pussnboots

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Pussnboots wrote: »

They can campaign all they want but it's never gonna happen in this country, they will only campaign n possibly be allowed to carry through on sterilisations in countries where abortion is legal, we deal with addiction from a medical n social model /aspect and neither would allow for sterilisation because of a person being an heroin user

Why? Is it a great plan in any way, at any point for junkies/heroin addicts/people addled by heroin to be having kids while they are still using? They aren't even able to look after themselves, let alone another life...

Eh because what happens when the user comes clean?????? Sterilisation cannot be reversed and it's totally unethical to do that to another person. It would open the flood gates for compo

Odysseus

Foxhound38 wrote: »

And if they are unable to make an informed choice on that issue - what chance in hell is there that they will put the child before the drug in any sort of a parental capacity?

Thanfully we live in a world or at least a part of it where ethics hold a place. Like every thing else the answer to the question you seek depends on who you ask it of, some can some cannot. We try to catch those who can't with social service intervention when the child is born.

af_thefragile

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I'm not suggesting doing it on the sly or anything - the choice would be theirs. They would have access to pure, free and legal heroin administered by medical professionals, but the tradeoff would be their reproductive capacity for as long as they still use. This is damage limitation, but nobody would be forcing them into the programme

Heroin is a horrible horrible drug no matter how "pure" or legal it is.

Yes if you won't overdose on it if you just smoke it. It still is a horrible drug. It very quickly gets people addicted to it and when the person doesn't get his daily fix, he'll have to deal with horrible withdrawl symptoms which include terrible aches and pains in every bit of your body, restlessness, weakness etc.

There is a reason heroin addicts are given methadone instead of heroin to help with their addiction. Methadone is a long acting opiate and it won't give the person the "buzz" or "high" they get off heroin which is a short acting opiate. All methadone does is gets rids of the withdrawl symptoms. Its because methadone doesn't give the user any "high" or "buzz" and is long acting, the heroin user cannot abuse methadone and so he can slowly be weaned off his addiction.

Foxhound38

Pussnboots wrote: »

Eh because what happens when the user comes clean?????? Sterilisation cannot be reversed and it's totally unethical to do that to another person. It would open the flood gates for compo

Yes it can - vasectomy and tube tying can easily be reversed, as can chemical sterilization.

Pussnboots

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Pussnboots wrote: »

Eh because what happens when the user comes clean?????? Sterilisation cannot be reversed and it's totally unethical to do that to another person. It would open the flood gates for compo

Yes it can - vasectomy and tube tying can easily be reversed, as can chemical sterilization.

Both of those are intrusive procedures plus a woman would go through hell getting that done, chemical castration is not used here for paedophiles never mind heroin users

Chain_reaction

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Yes it can - vasectomy and tube tying can easily be reversed, as can chemical sterilization.

Pretty sure you're very wrong about ease of reversal.

Odysseus

af_thefragile wrote: »

Heroin is a horrible horrible drug no matter how "pure" or legal it is.

Yes if you won't overdose on it if you just smoke it. It still is a horrible drug. It very quickly gets people addicted to it and when the person doesn't get his daily fix, he'll have to deal with horrible withdrawl symptoms which include terrible aches and pains in every bit of your body, restlessness, weakness etc.

There is a reason heroin addicts are given methadone instead of heroin to help with their addiction. Methadone is a long acting opiate and it won't give the person the "buzz" or "high" they get off heroin which is a short acting opiate. All methadone does is gets rids of the withdrawl symptoms. Its because methadone doesn't give the user any "high" or "buzz" and is long acting, the heroin user cannot abuse methadone and so he can slowly be weaned off his addiction.

To be fair methadone is abused, and you can get stoned on it. I would like to see a diamorphine trial over here. The are plenty of primary methadone addicts over here. However, it is the best tool we have available here at the moment, and we do need a stronger focus on some type of recovery model.

However, we still need to make it available to those who will be dependant for the rest of their lives. We need better treatment not the cut back that are coming over the next few month, as of today it is two samples a month at clinics, this time two years ago it was two a week.

Rezident

Decentralise the junkies!

cloud493

They should herd them all off o'conell street onto one of the rubbish streets no one ever goes to :pac: between them and the chuggers on that street, god almighty.

Foxhound38

Odysseus wrote: »

To be fair methadone is abused, and you can get stoned on it. I would like to see a diamorphine trial over here. The are plenty of primary methadone addicts over here. However, it is the best tool we have available here at the moment, and we do need a stronger focus on some type of recovery model.

However, we still need to make it available to those who will be dependant for the rest of their lives. We need better treatment not the cut back that are coming over the next few month, as of today it is two samples a month at clinics, this time two years ago it was two a week.

I agree with you on the need to trial alternatives to Methadone. If Diamorphine could be helpful then I don't see a reason not to do a controlled trial

Jimoslimos

af_thefragile wrote: »

Heroin is a horrible horrible drug no matter how "pure" or legal it is.

'Heroin' is actually quite a clean safe drug. Diamorphine is commonly used in hospitals for pain relief. A bit moreish granted, but overall no less safe than say nicotine.

A lot of the 'horribleness' arises from complications due to its illegality. Impurities, unclean needles, etc. Methadone as a drug is probably more toxic.

Not arguing for full legalisation per se, addiction is also responsible for some of the negative side-effects - poor personal care (hygeine/dental), malnutrition. However administering 'clean' heroin to junkies in a controlled environment should be one consideration in controlling addiction.

Odysseus

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I agree with you on the need to trial alternatives to Methadone. If Diamorphine could be helpful then I don't see a reason not to do a controlled trial

There will be no trials for a few reasons, but with the next set of cuts to treatment it is sadly only going to get worse.

oppenheimer1

Odysseus wrote: »

Do people hear have any idea of prefessional ethics? Not professional I know would work in an enforced rehad situation never mind the sterilization, thankfully. The mind boggle really:(

When the government says its ok, its no longer immoral.

lukesmom

pontia wrote: »

junkies are sub human vermin,they should be rounded up and used as pot hole fillers.they drain society.

I take serious offence to that statement.

Addicts are human

They are somebody's brother, sister, son, daughter etc. For whatever reason they have become addicted to these awful drugs and simply cannot find their way out of the darkness. They are certainly not sub human. My wonderfully intelligent, gorgeous little brother died last year of an accidental overdose, he was 22 and meant the whole world to me. I tried to make him see sense but he thought he was invincible.

In my opinion, with an extreme attitude like yours, you should be rounded up and used as a pot hole filler!

Odysseus

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

When the government says its ok, its no longer immoral.

Sadly that can be true.

zega

I know people who have been addicted to heroin,both clean now,it's a horrible drug.Part of me realises that junkies are people.But part of me hates everything about them and want them out of my community.

I guess that's what growing up in dublin's heroin capital does (dolphins barn)

Smidge

It is indeed a horrible drug but my problem is that it does not only affect the user but the wider community.
The stuff I have seen junkies doing would turn your hair white.
Impossible to have sympathy after that.

Foxhound38

zega wrote: »

I know people who have been addicted to heroin,both clean now,it's a horrible drug.Part of me realises that junkies are people.But part of me hates everything about them and want them out of my community.

I guess that's what growing up in dublin's heroin capital does (dolphins barn)

I wonder why people go on it in the first place - ignorance about the zombification that results in it is no longer an excuse really...

zega

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I wonder why people go on it in the first place - ignorance about the zombification that results in it is no longer an excuse really...

The people i know who were effected were of the first wave of people addicted.AFAIK people just didn't realise HOW bad it was at the time...

Shreddingblood

syndeyfife wrote: »

Ive never said no to a whopper....

I bet you haven't you lil' sluh!

Smidge

zega wrote: »

The people i know who were effected were of the first wave of people addicted.AFAIK people just didn't realise HOW bad it was at the time...

That was the late 70's early 80's????
They are still alive????

Foxhound38

zega wrote: »

The people i know who were effected were of the first wave of people addicted.AFAIK people just didn't realise HOW bad it was at the time...

I'm moe thinking of the ones currently in their teens and in their 20's - there is no excuse there

Odysseus

mishkalucy wrote: »

It is indeed a horrible drug but my problem is that it does not only affect the user but the wider community.
The stuff I have seen junkies doing would turn your hair white.
Impossible to have sympathy after that.

I grew up a a place where gear is widespreard, I spend 8 hrs a day listening to then. It's not impossible.

Smidge

Odysseus wrote: »

I grew up a a place where gear is widespreard, I spend 8 hrs a day listening to then. It's not impossible.

Fair enough, but have they lived NEXT DOOR to you?
That lasts longer than 8 hours a day believe me.

zega

mishkalucy wrote: »

That was the late 70's early 80's????
They are still alive????

Yeah 70's 80's.They aren't from my generation,i agree with what the other dude said,for people in this day and age to go on gear is pretty stupid.

Odysseus

zega wrote: »

Yeah 70's 80's.They aren't from my generation,i agree with what the other dude said,for people in this day and age to go on gear is pretty stupid.

Yes, and people I grew up are dead because of it, the ones that live next door to my OAP mother are responsible for a rat infestation in my mothers back garden, which I'm currently dealing. They may be scum, but I cannot project that on to all addicts. Actually I believe they would be like that if they never took a drug.

Odysseus

Sorry I just woke up, my last post meant to quote miskalucy. Back off to bed now.

Gummy Panda

Odysseus wrote: »

. They may be scum, but I cannot project that on to all addicts. Actually I believe they would be like that if they never took a drug.

That's actually a good point. Some of these addicts we call junkies probably would be toe rags regardless of heroin.