Trap Watch

Francie Barrett

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I would argue that the players did try their best, but the Croatians simply didn't allow us to play our typical game.

rarnes1 wrote: »

Croatia are a much better footballing side, simple as that and were much better on the night.

Armenia were a better footballing side than we were in the qualies.

Francie Barrett

Seaneh wrote: »

Besides Russia the best team was ****ing Armenia, a team made up of players who are mostly championship level with a few semi professionals and a ****ing amature Goal Keeper.

Armenia played us off the park with 10 men.

LuckyLloyd

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

At the time Reid was playing great football and deserved to play. Just because he isn't playing to that standard currently doesn't take away from the fact that he once was and fully deserved to play.

I know there are people out there who would like our squad to be picked on the basis of who is in the best form the two weekends before it is named. What was Andy Reid doing in the run up to WC 2010? What is the point of selecting a flavour of the month who won't be consistently useful over the two year period that International tournaments play out?

Trapp cut Reid because he could see he was a chancer. The fullness of time proved him correct.

ctrl-alt-delete

Doyle did his job well the other night, but the problem was most of it happened out wide, where we didn't test the croatian central pairing, and more often than not he was isolated and the best he could hope for was a free.

I think with the system, we need two strikers who perform better together, Keane wanders too much, as anyone would you drop deeper trying to get involved in the game.

For myself personally I wouldn't drop Keane, and would be happy with any of the remainder playing with him.

The system fell down further back friom that, We need players who are better on the ball, even just more comfortable on the ball would make a big difference. The 4 defenders were at panic stations for the most when they had the ball,and looked even worse when they hadn't got it. I look at Denmarks defense the other day and they coped really well in similar circumstances.

The Croatians never let us settle, until near the end when they had the game won. This resulted in Mcgeady and Duff spending more time supporting the defense than the attack.

When we did get the ball we hoofed it clear and for the most we invited the next Croatian onslaught onto us again. I would have the team pressing higher up the pitch, it closes the gap if you do get the ball. We dropped deep and let them come onto us, and gave the like of Modric far too much time and space on the ball.

Andrews was my motm like some others have said, he is the most comfortable on the ball, and was involved in most of our chances late on.

I hope things can change for the next games, and I'd hope Trap can use his experience to improve on what happened in the Croatian game.

SirDelboy18

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I know there are people out there who would like our squad to be picked on the basis of who is in the best form the two weekends before it is named. What was Andy Reid doing in the run up to WC 2010? What is the point of selecting a flavour of the month who won't be consistently useful over the two year period that International tournaments play out?

Trapp cut Reid because he could see he was a chancer. The fullness of time proved him correct.

He got a series of injuries which caused him to lose his club place, and eventually fall down the ladder.

So injuries equates to chancer?

LuckyLloyd

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Because we refuse to play anything other than a very limiting system, simple as that.

No, Croatia are better than us because they have better players. Spain have better players. Italy have better players.

We were decent to overwhelming underdogs from a betting perspective for all three games. THEN they get the breaks on the night, so the result is disappointing. And what do we have after the final whistle? This hand wringing and talk of the manager holding us back somehow.

Do people not realise how difficult this draw was always going to be? And we're crying, why? Because Dunne et al didn't produce another superhuman ****ing performance where they all play way above their individual ability?

To EXPECT performances like Paris where we perform to a level way above the sum of our parts is kind of crazy. That type of stuff should be heralded when it happens. And it not happening the other night is hardly the unmitigated disaster it is being made out to be.

Seaneh

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

He got a series of injuries which caused him to lose his club place, and eventually fall down the ladder.

So injuries equates to chancer?

Exactly, he also played 39 games this season for Forrest this season and was nominated for their player of the year award, so it's safe to say his injuries are behind him.

LuckyLloyd

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

He got a series of injuries which caused him to lose his club place, and eventually fall down the ladder.

So injuries equates to chancer?

LOL, you people love yourselves some Andy Reid. Andy Reid's failure to do his natural ability justice over the course of his career was not down to injuries. If you believe in the above narrative, then we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

SirDelboy18

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No, Croatia are better than us because they have better players. Spain have better players. Italy have better players.

We were decent to overwhelming underdogs from a betting perspective for all three games. THEN they get the breaks on the night, so the result is disappointing. And what do we have after the final whistle? This hand wringing and talk of the manager holding us back somehow.

Do people not realise how difficult this draw was always going to be? And we're crying, why? Because Dunne et al didn't produce another superhuman ****ing performance where they all play way above their individual ability?

To EXPECT performances like Paris where we perform to a level way above the sum of our parts is kind of crazy. That type of stuff should be heralded when it happens. And it not happening the other night is hardly the unmitigated disaster it is being made out to be.

As I have said before, we are quite like Denmark. If we allowed ourselves to pick the best players and play a system that actually suits us, then we could do very well.

There is simply no argument to support us accepting mediocrity when we have better players available, both in the current squad and at home. Furthermore, we play a formation which is redundant in modern football. We say we are limited, but we play a 4-4-2 which causes our midfield to be over-run by even the semi-capable international midfields.

LuckyLloyd

So, what people want is for us to be the best version of Spain / Germany that we can muster? Newsflash: the players ommitted like Clarke / Hoolahan / etc aren't good enough right now either.

What we've been doing the last four years has made us consistent, competitive and got us in these games. Do people deny that? If 18th in the world and getting eliminated from a terribly tough group is "mediocre", what is "success"?

So, let's hear it. If this isn't our ceiling, what is? What should we be achieving?

G.K.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So, what people want is for us to be the best version of Spain / Germany that we can muster? Newsflash: the players ommitted like Clarke / Hoolahan / etc aren't good enough right now either.

What we've been doing the last four years has made us consistent, competitive and got us in these games. Do people deny that? If 18th in the world and getting eliminated from a terribly tough group is "mediocre", what is "success"?

So, let's hear it. If this isn't our ceiling, what is? What should we be achieving?

Come on Lloyd, that's not what he said.

He never said Ireland should be playing like Spain, only that Ireland don't play as well as they could given what is available.

'If we allowed ourselves to pick the best players and play a system that actually suits us'

I don't think he's advocating for a system that is radically different to what Ireland play, but there are differences and they would help the team.

BraziliaNZ

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

As I have said before, we are quite like Denmark. If we allowed ourselves to pick the best players and play a system that actually suits us, then we could do very well.

There is simply no argument to support us accepting mediocrity when we have better players available, both in the current squad and at home. Furthermore, we play a formation which is redundant in modern football. We say we are limited, but we play a 4-4-2 which causes our midfield to be over-run by even the semi-capable international midfields.

Denmark played some good stuff though against Holland, I can't remember the last time I saw Ireland play like that with any manager

opr

We've the oldest squad competing at the tournament. I think after this championship it will be time to start rebuilding with lots of fresh faces throughout the squad. Do people think Trap will be capable of doing this over the next two years? Should we really start building around the current style of football?

Opr

LuckyLloyd

opr wrote: »

We've the oldest squad competing at the tournament. I think after this championship it will be time to start rebuilding with lots of fresh faces throughout the squad. Do people think Trap will be capable of doing this over the next two years? Should we really start building around the current style of football?

Opr

There will be no major rebuild the next two years. Dunne and Keane have already intimated that they aren't retiring. Given and Duff may step aside, but I would expect the broad stroke of our squad to remain the same.

LuckyLloyd

G.K. wrote: »

Come on Lloyd, that's not what he said.

He never said Ireland should be playing like Spain, only that Ireland don't play as well as they could given what is available.

'If we allowed ourselves to pick the best players and play a system that actually suits us'

I don't think he's advocating for a system that is radically different to what Ireland play, but there are differences and they would help the team.

What's our ceiling? How much better should we be doing?

Orando Broom

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I would argue that the players did try their best, but the Croatians simply didn't allow us to play our typical game.

I think O'Shea was a shadow of himself, I though Keane was a non-existant. I think Given was/is injured and Dunne looked miles off the pace. I think where you could normally rely on those guys to put in the big game they were just not right, injury, form, fitness the full gamut, those boys were not operating at an optimum level. I think that is the difference between Ireland having a 'Russia' and Ireland having a 'Croatia'.

I agree that Bilic got his tactics spot on against Ireland and I'm not saying we'd have beaten them if those guys were on top of thier game but I think we made Croatia look, really, really, really good.

bilic pressed Ireland high, he had his centre backs literally up the holes of our forwards. It was tactical that Corluka was so close to Doyle. I think had Corluka been 100% he wouldn't have conceded the frees. Schiedenfeld was also up Keane's arse hence he started to drift out deep and wide where his threat was nullified.

noodler

Orando Broom wrote: »

I think O'Shea was a shadow of himself, I though Keane was a non-existant. I think Given was/is injured and Dunne looked miles off the pace. I think where you could normally rely on those guys to put in the big game they were just not right, injury, form, fitness the full gamut, those boys were not operating at an optimum level. I think that is the difference between Ireland having a 'Russia' and Ireland having a 'Croatia'.

Keane is always non-existant. Yet he scored 7 goals in qualifying.

The cycle keeps repeating:

Keane is crap
Is our top scorer in the world cup campaign
Keane is crap
Is our top scorer in the Euro qualfiers.

For me, what has changed is his move to the States but right now that does not merit dropping him for me. Not when he is the only play we have capable if popping up with goals when despite the few chances we create.

When the next campaign starts then we can go back to the issue imo and see how playing in LA has changed him (not to mention the age issue) and assuming he does not retire.

Orando Broom wrote: »

I agree that Bilic got his tactics spot on against Ireland and I'm not saying we'd have beaten them if those guys were on top of thier game but I think we made Croatia look, really, really, really good.

We made them look good of course.

We conceded too early, Trap's system depends on that not happening.

gosplan

We are like Denmark?

Is it the clubs in the champions league, qualifying for almost every major tournament, or having won the European cup that makes people think that?

If we outlawed gaa and rugby, we could be like Denmark. That's all.

Also I am one of those disappointed by trap's lack of a plan b. I don't mean Reid or anything stupid like that, but rather that we're at a huge disadvantage once we go behind and we've no real setup to take the game to the opposition.

All that said, many of the comments in here are moronic and don't give trap any credit at all.

Historically, when Ireland play the type of game that people here seem to think would have gotten us out of this group, we actually fail to qualify for anything. And it's not because we don't get a result against a big nation, which people seem to think is the only way to measure success, but because we fcuk it up against some rubbish team.

The critics here just assume that every manager will automatically drop 0 points to nations ranked lower than us.
1. When was the last time Ireland did that?
2. How many other countries achieved it in this campaign?

That's what trap's plan is built on and that's why we qualified and no other manager has ever done it for us with such a limited group. We should be where Wales are but we're not and any criticism of trap should always take that into consideration.

Orando Broom

noodler wrote: »

Keane is always non-existant. Yet he scored 7 goals in qualifying.

The cycle keeps repeating:

Keane is crap
Is our top scorer in the world cup campaign
Keane is crap
Is our top scorer in the Euro qualfiers.

For me, what has changed is his move to the States but right now that does not merit dropping him for me. Not when he is the only play we have capable if popping up with goals when despite the few chances we create.

When the next campaign starts then we can go back to the issue imo and see how playing in LA has changed him (not to mention the age issue) and assuming he does not retire.



We made them look good of course.

We conceded too early, Trap's system depends on that not happening.

I agree with you on the cyclical love/hate thing with Keane.

I think Robbie Keane is as close to untouchable as there is on the Ireland team. Normally I would be annoyed if he was taken off barring injury. The reason is Robbie Keane in every game gives himself a chance, gets a yard, sets up an attack. Even when he does next to nothing there is a flash. There is always a moment of Robbie that gives you belief that he'll do something. Sunday night there was not even a poof of smoke. Nothing. He did not even get on the ball once in a position to set up an attack let alone threaten the goal. His one chance was the penalty shout. I think had he got that he'd probably have sparked.

He didn't look lively at all, really flat and muted. He was as well muzzled as I've ever seen him by what, has to be said, was a very pedestrian centre back.

Orando Broom

A further question is Stephen Ward now a massive liability? Again l;ike, Russia he was targetted for special treatment by Croatia, double teamed time and time again. If Italy and Spain do that.....

noodler

Orando Broom wrote: »

He didn't look lively at all, really flat and muted. He was as well muzzled as I've ever seen him by what, has to be said, was a very pedestrian centre back.

I have to admit, I was very disappinted not to see him try a trick or two against Corluka.

Definite peno though! What on earth the Croatian player (which one was it?) going through Keane at the part of the box with no impending danger is beyond me.

SirDelboy18

gosplan wrote: »

We are like Denmark?

Is it the clubs in the champions league, qualifying for almost every major tournament, or having won the European cup that makes people think that?

If we outlawed gaa and rugby, we could be like Denmark. That's all.

Also I am one of those disappointed by trap's lack of a plan b. I don't mean Reid or anything stupid like that, but rather that we're at a huge disadvantage once we go behind and we've no real setup to take the game to the opposition.

All that said, many of the comments in here are moronic and don't give trap any credit at all.

Historically, when Ireland play the type of game that people here seem to think would have gotten us out of this group, we actually fail to qualify for anything. And it's not because we don't get a result against a big nation, which people seem to think is the only way to measure success, but because we fcuk it up against some rubbish team.

The critics here just assume that every manager will automatically drop 0 points to nations ranked lower than us.
1. When was the last time Ireland did that?
2. How many other countries achieved it in this campaign?

That's what trap's plan is built on and that's why we qualified and no other manager has ever done it for us with such a limited group. We should be where Wales are but we're not and any criticism of trap should always take that into consideration.

Just to let you know, of Denmark's first 11 (My post from another thread):

2 starters play for Evian. 2 starters play for Brondby. 1 starter plays for AZ. 1 starter plays for Club Brugge. I starter plays for Sunderland (loan). 1 starter plays for Stuttgart. 1 starter plays for Liverpool. 1 starter plays for Ajax.
Hardly Europes elite now is it?

Could you point out the massive Champions League clubs please?

We are similar. They have better players in certain positions, as do we.

The comments aren't moronic, they are realistic. We had a relatively easy group and the easiest play-off imaginable. Trapattoni has done well to an extent, but we play a system that doesn't suit and we refuse to pick our best players.

Orando Broom

noodler wrote: »

I have to admit, I was very disappinted not to see him try a trick or two against Corluka.

Definite peno though! What on earth the Croatian player (which one was it?) going through Keane at the part of the box with no impending danger is beyond me.

That was Schiedenfeld.

BraziliaNZ

Orando Broom wrote: »

I agree with you on the cyclical love/hate thing with Keane.

I think Robbie Keane is as close to untouchable as there is on the Ireland team. Normally I would be annoyed if he was taken off barring injury. The reason is Robbie Keane in every game gives himself a chance, gets a yard, sets up an attack. Even when he does next to nothing there is a flash. There is always a moment of Robbie that gives you belief that he'll do something. Sunday night there was not even a poof of smoke. Nothing. He did not even get on the ball once in a position to set up an attack let alone threaten the goal. His one chance was the penalty shout. I think had he got that he'd probably have sparked.

He didn't look lively at all, really flat and muted. He was as well muzzled as I've ever seen him by what, has to be said, was a very pedestrian centre back.

Agree to an extent but he did get in position to be given a penalty that was denied. I'm sure he would have buried it.

BraziliaNZ

Orando Broom wrote: »

A further question is Stephen Ward now a massive liability? Again l;ike, Russia he was targetted for special treatment by Croatia, double teamed time and time again. If Italy and Spain do that.....

He's awful, I'm baffled as to why Kelly doesn't get in ahead of him, Kelly has never looked that bad for Ireland

ThunbergsAreGo

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Just to let you know, of Denmark's first 11 (My post from another thread):



Could you point out the massive Champions League clubs please?

We are similar. They have better players in certain positions, as do we.

The comments aren't moronic, they are realistic. We had a relatively easy group and the easiest play-off imaginable. Trapattoni has done well to an extent, but we play a system that doesn't suit and we refuse to pick our best players.

Brondy play in Europe, AZ have been Champions Leage, as have Brugge, Stuttgart, Ajax and Liverpool. Add to that Bendter who has played Champions League for Arsenal consistantly and i think they are better than us.

We have been lucky all campaign till the Croatia game, it had been coming.

gosplan

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Just to let you know, of Denmark's first 11 (My post from another thread):

2 starters play for Evian. 2 starters play for Brondby. 1 starter plays for AZ. 1 starter plays for Club Brugge. I starter plays for Sunderland (loan). 1 starter plays for Stuttgart. 1 starter plays for Liverpool. 1 starter plays for Ajax.
Hardly Europes elite now is it?

Could you point out the massive Champions League clubs please?

We are similar. They have better players in certain positions, as do we.

The comments aren't moronic, they are realistic. We had a relatively easy group and the easiest play-off imaginable. Trapattoni has done well to an extent, but we play a system that doesn't suit and we refuse to pick our best players.

Ok you've convinced me, we are like Denmark and if it wasn't for trap, we'd have Irish players that would have featured for real or barca, a national league represented in the champions league and a European cup in the trophy cabinet.

Damn you trap!

opr

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There will be no major rebuild the next two years. Dunne and Keane have already intimated that they aren't retiring. Given and Duff may step aside, but I would expect the broad stroke of our squad to remain the same.

Well then that's part of the problem. Dunne and Keane will be hitting mid 30's by the time the next tournament rolls around. It would be madness to not start a rebuilding job and completely shortsighted. Just because Trap won't undertake that rebuild doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. We may stand a better chance of qualifying for the next tournament but it will be to the long term detriment of Irish football.

Opr

G.K.

gosplan wrote: »

Ok you've convinced me, we are like Denmark and if it wasn't for trap, we'd have Irish players that would have featured for real or barca, a national league represented in the champions league and a European cup in the trophy cabinet.

Damn you trap!

That isn't what he was saying. Cop on.

Just because you disagree with other posters doesn't allow you to be like that.

ThunbergsAreGo

opr wrote: »

Well then that's part of the problem. Dunne and Keane will be hitting mid 30's by the time the next tournament rolls around. It would be madness to not start a rebuilding job and completely shortsighted. Just because Trap won't undertake that rebuild doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. We may stand a better chance of qualifying for the next tournament but it will be to the long term detriment of Irish football.

Opr

The parallells with 94 and Jack/Trap are rather apparent

Orando Broom

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Agree to an extent but he did get in position to be given a penalty that was denied. I'm sure he would have buried it.

But that was it. If Schiedenfled had not had a brain fart and gone through him I'm not sure he'd have done much with it. He just looked so out of it.

For me it was the best possible outcome, Keane getting clattered and getting a penalty and burying it and giving him a lift.

Orando Broom

opr wrote: »

Well then that's part of the problem. Dunne and Keane will be hitting mid 30's by the time the next tournament rolls around. It would be madness to not start a rebuilding job and completely shortsighted. Just because Trap won't undertake that rebuild doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. We may stand a better chance of qualifying for the next tournament but it will be to the long term detriment of Irish football.

Opr

There is nothing to suggest he won't. He dispensed with the indispensible Kilbane. That is proof that Trap will move players along. There has been no one in the squad up to now that was or is past it, bar Kilbane. Robbie Keane is the type of player who potentially could stay at the top (had he not retired to L.A) well into his thirties. He never had that electric pace so a part of his game that never existed can't be lost. Dunne Likewise.

G.K.

Orando Broom wrote: »

There is nothing to suggest he won't. He dispensed with the indispensible Kilbane. That is proof that Trap will move players along. There has been no one in the squad up to now that was or is past it, bar Kilbane. Robbie Keane is the type of player who potentially could stay at the top (had he not retired to L.A) well into his thirties. He never had that electric pace so a part of his game that never existed can't be lost. Dunne Likewise.

Paul Green?

Orando Broom

G.K. wrote: »

Paul Green?

Born in 1983. He's only 29. He has another three or four years at least left in him.

G.K.

Different definition of past it I suppose.

Orando Broom

G.K. wrote: »

Different definition of past it I suppose.

Looks like it.

opr

Orando Broom wrote: »

There is nothing to suggest he won't. He dispensed with the indispensible Kilbane. That is proof that Trap will move players along. There has been no one in the squad up to now that was or is past it, bar Kilbane. Robbie Keane is the type of player who potentially could stay at the top (had he not retired to L.A) well into his thirties. He never had that electric pace so a part of his game that never existed can't be lost. Dunne Likewise.

The indispensable Kilbane who is 35? I am talking about gutting a team with a complete overhaul which favours youth to build something for the future. The cycle for this current squad should be over for the most part with the emphasis on bringing through a new squad of players which will be together for the next 10 years.

Opr

noodler

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There will be no major rebuild the next two years. Dunne and Keane have already intimated that they aren't retiring. Given and Duff may step aside, but I would expect the broad stroke of our squad to remain the same.

Have both actually said that?

opr wrote: »

Well then that's part of the problem. Dunne and Keane will be hitting mid 30's by the time the next tournament rolls around. It would be madness to not start a rebuilding job and completely shortsighted. Just because Trap won't undertake that rebuild doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. We may stand a better chance of qualifying for the next tournament but it will be to the long term detriment of Irish football.

Opr

We agree on alot LuckyLoyld (and I recognise that you fell you are stating a fact rather than opinion) but if Trap doesn't start looking at other players (even for the squad) in the next campaign then serious questions will have to be asked.

Its up to him to give people like Coleman and Clarke a chance to show they can operate in his system.

We badly need to find a centre-half and midfielder from somewhere though. Dunne's niggles are only likely to get worse even if he does stick around next campaign and we don't want ot be relying on an ageing O'Shea and championship sub in St Ledger to fill in.

Orando Broom

opr wrote: »

The indispensable Kilbane who is 35? I am talking about gutting a team with a complete overhaul which favours youth to build something for the future. The cycle for this current squad should be over for the most part with the emphasis on bringing through a new squad of players which will be together for the next 10 years.

Opr

The dude played nearly fifty games uninterrupted. Trap cut him lose without prejudice. Not even a demotion to the squad. Gone, good luck and thanks!

No international side would overhaul without a serious reaosn. If Given, et al retire then fair enough. Look at France not allowing Zidane and Makaele to retire pre Euro 2008. England would give John Terry's nutsack for Scholes to come back.

Would you favour getting hosed routinely, our co-efficent going out the door creating a cycle where it is harder and harder to qualify as our seeding disappears in favour of giving the youngsters a chance? Seriously?

We have some awesome players coming thorugh. I'd rather Trap have Ireland as top or second seeds going into easier groups where qualification is routine where younsters can get international competitive games we are winnign at a canter than slogging around learning the hard way by being picked apart by cute experienced sides like Armenia and Montenegro.

Look at how easy Ireland's qualification was for Italia '90. as straightforward an exercise you'd ever have. That is becuase we were seeded in an easy draw. The most important thing for Ireland would be to finish second in the World Cup and go to a play-off. That will not be done by kids. Not by a long way. I'd hope no one retires and gives us an experienced battle hardened squad that will make life very easy for the kids.

frisbeeface

I think the most frustrating thing for me in the Trap debate is how he creates a rod for his own back by never giving anyone promising a chance. Picking the same players for every friendly is frustrating. I don't know if Hoolahan or McCarthy or Kelly, etc would improve the team, I think that they would but maybe they wouldn't. I can't understand why Trap doesn't start a couple of them in friendlies though, that's the only way we'd actually know if they would be an improvement.

kitakyushu

Orando Broom wrote: »

Look at how easy Ireland's qualification was for Italia '90. as straightforward an exercise you'd ever have. That is becuase we were seeded in an easy draw.

What are you talking about? Ireland were 4th seeds for that group. They made it look "easy" because they were a top quality team.

FYI Ireland have qualified for 5 tournaments to date and 4 of those times we were 3rd seed or lower. You should should probably change your tune and be hoping for a low seed as it appears to be the only thing they respond to.

SantryRed

We got pissed on for the large part on Sunday night. The only reason we came back into it IMO is the Croats took their foot off the pedal with the Italian game in mind.

Trap has got to abandon the 4-4-2 formation as we haven't got a fcuking hope with it against the bigger teams last night. The problem is neither Doyle or Keane is given the job of dropping in on Modric when the opposition has the ball. What happened then was both of them were dropping in to a degree giving us absolutely no quick outlet when we won the ball back so Croatia immediately retained position. Every time Walters has played for Ireland he has done a fantastic job of holding up the ball.

I think if we're going to go into the Spain game dramatic changes are needed. I would drop both Keane and Doyle out of necessity and play Walters up top and bring Gibson into midfield to make it a proper midfield 5. It's our only hope. Ward needs to be dropped too. My god he's had a few stinkers. Play O'Shea over there and bring in Kelly right full.

Edit: IMO the system has never properly worked. And it never ever works against 4-5-1

RGDATA!

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Armenia were a better footballing side than we were in the qualies.

i'd agree. do you think we'd have done any better against them had we tried to play them at their own game instead of playing to our strengths?

Orando Broom

SantryRed wrote: »

We got pissed on for the large part on Sunday night. The only reason we came back into it IMO is the Croats took their foot off the pedal with the Italian game in mind.

Trap has got to abandon the 4-4-2 formation as we haven't got a fcuking hope with it against the bigger teams last night. The problem is neither Doyle or Keane is given the job of dropping in on Modric when the opposition has the ball. What happened then was both of them were dropping in to a degree giving us absolutely no quick outlet when we won the ball back so Croatia immediately retained position. Every time Walters has played for Ireland he has done a fantastic job of holding up the ball.

I think if we're going to go into the Spain game dramatic changes are needed. I would drop both Keane and Doyle out of necessity and play Walters up top and bring Gibson into midfield to make it a proper midfield 5. It's our only hope. Ward needs to be dropped too. My god he's had a few stinkers. Play O'Shea over there and bring in Kelly right full.

I thought Modric played really high up the pitch. In fact he occupied a similar space to what Ibrahimovic for Sweden did for large parts of the second half. I think it would have required Doyle or Keane coming off and Gibson coming on to nullify him.

Seaneh

RGDATA! wrote: »

i'd agree. do you think we'd have done any better against them had we tried to play them at their own game instead of playing to our strengths?

We allowed a team made of nobodies time and space on the ball and sat deep and barely got a result.

If we actually tried to play football, we would have played them off the park.

Ireland might be Wolves or Aston Villa level, but Armenia are about the same level of Doncaster Rovers.

Orando Broom

kitakyushu wrote: »

What are you talking about? Ireland were 4th seeds for that group. They made it look "easy" because they were a top quality team.

FYI Ireland have qualified for 5 tournaments to date and 4 of those times we were 3rd seed or lower. You should should probably change your tune and be hoping for a low seed as it appears to be the only thing they respond to.

I always thought they were ahead of Hungary and N.I. They had qualified for the Euros by the time the draw was made. N.I and Hungary hadn't.

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What we've been doing the last four years has made us consistent, competitive and got us in these games. Do people deny that? If 18th in the world and getting eliminated from a terribly tough group is "mediocre", what is "success"?

So, let's hear it. If this isn't our ceiling, what is? What should we be achieving?

The problem with a discussion like this is that international competition and all its variability is not a predictable enough test bed.

We got a piss easy qualifying group (we had to qualify ahead of Armenia in the end), a piss easy playoff and a nasty group in the finals. Qualifying for the finals and then going home quickly from the group is acceptable in those circumstances. It doesn't prove that a manager is shìt hot, nor does it prove that he is shìt. If we had qualified out of a more difficult qualification group or failed to get passed Estonia or something, then the results would provide more solid evidence as to how the manager is doing.

If you insist on only judging a manager on results then when the results are inconclusive, like they are now, the sensible option is to stick with what you have, because continuity is important also.

However imo, I (and you and others) know enough about football to judge how a manager is doing based on performance as well as results. Results are the sole aim of football, but that doesn't make them the best predictors for future success. The actual performances out of this team do not convince me that the manager is doing a good enough job.

Just to be clear, when I'm talking about performance, I'm not talking about entertainment or any of that shìte. I'm talking about the effectiveness and consistency of the tactics and execution.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So, what people want is for us to be the best version of Spain / Germany that we can muster? Newsflash: the players ommitted like Clarke / Hoolahan / etc aren't good enough right now either.

I'd be happy for us to be the best version of a defensive team we can muster. Whether that be a long ball positional play team (play with our best target man and press high up the pitch); a park the bus counter attacking team (play with our fastest forward(s) and get the midfield to sit deep); a smothering team (play five in midfield and maybe mix in some man marking on key opposition players); whatever. Instead what we do is a wishy washy neither nor version of a defensive team that leaves huge gaps in midfield and has a toothless counter attack.

I'll admit that I'm not a fan of defensive football generally, but if we're going to follow that strategy we shouldn't be so easy to play through and so reliant on Dunne, Given and luck to keep the opposition out.

SantryRed

Orando Broom wrote:

I thought Modric played really high up the pitch. In fact he occupied a similar space to what Ibrahimovic for Sweden did for large parts of the second half. I think it would have required Doyle or Keane coming off and Gibson coming on to nullify him.

He did at first but as we dropped deeper he started coming to the defenders to take the ball off them. I think both need to be dropped as Walters does a better job than Doyle and Keane can't play up top alone.

G.K.

Seaneh wrote: »

We allowed a team made of nobodies time and space on the ball and sat deep and barely got a result.

If we actually tried to play football, we would have played them off the park.

Ireland might be Wolves or Aston Villa level, but Armenia are about the same level of Doncaster Rovers.

That said armenia have the best footballer from either country.

eagle eye

Xavi6 wrote: »

So for the next two years we just sit around, watch the games and pass no comment or judgement because 'that's just the way it is, tough shit?".

Yeah that's not going to work for me, sorry.

Its alright to discuss things about the team but to even suggest he shouldn't have been extended is ludicrous.

What he has done with this team in incredible. There is no way a team with a choice of Andrews, Whelan and Gibson in midfield should be anywhere near the Euros but he got us there.

And suggesting this is somehow a fluke rather than an achievement is rubbish. This man has won Serie A 7 times, he has won the Bundesliga, the Portugese Superliga and the Austrian league, he has won the Champion's League, the Uefa Cup 3 times I believe and the Cup winners cup along with numerous domestic cups. The man knows how to put a team together and exceed expectations.