Athlone '12

DaveR1

Bambaata wrote: »

Simple, minor % bonus for champs race. They had it before but the % was too great.

National Championships rewards the best racer on a certain day.

National Series rewards the most consistent racer over the year.

If bonus points are counted then the National Championships and National Series become practically the same thing when the whole point of them is to be different. If I have a bad day at National Champs or even worse puncture, then I have no chance in National Series. This defeats the whole purpose.

Personally I say no to bonus points, but yes to only 1 NS race per event and possibly 1 per weekend, but i don't think that'd work!!

peter kern

the only thing more oftne then not the racer who picks the highest scoring races and not the most consiten athlete wins .

This year aoife lynch has to be hands down the most consitent multi sport athlete on the national circuit ( and we could argue as well last year -we DONT argue that, since jeniffer totally deserved the win as according to the rules she totaly did - but it was 5 to 1 victories for aoife over the year)
this year she has
2nd duathlon champs , 2nd sprint champs, 1 oly champs, 2nd aquathon champs ( each time she was beaten by a different athlete) she will not win the nat series and one would be very suprised if she wont medal in groomsport.

thats why i say its the system that needs improvement to make the winner the most consitent athlete as it should be

DaveR1 wrote: »

National Championships rewards the best racer on a certain day.

the only think is i think it was 2008 when the last time the most consiten person ( elena then) won the nat series
most of the time it came down to chosing the right races.

National Series rewards the most consistent racer over the year.

If bonus points are counted then the National Championships and National Series become practically the same thing when the whole point of them is to be different. If I have a bad day at National Champs or even worse puncture, then I have no chance in National Series. This defeats the whole purpose.

Personally I say no to bonus points, but yes to only 1 NS race per event and possibly 1 per weekend, but i don't think that'd work!!

Fazz

I think the only realistic fix that TI could and should do is to limit NS races per day per venue.
Obviously there are requirements to balance:
- regional variances for fairness to all locations
- club ran NS races as these are the backbone of the sport
- try move dates so no clashes with similar locations etc
- the race fulfilling NS TI criteria in first place

So a lot of variables lets be fair.

Ideally, it should only be 1 NS race per weekend and you pick and chose from there. This may restrict too much supply though when demand is so high, so a max of 2 NS races per weekend but not in same location I think.

There's a decent timeline from May to Sept inclusive really, 22 weeks give or take.
There is also the odd one in April so I think that would be near enough NS races on
22 weekends at least, so upwards to 25-30+ NS races if really needed.

Pretty sure clubs would meet date requirements if TI decided to try plan it as such.

Defo an issue to offer 2 NS races in same location at same time as seen by Athlone results.
Athy and Athlone are prob the only variables really.
Both event company ran and both appear to offer very little back in terms of prize money to winners etc which i feel TI need to set rules on (separate issue).
So do TI owe these companies reward for hosting 2 of the biggest races on the circuit and in many ways a great introduction for many athletes?
Fair to say this must be a factor and is good for the sport, but also fair to say Athlone getting 2 NS on same time just didnt work.
Imagine if someone like Trevor Woods or Stephen Early, Bjorn etc raced and won the sprint and took home more points than BMC for the Olympic Nat Champs.
It's conceivable it would then cost BMC the national series title overall from that so this is a flaw that should be resolved hopefully.

Other than that the current system is probably about as fair as it can be for such high quantity of races in national series, which I understand is to meet such high demand and regional fairness.

It's relatively clear that some races will always offer better points than others, but it also depends on who shows up on the day too.

There's defo a decent amount of luck required though.
I mean BMC could still easily not win the Nat Series this year despite probably the best performances so far.
There's a lot of points at BOE and Dublin City so if he misses these then could be beaten easily I think.
But I guess that's all part of the game. Plan to do all the big races if you really want the Nat series title overall.
Of course, you can't do a sprint and Olympic at same day time so that should prob change at least.

Huff n Puff

DaveR1 - good spot = totally ridiculous situation.

of course some of us highlighted this exact scenario months ago (along with a number of other quite relevant points if I do say so myself!)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056485905&page=2

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Should this rule 'Only 1 NS race on a weekend' apply to both Triathlone, TriAthy and Brian Boru?

Surely they should be seen as 2 or 3 NS races on the same weekend (or day). Maybe the rule they need to work off is 'Only 1 NS race on a weekend (one race can have 1, 2 or 3 National series events on the same day and time)'.

With a race like TriAthlone you will have the vast majority of top rated triathletes doing the National Champs. That means that the Sprint event will be very easy to pick up NS points at. In reality most people are better off avoiding the National Champs (no bonus points anymore) and instead do the sprint, as the sprint is bound to have high numbers involved. You will probably come out with more points. Would it not make more sense to have only one NS race at Athlone and give the sprint race to another race?

Is it fair to give TriAthy 3 National Series events and prevent other areas from even having one? Surely having 3 NS events on the same weekend dilutes the quality of each of those races? What is wrong with taking the sprint from TriAthy and giving it to a race in Connaught (apologies to TriAthy organisers if you think I am picking on you!)

Fazz, I think that TriAthlone points total will end up losing Bryan the NS title unless he rethinks his racing schedule to fit in a high scoring race like Dublin City. I doubt he cares too much though - far bigger fish to fry - from his website "Next up 70.3 Antwerp, Estonia 111, Galway 70.3 and then challenge barca!" = not many points on offer there!

Gives me an outside chance of pinching it so I shouldn't be complaining, but with the form he showed at BotE it's looking like Stephen Early's to lose at this stage.

Current average points per race of main contenders
McCrystal - 123.2 (5 races)
Scully - 122.6 (3 races)
Early 122.3 (3 races - big points to be given for BotE which will put him close to the top)
Ludick - 121.75 (4 races)
Woods - 121.5 (4 races)

Bjorn won it last year with a points average of 125.5 :eek:

peter kern

but to be fair you cant change the situation a few month ago that is way to late and for this years the rules are spelt out and are the same rules for EVERYBODY.
we all agree the rules can be improved but for this year this is the rules and we all knew it and can plan the way we want it.


but for next year i would like to see changes.
but this years winner is the legit winner using the system to thier best advantage.
And we should not blame people using the system. if anybody has an issue they knew the issue long beforehand.
so i think its on us to be a good spot for this year but make sure it will be a fairere system next year and dodnt forget about till next year in june or whatever.

Huff n Puff wrote: »

DaveR1 - good spot = totally ridiculous situation.

of course some of us highlighted this exact scenario months ago (along with a number of other quite relevant points if I do say so myself!)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056485905&page=2



Fazz, I think that TriAthlone points total will end up losing Bryan the NS title unless he rethinks his racing schedule to fit in a high scoring race like Dublin City. I doubt he cares too much though - far bigger fish to fry - from his website "Next up 70.3 Antwerp, Estonia 111, Galway 70.3 and then challenge barca!" = not many points on offer there!

Gives me an outside chance of pinching it so I shouldn't be complaining, but with the form he showed at BotE it's looking like Stephen Early's to lose at this stage.

Current average points per race of main contenders
McCrystal - 123.2 (5 races)
Scully - 122.6 (3 races)
Early 122.3 (3 races - big points to be given for BotE which will put him close to the top)
Ludick - 121.75 (4 races)
Woods - 121.5 (4 races)

Bjorn won it last year with a points average of 125.5 :eek:

BTH

peter kern wrote: »

are you saying we would be better off without a nat series if there is no better way doing it....

Yes, without a doubt, cancel the whole thing. Close this years competition now, and hand out the awards based on the current standings. :D

Huff n Puff wrote: »

......(3 races - big points to be given for BotE which will put him close to the top)

Fazz wrote: »

There's a lot of points at BOE and Dublin City so if he misses these then could be beaten easily I think.

My rough (very rough and open to correction) workings suggest BotE hasn't been a bumper year for NS points with the winner picking up 122.2-122.6 points and third place getting low 116. Last year all the top 5 got 120+

For myself it looks like it could be a worse haul of points than Joey Hannan which will be disappointing. All those hills, all that pain, for nothing!


The problem with one race per weekend (which I do believe would help) is that there will very quickly be a lack of races. Demand for NS race places is already very very high. And not every RD/Club wants their race to be part of the NS. And as I have already said, there will still be races that score higher than others. Look at the Liam Ball tri this year, very low NS points awarded if you look at the top of the field. Compare to HotW, DCT, and you see massive differences.

Fazz

Huff n Puff wrote:

Fazz, I think that TriAthlone points total will end up losing Bryan the NS title unless he rethinks his racing schedule to fit in a high scoring race like Dublin City. I doubt he cares too much though - far bigger fish to fry - from his website "Next up 70.3 Antwerp, Estonia 111, Galway 70.3 and then challenge barca!" = not many points on offer there!

Gives me an outside chance of pinching it so I shouldn't be complaining, but with the form he showed at BotE it's looking like Stephen Early's to lose at this stage.

Current average points per race of main contenders
McCrystal - 123.2 (5 races)
Scully - 122.6 (3 races)
Early 122.3 (3 races - big points to be given for BotE which will put him close to the top)
Ludick - 121.75 (4 races)
Woods - 121.5 (4 races)

Bjorn won it last year with a points average of 125.5 :eek:

Have to admit I was surprised to see you beaten on bike and run on Sunday! Thought that race would be yours but looked like Early raced very strong indeed.

I agree looks like BMC has no NS left and that he will prob be overtaken as a result.
A couple of quick back of fag pack calcs has:

Stephen Early - 123.2 for BOE (may vary)
Huff n Puff - 119.1 for BOE

That could put Stephen up to 122.75 average and yourself to 121.5.

So to win Nat Series:

Early needs 1 x 125 pointer
Huff n puff needs 2 x 125 pointers

Then it will be very close at end of season...!

Realistically, Dublin City is where it will prob be decided.
You yourself got 125.8 there for 2nd last year so same again and a 124 or so from b Boru could have it a 3 way tie

Highly likely if BMC misses DCT then Early or yourself will take the lead as you say.

Best of luck man, you've got a very good chance to be right in there for overall!


Won't see you at any other races but will pop along to DCT to watch the action pan out!
I'm down to 2 races or maybe 3. 2 x 70.3's so all in on them for now.

Huff n Puff

Fazz wrote: »

Have to admit I was surprised to see you beaten on bike and run on Sunday! Thought that race would be yours but looked like Early raced very strong indeed.

Not one of my best efforts, but not even my best effort would have beaten him as he was motoring. Terrible swim and things went downhill quickly after that. Gave up on the run when stuck in no mans land. I have never been so angry with myself at a race in my life!!

There is nothing like getting a good hammering to motivate you, so hoping to bounce back stronger and slimmer in Dublin. I like the Dublin course and I will taper for that one but unless I cut that swim gap in half I ain't got a chance in hell of beating Early. It's definitely his to lose.

Best of luck at the 70.3s

El Director

Huff n Puff wrote: »

....Terrible swim and things went downhill quickly after that. Gave up on the run when stuck in no mans land. I have never been so angry with myself at a race in my life!!

[off topic] H'n'P do you mind me asking - have you pin pointed what exactly went wrong in the swim? Also why were you so angry? I presume it was because of the swim. Just curious. Good luck in your quest

DaveR1

El Director wrote: »

[off topic] H'n'P do you mind me asking - have you pin pointed what exactly went wrong in the swim? Also why were you so angry? I presume it was because of the swim. Just curious. Good luck in your quest

Because he didn't have my feet to draft off!!!!!

Huff n Puff

El Director wrote: »

[off topic] H'n'P do you mind me asking - have you pin pointed what exactly went wrong in the swim?

Ah, its hard to pin point exactly why I swam so poorly, it's probably a mixture of:

I have really upped the weekly swim totals I am doing since Kilkee and probably went into that swim tired. It wasn't an important race for me so trained through it. The arms were loaded with lactic acid within 100m of the start and I couldn't flush it out. I would have been targeting a 2 min gap to Early or 21:30 so was miles off both.

I ate far too big a breakfast, way to close to the race start time. I lost track of time while talking to fellow competitors in the hostel.

Cold lake + short time to warm up + numerous holes in my wetsuit (I can't afford a new one) = cold triathlete at the start line.

Not having DaveR1 there to pace me was definitely one of the reasons!! but two other triathletes went by me and I couldn't even stay on their legs.

Big picture: Training - avoiding the 'maximum effort' lengths in training. Scared to push it to the next level in terms of intensity. Too much comfort zone swimming. Mistaking quantity for quality. Far too few sessions where my arms are hanging off me at the end.

El Director wrote: »

Also why were you so angry? I presume it was because of the swim. Just curious.

The swim was the start of it but the whole thing just felt like one step forward (Kilkee), two steps back.

Anytime I have gone into a National Series race where I am genuinely considered one of the favourites to win it I end up in second place.

I had put a lot of work into the swim and bike since Kilkee but both seemed to go backwards. I haven't been running much due to a stress fracture (aquajogging instead) so was happy enough with that time.

Also, the little things = chain got knocked off the bike running through the grass out of transition (my bike was hopping everywhere cos I didn't secure the shoes with elastics). I forgot to take my feet out of the shoes before the dismount line after the cycle. The road surface on the bike wasn't the best so it was hard to get into a good rhythm.

Most of it though is down to the manner of the beating. A 4 minute defeat is a demolition and it is pretty embarrasing even it was to a top / different class triathlete and sound lad like Stephen.

I don't mind getting angry though. If you don't get angry after a poor performance then it doesn't mean enough to you.

El Director

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Ah, its hard to pin point exactly why I swam so poorly, it's probably a mixture of:

I have really upped the weekly swim totals I am doing since Kilkee and probably went into that swim tired. It wasn't an important race for me so trained through it. The arms were loaded with lactic acid within 100m of the start and I couldn't flush it out. I would have been targeting a 2 min gap to Early or 21:30 so was miles off both.

I ate far too big a breakfast, way to close to the race start time. I lost track of time while talking to fellow competitors in the hostel.

Cold lake + short time to warm up + numerous holes in my wetsuit (I can't afford a new one) = cold triathlete at the start line.

Not having DaveR1 there to pace me was definitely one of the reasons!! but two other triathletes went by me and I couldn't even stay on their legs.

Big picture: Training - avoiding the 'maximum effort' lengths in training. Scared to push it to the next level in terms of intensity. Too much comfort zone swimming. Mistaking quantity for quality. Far too few sessions where my arms are hanging off me at the end.



The swim was the start of it but the whole thing just felt like one step forward (Kilkee), two steps back.

Anytime I have gone into a National Series race where I am genuinely considered one of the favourites to win it I end up in second place.

I had put a lot of work into the swim and bike since Kilkee but both seemed to go backwards. I haven't been running much due to a stress fracture (aquajogging instead) so was happy enough with that time.

Also, the little things = chain got knocked off the bike running through the grass out of transition (my bike was hopping everywhere cos I didn't secure the shoes with elastics). I forgot to take my feet out of the shoes before the dismount line after the cycle. The road surface on the bike wasn't the best so it was hard to get into a good rhythm.

Most of it though is down to the manner of the beating. A 4 minute defeat is a demolition and it is pretty embarrasing even it was to a top / different class triathlete and sound lad like Stephen.

I don't mind getting angry though. If you don't get angry after a poor performance then it doesn't mean enough to you.

Thanks dude, appreciate the detailed reply.

littlemsfickle

peter kern wrote: »

she will not win the nat series and one would be very suprised if she wont medal in groomsport.

Why do you say that? I would have thought she has a good chance

Shedite27

When does Athlone registration/info open each year? Looking to do it for the first time this year and hopefully combine it with a weekend away.

Am I correct in saying that it's usually Registration on the Saturday closing at 12? followed by transition closing at 1(?) and Olympic race start bout 3? Any info available on previous years? Routes etc?