Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

profitius

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Except not all rugby fans will cancel sky subscriptions over the Heineken cup and a lot of French and english DO watch the Heineken cup.

You're not really basing that argument on reality, rather a fantasy world where english and French people don't care about the Heineken, and Celtic people don't care about multitude of other sports and entertainment on the sky subscription!

Its not based on fantasy. A large percentage of rugby fans will have to pay over €400 for sky sports per year.

Yes English and French people watch it. I never said they didn't. The percentage of English people paying for sky sports to watch it compared to the Celtic percentage is the point I'm making.

I watch other sports on sky occasionally but I don't pay for it to watch those sports.

justsomebloke wrote: »

the aviva premiership TV rights are split between ESPN and SKY with ESPN being the main rights holder (Sky didn't have rights to show the final). So if English fans are getting sky it isn't just for the Aviva Premiership.

Yeah they might want to watch a higher quality of rugby involving Leinster Toulouse etc.

You'd have admit a higher percentage of Irish fans would pay for sky sports to watch the HEC than English fans. Leaving aside soccer etc, English rugby fans pay to watch the AP and HEC while Irish rugby fans pay to watch the HEC. So every Irish subscriber is paying more for the HEC than English subscribers are.

The HEC used to be on RTE here. Theres a reason sky wanted exclusive rights to the HEC in Ireland a few years back and the HEC has gotten even more popular these days.

The real shame is that most of the money going to sky from Irish subscribers will not benefit Irish rugby. I'd love to see an Irish rugby channel.

irishbucsfan

profitius wrote: »

Its not based on fantasy. A large percentage of rugby fans will have to pay over €400 for sky sports per year.

Yes English and French people watch it. I never said they didn't. The percentage of English people paying for sky sports to watch it compared to the Celtic percentage is the point I'm making.

I watch other sports on sky occasionally but I don't pay for it to watch those sports.



Yeah they might want to watch a higher quality of rugby involving Leinster Toulouse etc.

You'd have admit a higher percentage of Irish fans would pay for sky sports to watch the HEC than English fans. Leaving aside soccer etc, English rugby fans pay to watch the AP and HEC while Irish rugby fans pay to watch the HEC. So every Irish subscriber is paying more for the HEC than English subscribers are.

The HEC used to be on RTE here. Theres a reason sky wanted exclusive rights to the HEC in Ireland a few years back and the HEC has gotten even more popular these days.

The real shame is that most of the money going to sky from Irish subscribers will not benefit Irish rugby. I'd love to see an Irish rugby channel.

You are guessing at all these statistics though.

Also you can't just leave aside soccer, the Premiership is the main reason people in Ireland subscribe to Sky even more so for the Welsh and even more so for the Scots (with their SPL). Then you add the Champions league soccer onto that. And if Sky weren't paying for H Cup rights they might well turn around and outbid ESPN for Aviva and Top 14 rights anyway. There's also the international rugby that Sky show (at both senior and u20 level).

So losing the Irish fans would be a loss for Sky but not as big as you are making out.

Then you look at where they would stand on this issue. English and French teams are currently at a disadvantage due to the structure of the RDP. Your judgement is based on current results, but any potential final involving any French teams, English teams or combination thereof is going to be far more valuable to Sky than a final being watched by smaller numbers from any Celtic nation. So a fairer competition which gives the English/French teams a better chance is far more lucrative to Sky. So they will back the proposals on the table IF they are asked (although I doubt the Unions want them involved).

Not only that, but this is before the rhetoric of this power struggle kicks in. What happens when the English and French fans start to really consider, with the weight of their unions behind them, the disparities that exist in the current system? Their opinion of the competition could start to sour. And having English and French viewers switching off in their droves is the very last thing BSB would risk. And having them switching OVER to their domestic competition's channels would be even worse!

justsomebloke

profitius wrote: »

The real shame is that most of the money going to sky from Irish subscribers will not benefit Irish rugby. I'd love to see an Irish rugby channel.

no the problem is that most of the money is going to pay for the soccer premiership rights, so fans from all the countries are being screwed by Sky. However Irish rugby benefits more then English Rugby does from the Sky deal as proportionately we get more money then they do

Winters

Does anyone know the value of the current ERC Sky deal?

Sky just paid €3.72 billion for 3 years of English football. While that figure is incredible there are also the downsides. I dare think how rugby would go if that much money was thrown at it.

I suppose we have to remind ourselves that the Soccer and Rugby markets are simply miles apart.

profitius

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You are guessing at all these statistics though.

Also you can't just leave aside soccer, the Premiership is the main reason people in Ireland subscribe to Sky even more so for the Welsh and even more so for the Scots (with their SPL). Then you add the Champions league soccer onto that. And if Sky weren't paying for H Cup rights they might well turn around and outbid ESPN for Aviva and Top 14 rights anyway. There's also the international rugby that Sky show (at both senior and u20 level).

So losing the Irish fans would be a loss for Sky but not as big as you are making out.

I was taking that into account. I left it aside so it wouldn't be too confusing for people.

I think theres a large number of people in the Celtic countries who pay for sky just for the HEC compared to English people. Thats what it boils down to.

There are people who watch more than rugby but thats a different matter, especially considering there would be a greater percentage of English people who would watch the premiership soccer. GAA is the main game in this country and thats not on Sky.

[quote-Irishbucsfan]
Then you look at where they would stand on this issue. English and French teams are currently at a disadvantage due to the structure of the RDP. Your judgement is based on current results, but any potential final involving any French teams, English teams or combination thereof is going to be far more valuable to Sky than a final being watched by smaller numbers from any Celtic nation. So a fairer competition which gives the English/French teams a better chance is far more lucrative to Sky. So they will back the proposals on the table IF they are asked (although I doubt the Unions want them involved).[/quote]

Irish people paying over €400 per year for sky sports is a lot more valuable to sky than who gets into the final. Sure they might miss out on advertising money etc but thats nothing compared to the money they get from Sky Sports subscribers.

irishbucsfan wrote:

Not only that, but this is before the rhetoric of this power struggle kicks in. What happens when the English and French fans start to really consider, with the weight of their unions behind them, the disparities that exist in the current system? Their opinion of the competition could start to sour. And having English and French viewers switching off in their droves is the very last thing BSB would risk. And having them switching OVER to their domestic competition's channels would be even worse!

I agree with that point. Irish teams do have an advantage although its only at the later stages of the competition. In the first few rounds the Irish players are usually a bit undercooked compared to the English and French who are more battle hardened at that stage.

I think there might have to be some compromise but I would hope its not at the expense of the smaller teams. To grow rugby we need as many teams as possible.

One good proposal is for a new 3rd tier competition for European teams outside the 6 nations. That would be great.

justsomebloke wrote: »

no the problem is that most of the money is going to pay for the soccer premiership rights, so fans from all the countries are being screwed by Sky. However Irish rugby benefits more then English Rugby does from the Sky deal as proportionately we get more money then they do

I agree with that bit.

Winters

Top clubs in England and France are threatening to quit the Heineken Cup and organise a rival competition as they believe the current format is weighted too heavily in favour of the Celtic nations.

Leinster and Munster have won five of the last seven Heineken Cups between them, with Leinster winning three of the last four.

Their rivals in England and France believe that is partly a result of a qualification system that allows them to rest their players during the RaboDirect Pro12 season.

Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty told the Guardian: "Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification.

"The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.

"So far, the response from the other countries has been slow, even though we are not sabre-rattling.

"We have not been locked in talks and there is no meeting about the issue until the end of next month.

"Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit-based - the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part."

The English and French sides believe no more than six Pro12 teams should qualify, although that would put at risk the involvement of Scottish and Italian sides who currently qualify automatically.

"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro12," McCafferty added.

"It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying.

"Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly-formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup."

McCafferty said he was not prepared to do anything to damage the Aviva Premiership in order to change the qualification system for the Heineken Cup, as the Premiership accounts for 80% of revenues compared to 20% from Europe.

"ERC should know that we are serious and while the issue has to be resolved, everyone has to realise we cannot carry on as we are," he said.

"If it is not, we would go to an Anglo-French competition and if others wanted to join us, fair enough."

ERC has planned talks for September on the issue.

"We have held meetings with all our shareholders and asked them to draw up proposals which will be considered at next month's meeting," said a spokesman.

"Notice was served by the French and English clubs and the French Rugby Federation at the beginning of June and it was agreed at a board meeting a few days afterwards that we would have a workshop in September after holding briefings with everyone.

"We do not want to enter a war of words with Premiership Rugby, but we have been working away in the background and we are in the second phase of the consultation process."

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/2012/0823/334601-heineken-cup-under-boycott-threat/

One of my responses to McCafferty regarding that article is that he doesnt seem to grasp the fact that the South East of England is not a rugby union and has no vote in the ERC.

Still, a worrying view from English rugby.

ongarite

Sounds like they are pretty serious in their threat this time.

ray jay

The idea of reducing the competition to 20 teams was French originally, right? It looks like they have settled on a more unified set of demands. I have no idea why they want to get rid of 4 teams though, it's not like it will reduce the number of rounds.


Seeing the revenue breakdown between the Premiership and HC is also interesting. It would be very informative to see similar figures for the Pro 12 and Top 14.

Tox56

Who cares anymore, let them do it, Leinster will continue to operate as they already do.

I will be interested to see the response from them if an Irish team wins under new rules.

Winters

ray jay wrote: »

The idea of reducing the competition to 20 teams was French originally, right? It looks like they have settled on a more unified set of demands. I have no idea why they want to get rid of 4 teams though, it's not like it will reduce the number of rounds.


Seeing the revenue breakdown between the Premiership and HC is also interesting. It would be very informative to see similar figures for the Pro 12 and Top 14.

It might be part of their threat, i.e. something they could back down on?

If the Pro12 teams have such an advantage how come only the Irish clubs have really benefited? Success is not without its downsides it seems.

Edinburgh last season and Zebre this season are certainly good examples of the English and French argument.

A-Train

The English are annoyed that the Irish teams ( Leinster and Munster) have won the 5 out of the last 7 because they don't have to try that hard in the Pro12. But don't mention the fact that under there propose Pro12 top 6 qualification they would have still qualified.

It is worrying that they are pushing this agenda, there taking their ball home!

tolosenc

Leinster played the seconds for a host of Pro12 games last season and still finished 1st, quite comfortably.

DeDoc

I'd imagine the logic on the 20 teams goes like this:

We want a bigger slice of the pie. We argue that 'fairness' demands equal representation from each league, at 6 teams each (remaining two being winners of HEC and Amlin). We (english and French) should therefore get 1/3 of the pie each (instead of 1/6 at present). Furthermore reducing the groups from 6 to 5 would mean that 3/5 second place teams would qualify for the lucrative knockouts, so we have some insurance

Winters

A-Train wrote: »

The English are annoyed that the Irish teams ( Leinster and Munster) have won the 5 out of the last 7 because they don't have to try that hard in the Pro12. But don't mention the fact that under there propose Pro12 top 6 qualification they would have still qualified.

tolosenc wrote: »

Leinster played the seconds for a host of Pro12 games last season and still finished 1st, quite comfortably.

I think their counterargument to these points would be that if all the Pro12 teams had played their strongest 15 in every league game then a top place finish wouldn't be guaranteed for Leinster or Munster. However, did the IRFU complain when the French and English teams dominated? No, they improved.

Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification.

I would dispute that, its a player welfare issue that would be in place regardless. The lack of quality depth in the AP is a direct result of the English teams not blooding enough young players.

Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit-based - the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part.

It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying.

Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly-formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup.

Valid points in the case of Zebre but a political nightmare as the Italians will fight to maintain the FIR run Zebre's HEC spot.

I expect to hear a LnR statement next..

irishbucsfan

tolosenc wrote: »

Leinster played the seconds for a host of Pro12 games last season and still finished 1st, quite comfortably.

Leinster played their 2nds absolutely. Against other team's 2nds. And Leinster's 2nds won the battle of the 2nds! Comparatively, when Leicester had their 1sts away last season they had to play other team's 1sts, and they lost. And Leicester's depth and academy is as good as (if not better than) ours, something I have first hand experience of. But if we played our 2nds team against the 1st teams of most other clubs in the Rabo, we'd lose as well.

Why were they playing other team's 2nds? Because those other teams were guaranteed Heineken Cup rugby this season anyway. Which is the point. Celtic teams use a semesterised conditioning program and aim for the Heineken Cup. To a point where we intentionally schedule the Leinster-Munster game before the Heineken Cup, not because of the important of the game, but because of the importance of having a game that might actually mean something before the real rugby starts. Because god knows a game against anyone else wouldn't be good enough for us! English and French teams have to play full seasons of rugby. And then they have to play European games against teams' who have been targeting them for weeks while they've been focusing on their bread and butter. Look at Treviso/Biarritz last season.

How many times did Leinster perform to their full potential in the Rabo 12 Regular Season? Not even once, they never had to. You look at what Leicester had to go through last season just to be sure of a playoff place and you start to see where things are uneven. That is their problem with the way the Rabo is run. Is it their prerogative to issue demands to us on how we organise our league system? Absolutely not! However, it is completely up to them whether they want to be involved in a competition with us, and if we want the Heineken Cup to remain, we need to come up with something that makes everyone happy. And let's not forget the benefits a stronger domestic league does for us, regardless of what it does for them.

I also think, from a financial perspective, they are looking for a more fair distribution of the money based on where the fans are. A smaller number of teams would give them that. Which again is fair, even if it unfortunately will mean less money for Irish rugby. If they're correct about the imbalance in where the rights money for the HEC is coming from, then I don't see how anyone could possibly have an argument against that.

To some extent, Irish club rugby is riding the crest of a bubble at the moment, thanks to the inequalities in the way the AP, Top 14 and RDP12 are run. Fans don't want to see or admit that, fair enough. I'll be happy when this is all over with, the changes that need to be made are made, and Leinster can compete with the best teams in Europe in a competition that gives everyone the same opportunity to win.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

To some extent, Irish club rugby is riding the crest of a bubble at the moment, thanks to the inequalities in the way the AP, Top 14 and RDP12 are run. Fans don't want to see or admit that, fair enough. I'll be happy when this is all over with, the changes that need to be made are made, and Leinster can compete with the best teams in Europe in a competition that gives everyone the same opportunity to win.

That's an easy conclusion to come to, and there is some truth in it, but it's impact is exaggerated (in the case of Leinster anyway, Ulster did benefit from the Rabo last year)

Leinster could mix and match their 1st and 2nd XV's in the new proposed league and still comfortably qualify, almost certainly in the top 4 too.

All I really care about is Leinster and how they get on. Although Irish success is good, as long as Leinster could compete on both fronts in a more competitive league (which I'm sure they would), I'll be happy. Arguably Leinster 2nd XV is better than many Rabo teams first XV.

These changes would only impact the Scottish/Italian teams, one or two of the Welsh teams, and possibly Ulster.

Of those, only really Ulster (and Edinburgh last year) have had any success when it comes to the HEC.

Leinster are winning HEC's because of their quality of players and style of play. These new rule changes might reduce the number of All-Ireland finals, but almost certainly not the number of Irish winners/finalists.

profitius

I remember the days when English and French teams dominated the HEC. They said it was because of their domestic leagues being hard and the Celtic league was too easy and a mickey mouse league. Now that Irish teams have won it a few times recently its because the Rabo league is too easy.

When will the Rabo get the credit it deserves? Sure Leinster won it by doing the exact same as Leicester, rotating their squad. When Leinster do it its called putting out the second team, when Leicester do it its called squad rotation.

I can't see them getting much from the 4 Rabo countries. A French English tournament wouldn't have half the prestige as the HEC.

DeDoc

English and French teams regularly rotate their players too. England in particular have a player welfare agreement also, albeit not quite as structured as ours.

This is an attempt to grab more money. Simple as. All the other bluster is just that, and doesn't stand up to any singificant scrutiny - something our fourth estate unfortunately is seemingly lacking the will and diligence to undertake.
It is also worth pointing out that the Rabo league supplies the overwhelming majority of the players for 4 international teams. The other leagues supply one (plus a few 'exiles')

I'm confident however that the Rabo organisers and ERC together can see the value in having all the teams involved. I doubt Sky will be too enamoured at the idea of an Anglo-French cup - they'll want Munster and Leinster and Ospreys etc. I think sense will prevail and we'll see some sop (but hopefully not too much) given to the cry-babies.

irishbucsfan

profitius wrote: »

When will the Rabo get the credit it deserves? Sure Leinster won it by doing the exact same as Leicester, rotating their squad. When Leinster do it its called putting out the second team, when Leicester do it its called squad rotation.

That's not what happens. I don't think you watched much AP rugby tbh if you think that Leicester rotated like Leinster.

leftleg

On the weekend Leinster flung out a team of absolute kids in a pre-season friendly against Northampton Saints.

Seeing as its a pre season friendly, its a great opportunity for these giants of European club rugby to play their second, third and fourth stringers against each other.

Here are the teams

LEINSTER:
15: Andrew Conway
14: Andrew Boyle
13: Brendan Macken
12: Jordan Coghlan
11: Sam Coghlan-Murray
10: Noel Reid
9: Isaac Boss
1: Jack McGrath
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Martin Moore
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Devin Toner
6: Dominic Ryan
7: Jordi Murphy
8: Leo Auva’a
REPLACEMENTS:
16: Tom Sexton
17: Heinke van der Merwe
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Tom Denton
20: Ben Marshall
21: John Cooney
22: Ian Madigan
23: Collie O’Shea
24: Fionn Carr
25: Jack O’Connell

Northampton
15 Ben FODEN
14 Vasily ARTEMYEV
13 George PISI
12 Dom WALDOUCK
11 Paul DIGGIN
10 Ryan LAMB
9 Lee DICKSON
1 Soane TONGA'UIHA
2 Dylan HARTLEY (capt)
3 Brian MUJATI
4 Mark SORENSON
5 Christian DAY
6 Samu MANOA
7 Teimana HARRISON
8 Phil DOWSON

Ulster played the tigers in Ravenhill as well: here are the teams

Ulster: J Payne; C Gilroy, C Farrell, L Marshall, M Allen; N O’Connor, M Heaney; C Black, N Brady, D Fitzpatrick; J Muller (capt), L Stevenson; R Diack, A Birch, N Williams.
Replacements: R Lutton, R Herring, N Annett, J Afoa, A Macklin, N McComb, M McComish, S Doyle, B McIlroy, P Jackson, C Cochrane, S Olding, R Andrews, P Nelson

Tigers team: Murphy, Hamilton, Tuilagi, Allen, Goneva, Flood, Young; Castrogiovanni, T Youngs, Cole, Mafi, Parling, B Deacon, Salvi, Waldrom

noticing a pattern - english teams playing there full teams even in pre=season; and theyll do this all season long

And then at the end or businees end of the season, whne there first teams are knackered theyll turn and say they havent the resources and we have an unfair advantage etc etc;

really its all about good team management and clearly ap teams havent caught onto that yet.

Larbre34

It tarnishes the HEC as a competition that its not entirely a merit based qualification. I can understand the quota system for the early days of provincial rugby in the Celtic countries, as it was necessary to bed in the notion of the franchises and get a support base. Even though that itself has had mixed success, the profile of the Celtic teams is well established so I think its time to fight it out for HEC qualification on the same basis as the Premiership and Top 14

After all, are Connacht and the brand spanking new Zebre more deserving and talented that Stade Francais, Biarritz or London Irish? I would say not.

If the format was altered to improve the significance of the Challenge Cup and maybe to introduce cross border HEC qualification games, you could get some real dog fights between mid ranked teams that might not usually meet. It would also lead to some much more interesting games at the tail end of the Pro12 each year battling for European places

Personally I'd like to see an automatic entry for the top 7 in each of the Pro12, Premiership and Top 14, then a round-robin play off from 8th and 9th in each league to give you 3 more teams from 6 = 24 total, then let the Euro rankings dictate the Pool seedings. I dont agree with auto qualification for the HEC and ACC holders, but chances are they would qualify from their own leagues if they were performing well enough to win in Europe

CatFromHue

leftleg wrote: »

On the weekend Leinster flung out a team of absolute kids in a pre-season friendly against Northampton Saints.

Seeing as its a pre season friendly, its a great opportunity for these giants of European club rugby to play their second, third and fourth stringers against each other.

---

noticing a pattern - english teams playing there full teams even in pre=season; and theyll do this all season long

And then at the end or businees end of the season, whne there first teams are knackered theyll turn and say they havent the resources and we have an unfair advantage etc etc;

really its all about good team management and clearly ap teams havent caught onto that yet.

Northampton played 2 different sets of 15's against Zebre the week before the Leinster game and had 18 subs for the Leinster game. I don't if they used them all as the subs aren't listed in any match reports but all Saints second half points were scored from players who started on the bench.

Similarly Leicester had 16 players on their bench and I think it's safe to assume they played the majority of them, if not all, at some stage in the game.

What I'm getting at is that the English teams are using all of their Senior squads in the pre season to prepare for the season ahead. We on the other hand are playing Academy players in the pre season and will be using the Rabo as the pre season for the HEC for the main Senior squad players.

Pre season friendlies aren't about getting game time for your third or fourth choice players but about getting your squad match fitness.

I don't see why people can't see that we treat our domestic league ( the Rabo) like a second tier competition while the English and French treat it as their first competition.

Teferi

Larbre34 wrote: »

It tarnishes the HEC as a competition that its not entirely a merit based qualification.

The original purpose of the Heineken Cup was to showcase European rugby. To do this you need to involve teams from all 6 Nations. I don't see how this tarnishes the competition since it was never meant to be a "best of the best" competition.

If they want to throw their toys out of the pram and move the goalposts then that's fine by me. When Irish teams are still winning it they won't have a leg to stand on.

I can guarantee you they wouldn't be making a peep about this issue if their teams where winning it.

profitius

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's not what happens. I don't think you watched much AP rugby tbh if you think that Leicester rotated like Leinster.

But they rotate more than most AP teams. They nearly always have the biggest squad and use it and thats why they usually go on winning runs from mid season on.

rje66

irishbucsfan wrote: »

. I'll be happy when this is all over with, the changes that need to be made are made, and Leinster can compete with the best teams in Europe in a competition that gives everyone the same opportunity to win.

Tolouse player salary budget 20m ish, connaught 2m ish(figures not exact but you know where im going) leinster somewhere inbetween,

not exactly a level playing field .......

sid waddell

There are two fundamentally conflicting arguments here, and both are legitimate.

The Celtic league teams have a massive advantage in terms of not having to qualify, being able to rest players, being able to target specific games against more tired opponents. Only a fool would not admit that that is one of the main reasons why Irish teams have done so well in this competition over the last decade and the English are dead right to point this out.

On the other hand, if Celtic league teams had to qualify for the European Cup on the same basis that English and French teams do, you would likely end up with no Italian representation and quite possibly no Scottish representation either. As has already been said, the whole point of the European Cup is that it is European - ie that all six rugby playing countries are represented.

The only way I can see both arguments accommodated is by expanding the competition to 32 teams with 8 groups of 4. You could squeeze in a round of 16, or if it was decided there was no time for that, you could have only the winner qualifying for the quarter-finals which would mean that there would be no extra games.

It would dilute the quality of the competition a small bit, but it is the only way I can think of to keep everybody happy.

molloyjh

There's a hell of a lot of talk about how Leinster play their 2nd team in the Rabo all the time and how the internationals get so much rest. I can't help but wonder how much of that is informed by last season, a RWC season.

Looking back at 2010/11, the last "full" season, i.e. no RWC, and bearing in mind the international windows would have covered 6 rounds of the Rabo (2 in November and 4 in February/March) leaving 18 games where internationals were available I've found the following:

Heaslip:
Started 10, came off the bench twice and was missing through injury for 1 round. That means he wasn't played for 5 games that he was available for in the Rabo.

Healy:
Started 7, game off the bench for 5. Again 5 games that he was available for that he didn't feature in.

Sexton:
Started 9, came of the bench once, was injured for 3 rounds. Rested for 5 games.

Reddan:
Started 6, came off the bench 7 times. Rested for 5 games.

Healy and Reddan are in positions of strength for Leinster where they are often rotated so the starts vs bench appearances is no surprise there. It seems to me that on average the internationals are rested for about 5 games a season. In the same year Leicester won the Premiership having lost 5 games.

Obviously this is far from scientific or conclusive. But the general point remains. The internationals are not rested nearly as much as the likes of McCafferty would have us believe. And those games that they are not available for would not be the difference between qualifying for the HEC or not in the proposed structure. In fact they might not even be enough to stop Leinster winning the league as well.

As to the point of other sides playing their 2nd string teams I'd love to see that backed up in some way. Because that doesn't match my recollection.

Another point is the details of the various competitions. The Top14 is now 120 years old. A very established league with a huge audiences and as a result a huge revenue stream. The Premiership is 25 years old and again has a large market and so there's lots of money involved.

The Celtic League is 11 years old. Many teams within it are struggling to attract the crowds. In fact it's really only the Irish sides that are consistently well supported. There is nowhere near the same level of money involved in this league as there is in the other 2.

Add to that the fact that the Celtic League has always had to try to compete in many ways with the HEC, which was around before the Celtic League, offers the Celtic sides more money and historically better match-ups, and it's going to take time for the league to establish itself in the same way that the Premiership and Top14 leagues have been able to do.

By preventing the likes of the Italian clubs and, potentially, the Scottish clubs from being able to compete in Europe the chances of this league developing properly arguably decrease. The best way to get the Rabo up to the same standard as the other leagues is to foster the support of the game where it's flagging.

11 years ago the Celtic nations realised they needed to change their domestic set-ups to stand any chance of competing with the Premiership or the Top14. The HEC was not being competed for on a level playing field then either. It was the English and the French that had the advantages then. Instead of expecting them to change for us, we changed to rise to their level. Now that the shoe is on the other foot though the opposite is expected. We now have to change again to lower ourselves to their level.

Of course that assumes that by doing this we will "lower" ourselves. I'm not convinced we will. I think the main impacts will be the other unions in the Pro12 taking a hit money and support wise, the Pro12 suffering somewhat and becoming even less competitive and the Irish sides remaining strong as we are now.

connemara man

sid waddell wrote: »

There are two fundamentally conflicting arguments here, and both are legitimate.

On the other hand, if Celtic league teams had to qualify for the European Cup on the same basis that English and French teams do, you would likely end up with no Italian representation and quite possibly no Scottish representation either. As has already been said, the whole point of the European Cup is that it is European - ie that all six rugby playing countries are represented.

well one other way is the top team from each nation from the celtic league qualify then the rest go to the best in the league ie best Italian,Welsh,Scottish, and Irish then the remaining from the top of the league

bamboozle

much as i dont like caving into the aviva premiership the most over hyped league of all, i'd quiet happy see the Rabo cede 2 HC places - one to the english, 1 to the french to keep the HC alive or maybe even the rabo ceding 1 place and this could be rotated annually between Aviva Prem & top 14.

Podge_irl

I think the French and English have the semblance of a point but I certainly don't look forward to more all English or all French clashes in the pool stages. It just doesn't quite seem in the spirit of the competition.

freyners

Larbre34 wrote: »

After all, are Connacht and the brand spanking new Zebre more deserving and talented that Stade Francais, Biarritz or London Irish? I would say not.

Personal bias aside, I would rather have a team like Connacht, who treated the HC with the respect it deserves, than the likes of some french/english teams who treat it as 2nd to their own leagues and regularly send out weakened teams

rrpc

This has been trashed out in another thread some months back and the same old arguments are trotted out:

1. The Rabo is a weaker league and the Rabo teams put out weakened teams because they can't be relegated and concentrate instead on the HEC.

If that were the case, inevitably the Rabo teams wouldn't be able to compete at the higher level of the HEC and wouldn't figure in the knock out stages. 'Resting players' is just a smokesscreen, if players were rested all season, how well would they perform?

2. Qualification for the HEC should be on league performance in the Rabo.

Qualification for the HEC is based on UNION PARTICIPATION not on league performance. England and France decided to allocate their slots on a league performance basis, they could just as easily have decided it on a few rounds of musical chairs. It's their choice how they allocate their own slots not how Italy, Scotland, Wales and Ireland allocate theirs.

3. It's not about Leinster winning the HEC three times in four years or Irish teams winning five of the last seven.

Yes it is.

4. It's not about the money

Yes it is.

CatFromHue

Just on point 1 RRPC I don't view the Rabo as a weaker league. I view it as a less important league to us than the Aviva or Top 14 is to the English or French. This is due to the way we treat it, nothing to do with English or French opinions. That's why I find myself agreeing, to a degree, with the English and French on this.

thomond2006

I think the Rabo needs to be used as a "Top X qualify for HEC" league. For me, the Rabo lacks legitimacy for not having that atm.

rrpc

CatFromHue wrote: »

Just on point 1 RRPC I don't view the Rabo as a weaker league. I view it as a less important league to us than the Aviva or Top 14 is to the English or French. This is due to the way we treat it, nothing to do with English or French opinions. That's why I find myself agreeing, to a degree, with the English and French on this.

It's a chicken and egg situation. If clubs/provinces put out weaker sides for league games, then by definition it's a weaker league. This is the contention of the AP people; that the league isn't competitive because it lacks relegation and HEC qualification criteria.

They want to help us become more competitive by making HEC qualification dependant on league position thereby making the Rabo as competitive as the AP or the T14.

Bless them.

Digifriendly

What is wrong with top 8 teams in respective leagues qualifying for HC irrespective of country? Ok in answering my own question possibility of no Italian teams or even Scottish sides in HC. However surely this process is fairer and would be incentive for Italian and Scottish sides to get better?

rrpc

Digifriendly wrote: »

What is wrong with top 8 teams in respective leagues qualifying for HC irrespective of country? Ok in answering my own question possibility of no Italian teams or even Scottish sides in HC. However surely this process is fairer and would be incentive for Italian and Scottish sides to get better?

The HEC is run by the ERC, the ERC is made up of the six nations, each of the six nations have equal participation in the ERC.

Are you starting to see how being 'fair' isn't exactly meeting the criterion of equality in the ERC?

CatFromHue

rrpc wrote: »

It's a chicken and egg situation. If clubs/provinces put out weaker sides for league games, then by definition it's a weaker league. This is the contention of the AP people; that the league isn't competitive because it lacks relegation and HEC qualification criteria.

They want our league to be more competitive so that so that teams in it don't rest players as much.

"Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the PRO12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification," McCafferty told the Guardian. "The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/168822.html

I don't agree with all their points but on this one they are correct.

rrpc

CatFromHue wrote: »

They want our league to be more competitive so that so that teams in it don't rest players as much.

"Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the PRO12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification," McCafferty told the Guardian. "The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/168822.html

I don't agree with all their points but on this one they are correct.

No they're not. The IRFU still wouldn't release Ireland squad players for early season Rabo games if the Rabo was reduced to two teams with only one getting in the HEC.

It's about player welfare and the IRFUs insistence that international players have sufficient rest time for autumn Internationals and the same at 6N time.

I'm surprised you don't know this.

CatFromHue

rrpc wrote: »

No they're not. The IRFU still wouldn't release Ireland squad players for early season Rabo games if the Rabo was reduced to two teams with only one getting in the HEC.

It's about player welfare and the IRFUs insistence that international players have sufficient rest time for autumn Internationals and the same at 6N time.

I'm surprised you don't know this.

The Leinster v Ulster and Ulster v Munster games last Christmas and the Welsh RFU playing an international outside of the test series window on the same weekend that Ospreys v Munster, Ulster v Lanelli, and Leinster v Cardiff are other examples of players being rested or pulled from the league. These were all teams aiming for a play off spot where the games were reduced to being for the most part meaningless.

It's not just the start of the season and it's not just the Irish teams that are the problem. It's endemic in the league.

rrpc

CatFromHue wrote: »

The Leinster v Ulster and Ulster v Munster games last Christmas and the Welsh RFU playing an international outside of the test series window on the same weekend that Ospreys v Munster, Ulster v Lanelli, and Leinster v Cardiff are other examples of players being rested or pulled from the league. These were all teams aiming for a play off spot where the games were reduced to being for the most part meaningless.

It's not just the start of the season and it's not just the Irish teams that are the problem. It's endemic in the league.

Nope, it's not in the league, in the Irish situation it's the paymaster general (the IRFU) that call the shots about when international players can be played. The WRU have their say on players as well.

I don't remember any players being rested for the Leinster v Ulster match, it's one of the highlights of the season.

In any event, you're shifting the goalposts. The spokesperson's quote was directly aimed at Ireland players being rested at the start of the season - a time when people might remember that Ireland played 4 warm up international matches in August and then went to a RWC.

Not really much room in there for them to play in Rabo league matches.

CatFromHue

rrpc wrote: »

Nope, it's not in the league, in the Irish situation it's the paymaster general (the IRFU) that call the shots about when international players can be played. The WRU have their say on players as well.

I don't remember any players being rested for the Leinster v Ulster match, it's one of the highlights of the season.

In any event, you're shifting the goalposts. The spokesperson's quote was directly aimed at Ireland players being rested at the start of the season - a time when people might remember that Ireland played 4 warm up international matches in August and then went to a RWC.

Not really much room in there for them to play in Rabo league matches.

The Ulster team that took the field that day:
ULSTER: P Nelson; C Cochrane, M Allen, C Farrell, S Danielli; J McKinney, P Marshall; C Black, N Brady CAPTAIN, A Macklin, T Barker, L Stevenson, N McComb, A Birch, R Diack.

REPLACEMENTS: N Annett, J Cronin, T Court, J Simpson, C Joyce, I Porter, S Olding, C Gaston.

The Scots pulled some players from the end of the 10/11 season too.

The quote by the English chap is referring to this season.

BoarHunter

That can only be good for the Rabo to get a bit interesting. As for Internationals resting periods, that's the way the Irish system works, that's true and that's why it is somewhat helping their province to be ready just for the start of the group stage of HCup ( with a warm up galope the week before ). That when other leagues started Mid August...

When you know the price of a defeat in the group stage ... this is on freshness that it is played most of the time. And also on weather conditions sometimes. ( but that is the same for both teams even though we know that it closes the gap between 2 teams of different levels ).

At the end this is the HCup and all this is part of it. It was created for what it is now. I always have alook at it but it's loosing interest really.

I would much prefer to see the Finalists of all 3 leagues joining the finalists of the Super 15 in a SuperCup and reduce the Hcup to a basic knock out competition.

profitius

CatFromHue wrote: »

They want our league to be more competitive so that so that teams in it don't rest players as much.

"Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the PRO12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification," McCafferty told the Guardian. "The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/story/168822.html

I don't agree with all their points but on this one they are correct.

What hes basically saying is its unfair that Irish players are not flogged like the English and French players. They're looked after better. So instead of English and French clubs limiting the games their players play, its better the Irish go backwards in terms of player welfare.

thomond2006

Are there any stats out there comparing injury rates among (Irish domicile) Irish internationals vs their Six Nations counterparts? That would tell if the IRFU welfare is necessary or over the top.

Of recent times (from the top of my head), we've had serious injuries to Fitzgerald, Kearney, David Wallace and O'Driscoll along with numerous injuries to Ferris and O'Connell. Earls has had niggles as well.

Coburger

Hey, what are the implications of the English and French clubs went their own way and started their own competition?

What would the Irish clubs do? I wonder if the Welsh clubs would ditch the Rabo league and join in with the English clubs? Hum.

Personally there is something wrong with the Rabo Direct League. It really needs a change and the idea of it becoming more competitive can only be beneficial for the average fan in seeing games which are being played at a hi tempo with A-team players participating.

CatFromHue

profitius wrote: »

What hes basically saying is its unfair that Irish players are not flogged like the English and French players. They're looked after better. So instead of English and French clubs limiting the games their players play, its better the Irish go backwards in terms of player welfare.

No we don't but a more merit based qualification system wouldn't flog our players to death but could pacify the English and French clubs.

desertcircus

This talk about being able to rest Irish players in the Rabo is, at the risk of being crude, disingenuous crap propagated by teams who don't want to admit that it's all about the money. Yeah, Leinster rest their first team against other sides who rest their first team. Who's Leinster's third-choice winger? Fionn Carr. Who's Clermont's? Napolioni Nalaga. Their third-choice centre? Regan King. Their second hooker? Ti'i Paulo. Third-choice lock? Seventeen-cap French international Julien Pierre or u21 World Cup-winning French captain Loic Jacquet.

It's not much different at Toulouse; they don't have a single French hooker in their squad. They can replace Lionel Beauxis with Luke McAlister or Luke Burgess with Nicolas Vergallo. The benefit Irish sides get in being able to rest players is cancelled out by the incredibly tight limits on non-Irish players; Toulouse have as many Georgian frontrowers as Leinster have non-Irish players. Howling about one of these effects while ignoring the other, opposite effect is just garbage.

DeDoc

In a statement today on behalf of the Rabo teams, spokesperson Doc, said:

"We're not ones for sabre-rattling, but we have had to give notice to ERC that we intend to withdraw from the Heineken and Amlin competitions in 2014, unless the Anglo-French clubs are prepared to come to the table in a spirit of fairness. We firmly believe that the competition can be bigger and better, but not in its current format. While our teams strive to be competitive and to ensure value to all the tournaments stakeholders it is obvious to us that the Anglo-French clubs do not take the tournament seriously. In recent years we have had the 'spectacle' of the English champions losing to the weakest Irish side and the French champions losing to the 11th placed Rabo side. It is clear that the English and French sides do not take this competition seriously, preferring instead to field full strength sides in meaningless pre-season friendlies and in the EDF Mickey-Mouse cup.
Furthermore, the Rabo sides incur considerable extra costs, including airfares, translators and jersey lettering - with so many O's, Mc's and multiple LL names in the Welsh and Italian sides, the Rabo teams have a major disadvantage over English teams with stiff upper lip names like Cole, Care and Ashton.
We hope that sense will prevail and the English and French clubs will come to the table with a fair offer, allowing us to have 12 teams in a sixteen team league - which is exactly the proportion of Rabo sides to Anglo-French sides in last years semi-finals."

rrpc

CatFromHue wrote: »

The Ulster team that took the field that day:
ULSTER: P Nelson; C Cochrane, M Allen, C Farrell, S Danielli; J McKinney, P Marshall; C Black, N Brady CAPTAIN, A Macklin, T Barker, L Stevenson, N McComb, A Birch, R Diack.

REPLACEMENTS: N Annett, J Cronin, T Court, J Simpson, C Joyce, I Porter, S Olding, C Gaston.

The Scots pulled some players from the end of the 10/11 season too.

The quote by the English chap is referring to this season.

I was talking about Leinster and you'd moved the goalposts considerably.

This season (2012/13) hasn't started yet, but as I said previously and you ignored, the international players' season didn't finish until the end of June, so they will be getting their extra time off as normal.

The point is THEY'RE NOT STAYING OUT OF THE LEAGUE TO BE FRESH FOR THE HEC, they're doing it on the basis of their international duties and since that's what they're paid for, nobody should be batting an eyelid about it.

Except of course a spokesperson for the monied interests in the Aviva Premiership who's main claim to fame is that they got their perch in the ERC as a bargaining chip to get them to play more English qualified players and stop importing over the hill has beens.

Not exactly the kind of people I'm going to listen to lectures from on the subject of what's best for rugby in Europe.