Heineken Cup draw for 2012/13 season, Tuesday 11.15am

Podge_irl

Flincher wrote: »

Exact fixtures for the first 4 rounds were out on the 20th of July last year, so I presume it will be something similar again.

Exact fixtures and order of matches come out at the same time?

Flincher

I think so.

I just went back through my emails and 20th of July was the date I booked flights and hotels for the away trip last year, and I'm fairly sure I booked them as soon as I had enough info (I booked Fri afternoon to Sun evening). Open to correction though.

Benny Cake

Good draw from a Munster point of view. As has been alluded to, they should be able to qualify if they can get things together.
Also, there is a distinct possibility that one Leinster or Clermont won't be in the quarters which will open things up for the rest of us....

vienne86

Flincher wrote: »

I think so.

I just went back through my emails and 20th of July was the date I booked flights and hotels for the away trip last year, and I'm fairly sure I booked them as soon as I had enough info (I booked Fri afternoon to Sun evening). Open to correction though.

I think you are right. Here is the announcement from last year on the Leinster web site: http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/tickets/8223.php

Sindri

thomond2006 wrote: »

Edinburgh are being underrated by a lot of posters here.

Possible Edinburgh first choice XV 2012-13

15 Tom Brown, 14 Lee Jones, 13 Ben Atiga, 12 Nick de Luca, 11 Tim Visser, 10 Greig Laidlaw, 9 Richie Rees ; 1 Allan Jacobsen, 2 Ross Ford, 3 WP Nel, 4 Isak van der Westhuizen, 5 Sean Cox, 6 Dave Denton, 7 Ross Rennie, 8 Netani Talei

From here: http://rugby-transfers.blogspot.be/2011/09/edinburgh-2012-13.html

Of their departures, only Paterson and Blair (a shadow of his former self and who couldn't get a Top14 contract) hurt them. The rest are all squad players.

They have some good signings like WP Nel, van der Westhuizen (first choice lock for Cheetahs), Rees is decent etc.

They're a decent side but they play some godawful rugby most of the time.

liammur

Well I don't think any of the provinces can complain, in fact I don't think there is any group of death this year, probably for the first time in years.

mikedragon32

liammur wrote: »

Well I don't think any of the provinces can complain, in fact I don't think there is any group of death this year, probably for the first time in years.

I think pool six is a tricky one for all concerned, except for Sale perhaps. The other three teams are all quite capable of beating each other and it may well come down to scores!

totallegend

liammur wrote: »

Well I don't think any of the provinces can complain, in fact I don't think there is any group of death this year, probably for the first time in years.

Did you miss the part where Leinster have to play Clermont? I would complain bitterly about that (if only someone would listen).

liammur

totallegend wrote: »

Did you miss the part where Leinster have to play Clermont? I would complain bitterly about that (if only someone would listen).

LOL, that made me laugh alright.

2 tough teams doesn't constitute a 'group of death'.

Group 6 is probably the tightest of the groups.

profitius

Toulouse, Ospreys, Treviso and Leicester is the group of death. Ok, Treviso are not great but it wouldn't surprise me to see them win one or two at home.

liammur

profitius wrote: »

Toulouse, Ospreys, Treviso and Leicester is the group of death. Ok, Treviso are not great but it wouldn't surprise me to see them win one or two at home.

You need 4 serious teams for the group of death. 2 teams will probably emerge from this group.

Tox56

liammur wrote: »

LOL, that made me laugh alright.

2 tough teams doesn't constitute a 'group of death'.

Group 6 is probably the tightest of the groups.

Not a group of death but its more than possible one of the two best teams in Europe won't even make the QF..

liammur

Tox56 wrote: »

Not a group of death but its more than possible one of the two best teams in Europe won't even make the QF..

I can't understand all this hype and fear leinster fans in particular have of clermont.

Shall we take a look at what they have achieved ?

1 french championship
1 H cup semi final.

And that's where their story ends.

Toulouse are current french champions for instance, clermont didn't even make the top 14 final this year.

Tox56

liammur wrote: »

I can't understand all this hype and fear leinster fans in particular have of clermont.

Shall we take a look at what they have achieved ?

1 french championship
1 H cup semi final.

And that's where their story ends.

Toulouse are current french champions for instance, clermont didn't even make the top 14 final this year.

They do have problems at the business end of the season all right, but they are such a good team, and they were a bicep away from the HEC Final (and probably victory).

thomond2006

liammur wrote: »

I can't understand all this hype and fear leinster fans in particular have of clermont.

Shall we take a look at what they have achieved ?

1 french championship
1 H cup semi final.

And that's where their story ends.

Toulouse are current french champions for instance, clermont didn't even make the top 14 final this year.

Clermont have been very close over the years, they've consistently been a top team. In 2008 and 2009 it took a then excellent Munster side to keep them out of the European reckoning, and then Leinster during the more recent seasons.

With respect, had Fofana grounded that try against Leinster I doubt you would have posted the above.

liammur

thomond2006 wrote: »

Clermont have been very close over the years, they've consistently been a top team. In 2008 and 2009 it took a then excellent Munster side to keep them out of the European reckoning, and then Leinster during the more recent seasons.

With respect, had Fofana grounded that try against Leinster I doubt you would have posted the above.

I never said they weren't a top team, in fact I rate them highly, but I certainly wouldn't be classing them as '1 of the 2 best teams in europe' considering their haul of silverware.

liammur

Tox56 wrote: »

They do have problems at the business end of the season all right, but they are such a good team, and they were a bicep away from the HEC Final (and probably victory).

Yes, very likely they'd have won the final, although I do question their mental strength on the big day. For this reason alone I rate Toulouse ahead of them.

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

Yes, very likely they'd have won the final, although I do question their mental strength on the big day. For this reason alone I rate Toulouse ahead of them.

Toulouse couldn't put away a desperately limited Edinburgh on their "big day"

matthew8

If we fear Clermont this much imagine what they think of us. They must be thinking "here we go again", knocked out 3 seasons in a row by us. We'll have to do the double on them to knock them out this year I think.

Monty Burnz

matthew8 wrote: »

If we fear Clermont this much imagine what they think of us. They must be thinking "here we go again", knocked out 3 seasons in a row by us. We'll have to do the double on them to knock them out this year I think.

Yeah, but there's an Ireland/NZ thing going on, only with less of a gap - think a sheet of paper rather than an encyclopaedia. They are going to beat Leinster sooner or later.

Sindri

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yeah, but there's an Ireland/NZ thing going on, only with less of a gap - think a sheet of paper rather than an encyclopaedia. They are going to beat Leinster sooner or later.

They'll beat us in the SMM I'd say. The Aviva game (I presume it will be in the Aviva) will be a cracker even though I'd prefer to play them in the RDS. I'd also wonder how mentally capable they feel after falling out of the Top 14 play offs and losing the semi against Leinster. They're a very good side and I'd say they'll be targeting the Leinster games as a huge morale and efficacy booster. I think they have something to prove in Europe (and more importantly to themselves) and this could be their year.

liammur

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Toulouse couldn't put away a desperately limited Edinburgh on their "big day"

Their big day was the Top 14 final and they duly won their 19th championship to go along with their 4 H cups.

Thank you for your contribution.

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

Their big day was the Top 14 final and they duly won their 19th championship to go along with their 4 H cups.

Thank you for your contribution.

no need to get narky

Truth is Toulouse and Clermont are much of a muchness right now

Toulouse have the bigger names but I'd far prefer to draw them than Clermont who in my view are a better more rounded side

Not sure how relevant Toulouse having a better trophy haul is either, Munster are far more successful than Clermont but wouldn't have gotten within an asses roar of them had they met this year

liammur

Fishooks12 wrote: »

no need to get narky

Truth is Toulouse and Clermont are much of a muchness right now

Toulouse have the bigger names but I'd far prefer to draw them than Clermont who in my view are a better more rounded side

narky ? On the contrary, I was praising you for knowing Toulouse lost away to a limited Edinburgh. However, I completely disagree with you that a q/final is a big day for Toulouse who have more honours than any other club in European rugby. 19 championships and 4 H cups.

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

narky ? On the contrary, I was praising you for knowing Toulouse lost away to a limited Edinburgh. However, I completely disagree with you that a q/final is a big day for Toulouse who have more honours than any other club in European rugby. 19 championships and 4 H cups.

Ah sarcasm, the lowest form of wit.

Look you can try and paint it anyway you like but Toulouse didn't lose the quarter because they didn't care, or because they're concentrating on the top 14. They lost it because they're not the side they were 3 years ago and went down to a pretty poor Scottish side with a fairly favorable semi draw lying in wait. The great Toulouse sides that obtained that great record you keep mentioning would have never lost that game.


Contrast this with Clermont who were literally a bicep from beating the best team in the history of the tournament and reaching a final they probably would have won

liammur

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Ah sarcasm, the lowest form of wit.

Look you can try and paint it anyway you like but Toulouse didn't lose the quarter because they didn't care, or because they're concentrating on the top 14. They lost it because they're not the side they were 3 years ago and went down to a pretty poor Scottish side with a fairly favorable semi draw lying in wait. The great Toulouse sides that obtained that great record you keep mentioning would have never lost that game.


Contrast this with Clermont who were literally a bicep from beating the best team in the history of the tournament and reaching a final they probably would have won

I'm not going to engage in an argument with you when you keep getting personal. Toulouse lost to Edinburgh in what rugby observers would regard as an upset. Proving they were the best in France they went onto to win the Top 14 after also topping the table over the regular season. Point proven. I can only assume you have followed rugby in the last year or two.
Consider that my last reply to you.

Gracelessly Tom

liammur wrote: »

I'm not going to engage in an argument with you when you keep getting personal. Toulouse lost to Edinburgh in what rugby observers would regard as an upset. Proving they were the best in France they went onto to win the Top 14 after also topping the table over the regular season. Point proven. I can only assume you have followed rugby in the last year or two.
Consider that my last reply to you.

Wow, "Hello pot? This is the kettle, you're black."

While the Top 14 is a major major deal for Toulouse, make no mistake, the H Cup is as important. So to say they prefer the Top 14 is nonsense.

The reason they limped out to Edinburgh is as Fishooks said, they are not the team they once were. Rebuilding needs to be done for them to rate as favourites again in Europe.

They also underrated Edinburgh and it's only when they lose in Europe that the fans "don't care" about the H Cup as much as the Top 14.

Quint2010

matthew8 wrote: »

If we fear Clermont this much imagine what they think of us. They must be thinking "here we go again", knocked out 3 seasons in a row by us. We'll have to do the double on them to knock them out this year I think.

This is what Schmidt will be setting as the target for the group stages. Put them out so we wont meet them in a one off later on.

justsomebloke

screw that I want to meet them in the Final

sydthebeat

liammur wrote: »

I never said they weren't a top team, in fact I rate them highly, but I certainly wouldn't be classing them as '1 of the 2 best teams in europe' considering their haul of silverware.

as per the heineken cup... i would have rated clermont second behind leinster in europe currently.

liammur

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

Wow, "Hello pot? This is the kettle, you're black."

While the Top 14 is a major major deal for Toulouse, make no mistake, the H Cup is as important. So to say they prefer the Top 14 is nonsense.

The reason they limped out to Edinburgh is as Fishooks said, they are not the team they once were. Rebuilding needs to be done for them to rate as favourites again in Europe.

They also underrated Edinburgh and it's only when they lose in Europe that the fans "don't care" about the H Cup as much as the Top 14.

The only post I see they 'prefer the top 14' is your post, so maybe try in the future not to misrepresent someone.

liammur

sydthebeat wrote: »

as per the heineken cup... i would have rated clermont second behind leinster in europe currently.

But on what basis?

They haven't even made a final, and let's be honest, they couldn't even win a home semifinal this year. They were close in the end in that match, but I would have to say had they won it, it would have been an injustice for a completely shambolic 2nd half performance.

Fishooks12

I'll never forget watching this game on television. For me it sums up French rugby at its best, and is a stark reminder of how far it has fallen in terms of styles.

If Toulouse get back to anywhere this level then it might be easier to argue that they're ahead of Clermont

Quint2010

Psychologically the semi final defeat this year would have done Clermont huge damage. This year was their big chance and they blew it. They will fear us alot more than we will fear them.

liammur

Quint2010 wrote: »

Psychologically the semi final defeat this year would have done Clermont huge damage. This year was their big chance and they blew it. They will fear us alot more than we will fear them.

I agree, and they are an ageing team as well, I would expect leinster to win both legs. A team like toulon would probably be a tougher draw at this stage.

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

I agree, and they are an ageing team as well, I would expect leinster to win both legs. A team like toulon would probably be a tougher draw at this stage.

Toulon are an older team. And played some woeful rugby this year

I'd fancy Connaught to get something out of the game in the Sportsground if they continue their form from the end of the season

Tox56

Or you could look at it that Clermont are going to be out for revenge, their supporters are going to be baying for blood at the SMM and the team will really be up for it.

We could win both legs but I think the most likely outcome is two home wins

Quint2010

Tox56 wrote: »

Or you could look at it that Clermont are going to be out for revenge, their supporters are going to be baying for blood at the SMM and the team will really be up for it.

We could win both legs but I think the most likely outcome is two home wins

They were out for revenge this year too and were beaten. Nothing more damaging to a teams morale.

Gracelessly Tom

liammur wrote: »

Their big day was the Top 14 final and they duly won their 19th championship to go along with their 4 H cups.

Thank you for your contribution.

liammur wrote: »

However, I completely disagree with you that a q/final is a big day for Toulouse who have more honours than any other club in European rugby. 19 championships and 4 H cups.

liammur wrote: »

The only post I see they 'prefer the top 14' is your post, so maybe try in the future not to misrepresent someone.

You certainly seem to allude to the fact! You appear to say that a 1/4 of the H Cup is no biggy for Toulouse. I guarantee you it is.

Maybe instead of being so dismissive and condescending of posters you could make your points clearer?

To get to their big day of the top 14 final (your words, not mine) they first had to come through a semi and the league campaign. In previous years they would even have had to come through the barrage (in effect a 1/4 final). Exactly as they would in Europe to get to their big day in the final. To say that the 1/4 final is not a big day is ridiculous imho, as without winning them you don't get to the finals.

Tox56

Quint2010 wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

Or you could look at it that Clermont are going to be out for revenge, their supporters are going to be baying for blood at the SMM and the team will really be up for it.

We could win both legs but I think the most likely outcome is two home wins

They were out for revenge this year too and were beaten. Nothing more damaging to a teams morale.

They felt barnes had a hand in that defeat, whether he did or not doesn't matter, that sense of injustice will definitely fire them up

That and the frustration at coming so close, I don't think that loss will have a negative effect on them whatsoever

liammur

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

You certainly seem to allude to the fact! You appear to say that a 1/4 of the H Cup is no biggy for Toulouse. I guarantee you it is.

Maybe instead of being so dismissive and condescending of posters you could make your points clearer?

To get to their big day of the top 14 final (your words, not mine) they first had to come through a semi and the league campaign. In previous years they would even have had to come through the barrage (in effect a 1/4 final). Exactly as they would in Europe to get to their big day in the final. To say that the 1/4 final is not a big day is ridiculous imho, as without winning them you don't get to the finals.

Unfirtunately, I have to be dismissive of someone like yourself when you misquote and attempt to misrepresent someone.
Seeing as Toulouse have played in so many quarter finals, I would doubt we'd call it their 'big day'. That's the key point.
They play in a quarter final practically every year. Of course they wanted to win it but winning or losing a quarter final won't define Toulouse as a club, they are the Real Madrid of rugby.

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

Unfirtunately, I have to be dismissive of someone like yourself when you misquote and attempt to misrepresent someone.
Seeing as Toulouse have played in so many quarter finals, I would doubt we'd call it their 'big day'. That's the key point.
They play in a quarter final practically every year. Of course they wanted to win it but winning or losing a quarter final won't define Toulouse as a club, they are the Real Madrid of rugby.

Good analogy

That would make Leinster the Barcelona.Big names too but in recent times have acquired the cutting edge their rivals seem to have lost

Then you have Clermont, the Bayern Munich. Not as flashy as the other two but have a grit and determination that makes them just as dangerous

liammur

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Good analogy

That would make Leinster the Barcelona. Big names too but in recent times have acquired the cutting edge their rivals seem to have lost

Then you have Clermont, the Bayern Munich. Not as flashy as the other two but have a grit and determination that makes them just as dangerous

Yes, now I can agree with you. The big concern I have with clermont is they have flopped on their biggest day apart from last season when they won their first championship.

I think a semi-final at home for clermont is bigger for them as a club is far bigger than it is for toulouse. A bit like a few years ago, leinster had to beat munster in that semi, it defined them and they've gone on to great success. This year was clermont's chance, it was on a plate for them in their centenary year and they flopped.

Tox56

liammur wrote: »

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Good analogy

That would make Leinster the Barcelona. Big names too but in recent times have acquired the cutting edge their rivals seem to have lost

Then you have Clermont, the Bayern Munich. Not as flashy as the other two but have a grit and determination that makes them just as dangerous

Yes, now I can agree with you. The big concern I have with clermont is they have flopped on their biggest day apart from last season when they won their first championship.

I think a semi-final at home for clermont is bigger for them as a club is far bigger than it is for toulouse. A bit like a few years ago, leinster had to beat munster in that semi, it defined them and they've gone on to great success. This year was clermont's chance, it was on a plate for them in their centenary year and they flopped.

They hardly flopped, they were playing the greatest team in HEC history with a
dodgy referee and were inches away from winning. It was only last year they beat Leinster in the HEC, the only team to do so for the last 14(?) matches, that includes Toulouse.

liammur

Tox56 wrote: »

They hardly flopped, they were playing the greatest team in HEC history with a
dodgy referee and were inches away from winning. It was only last year they beat Leinster in the HEC, the only team to do so for the last 14(?) matches, that includes Toulouse.

Firstly, I think Leicester tigers of 2001 were by far the greatest we've seen. For instance, they had many world cup winners and were able to win back to back H cups and win their domestic league.
Secondly, clermont were outplayed for the entire 2nd half apart from a late spurt. The scoreline flattered them imo.

Tox56

liammur wrote: »

Firstly, I think Leicester tigers of 2001 were by far the greatest we've seen. For instance, they had many world cup winners and were able to win back to back H cups and win their domestic league.
Secondly, clermont were outplayed for the entire 2nd half apart from a late spurt. The scoreline flattered them imo.

I don't know how you can deny as a single team, a team that has won 3 in 4 Heineken Cups is the best there has been, when only 1 other team has won more than twice in their entire history.

Secondly, Leinster had a 10-15 minute spurt where they built up a score, but Clermont were in control for at least as long as Leinster if you take the match as a whole. They were certainly not outplayed "the entire second half".

EDIT: Got a fact wrong

liammur

Tox56 wrote: »

I don't know how you can deny as a single team, a team that has won 3 in 4 Heineken Cups is the best there has been, when only 1 other team has won more than twice in their entire history.

Secondly, Leinster had a 10-15 minute spurt where they built up a score, but Clermont were in control for at least as long as Leinster if you take the match as a whole. They were certainly not outplayed "the entire second half".

EDIT: Got a fact wrong

It's only my opinion, but that Leicester team were practically unbeatable. They provided England with a platform whereby they were able to go down and beat NZ in a test series and then win a world cup. Leinster on the other hand have failed to win their own league and I'm not sure the standard is as high now as it should be i.e. English teams are very weak.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

**** no, I can't wait to experience it!

+1

SMM on match day in December 2010 was nothing short of epic. The noise was simply incredible. I'd promised the OH that I wasn't doing any away trips this season because we're getting married next year. But feck that.

liammur wrote: »

I never said they weren't a top team, in fact I rate them highly, but I certainly wouldn't be classing them as '1 of the 2 best teams in europe' considering their haul of silverware.

I think Clermont have been unfortunate over the years but given the last 2 seasons I'm not sure who I'd rate higher than them (other than Leinster). Toulouse, for all their trophies, looked very average in Europe last season. Leicester were comprehensively beaten by Ulster showing they aren't what they once were. They can be a bit shaky away from home at times, but the performance against Saracens in the QF showed they can do the business on the road too.

Remember they have been knocked out by the best squad in European rugby history (I hate people calling Leinster that, but many pundits and fans are) for the last 3 seasons in a row (2 of those occasions being ridiculously close) and are the only side in the last 2 seasons to beat Leinster in Europe.

Tox56

liammur wrote: »

It's only my opinion, but that Leicester team were practically unbeatable. They provided England with a platform whereby they were able to go down and beat NZ in a test series and then win a world cup. Leinster on the other hand have failed to win their own league and I'm not sure the standard is as high now as it should be i.e. English teams are very weak.

Fair enough it is only an opinion, but just have a look at the "Other records and trivia" section on here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster_Rugby#Other_Records_.26_Trivia

Winning is the only record that really counts I know, and some of that is a bit trivial, but it's still pretty darn impressive.

liammur

Tox56 wrote: »

Fair enough it is only an opinion, but just have a look at the "Other records and trivia" section on here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster_Rugby#Other_Records_.26_Trivia

Winning is the only record that really counts I know, and some of that is a bit trivial, but it's still pretty darn impressive.

But if winning is the only record that counts, that surely proves my point regarding Clermont.

Don't get me wrong, I rate Leinster very highly, just think that leicester team would do a job on them up front. But as a previous poster said, there are a few factors too, like luck, who you get in the draw etc, and I def agree clermont have had their fair share of bad luck over the years. Munster too, with a lot of away semi-final draws. Small things like that can make a big difference to the records.