Trap Watch

tolosenc

tolosenc wrote: »

Other than both their wins against Russia in 2008, Spain haven't won a game at a major finals by more than a goal since Tunisia 6 years ago.

Actually, a quick look through the record books informs me that those are their only ever multiple goal victories in Euro finals.

MisterAnarchy

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Stephen Ward hattrick is 500/1 on paddypower

Does that include own goals too ,he is more likely to score one of them.

BraziliaNZ

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Does that include own goals too ,he is more likely to score one of them.

Didn't he used to be a forward for Bohs?

noodler

tolosenc wrote: »

Because we had an easy draw, duh! And loads of luck!

There wasn't a hint of good planning or management in it!

Not sure if you are serious!

tolosenc

noodler wrote: »

Not sure if you are serious!

100% facetious.

jmayo

cambo2008 wrote: »

Excellent post overall.
The part above is exactly my problem with his position.
Martin O'Neill gets slated on this forum for his short term gain/long term pain approach,what Trappatoni is doing with this team is not a million miles away from it.

Thsi would be the same Martin O'Neill who gavce McClean his chance and was quick to realise the lad has something about him ?

noodler wrote: »

Wow.

The Armenians utterly trounce our main competitors for the runners-up spot in our group 3-1 and 4-0 as well as holding the Russians and your response is "go and ****e".

Your point was silly, the very idea the Welsh and Scots would have had a cakewalk in our group.

Well, moving on, no need to waste anymore time on you.

When have the Welsh been a power in football ?
And Scotland haven't really had a decent team in years, their days of producing Jordans, Daglishs and the like are long gone.
The Armenians look like an up and coming side.
We did well to beat them and but for goalkeeper getting sent off who knows how it would have ended.
Also they gave an own goal.
Jaysus are you really talking up the status of the Slovaks ?

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Stephen Ward hattrick is 500/1 on paddypower

Maybe he has some of the underpants
If he did managed to score it would have been one hell of a bet by Paddy Power.

tolosenc wrote: »

Given that in our 17 matches in major finals to date we have only scored more than once on one occasion, I think that is extremely unlikely.

Other than both their wins against Russia in 2008, Spain haven't won a game at a major finals by more than a goal since Tunisia 6 years ago.

Maybe he was thinking Ward gets own goals to help out Spain ?

BTW not to state the obvious that the Spanish may only win by a goal, they nevertheless bloody win.

noodler

jmayo wrote: »

When have the Welsh been a power in football ?
And Scotland haven't really had a decent team in years, their days of producing Jordans, Daglishs and the like are long gone.

What on earth....

I think you might have missed a beat in the conversation - the poster was arguing the Welsh and Scots would have had a much easier time in our group.

jmayo wrote: »

The Armenians look like an up and coming side.
We did well to beat them and but for goalkeeper getting sent off who knows how it would have ended.
Also they gave an own goal.

We beat them - both at home and away. The away win in particular turned out to be our most important result in the campaign.

jmayo wrote: »

Jaysus are you really talking up the status of the Slovaks ?

I love this black and white some people seem to have based on the latest result they have seen.

Slovakia had an excellent world cup, were rightly ranked ahead of us for the draw as second seeds, only lost to the Russians by the odd goal at home and actually beat them in Moscow.

For Armenia to so completely hammer them in two games does say alot about how good Armenia were.

Will I Amnt

jmayo wrote: »

Thsi would be the same Martin O'Neill who gavce McClean his chance and was quick to realise the lad has something about him ?

Absolutely nothing to do with what I was getting at.

Orando Broom

SantryRed wrote: »

I'm in Gdansk. Some lads have been Pre drinking since before the Croatia game :pac:

Few drinks on me and my optimism is slowly coming back. 4-5-1 and we can hold them and nick it 1-0 COYBIG.

Would you get off the Internet for the love of CHRIST!!!!

noodler

Orando Broom wrote: »

Would you get off the Internet for the love of CHRIST!!!!

Seriously, I am dieing to get out of work.

Change of clothes ready and straight into town!

Orando Broom

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Didn't he used to be a forward for Bohs?

How does that happen? How does a scout recommend a forward and he wind up at a much higher level playing left full? Bizarre!

Orando Broom

noodler wrote: »

Seriously, I am dieing to get out of work.

Change of clothes ready and straight into town!

Clothes in with me I'm out the gap in minutes!! I shall drink the rational thoughts out of my head so I can enjoy the game as it should be, foggily with a misplace exhuberance and an overtly nationalistic fervour!

H'on the Irish!

SirDelboy18

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Why does youth matter? It hasn't stopped Alex Ferguson or Del Bosque the past few years.

'We need young players.' 'We need a young manager.'

Football Manager has a lot to answer for imo.

Funny how you mention youth when that is Sir Alex Ferguson's main philosophy. Only been that way for about 15-20 years, but we'll let that one slide.

Some of the best managers in the world at the moment are good young managers, who frankly, are introducing new techniques and creating a new era in football management.

The likes of:

Brendan Rogers
Paul Lambert
Roberto Martinez
Jurgen Klopp
Thomas Tuchel
Andre Villas Boas
Malkay Mackay
Eddie Howe
Marcus Babbel
- Just a tiny, tiny selection of the new age of managers who aren't afraid to get their players to get it down and pass it. There's a reason why the likes of Steve Bruce and Sam Allardyce are now having to drop down a division to get management.

And young players - the young players in question are better than their older counterparts, as has been said many times on this thread. But you don't read any post and just randomly reply to random posts.

And the Football Manager comment, I'm not even going bother replying to.

It has already been mentioned, but FIFA rankings are an appalling system which take into account the results of meaningless friendlies. Which is where the majority of Trap's victories have come.

monkey9

Orando Broom wrote: »

How does that happen? How does a scout recommend a forward and he wind up at a much higher level playing left full? Bizarre!

He went over to Wolves from Bohs as a forward and attacking player. But there was an injury crisis or something and he was put to left back (I remember Duff playing left back for Newcastle for the last few games of the season they got relegated) and Ward just kept his place there. I don't rate him as a left back at all.

ntlbell

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Funny how you mention youth when that is Sir Alex Ferguson's main philosophy. Only been that way for about 15-20 years, but we'll let that one slide.

Some of the best managers in the world at the moment are good young managers, who frankly, are introducing new techniques and creating a new era in football management.

The likes of:

Brendan Rogers
Paul Lambert
Roberto Martinez
Jurgen Klopp
Thomas Tuchel
Andre Villas Boas
Malkay Mackay
Eddie Howe
Marcus Babbel
- Just a tiny, tiny selection of the new age of managers who aren't afraid to get their players to get it down and pass it. There's a reason why the likes of Steve Bruce and Sam Allardyce are now having to drop down a division to get management.

And young players - the young players in question are better than their older counterparts, as has been said many times on this thread. But you don't read any post and just randomly reply to random posts.

And the Football Manager comment, I'm not even going bother replying to.

It has already been mentioned, but FIFA rankings are an appalling system which take into account the results of meaningless friendlies. Which is where the majority of Trap's victories have come.

I all ready said this thread was bizzare but I'm starting to think I might be on the truman show.

Your pulling out names that they're accomplishment in managment is winning the championship and suggesting these are world beaters? and better than managers of traps expirience and knowdlege?

Really, you can all come out now, it was funny while it lasted.

G.K.

ntlbell wrote: »

I all ready said this thread was bizzare but I'm starting to think I might be on the truman show.

Your pulling out names that they're accomplishment in managment is winning the championship and suggesting these are world beaters? and better than managers of traps expirience and knowdlege?

Really, you can all come out now, it was funny while it lasted.

Did you read the post or did you just look at the list of names?

ntlbell

G.K. wrote: »

Did you read the post or did you just look at the list of names?

I'm not sure what not liking FM has to do with anything

G.K.

What?

ntlbell

G.K. wrote: »

What?

I'm not taking his post in isolation he has stated his position very clearly in a never ending amount of posts on the topic and named this managers previously.

Getting the ball down in league one or the championship and being called "brave" is one thing than taking a gang of limited talent and getting the ball down against some of the best players in the world.

It's not like trap has been absent from the game for decade's he's played against many different styles new and old and has done well with the majority of teams or players he's chosen in those cases.

all rioght?

Xavi6

Can't believe he gave Green a run.

Will I Amnt

Xavi6 wrote: »

Can't believe he gave Green a run.

Why not?
If he was crazy enough to bring him.....

monkey9

For me, this tournament was always going to be underwhelming!! When Trappatoni came in, i was delighted. I realised it wouldn't be pretty, but i didn't bank on it being quite so dull!!

Leaving Lansdowne Road a few times as well as Croker, i've been so p!ssed off at the sh!ite i paid good money to see, if you are gonna play that bullsh!t, you wanna make sure you qualify!!

I have belief in the selection of Irish players that we can qualify for tournaments!! But the Trap is like Berti Vogts at Scotland! We need to get stuck in rather than stand off!!

LuckyLloyd

That was a heroic effort from a bunch of players who were completely outclassed both tactically and physically. They ran the boots off their feet.

gnfnrhead

Xavi6 wrote: »

Can't believe he gave Green a run.

I wouldnt be shocked if he and McShane started against Italy just to give them the game time

Renn

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That was a heroic effort from a bunch of players who were completely outclassed both tactically and physically. They ran the boots off their feet.

Nothing really heroic about it.

Really got to question Trap tactically and his ability to actually change when things need changing. His history shows that he has a habit of sending teams out early in the finals. Gotta go but won't happen

LuckyLloyd

Also, Robbie Keane worked his ass off tonight. Not that I expect those who criticised him and called for him to be dropped to apologise or repent.

And Renn, heroism is what you saw tonight - to keep running and battling when the cause was lost. To never give up and give your best right to the end.

Francie Barrett

The lads tried their best, but the players and the system failed us. For a supposedly defensive player, how many tackles did Whelan make tonight? Ward just didn't have a clue, he doesn't seem to have any concept of defending at all. Keane playing was a mistake once again, I know he worked his bollix off, but he just didn't have the physicality to deal with the Spanish defenders. Green making an appearance was just a disgrace, why not try Gibson, who we know can at least pass the ball?

Still think we need a new manager and need to adopt a system using players that are more comfortable on the ball (of which we have quite a few, ie. Hoolahan, Fahey, Ireland, Gibson, McCarthy).

Renn

Sorry but that's what you'd expect from them. And there was nothing heroic about some of the defending (goals 1 and 4) - and goal 4, as you know, was right at the end. When they gave up.

Not that I really blame them playing in a system like that tbh.

kitakyushu

So what has Trap got to offer us now? If it's just another two years of the same then I think it could be letting myself in for the dullest and most pointless campaign in all my time following the team.

briany

Renn wrote: »

Nothing really heroic about it.

Really got to question Trap tactically and his ability to actually change when things need changing. His history shows that he has a habit of sending teams out early in the finals. Gotta go but won't happen

Nothing he could have done in the length of the match, in the last week or even during his entire tenure would have prevented defeat no matter what tactic he tried and what available players he brought in. He maybe could have prevented the scoreline being as brutal as it was but that's a maybe. His look on the sidelines said it all. Normally he's out, he's animated, he's shouting instructions to a player but tonight he just sat in the dugout looking worried, beaten and not clue what to do about it. Just resigned to watching the mauling his team faced.

I wouldn't say that he's got to go but I do wish he'd go back to the drawing board. Sweden are unlikely to implode as Bulgaria and Slovakia did and chances are that if he does not reopen the playbook, we'll be looking at 2-4 more results in the WCQs like we have witnessed over this week and possibly/probably this coming Monday.

monkey9

Renn wrote: »

Nothing really heroic about it.

Really got to question Trap tactically and his ability to actually change when things need changing. His history shows that he has a habit of sending teams out early in the finals. Gotta go but won't happen

Of course they were heroic!! Fair play to the lads!! Trappatoni has held them back, but they still tried!"!

the_monkey

We need to get Steve Staunton back asap ....

he would have steered us to victory tonight ....

Kerrydude1981

kitakyushu wrote: »

So what has Trap got to offer us now? If it's just another two years of the same then I think it could be letting myself in for the dullest and most pointless campaign in all my time following the team.

Was just thinking the same,I know we might not have players playing with the top 4 clubs in England anymore but there is some good talent available to him and they would improve us for these players to be included Trap will have to change his approach on how he sets the team up and also change the style of play,will he though that is the question,I dont think he will.

gnfnrhead

Trap's system is effective (and horrible to watch) against the smaller nations, but it seems to be useless against the good sides. Croatia arent great but still hammered us. He has to figure something out before we play Germany. I think we all expect Germany to beat us, but now it's a case of how badly.

Russia were the only really good side (France were rubbish at the time, their World Cup campaign proves it) we've faced and they hammered us twice and were unlucky to only get four points. Trap needs to get his thinking cap on and change it up. If we persit, we probably wont qualify for the World Cup and thats assuming we dont lose any of our important players. Nearly all of our top players are getting on in years and may be considering retirement. If we have to find replacements for them too, we could be in big trouble.

fullstop

the_monkey wrote: »

We need to get Steve Staunton back asap ....

he would have steered us to victory tonight ....

No, he'd have been in bed with sun stroke

secman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That was a heroic effort from a bunch of players who were completely outclassed both tactically and physically. They ran the boots off their feet.

I actually thought they had totally lost heart and heads !
It was very embarrassing to watch. The gap that has grown between Ireland and Spain over the last 10 years is frightening, although Spain may never ever have that golden era ever again .

Does not seem any point to us carrying on with the current "system" under Trapp.

Spain were an absolute joy to watch tonight, i can only assume thats why the Irish fans sang their hearts out, they were witnessing prob the "Carlsberg " team playing the "pub" team.

Secman

tolosenc

Fine with Trap still being in charge for another 2 years. This has been an eye-opener. We are good enough to qualify, but not even close to good enough to compete with the big boys.

FWIW, I think the team was playing a lot better a year ago. Now we've conceded 7 goals in 2 games and all of them were extremely soft.

I think Monday will be the last we see of Keane, Duff, O'Shea and Given. Maybe a few others. The squad needs to be turned around, and a short sharp shock in the near future is what's needed.

Start Westwood, Coleman, Cunningham, Wilson, Dunne, McCarthy, Clifford, McGeady, McClean, Brady and Long against Serbia and more or less the same team in Kazakhstan. 2 goals/2 assists over the two games and you get to play against Germany.

plasmaguy

Renn wrote: »

Nothing really heroic about it.

Really got to question Trap tactically and his ability to actually change when things need changing. His history shows that he has a habit of sending teams out early in the finals. Gotta go but won't happen

Get a f*cking grip of yourself would ya. If Giovani Trapatoni never existed and we had Mourinho or even Guardiola managing us tonight we'd still have been hammered.

Our players and I include the likes of Coleman and Houlihan are just nowhere near the same level as the Spanish ones are and that has got zero to do with Trap.

McGeady and Duff, our most technically gifted players looked out of their depth tonight. McLean likewise was nowhere near the quality of the Spaniards. As Liam Brady rightly said, Pique, their centre back would have been our most skillful player, and that also goes if you include McClean.

Corholio

plasmaguy wrote: »

Get a f*cking grip of yourself would ya. If Giovani Trapatoni never existed and we had Mourinho or even Guardiola managing us tonight we'd still have been hammered.

Our players and I include the likes of Coleman and Houlihan are just nowhere near the same level as the Spanish ones are and that has got zero to do with Trap.

McGeady and Duff, our most technically gifted players looked out of their depth tonight. McLean likewise was nowhere near the quality of the Spaniards. As Liam Brady rightly said, Pique, their centre back would have been our most skillful player, and that also goes if you include McClean.

'Hoolahan' can at least pass a ball. Not saying he'd have stopped everything that happened, but it would have been going about it a different way, which is what most people want IMO. Noones saying we're the quality of the Spaniards. But Trap's tactics have been very questionable. We, as an Irish national team, never gave ourselves a chance tonight from the first whistle. thats down to the manager.

Roy Keane was absolutely spot on with his comments tonight, i'm far from his biggest fan either. But the sooner we get over masking terrible performances with praise of our fans, the sooner we'll develop a better mentality.

plasmaguy

Corholio wrote: »

'Hoolahan' can at least pass a ball. Not saying he'd have stopped everything that happened, but it would have been going about it a different way, which is what most people want IMO. Noones saying we're the quality of the Spaniards. But Trap's tactics have been very questionable. We, as an Irish national team, never gave ourselves a chance tonight from the first whistle. thats down to the manager.

Roy Keane was absolutely spot on with his comments tonight, i'm far from his biggest fan either. But the sooner we get over masking terrible performances with praise of our fans, the sooner we'll develop a better mentality.

But take Trap out of the equation, put in Mourinho for example and let him pick whoever he wanted that was available and the result would have been no different, nor any other Irish result for that matter.

If Mourino or Guardiola was managing us tonight and Houlihan was playing, we'd still get hammered, that's the reality of the situation.

noodler

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That was a heroic effort from a bunch of players who were completely outclassed both tactically and physically. They ran the boots off their feet.

I will be honest and say that we never banked on getting anything from Spain but, and it hurts me to say it, tonight was more pathetic than heroic.

I need more time to digest it.

plasmaguy

It's the easist thing in the world to sit in your armchair and say we should have done better against the Spanish. The Irish players gave it 100% tonight, no-one doubts that and fair play to them. I have 1 million times more admiration for them than the armchair critic who says we should have done this or that. We could have played any other combination of players and and any other system and it would have been the same. We had no choice but to sit back, playing high up the field was simply not an option, anyone with a clue about football knows that...that's not my opinion, it's just the blueprint for playing the likes of spain and barcelona...chelsea and inter a few years ago had the blue print, sit deep and hope to hit them on the counter which is mostly what we tried tonight...any other approach just doesn't really work against suberbly gifted players like the Spanish....

There is no point trying to read anything into tonights game or where we might pick better players or better tactics...Spain were always going to steamroll us regardless of who we put out or how we put them out...

Corholio

plasmaguy wrote: »

But take Trap out of the equation, put in Mourinho for example and let him pick whoever he wanted that was available and the result would have been no different, nor any other Irish result for that matter.

If Mourino or Guardiola was managing us tonight and Houlihan was playing, we'd still get hammered, that's the reality of the situation.

But we were hopeless, helpless, gutless etc. We may or may not still have been beaten, but the way in which it was done might have been different. How can u say take Trap out of the equation? Trap is the reason every player plays in their positions and does what their told to do. The reality of the situation is we were abysmal tonight, and we could have done better, a hell of a lot better.

plasmaguy

Corholio wrote: »

But we were hopeless, helpless, gutless etc. We may or may not still have been beaten, but the way in which it was done might have been different. How can u say take Trap out of the equation? Trap is the reason every player plays in their positions and does what their told to do. The reality of the situation is we were abysmal tonight, and we could have done better, a hell of a lot better.

We weren't gutless, stop making things up.

They all tried, every last one of them. They even tried to play the ball on the ground for parts of the game. But it was no use. The technical limitations of our players were exposed for all to see. That has nothing to do with Trap and it wouldn't have been any better no matter who he selected. The Spaniards are playing a different game to us to be honest. The EPL is in no way preparation for these types of games, where it's usually a case of get rid of the ball as fast as you can, anywhere will do, aim it for the big guy down field, the Hesky/Carrol/Ba etc type player, particularly in the lower half of the EPL.

S28382

Tonight was a bad night for Irish soccer we were shown by a very good Spanish team how to play ball, what we need now is not to bash the players or management (as they will be hurting over the shambolic showing so far) we need to regroup with a different approach with a different set up and set up the future for a positive attacking team that has a winning mentality and im afraid we wont get that with the set up we have now.

We need change, we need a different perspective, coz another 2yrs of playing the way we do will put Irish soccer in the wilderness for the next 20years. Trap done a great job with Ireland but the way we play is not the Irish way

fullstop

S28382 wrote: »

We need change, we need a different perspective, coz another 2yrs of playing the way we do will put Irish soccer in the wilderness for the next 20years. Trap done a great job with Ireland but the way we play is not the Irish way

This is exactly the problem. Qualifying for this tournament might actually have done more harm than good as seeing the team get easily beaten in every game when the whole country could turn people off football.

Corholio

S28382 wrote: »

Tonight was a bad night for Irish soccer we were shown by a very good Spanish team how to play ball, what we need now is not to bash the players or management (as they will be hurting over the shambolic showing so far) we need to regroup with a different approach with a different set up and set up the future for a positive attacking team that has a winning mentality and im afraid we wont get that with the set up we have now.

We need change, we need a different perspective, coz another 2yrs of playing the way we do will put Irish soccer in the wilderness for the next 20years. Trap done a great job with Ireland but the way we play is not the Irish way

To be fair, a lot of people have been saying this long before this tournament. People have every right to bash the management and to a lesser extent, the players who are not good enough for this level. It needed to change before the Euro's, it didn't and this is what has happened.

Mr.Nice Guy

Not one player in that starting XI for Ireland played in the top 8 of the Premiership, and they were taking on a team that featured stars of Barca, Real and the very top Premier League sides, and yet people are moaning that we got outclassed?

It was a team made up of mid-table Premier League players taking on the cream of Spanish football. How did you think this would pan out?

All this whingeing about Trap is hysterical. If you want to see Irish teams doing better then look to the coaching set-up because the Spain team (and Croatia for that matter) are where they are based on years and years of top class coaching of youngsters, teaching them how to play and keep the ball. I believe we only recently started to address the coaching side of youth football and it will take years of this kind of coaching to see results.

Croatia are a small nation with a population comparable to ourselves and ought to be looked upon as a great example to us for what can we done with top coaching.

Trap is not to blame for bringing an Italian style four years ago to a group of players predominantly brought up on hoofball football. The problem is far deeper than that. As Stephen Hunt said not long ago, the last truly gifted playmaker this country created was Brady. That's the heart of the problem.

briany

fullstop wrote: »

This is exactly the problem. Qualifying for this tournament might actually have done more harm than good as seeing the team get easily beaten in every game when the whole country could turn people off football.

In the short term I've much more worry that this run of spankings will utterly break the confidence that the players have in the manager. I wouldn't be surprised if we have senior players popping up in the next few days questioning the manager and the setup much like Terry did at the WC 2010. If we're stuck with Trap for 2 more years, the only thing to do is regroup in as dignified a way as possible and try to find a new, more progressive way. It's very unlikely to happen and it won't even happen overnight but there is a hope that, with the like of Given, Keane, Dunne, Duff, O'Shea bowing out in the next while he'll have to blood new talent and maybe even one will come along around whom he can build toward the future of the team (here's hoping)......

Pighead

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Not one player in that starting XI for Ireland played in the top 8 of the Premiership, and they were taking on a team that featured stars of Barca, Real and the very top Premier League sides, and yet people are moaning that we got outclassed?

It was a team made up of mid-table Premier League players taking on the cream of Spanish football. How did you think this would pan out?

We weren't exactly blessed with natural talent ten years ago when we drew with Spain. Kilbane, Holland, Kinsella, Harte, Breen and an ageing Staunton on the team that day. You can dress it up anyway you want but Trap shows the opposition far too much respect.

We are better than this. To get beaten is one thing but to be dominated like that is just embarrassing. I'd say that was the easiest game the Spaniards have played in a long time. Felt sorry for Keane yet again tonight. Long not particularly accurate balls up to him and nobody supporting from midfield whenever he did manage to get a flick on. Horrendous.