Trap Watch

ColeTrain

Pighead wrote: »

We weren't exactly blessed with natural talent ten years ago when we drew with Spain. Kilbane, Holland, Kinsella, Harte, Breen and an ageing Staunton on the team that day. You can dress it up anyway you want but Trap shows the opposition far too much respect.

We are better than this. To get beaten is one thing but to be dominated like that is just embarrassing. I'd say that was the easiest game the Spaniards have played in a long time. Felt sorry for Keane yet again tonight. Long not particularly accurate balls up to him and nobody supporting from midfield whenever he did manage to get a flick on. Horrendous.

That Spain team weren't the team they were today. They were big failures in every tournament they played until they won Euro 2008, since then they've been on fire. Not many teams would dare play them at their own game.

If we're being realistic, our only chance was to sit back and hope for the best. It's disappointing to see the team being outclassed like that but it was on the cards.

In my opinion any team or tactics would have still ended in defeat.
I hope we let the younger lads stake a claim for the WC qualifying, a lot of our players are near the end of the line now.

Mr.Nice Guy

Pighead wrote: »

We weren't exactly blessed with natural talent ten years ago when we drew with Spain. Kilbane, Holland, Kinsella, Harte, Breen and an ageing Staunton on the team that day. You can dress it up anyway you want but Trap shows the opposition far too much respect.

We are better than this. To get beaten is one thing but to be dominated like that is just embarrassing. I'd say that was the easiest game the Spaniards have played in a long time. Felt sorry for Keane yet again tonight. Long not particularly accurate balls up to him and nobody supporting from midfield whenever he did manage to get a flick on. Horrendous.

I think Holland and Kinsella were far better than Whelan and Andrews and that Spanish team of '02 would be well beaten by the current Spanish line-up of 2012.

We were taking on probably the greatest Spain team ever with a bunch of mid to lower half Premier League players. You can bemoan the style but if we'd played in an attacking sense I suspect we'd have been beaten by seven or eight.

We just don't have the quality and we need to look towards how we can create good, technically sound players that maybe would allow us to play in a better system.

Pighead

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think Holland and Kinsella were far better than Whelan and Andrews and that Spanish team of '02 would be well beaten by the current Spanish line-up of 2012.

We were taking on probably the greatest Spain team ever with a bunch of mid to lower half Premier League players. You can bemoan the style but if we'd played in an attacking sense I suspect we'd have been beaten by seven or eight.

We just don't have the quality and we need to look towards how we can create good, technically sound players that maybe would allow us to play in a better system.

I'm not just talking about tonight's match. It's every match at this stage. We get dominated by nearly everyone we play. It's ridiculous.

In the last two years we've played 14 or 15 competitive matches(disregard Andorra matches) and we've been outplayed in everyone bar a 10 men Estonian team and at a push Macedonia away. We've showed them far too much respect and it is without doubt one of the flukiest qualifying campaigns in history.

You say that Holland and Kinsella were better than Whelan and Andrews and I agree with you. But the point is Trap keeps picking Whelan and Andrews. Even against the lesser teams. He had plenty of friendly's to try McCarthy/Andrews or Hoolahan/Whelan yet ended up giving McCarthy a few minutes here and a couple of minutes there while always reverting to type when it came to the competitive matches.

Corholio

Pighead wrote: »

I'm not just talking about tonight's match. It's every match at this stage. We get dominated by nearly everyone we play. It's ridiculous.

In the last two years we've played 14 or 15 competitive matches(disregard Andorra matches) and we've been outplayed in everyone bar a 10 men Estonian team and at a push Macedonia away. We've showed them far too much respect and it is without doubt one of the flukiest qualifying campaigns in history.

You say that Holland and Kinsella were better than Whelan and Andrews and I agree with you. But the point is Trap keeps picking Whelan and Andrews. Even against the lesser teams. He had plenty of friendly's to try McCarthy/Andrews or Hoolahan/Whelan yet ended up giving McCarthy a few minutes here and a couple of minutes there while always reverting to type when it came to the competitive matches.

That sentence x 100.

This 'it would have happened anyway' is an easy way out too. I said it before the tournament and I'd have very gladly have been wrong but Trap still was in 'qualifying' mode with the way his team plays. We simply cannot play to win games. The reason people pick out the French match as a time when we played great, is because it was so very different from how we usually play. It's actually kind of sad to see how our team could actually play, and yet years on, nothing has changed.

gnfnrhead

You can 100% blame Trap. He had several opportunities to try out different tactics and combinations but instead stuck with the exact same tactic and almost exact same team every single time. It was exposed against Croatia and exposed even worse against Spain, the problem in each case was we had no plan B because Trap refused to try anything different before the tournament started.

Spain started against Italy with Plan A and it wasn't working so they switched to Plan B and got a point. They started with Plan B against us and destroyed us. It's the managers job to have a back up plan but Trap didn't seem to give it any thought. He was convinced Plan A would always work despite all the warning signs in the games against Russia etc.

As good as Spain are, Trap still deserves a lot of the blame for not having a Plan B. Sticking a striker in midfield is an act of desperation rather than a back up plan. We probably still would have lost, but I doubt it would have been anywhere near as bad if we had something else to go with. Spain knew exactly what we were going to do and easily exploited the weak points. That's what happens when you play the exact same tactics and exact same players every game, teams figure you out.

Xavi6

"I don't see how Ireland can trouble us. Their football is very simple and not difficult to analyse."

The above from Slaven Bilic sums it up perfectly.

SantryRed

Sickening loss. I once again think the tactics were all wrong but that doesn't legislate for the first and second goals to concede. The players have a lot to answer for. Conceding a goal at the start of every half so far is a fcuking disgrace. Last night was embarrassing and it was horrible seeing Irish players giving up so early. Also I can't believe Trap brought on Paul Green. Fcuk me.

monkey9

Hoolahan is just the latest Andy Reid for the Irish fans!! He's decent enough, but not international standard! Granted, neither are some of the other players in the squad (i'm still disgusted Paul Green made an appearence), but Wes Hoolahan is a squad player at best, at his very best!!

leonidas83

monkey9 wrote: »

Hoolahan is just the latest Andy Reid for the Irish fans!! He's decent enough, but not international standard! Granted, neither are some of the other players in the squad (i'm still disgusted Paul Green made an appearence), but Wes Hoolahan is a squad player at best, at his very best!!

And Whelan, Cox, Ward are. At least he plays the game the right way, we could do with more players like that

monkey9

leonidas83 wrote: »

And Whelan, Cox, Ward are. At least he plays the game the right way, we could do with more players like that

Not with Trap we couldn't!

leonidas83

Tbh Id rather see us miss out on qualifying for these tournaments & playing football the right way than going there and being humiliated like this. There was at least 6 players(Coleman,McCarthy,Holohan,McClean,Walters,Long) who have all been pretty much overlooked for this tournament & can play decent football. Why are we persisting with this negative thump it long approach that's making us a laughing stock of Europe. Why was Trap so unbelievably loyal to players who are nowhere good enough for this level. Why havent players like the six above been given more of a chance in friendlies to show what they can do. These are all questions Trappattoni should be made answer but with the joke of an association we have in charge of this situation, you can forget about it. Its one thing getting beaten by a team like Spain, its another thing getting beaten by them like dogs in front of the whole of Europe. F**king Estonia would have played better football than we did tonight

Orando Broom

For those who want Trap out etc., realistically who do you think the FAI could attract? Bear in mind Denis O'Brien is paying for the fun here. A manager after Trap could well be only offered max 200k a year. At an absolute max. That money would rule out any manager above the top half of the championship.

monkey9

kitakyushu wrote: »

So what has Trap got to offer us now? If it's just another two years of the same then I think it could be letting myself in for the dullest and most pointless campaign in all my time following the team.

Honestly, i couldn't be doing with it. Trap did his job, he got us into a tournament. But i want to be looking forward to Ireland matches, not walking away from them feeling nothing, even sometimes after a win.

monkey9

Orando Broom wrote: »

For those who want Trap out etc., realistically who do you think the FAI could attract? Bear in mind Denis O'Brien is paying for the fun here. A manager after Trap could well be only offered max 200k a year. At an absolute max. That money would rule out any manager above the top half of the championship.

No doubt about it, i'd much rather a Mick McCarthy managing Ireland than a Trappatoni!!!

Orando Broom

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

the last truly gifted playmaker this country created was Brady. That's the heart of the problem.

England created. And that is the problem. We are exporting the unfinished product far too easily. You want to start a change in mentality it starts at the grass roots. We need to keep the majority of our young players here. Their senior debut has to be the League of Ireland. We should have seen Keane, Duff and Given start their journey on Irish pitches.

The managers on this country have a duty too at every level. There has to be an aesthetic element to how football is played. That doesn't give instant success. Patience would be required.

Orando Broom

monkey9 wrote: »

No doubt about it, i'd much rather a Mick McCarthy managing Ireland than a Trappatoni!!!

Much and all as I dislike the man, I'd not object if he was apologised to and offered the job in the future. However was he as good as his record suggests? He ****ed up qualification a few times when it was in the bag with a much better team. Do you think had he been in charge last night we'd have been closer to the Spanish? They were imperious.

leonidas83

Orando Broom wrote: »

For those who want Trap out etc., realistically who do you think the FAI could attract? Bear in mind Denis O'Brien is paying for the fun here. A manager after Trap could well be only offered max 200k a year. At an absolute max. That money would rule out any manager above the top half of the championship.

Trap is on about 1.6 million a year, Denis O'Brien pays roughly half that maybe a little more.

That leaves us with 800k to play with, are you trying to tell me we couldnt get a decent manager for that kind of money. And who says Denis O'Brien would pull out if Trap left, maybe he'd like to see us getting to a major tournament playing decent football.

Why dont we go for Redknapp, mightnt get him but its well worth a try, im sure he's had enough of club management at this stage and we all know he hasnt a snowballs chance in hell of getting the England job.

Blatter

Selecting Keane to lead the line against Spain was one of the more retarded managerial decisions I've seen.

1. He isn't great at holding the ball up

2. He isn't quick

3. He poses little physical threat

4. He isn't renowned for his aerial ability


Just a downright astonishing and basic error. Don't get me wrong, if we had played Walters or Doyle up there, we still would have lost. But at least it would have made sense, and we'd have had slightly more of the ball.

And Cox in midfield instead of Gibson? Just wow.

monkey9

Orando Broom wrote: »

Much and all as I dislike the man, I'd not object if he was apologised to and offered the job in the future. However was he as good as his record suggests? He ****ed up qualification a few times when it was in the bag with a much better team. Do you think had he been in charge last night we'd have been closer to the Spanish? They were imperious.

Forget about last night, we were always up against it!

Mick finished second in qualifying in all the groups which, before he took over, would have had us qualifying automatically.

I'm not saying literally get Mick McCarthy as manager! But someone like him is more suited to Ireland that getting an outsider to pay the wages for an absolute legendary manager like Trappatoni!

We need to give the fans something to cheer at when playing at Lansdowne. That's just the way we are! The Italian style doesn't suit us!

klose

He's a very confusing man! His mentailty of this team could play together blindfolded is just plain wrong, it must have nearly broken his heart to start cox and drop doyle and that was again wrong.
The fact he subbed him off at half time ultimately admitted defeat in his selection anyways, and to bring on green ahead of gibson admitted general defeat, hopefully his swansong! Atleast he brought on walters and it worked, he won every header hit up to him and usually kept it or passed it. Himself and long would be a great little partnership, was also good to see mcclean get on look forward to seeing him over the coming years.
I honestly thought we played better last night then against croatio and tbf there's no shame in losing 4-0 to the greastest team in the world at the moment. They where class, any time we had the ball there was 2 men on the man and when they got it and passsed it around it was like they had 2 players more on the pitch such is how they play.
Anyways the only one id like to see still play if hes fit enough is dunne and give him the armband. Given maybe too, hes definately not fit and westwood is certainly not a bad keeper atall to step up!

Our best player the 2 games has been andrews imo, whealen seemed almost scared of the ball. Bring in gibson please.

BraziliaNZ

do you think this is the worst team ever at a Euros?

The_Kew_Tour

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

do you think this is the worst team ever at a Euros?

On paper no. On performance its up there with shout.

kitakyushu

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

do you think this is the worst team ever at a Euros?

If we lose by 2 v Italy then statistically we'll be the joint worst team. Lose by 3 then we hold the title.

Football-wise however, I'd say we're already the worst team I've ever seen in the Euros. Our style was possibly excusable when we were nicking flukey 1-0's and 0-0's but playing like we do and then still getting hockeyed anyway seems a pointless philosophy.

TheDoc

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Also, Robbie Keane worked his ass off tonight. Not that I expect those who criticised him and called for him to be dropped to apologise or repent.

Well, considering it was identified that Keane is a passenger in the formation and system we play, starting someone like Walters who can hold up the ball and intellegently drop into a midfield to make a third CM, along with Long up front with some pace and also good ability to hold the ball,

All last night did was show how Keane is just not fitted for this system, and is a passenger.

No apology required for stating what has been obvious in these two games along with alot of the qualifiers.

Will I Amnt

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

do you think this is the worst team ever at a Euros?

The next 2 weakest teams at this current competition would arguably be Denmark and Greece.The difference in their performances and ours is massive.They played football created chances and got points.
We are so far off the level required to warrant a place in these competitions.

Blatter

The Czechs and Ukraine are probably worst than Denmark tbh.

Will I Amnt

Blatter wrote: »

The Czechs and Ukraine are probably worst than Denmark tbh.

Maybe so,I did say arguably but even they are also able to compete and don't look nearly as out of their depth as we do.

Blatter

I know you said arguably, and that's why I argued

I agree that we're without doubt the worst team in the competition.

steelcityblues

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

do you think this is the worst team ever at a Euros?

Bulgaria 2004 were really hopeless, but if we get beaten by Italy (ironically, also their final opponents), you could argue us over them.

noodler

TheDoc wrote: »

Well, considering it was identified that Keane is a passenger in the formation and system we play, starting someone like Walters who can hold up the ball and intellegently drop into a midfield to make a third CM, along with Long up front with some pace and also good ability to hold the ball,

All last night did was show how Keane is just not fitted for this system, and is a passenger.

No apology required for stating what has been obvious in these two games along with alot of the qualifiers.

You mean the Keane that has score more than half of the competitive goals scored under Trapatoni?

Jesus, if scoring half our goals means he is a passenger - our other strikers must be prolific......

starviewadams

What were people honestly expecting when we drew Spain,Italy and Croatia?I knew instantly that I'd be happy if we even managed to score 1 goal against any of the above.I think some people were caught up with the bandwagoners and expecting miracles out of a poorly resourced and ageing (Keane,O'Shea,Duff,Given,Dunne) Irish team.It's amazing to even be at the Euro's and I'm happy for Trap to be our manager for the forseeable future,especially with the likelihood that his replacement would be a failed manager from a lower premiership or championship team.

Trap got us to the Euro's,asking anymore then that is just being ridiculous.Just think back to Steve Staunton and the 5-2 loss to Cyprus,losing to Croatia and World Champions Spain doesn't seem so bad.

Renn

But Trap is a failed manager when it comes to tournaments. Ruined those Italian sides, now doing it to the Irish.

gnfnrhead

starviewadams wrote: »

What were people honestly expecting when we drew Spain,Italy and Croatia?I knew instantly that I'd be happy if we even managed to score 1 goal against any of the above.I think some people were caught up with the bandwagoners and expecting miracles out of a poorly resourced and ageing (Keane,O'Shea,Duff,Given,Dunne) Irish team.It's amazing to even be at the Euro's and I'm happy for Trap to be our manager for the forseeable future,especially with the likelihood that his replacement would be a failed manager from a lower premiership or championship team.

Trap got us to the Euro's,asking anymore then that is just being ridiculous.Just think back to Steve Staunton and the 5-2 loss to Cyprus,losing to Croatia and World Champions Spain doesn't seem so bad.

Are you actualy serious? Ah sure we qualified, doesnt matter if we get beat 15-0 we're just happy to be here!

Nobody expected Ireland to win the tournament, and most would have expected us to go out in the group stages too, but we would have expected at least a decent showing. We didnt even get that! First team eliminated and we still have to play a strong Italy side who have to win. We could easily end up taking the record for the worst ever Euro performance. But then, that doesnt matter, we're just happy to be there, right?

Rikand

Blatter wrote: »

I know you said arguably, and that's why I argued

I agree that we're without doubt the worst team in the competition.

And we wouldnt have even been in the competition except we were lucky to draw estonia and how fortunate were we there

starviewadams

15-0?jesus get real!we lost 3-1 to a superior Croatia side and were stung by a dodgy ref in doing so,and we put in a better performance last night against the current world and european champions,we still lost 4-0 but we played better then against the Croats.

And I am just happy to be there,after spending miserable nights in the aviva and across europe over the last number of years I feel I'm entitled to be too.If we'd drawn a more manageable group and got shown up by more average sides I'd be pissed off though.The people who are criticisng Trap have an awful short memory,and are the same type of eejits patting themselves on the back for being the best fans in the world.They'll also be the same 'fans' who wont bother their holes attending any of the upcoming world cup qualifiers unless it looks like Ireland might qualify or reach the play offs.

Pighead

starviewadams wrote: »

What were people honestly expecting when we drew Spain,Italy and Croatia?I knew instantly that I'd be happy if we even managed to score 1 goal against any of the above.I think some people were caught up with the bandwagoners and expecting miracles out of a poorly resourced and ageing (Keane,O'Shea,Duff,Given,Dunne) Irish team.It's amazing to even be at the Euro's and I'm happy for Trap to be our manager for the forseeable future,especially with the likelihood that his replacement would be a failed manager from a lower premiership or championship team.

Trap got us to the Euro's,asking anymore then that is just being ridiculous.Just think back to Steve Staunton and the 5-2 loss to Cyprus,losing to Croatia and World Champions Spain doesn't seem so bad.

Actually I think you're getting caught up in the "We never had a chance bandwagon". At the time you thought it was an interesting group and that Ireland would give it a good go. Shocking revisionism on display here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75790073&postcount=375

Corholio

By far Trap's worst tactical decision was the decision to have Given and Ward swap places halfway through the 3 mobile ad.

Orando Broom

Pighead wrote: »

Actually I think you're getting caught up in the "We never had a chance bandwagon". At the time you thought it was an interesting group and that Ireland would give it a good go. Shocking revisionism on display here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75790073&postcount=375

Had a look through some of the old posts. Serious amount of volte face going on here. It's the Internet. An opinion is as about as intransigent as an albatross on the Internet.

kitakyushu

Corholio wrote: »

By far Trap's worst tactical decision was the decision to have Given and Ward swap places halfway through the 3 mobile ad.

Ya have to do it. As well as a top manager Trap is an expert cameraman and knows that 'crossing the line' is a big no-no when you have the protagonist framed camera right.

Personally I think the whole "Given Wardy Pat" formation was a non-starter from a storytelling pov, doesn't take advantage of our players acting ability and doesn't bode well for our future ads.

Corholio

kitakyushu wrote: »

Ya have to do it. As well as a top manager Trap is an expert cameraman and knows that 'crossing the line' is a big no-no when you have the protagonist framed camera right.

Personally I think the whole "Given Wardy Pat" formation was a non-starter from a storytelling pov.

Pat should definitely have been given more of a run out in these Euro's. Bit nervous at the start but gets the job done in the end.

chupacabra

Manuela not too happy with the question given to trap about him making mistakes.

Renn

Well just gave a little smile, no?

kitakyushu

Trap getting fairly passionate about whether he should stay or leave.

ben.schlomo

I am getting one in ten words of what hes saying, its like listening to a drunk in Chinese.


Not having a go but if i was a journalist id be in bits trying to piece it together.

Yillan

I guess he's tired, not having slept, but this is incoherent nonsense.

briany

kitakyushu wrote: »

Trap getting fairly passionate about whether he should stay or leave.

That's understandable. He seems like a passionate and genuine man who does genuinely believe in what he's doing with the team and I'd be quite ashamed to be Irish if he has to withstand shallow bitterness from the tabloid media or fair weather fans.

chupacabra

Translation: Wont be changing a thing for the Italian game, feels that the small mistakes that led to early goals killed them, will start to consider big change for the next campaign, loves the irish support and is incredibly proud to be a part of the irish set up, wont talk to british journalists, only wants to talk to Irish ones :pac:

LuckyLloyd

Press conference:

- spikey response to the idea that he should not be allowed to take charge of the World Cup campaign. Said that they qualified and that people should be proud of the country and the fans - that the people decide whether he should stay or go, not the media and they sang the players off the pitch despite being 3 goals down;

- says that he won't change players for the Italy game, but that changes will be made when they start again with the friendly and the new qualification campaign. Hints that "you see who are in the books, 1 / 2 / 3";

- reckons the players were ready in the dressing room and after the warm ups, but conceding early was very difficult for them psychologically - and something they hadn't faced in a long time;

bizmark

Ted i dont know whats going on

Orando Broom

ben.schlomo wrote: »

I am getting one in ten words of what hes saying, its like listening to a drunk in Chinese.


Not having a go but if i was a journalist id be in bits trying to piece it together.

It's a lot of the problem to be honest. What journalist won't twist the meaning out of already garbled piffle?