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BBC iPlayer: The Paras (1982)
Comments
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whitelines wrote: »Regarding the high lighted section - it's actually completely wrong. A large state can simply ethnically cleanse a small minority should it decide. The UK would have had very few problems doing this with Northern Ireland's RC population, had it so wished. In fact, provisional plans were discussed at cabinet level. The good news for Northern Ireland's Nationalist population is that this wasn't the solution implemented, for whatever reason.
I would love to see that. Could you provide links to it please?0 -
whitelines wrote: »Regarding the high lighted section - it's actually completely wrong. A large state can simply ethnically cleanse a small minority should it decide. The UK would have had very few problems doing this with Northern Ireland's RC population, had it so wished. In fact, provisional plans were discussed at cabinet level. The good news for Northern Ireland's Nationalist population is that this wasn't the solution implemented, for whatever reason.
True and ye have the history to prove it.0 -
The reason the British eventually cornered the Provo's was down to old fashioned intelligence work and infiltration. Scared 20 year old squaddies beating up cider swigging teens didn't matter a fook and only created more recruits for the provo's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRJGfe0k7rIwhitelines wrote: »Finally, I don't accept that intelligence work alone broke The IRA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHKFzPmDjAo0 -
Yes cornered. I think that most everyone (with a half a brain anyway) will agree that the PIRA where on the ropes in the 90's. They had been infiltrated right up to the highest level, they where losing support from the population and Americas blind eye to fundraising was beginning to change.
They where not defeated but the leadership realised that they had gotten as far with the Armalite as they were going to get and a change in tactic was needed i.e. political means solely.0 -
Yes cornered. I think that most everyone (with a half a brain anyway) will agree that the PIRA where on the ropes in the 90's. They had been infiltrated right up to the highest level, they where losing support from the population and Americas blind eye to fundraising was beginning to change.They where not defeated but the leadership realised that they had gotten as far with the Armalite as they were going to get and a change in tactic was needed i.e. political means solely.0
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I would love to see that. Could you provide links to it please?
Here's a summary from The Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1417587/Secret-plan-for-the-new-partition-of-Ireland.html
The original cabinet archive material is probably available on line under the thirty year rule if you search for it.0 -
With apologies to r3nu4l for the OT post.
Johnny, would you mind my asking what was the attitude towards Irishmen both through recruit training & within the Paras in the early 1980s given that the troubles were very much in full-swing & appearing to escalate further.
Obviously no army is one big happy family and personal attitudes of individual recruits/soldiers aside, was there any real animosity shown or attempts to isolate/exclude the Irish recruits - either from other recruits or the DS - to the point of "encouraging" them to quit, beyond what the DS would typically do to weed out those not up to the task?
Good question, another thing I would be interested in hearing is how the Irish lads found/managed serving in NI if they were allowed to?...0 -
thecommietommy wrote: »So are you saying that the Brit general and Tony as well as their many advisors have only half a brain !!!! I may not like Tony the coniving ****, but the sly git had a very full brain unfortunatley. Individuals with half a brain, conspiracy theorists, British army groupies etc like to push the British propaganda line that the IRA were on their last legs etc, something I grew up with hearing from the early 1970's. Complete nonsense of course.
I can agree with you on this, neither side had an outright win, Sinn Fein and the IRA came to the conclusion that demographics would get them to a united Ireland with the ever rising Catholic population (you may/may not agree with this, but I don't want to get into a political debate over the merits of the Good Friday Agreement etc ) would see a United Ireland in two or at the most three decades ( Catholics are already a majority in schoools at the moment and with an ageing/declining Proteastan pop.)
If you read my earlier posts I think you'll find that I have stated from the beginning that the PIRA would never have been defeated in NI. I don't think it's brit fanboy stuff to say that the PIRA leadership realised that militarily things had run their course and that they were starting to be put on the back foot. They adopted the USMC euphemism that you don't retreat you just fight in a different direction, which they are doing politically.
Wheeling out a 30sec 1980's edited video clip with a general saying they won't defeat the IRA mean fook all either.0 -
thecommietommy wrote: »
I can agree with you on this, neither side had an outright win, Sinn Fein and the IRA came to the conclusion that demographics would get them to a united Ireland with the ever rising Catholic population (you may/may not agree with this, but I don't want to get into a political debate over the merits of the Good Friday Agreement etc ) would see a United Ireland in two or at the most three decades ( Catholics are already a majority in schoools at the moment and with an ageing/declining Proteastan pop.)
I'm afraid that theory doesn't stand close examination. PIRA had available the demographic projections from a very early date, yet they continued the violence into the early nineties. I think that demographics were only a part of the explanation for The IRA collapse. Perhaps the likes of Adams under the tutelage of John Hume did buy into demographic change delivering Irish Unity, but I'd be amazed if PIRA as a whole did. In fact I'd be staggered.0 -
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If you read my earlier posts I think you'll find that I have stated from the beginning that the PIRA would never have been defeated in NI. I don't think it's brit fanboy stuff to say that the PIRA leadership realised that militarily things had run their course and that they were starting to be put on the back foot. They adopted the USMC euphemism that you don't retreat you just fight in a different direction, which they are doing politically.
Wheeling out a 30sec 1980's edited video clip with a general saying they won't defeat the IRA mean fook all either.
Your comment on PIRA switching from violence to politics needs some expansion. The key issue is why PIRA switched. If PIRA switched to a political path because it unilaterally reached the decision that politics would achieve strategic success without violence, then it could feel it had won some sort of victory (at least within it's collective mind). However, if PIRA abandoned violence due to third party pressure and switched to politics as a fall back position, then it can only be assumed that PIRA's cause was actually undermined (at least within it's collective mind). In either case, of course, PIRA perceptions might differ from those of other parties.
You're correct about our friend's videos by the way. He's ignoring the operational role of the security forces in NI and talking as if the security forces were fighting a war rather than keeping the peace. Soldiers can't 'win' a peace keeping mission.0 -
whitelines wrote: »There's different means of applying 'pain and hardship' to a terrorist host community. It can be applied legally through internment, saturating whole areas with troops, repeated search and seize operations, curfews, and can advance through to the destruction of properties that might or where used for terrorist purposes. There are many, many, more oppressive techniques that can be utilised for this purpose - most beyond the scope of what The UK State was prepared to countenance within NI.As for Loughinisland and Dublin, those operations were not carried out by state forces, but by militant Loyalists. Their view would have been that they added something extra to the process, going further than the legal forces of The Crown, in an attempt to undermine support for PIRA within the broader Nationalist community across The Island of Ireland.Certainly, within an international context, the use of paramilitary 'death squads' to terrorise insurgents and their supporters would be the norm. Generally though, such auxiliaries would fall fully within state control. In NI, for a number of reasons, Crown forces were unable to act in a similar manner and as a result forces outside state control felt obliged, for ideological reasons, to carry out such operations themselves.
Collusion between Security Forces and Paramilitaries
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/collusion/index.html0 -
whitelines wrote: »Responding to point 1, 'They fought one of the worlds most advanced and formidable armies to a standstill for nearly thirty years' is hyperbole of the worst sort. UK State forces acted as police support during 'the troubles', operating under civil law, they couldn't even discharge their weapons unless lives were threatened. If they were one of the world's 'most advanced and formidable armies', they certainly didn't act that way in NI.Responding to point 2, 'They made large area's of the UK no go areas that could only be accessed by air'. Well, of course they did. What would you have had The UK Army do? Impose a scorched earth policy in South Armagh? Again, they were acting as an auxiliary police force, not a fighting army.Responding to point 3, 'They carried out some very well planned actions deep behind enemy lines. By these I refer to the mortar attack on 10 Downing St and the Brighton bombing'. These attacks were made possible because The UK State allowed PIRA to operate effectively at will, deploying The UK Army under the rule of law - civil law. In such circumstances it was inevitable that PIRA would achieve some results.Responding to point 4, 'They bled the UK government white financially'. They did indeed. In fact, you could say that instead of bullets, The Nationalist community in NI was given silver.
Indeed Sinn Fein/IRA is still bleeding the British state as they have amongst the highest expenses claimed in Westminister which they don't even attendResponding to point 5, 'They forced repeated governments to the negotiation table'. They certainly created an environment in which The UK State abandoned democratic norms in NI.
The reality is that PIRA were a committed and determined terrorist organisation, with commendable staying power, but one which operated within the most benign environments imaginable. Their leaders were free to stroll around NI preaching subversion in public. It's hard to see this being applicable anywhere outside a handful of western nations. Certainly not in The US. Still, you fight what's put in front of you.
Responding to your final point - some do more bad things than others.0 -
whitelines wrote: »Regarding the high lighted section - it's actually completely wrong. A large state can simply ethnically cleanse a small minority should it decide.
http://www.kwintessential.co.uk/articles/iceland/Cod-War-in-Iceland/527The UK would have had very few problems doing this with Northern Ireland's RC population, had it so wished. In fact, provisional plans were discussed at cabinet level. The good news for Northern Ireland's Nationalist population is that this wasn't the solution implemented, for whatever reason.
As the saying goes, the British bulldog can bark but it's got no teeth to bite !!!!!0
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