Trap Watch

noodler

Pro. F wrote: »

We got a piss easy qualifying group (we had to qualify ahead of Armenia in the end), a piss easy playoff and a nasty group in the finals. Qualifying for the finals and then going home quickly from the group is acceptable in those circumstances. It doesn't prove that a manager is shìt hot, nor does it prove that he is shìt. If we had qualified out of a more difficult qualification group or failed to get passed Estonia or something, then the results would provide more solid evidence as to how the manager is doing.

I wish people would stop saying that. We has a far superior Russian team in our group who may be in with a chance to win the Euros.

We had a Slovakia team which has alot of talent in it and were second seeds in the draw and had an excellent WC in 2010 beating the World Champions.

We had Macedonia who never lie down.

We had the biggest surprise package imaginable from a 5th seed in Armenia (hammered Slovakia twice, held Russia, we scraped past them).

The Play-off draw - fair enough, but the group was not piss-easy.

plasmaguy

I think the current team just might have had its day and time to let the youngsters have a run out for the last two games.

A couple of the older players were never the quickest in their prime but time and injuries has caught up with them.

As for McLean, who knows, I don't think he would be over-awed by the game against Spain or Italy, he's played at Old Trafford, Emirates and so on and did alright, in fact very well, so he'd be well used to big games and pressure and I don't think he will implode and never play well for Ireland again.

We've nothing to lose, worth a gamble at least. Sometimes Trap opens his trap too quickly and says something that in hindsight he should have considered more. Its admirable that he doesn't want to throw young players in at the deep end too early, but at this stage, we've nothing left to lose. Should he be started ahead of McGeady though? I'd definitely start Long ahead of one of our strikers and maybe both of them in a one man attack.

Father Damo

frisbeeface wrote: »

I think the most frustrating thing for me in the Trap debate is how he creates a rod for his own back by never giving anyone promising a chance. Picking the same players for every friendly is frustrating. I don't know if Hoolahan or McCarthy or Kelly, etc would improve the team, I think that they would but maybe they wouldn't. I can't understand why Trap doesn't start a couple of them in friendlies though, that's the only way we'd actually know if they would be an improvement.

Trap is terrified of players who might go off the pre plan and show personal initiative and independent ideas. He has an aversion to young players who might be tempted to do it, apart from the odd exception he religiously sticks to the old guard. McClean is only in the squad due to the sheer weight of public pressure, I honestly reckon the FAI warned him leaving him out would be a step too far in defying public opinion (not that he doesnt deserve to be in the squad, he does, but I honestly dont reckon Trap wanted him until the next campaign after one or two of the older lads have called it quits)

Unfortunately, in those rare occasions we have to chase a lead, we never seem to have anything to offer, going down a goal was never part of the plan and therefore we dont seem to have a Plan B. I was praying we would have some new approach after the first half and yet if anything we started to look tired and past it beyond 70 mins, it looked clear by then we were not going to draw it.

Seaneh

G.K. wrote: »

That said armenia have the best footballer from either country.

I don't think that's true at all, they just actually keep the ball on the ground.

Professional footballers should at least be able to do that.

I remember when McCarthy was at sunderland and they got the lowest points total in the premiership ever, when a jounro asked what the problem was he was totally honest and said something along the lines of the following.

The players aren't comfortable on the ball, the midfielders cannot seem to pass the ball 15 yards of either foot, professional footballers have no excuse for not being able to play a simple pass to a team mate in space instead of hoofing it long to nothing and constantly giving possession away.

And he has a point.

The very least a professional footballer should be able to do is pass the ball 15-20 yards accurately off of either foot, I know Glenn Whelan and Keith Andrews can do that. I know Duff and MCGeady can do that, I know Keane can. We have players who can play it simple.

Nobody expects Ireland to play like ****ing Spain or Brazil but for the love of God, professional footballers should have the ability to atleast pass the ball to eachother on the ground without panicking and kicking it long and losing possession. The problem being that this appears to the managers "system" kick it long and sit deep, it's retarded.

SantryRed

eagle eye wrote: »

Xavi6 wrote: »

So for the next two years we just sit around, watch the games and pass no comment or judgement because 'that's just the way it is, tough shit?".

Yeah that's not going to work for me, sorry.

Its alright to discuss things about the team but to even suggest he shouldn't have been extended is ludicrous.

What he has done with this team in incredible. There is no way a team with a choice of Andrews, Whelan and Gibson in midfield should be anywhere near the Euros but he got us there.

And suggesting this is somehow a fluke rather than an achievement is rubbish. This man has won Serie A 7 times, he has won the Bundesliga, the Portugese Superliga and the Austrian league, he has won the Champion's League, the Uefa Cup 3 times I believe and the Cup winners cup along with numerous domestic cups. The man knows how to put a team together and exceed expectations.

It's been luck more than anything else that got us here. Mauled by the Russians but somehow got a 0-0 draw. Going 1-0 up away in Slovakia and blowing it quickly and then holding on for deer life. The draw at home to Slovakia was just as ropey. Then the luckiest draw in the play offs which was a piece of piss and we still didn't manage to win both legs!

It was the same in the 2010 qualifiers as well tbh.

plasmaguy

As for people saying Trap shouldn't have been extended, the alternative to Trap doesn't bear thinking about. Remember the fiasco the last time out, before Trap stepped in?

Dunphy and Giles had their man Paul Jewell all lined up...can you imagine where we'd be now if that happened.

I can't think of another manager out there I'd rather have than Trap.

We are always going to concede possession with the limited players we have, and yes our players our mostly limited.

Orando Broom

Father Damo wrote: »

Trap is terrified of players who might go off the pre plan and show personal initiative and independent ieas.

Unfortunately, in those rare occasions we have to chase a lead, we never seem to have anything to offer, going down a goal was never part of the plan and therefore we dont seem to have a Plan B. I was praying we would have some new approach after the first half and yet if anything we started to look tired and past it beyond 70 mins, it looked clear by then we were not going to draw it.

I thought this too. It was the main thing that worried me. One of the things I had underpinning our hopes was that we'd be the best conditioned team at the finals. I thoguht at the Bosnia game we looked great. full of running and sharp. I thought maybe one last day of hell in Italy would see a wind down of effort to the Croatia game. It seems the players were knackered by Hungary.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/euro-2012/9312639/Euro-2012-Giovanni-Trapattoni-rejects-talk-of-overtraining-his-Republic-of-Ireland-players-ahead-of-Croatia-opener.html

G.K.

Seaneh wrote: »

I don't think that's true at all, they just actually keep the ball on the ground.

I only meant the one guy. If you took a top ten I'd have Mkhitaryan top and probably Irish players filling up the rest of it.

eagle eye

I was talking to an older guy yesterday who listens to the pundits and tends to spout what they say as his own opinion. He was just finishing picking a team(not soccer) when we started talking about the Euros.

When we finished talking about the Euros I asked him if he had picked a certain young guy who had shown good form over the last couple of weeks and he said no. I asked him who he picked and he told me he had picked a guy who had been on the team for the last five years even though he wasn't great over the last while. This is a knockout tournament so you only get one chance. At the end of our conversation about the team he picked I reminded him of his ranting about McClean and he was embarrassed.

plasmaguy

Seaneh wrote: »

I don't think that's true at all, they just actually keep the ball on the ground.

Professional footballers should at least be able to do that.

I remember when McCarthy was at sunderland and they got the lowest points total in the premiership ever, when a jounro asked what the problem was he was totally honest and said something along the lines of the following.

The players aren't comfortable on the ball, the midfielders cannot seem to pass the ball 15 yards of either foot, professional footballers have no excuse for not being able to play a simple pass to a team mate in space instead of hoofing it long to nothing and constantly giving possession away.

And he has a point.

The very least a professional footballer should be able to do is pass the ball 15-20 yards accurately off of either foot, I know Glenn Whelan and Keith Andrews can do that. I know Duff and MCGeady can do that, I know Keane can. We have players who can play it simple.

Nobody expects Ireland to play like ****ing Spain or Brazil but for the love of God, professional footballers should have the ability to atleast pass the ball to eachother on the ground without panicking and kicking it long and losing possession. The problem being that this appears to the managers "system" kick it long and sit deep, it's retarded.

That's a fair point, but Trap came to Ireland, looked at the quality of midfielders we have and said right, I can let them knock it around the middle of the park, knowing that they are technically limited and let them lose the ball everytime or else we can play a more direct brand of football.

You can't expect to play like f*cking Barcalona with technically limited players, how many times does this have to be repeated before people cop on to it?

Seaneh

G.K. wrote: »

I only meant the one guy. If you took a top ten I'd have Mkhitaryan top and probably Irish players filling up the rest of it.

Well, yeah, he is a pretty good players, exactly what we don't have in centre mid if I'm honest.

Pro. F

eagle eye wrote: »

Its alright to discuss things about the team but to even suggest he shouldn't have been extended is ludicrous.

What he has done with this team in incredible. There is no way a team with a choice of Andrews, Whelan and Gibson in midfield should be anywhere near the Euros but he got us there.

It is not in any way incredible that a team who can select from Whelan, Andrews, S Reid, McCarthy, Fahey and Gibson, in the position you're talking about, qualified ahead of Armenia and beat Estonia in a playoff.

SantryRed

plasmaguy wrote: »

Seaneh wrote: »

I don't think that's true at all, they just actually keep the ball on the ground.

Professional footballers should at least be able to do that.

I remember when McCarthy was at sunderland and they got the lowest points total in the premiership ever, when a jounro asked what the problem was he was totally honest and said something along the lines of the following.

The players aren't comfortable on the ball, the midfielders cannot seem to pass the ball 15 yards of either foot, professional footballers have no excuse for not being able to play a simple pass to a team mate in space instead of hoofing it long to nothing and constantly giving possession away.

And he has a point.

The very least a professional footballer should be able to do is pass the ball 15-20 yards accurately off of either foot, I know Glenn Whelan and Keith Andrews can do that. I know Duff and MCGeady can do that, I know Keane can. We have players who can play it simple.

Nobody expects Ireland to play like ****ing Spain or Brazil but for the love of God, professional footballers should have the ability to atleast pass the ball to eachother on the ground without panicking and kicking it long and losing possession. The problem being that this appears to the managers "system" kick it long and sit deep, it's retarded.

That's a fair point, but Trap came to Ireland, looked at the quality of midfielders we have and said right, I can let them knock it around the middle of the park, knowing that they are technically limited and let them lose the ball everytime or else we can play a more direct brand of football.

You can't expect to play like f*cking Barcalona with technically limited players, how many times does this have to be repeated before people cop on to it?

We didn't even play a direct brand of football though. It was tapping it around the back and then when pressured it was a panic hoof up the pitch. I don't think we have a system at all tbh. Other than two holding mids. Nothing else is a system at all and it's akin to a manager at a Sunday league team calling out the players to play in a 4-4-2 and then sending them out on the pitch

plasmaguy

Just to remind people of the quality of creative midfielders other teams in this competition have:

Russia have Arshavan
Croatia have Moderic
Spain have Xavi
Italy have Pirlo
France have Nasri
Holland have Snider
Chech Republic have Radisky

Do we have any creative midfielder on the team, or in the squad or hiding somewhere in England that has the quality of these players?

And please don't suggest Wes Houlihan is in the same league as the Champions League players I mentioned.

The realistic assessment and it was Trap's realistic assessment too was that we don't.

You build your tactics and your "system" based on the players you have not the players you wish you have. Trap would look foolish building a system like Barcalona's with a bunch of limited hoof merchants and let's face it Trap inherited the hoof merchants.

You aren't going to turn a hoof merchant into a Pirlo over night or in fact ever.

tolosenc

Seaneh wrote: »

I don't think that's true at all, they just actually keep the ball on the ground.

Professional footballers should at least be able to do that.

I remember when McCarthy was at sunderland and they got the lowest points total in the premiership ever, when a jounro asked what the problem was he was totally honest and said something along the lines of the following.

The players aren't comfortable on the ball, the midfielders cannot seem to pass the ball 15 yards of either foot, professional footballers have no excuse for not being able to play a simple pass to a team mate in space instead of hoofing it long to nothing and constantly giving possession away.

And he has a point.

The very least a professional footballer should be able to do is pass the ball 15-20 yards accurately off of either foot, I know Glenn Whelan and Keith Andrews can do that. I know Duff and MCGeady can do that, I know Keane can. We have players who can play it simple.

Nobody expects Ireland to play like ****ing Spain or Brazil but for the love of God, professional footballers should have the ability to atleast pass the ball to eachother on the ground without panicking and kicking it long and losing possession. The problem being that this appears to the managers "system" kick it long and sit deep, it's retarded.

Thing is, they tried that against Croatia. Within half a dozen passes we had maneuvered ourselves into a corner, or given the ball away.

The problem is not with the skill levels of the players on the ball, it what the players who don't have the ball do when we're in possession. Look at Spain/Barcelona/any good passing side. The work awfully hard at letting the ball do all the work. Constant movement, always at least one pass on for the man in possession, always looking to be passed to. This is fundamental stuff. As a kid, I, at least, was always taught to pass and move, pass and move. It's fundamental stuff that even some of the best players out there are awful at.

plasmaguy

SantryRed wrote: »

We didn't even play a direct brand of football though. It was tapping it around the back and then when pressured it was a panic hoof up the pitch. I don't think we have a system at all tbh. Other than two holding mids. Nothing else is a system at all and it's akin to a manager at a Sunday league team calling out the players to play in a 4-4-2 and then sending them out on the pitch

Are you seriously suggesting that Trap, the most successful manager in European Club history is no better than a Sunday League Manager?

What team did you manage by the way?

G.K.

Nobody is suggesting that Ireland try to emulate Barcelona.

Seaneh

G.K. wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting that Ireland try to emulate Barcelona.

It's pointless, I stated, in the post he quoted, "nobody expects Ireland to play like spain or Brazil" and he still went and said it.

Corholio

plasmaguy wrote: »

Just to remind people of the quality of creative midfielders other teams in this competition have:

Russia have Arshavan
Croatia have Moderic
Spain have Xavi
Italy have Pirlo
France have Nasri
Holland have Snider
Chech Republic have Radisky

Do we have any creative midfielder on the team, or in the squad or hiding somewhere in England that has the quality of these players?

And please don't suggest Wes Houlihan is in the same league as the Champions League players I mentioned.

The realistic assessment and it was Trap's realistic assessment too was that we don't.

You build your players and your "system" based on the players you have not the players you wish you have. Trap would look foolish building a system like Barcalona's with a bunch of limited hoof merchants and let's face it Trap inherited the hoof merchants.

You aren't going to turn a hoof merchant into a Pirlo over night or in fact ever.

Ridiculous point IMO. Of course we don't have a player of that quality, it's the type of player that people take issue with Trap. He doesn't want to use a player of that type at all. Instead we have 2 diggers in midfield who are reasonably effective against inferior teams, and get shown up against better midfields (Russia, Croatia, even Armenia). But it's not only that, it's the fact that if we go behind or have to win games, we offer nothing there.

We're either a good team with a 14 match unbeaten run and very tough to beat, or we are labelled as inferior to a lot of teams. People mix and match what we are depending on the results, i.e. after drawing with Russia and now losing to Croatia. The fact is we're tough to beat against poor sides with the very odd exception, and completely idea less against any sort of better team.

SantryRed

plasmaguy wrote: »

SantryRed wrote: »

We didn't even play a direct brand of football though. It was tapping it around the back and then when pressured it was a panic hoof up the pitch. I don't think we have a system at all tbh. Other than two holding mids. Nothing else is a system at all and it's akin to a manager at a Sunday league team calling out the players to play in a 4-4-2 and then sending them out on the pitch

Are you seriously suggesting that Trap, the most successful manager in European Club history is no better than a Sunday League Manager?

What team did you manage by the way?

I didn't say that :rolleyes:

But we don't look like we play to any system. It was depressing on Sunday night watching it happening. I could see it occurring from a mile away when Dunne would tap it to O'Shea even though there's a player on him and Ward was in acres of space on the far side. If we play a direct brand then the balls played up to the top two have to be with quality. They are not because they are panic passes.

The reason we can't even come close to the Croatians with retaining the ball does have a lot to do with the players we have. But what is even more significant is the act it's 3 on 2 in midfield all night.

plasmaguy

Sometimes I think Trap should just show the ungrateful bandwagoners who show up at tournament time and whose "education" of football comes from listening to Giles and Dunphy, both of whom had their go at qualifying as either manager or player and failed, the two fingers and quit.

Then we might get a proper manager like that Paul Jewell bloke or maybe Howard Wilkinson or Terry Venables.

We'd never qualify for any tournament but we'd play a nice brand of football.

Banjaxed82

plasmaguy wrote: »

You can't expect to play like f*cking Barcalona with technically limited players, how many times does this have to be repeated before people cop on to it?

Nobody is asking to us to play like Barcelona. If I could wish for one thing from this Irish team (and specifically the centre midfield), it would be:

Wanting the ball. A genuine confidence to seek possession and establish some (or any) kind of control.

As long as we have 2 midfielders who fear the thought of gaining possession, and who's first thought is "how quickly can I get rid of the ball", then we're always going to struggle against any decent opposition.

The centre midfielders will always dictate how you play and until that changes to a more positive approach then our more "creative" players will always struggle to play to their potential.

tolosenc

G.K. wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting that Ireland try to emulate Barcelona.

No, but I think we could emulate Swansea.

plasmaguy

SantryRed wrote: »

I didn't say that :rolleyes:

But we don't look like we play to any system. It was depressing on Sunday night watching it happening. I could see it occurring from a mile away when Dunne would tap it to O'Shea even though there's a player on him and Ward was in acres of space on the far side. If we play a direct brand then the balls played up to the top two have to be with quality. They are not because they are panic passes.

The reason we can't even come close to the Croatians with retaining the ball does have a lot to do with the players we have. But what is even more significant is the act it's 3 on 2 in midfield all night.

Do you agree we have a limited bunch of players, relative to the likes of Spain, Italy, Germany, Russia and Croatia? This is the crux of the issue really.

You can play any system you like, you can tell your central midfielders to retain possession until you are blue in the face but if Keith Andrews, Glen Whelan, Fahy, etc aren't technically able to retain possession, whose fault is it then?

Is it Trap's fault we have a bunch of hoof merchants rared in the hoof merchant academy that is the EPL? Of course its not his fault so why do people keep blaming him?

As has been said many times before, when Trap came in he found a team of limited hoof merchants from the EPL and he's done a damn good job with the limited players he has.

plasmaguy

tolosenc wrote: »

No, but I think we could emulate Swansea.

Sad to say but a lot of our players wouldn't get on the Swansea side, but I suppose you'd blame Trap for that as well.

Sometimes limited players have to hold their hands up and admit to their limitations.

If we had good players, they would be playing with top four clubs.

kitakyushu

Trap should do this at the next press conference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY5EiRcjw9o

Orando Broom

tolosenc wrote: »

No, but I think we could emulate Swansea.

It's taken Swansea YEARS to become Swansea. Full-time, everyone at the club buying into the philosophy including successive managers. Not too many clubs that would happen at, never mind international level.

It was hardly like Trap took over a team that just needed the final push. Just to juxtapose; Jack Charlton took over a much superior squad.

ronsgonawin

plasmaguy wrote: »

Just to remind people of the quality of creative midfielders other teams in this competition have:

Russia have Arshavan
Croatia have Moderic
Spain have Xavi
Italy have Pirlo
France have Nasri
Holland have Snider
Chech Republic have Radisky

Do we have any creative midfielder on the team, or in the squad or hiding somewhere in England that has the quality of these players?

And please don't suggest Wes Houlihan is in the same league as the Champions League players I mentioned.

The realistic assessment and it was Trap's realistic assessment too was that we don't.

You build your tactics and your "system" based on the players you have not the players you wish you have. Trap would look foolish building a system like Barcalona's with a bunch of limited hoof merchants and let's face it Trap inherited the hoof merchants.

You aren't going to turn a hoof merchant into a Pirlo over night or in fact ever.

My god you can't even spell, why on earth should any listen to you!!

Pro. F

noodler wrote: »

I wish people would stop saying that. We has a far superior Russian team in our group who may be in with a chance to win the Euros.

We had a Slovakia team which has alot of talent in it and were second seeds in the draw and had an excellent WC in 2010 beating the World Champions.

We had Macedonia who never lie down.

We had the biggest surprise package imaginable from a 5th seed in Armenia (hammered Slovakia twice, held Russia, we scraped past them).

The Play-off draw - fair enough, but the group was not piss-easy.

Slovakia were poor in the group. The fact they beat an absolutely shìte Italy in the last WC doesn't prove otherwise. That Italian team also drew with New Zealand and IIRC finished bottom of their group. More importantly, that was in the past. How they did in this group was not impressive at all.

The fact Armenia did well proves that the group was weak, not that they were particularly good.

Russia were very good, even if a little inconsistent. But that doesn't matter. It was the quality competing for second spot that I am talking about. Any time when you are beating a team like Armenia into second place then the group is easy. I would take an opportunity like that for the next 100 years of qualifying groups if you offered it to me.

ronsgonawin

plasmaguy wrote: »

Sad to say but a lot of our players wouldn't get on the Swansea side, but I suppose you'd blame Trap for that as well.

Sometimes limited players have to hold their hands up and admit to their limitations.

If we had good players, they would be playing with top four clubs.

Norwich play good football too numpty!! We have a few players there too.

ronsgonawin

Orando Broom wrote: »

It's taken Swansea YEARS to become Swansea. Full-time, everyone at the club buying into the philosophy including successive managers. Not too many clubs that would happen at, never mind international level.

It was hardly like Trap took over a team that just needed the final push. Just to juxtapose; Jack Charlton took over a much superior squad.

Trap has been in charge for YEARS. What philosophy has he brought? Pass it along the back, then knock it long to nobody and invite more pressure?? Get a grip!

plasmaguy

ronsgonawin wrote: »

My god you can't even spell, why on earth should any listen to you!!

Embarrassing. Think you should address your own mastery of the English language first.

plasmaguy

ronsgonawin wrote: »

Norwich play good football too numpty!! We have a few players there too.

Trap has the players for a couple of weeks of the year, the Norwich and Swansea coaches and Guardiola and all these coaches have their players 10 months of the year.

You aren't going to convert hoofers into Pirlos in a couple of weeks.

Magic Pips

Orando Broom wrote: »

It's taken Swansea YEARS to become Swansea. Full-time, everyone at the club buying into the philosophy including successive managers. Not too many clubs that would happen at, never mind international level.

It was hardly like Trap took over a team that just needed the final push. Just to juxtapose; Jack Charlton took over a much superior squad.

The point those of us opposed to the Irish philosophy under Trap is that we should start the YEARS some time soon. Or maybe you'd be happy in a paradox of Jackie Charlton, some good years, Trap, Repeat?

Am i grateful Ireland at the the Euros - yes
Do i think we are going to do ourselves justice - no. We are one dimensional and barring a freak result will leave with a cold wake up slap across the face.

Of course to increase the skill level of irish players would take a massive expenditure... i'd rather DOB had put him Million Euro a year into youth football.

plasmaguy

Orando Broom wrote: »

It's taken Swansea YEARS to become Swansea. Full-time, everyone at the club buying into the philosophy including successive managers. Not too many clubs that would happen at, never mind international level.

It was hardly like Trap took over a team that just needed the final push. Just to juxtapose; Jack Charlton took over a much superior squad.

So you agree Trap took over a much inferior squad to Jack?

Before Jack we had some of the most creative players in the world but they couldn't qualify for anything which is a fact.

Jack qualified us for three tournaments through the long ball philosophy.

ronsgonawin

plasmaguy wrote: »

Trap has the players for a couple of weeks of the year, the Norwich and Swansea coaches and Guardiola and all these coaches have their players 10 months of the year.

You aren't going to convert hoofers into Pirlos in a couple of weeks.

You go on about Ireland not having players like Sneijder, Messi etc, and Trap has a "system", Where would these players fit in that "system"

ronsgonawin

plasmaguy wrote: »

So you agree Trap took over a much inferior squad to Jack?

Before Jack we had some of the most creative players in the world but they couldn't qualify for anything which is a fact.

Jack qualified us for three tournaments through the long ball philosophy.

Backs up my thoughts on you and your knowledge of football. Jacks long ball was totally different, when he knocked it long the first thing the midfield did was press up and "Put them under pressure".

noodler

Pro. F wrote: »

Slovakia were poor in the group. The fact they beat an absolutely shìte Italy in the last WC doesn't prove otherwise. That Italian team also drew with New Zealand and IIRC finished bottom of their group. More importantly, that was in the past. How they did in this group was not impressive at all.

That is weak sauce man!

So basically, if an otherise good team has a bad campaign against us then we forever decide that the group was easy? They won in Moscow, we couldn't beat them and they dominated us at the Aviva.

Pro. F wrote: »

The fact Armenia did well proves that the group was weak, not that they were particularly good.

I disagree completely. They gave EVERYBODY a game in Yerevan - not just Ireland, but Slovakia, Macedonia and Russia.

They were very good and no amount of revisionism is going to change that fact - I can't believe anybody could stoop to saying they were not impressive! That is about as impressive a performance from a 5th seed you are ever likely to see.

Pro. F wrote: »

Russia were very good, even if a little inconsistent. But that doesn't matter. It was the quality competing for second spot that I am talking about. Any time when you are beating a team like Armenia into second place then the group is easy. I would take an opportunity like that for the next 100 years of qualifying groups if you offered it to me.

Well, if we follow your logic then every team that ever challenged us for a play-off spot was muck.

And "Team like Armenia" is probably where our disagreement lies - you sre still thinking of them as 5th seed no-hopers when they had disproven this assertion completely by the time the game in question came about.

Seaneh

ronsgonawin wrote: »

Backs up my thoughts on you and your knowledge of football. Jacks long ball was totally different, when he knocked it long the first thing the midfield did was press up and "Put them under pressure".

Pretty much this exactly.

Jack played a pressing 4-4-2. A long ball up to Quinn/Cascarino who knocked it down to their strike partner or held it up and allowed the midfield to join the attack.

Now we just knock it long, to nobody, while our midfield is completely bypassed.

geeky

ronsgonawin wrote: »

My god you can't even spell, why on earth should any listen to you!!

Never held back Harry Redknapp....

Pro. F

plasmaguy wrote: »

Just to remind people of the quality of creative midfielders other teams in this competition have:

Russia have Arshavan
Croatia have Moderic
Spain have Xavi
Italy have Pirlo
France have Nasri
Holland have Snider
Chech Republic have Radisky

Do we have any creative midfielder on the team, or in the squad or hiding somewhere in England that has the quality of these players?

And please don't suggest Wes Houlihan is in the same league as the Champions League players I mentioned.

The realistic assessment and it was Trap's realistic assessment too was that we don't.

You build your tactics and your "system" based on the players you have not the players you wish you have. Trap would look foolish building a system like Barcalona's with a bunch of limited hoof merchants and let's face it Trap inherited the hoof merchants.

You aren't going to turn a hoof merchant into a Pirlo over night or in fact ever.

Even though the fact you mentioned the idea of trying to play like Barcelona in your post automatically makes it nonsense, I just want to point out something to you.

All you have done with that list of players is mentioned some of the best creative midfielders in the tournament from some of the best teams (and some other teams). Teams are made up of eleven players and the tournament is made up of 16 teams. Even in qualifying we saw teams like Armenia who passed it better than Ireland. Try casting your net a bit wider and looking at the available players with more depth than just picking out the star players and you might be surprised.

Orando Broom

Magic Pips wrote: »

The point those of us opposed to the Irish philosophy under Trap is that we should start the YEARS some time soon. Or maybe you'd be happy in a paradox of Jackie Charlton, some good years, Trap, Repeat?

Am i grateful Ireland at the the Euros - yes
Do i think we are going to do ourselves justice - no. We are one dimensional and barring a freak result will leave with a cold wake up slap across the face.

Of course to increase the skill level of irish players would take a massive expenditure... i'd rather DOB had put him Million Euro a year into youth football.

I think part of growing as a football nation is taking the beatings without mass hysteria. It happens every team. We as a nation have been so very unlucky in many respects with our football fortunes and in other lucky. We've been robbed blind in qualifications on several occasions but in the tournements we've probably punched about our weight. we have yet to be sent home with our tails between our legs. It might happen this time. I'd rather these things happen in June than in October /November to be honest.

I don't think pumping millions into Youth soccer will cure what ails us. look at Crumlin and the money they've gotten from Robbie Keane's transfers. there is a story to be told there yet. Money will not solve the problem. all that will happen is richer clubs will hoover up the talent and become a factory to ship them off to England. I would hope that we could devise a way to keep our players in the LOI a little longer and I accept that we'd be a selling league but at least be selling player that would not be reliant on the largesse of the Championship dross far too many our boys go to.

I'm not happy being at the mercy of managers but likewise when we had a League of Ireland cheerleader in Kerr how many players did he bring through and cap? How much better was the youth set-up under his tenure? I'm not blaming Kerr he did amazing things for Ireland but I am citing him as an example of how the best of intentions do not always result in success. Let's not even talk about Staunton.

Trap in my opinion has done a good job, however I believe there could be somewhat of a concession to the point that we have better players (in the squad) that Trap cares to admit to having. I believe our players are better. I believe they could thirve in a different more positive system. Generally I've no problem with the personnel he uses but sometimes his philosophy is too atavistic.


Comparing the Ireland requirements to the Swansea project is not a runner. It requires too much work. In Swansea you can sign a Siguradsson to bolster the philosophy. Do you think the Irish paying public would accept a manager having six or seven years without success to build a philosophy that could be dismantled by the next? Swansea got lucky that Rodgers left his ego at the door and saw the groundwork Martinez had laid as the template for his work as opposed rippin git up and starting it again.

Look at England with a far more massive pick and they are closer to Ireland than Swansea.

plasmaguy

ronsgonawin wrote: »

Backs up my thoughts on you and your knowledge of football. Jacks long ball was totally different, when he knocked it long the first thing the midfield did was press up and "Put them under pressure".

So you are in favour of hoofing it up front and then midfielders following up?

I suppose next you will say it's all Trap's fault we qualified for the Euros

And where did you manage again that gives you the right to question the most successful manager in European Club history?

It's not Trap's fault he gets to work with a bunch of hoofers for a few weeks of every year who learned their trade hoofing the ball around the fields of England for years.

That's my last post on this thread.

All I'll say is well done Trap and the lads, if they lose 5-0 in each of the remaining game, I'll still applaud them.

As for the bandwagoners, who show up when Ireland reaches a tournament to criticize this or that, they are a complete disgrace!

I'll probably get a week's ban for that, but who cares.

jmayo

plasmaguy wrote: »

Just to remind people of the quality of creative midfielders other teams in this competition have:

Russia have Arshavan
Croatia have Moderic
Spain have Xavi
Italy have Pirlo
France have Nasri
Holland have Snider
Chech Republic have Radisky

Who is Radisky ?

plasmaguy wrote: »

Do we have any creative midfielder on the team, or in the squad or hiding somewhere in England that has the quality of these players?

Ehh anytime an Irish player or eligible player appears who is in any way akin to a player that has a bit of skill and can use the ball, it does appear that Trap either has a run in with them menaing they are dropped or they are ignored and pushed to the periphery of the squad.

Has anyone cared to notice the players that Trap has had major toruble with ?
First there was Andy Reid, then he couldn't get or didn't want Ireland back.
Then we had the treatment of McCarthy and Seamus Coleman.
Now we have him publicly stating that he doesn't think McClean, one of the brightest prospects in the last 6 months of the PL, is good enough and that a so so striker who can't get his game for his club is better out of position than him.

How come the English manager thinks Oxlade Chamberlain is good enough to start ?

Now I am not saying any of the above are the same quality as Sneijder, Pirlo, Modric, Nasri, Ribbery, Xavi, Fabregas, etc, but they are a damm sight better than Whelan, Andrews, Green, McGeady, and Gibson.

plasmaguy wrote: »

And please don't suggest Wes Houlihan is in the same league as the Champions League players I mentioned.

Ehh nobody has, but I think they have said he is better than what is on the pitch and in the squad.

plasmaguy wrote: »

The realistic assessment and it was Trap's realistic assessment too was that we don't.

You build your tactics and your "system" based on the players you have not the players you wish you have. Trap would look foolish building a system like Barcalona's with a bunch of limited hoof merchants and let's face it Trap inherited the hoof merchants.

What fooking tactics ?
We were a shambles the other night, with the two full backs just hoofing the ball forward into no mans land, ala O'Gara in Rugby.
The midfield didn't attack or defend.
Of course the fact that Andrews got on end of crosses in box and had a couple of long range shots is seen to explain his entire night on the pitch.

And please stop being facetious claiming we shoudl be like Barcelona. :rolleyes:

plasmaguy wrote: »

You aren't going to turn a hoof merchant into a Pirlo over night or in fact ever.

As for hoof mechants, Wimbledon actually played a better brand of hoofing it than us.
Anyway I can see you will continue to bend over backwards to defend Trap.

As for those that claim Trap was the best manager ever in Europe.
The word there folks is WAS.
He had been whiling away his time in the Austrian league when we found him.
He had been a failure in Stuttgart and is last big result was with Benfica back in 2004.
Two of Italy's worst recent tournaments were while Trap was in charge.

He may have been great once, but then again so Daglish.

noodler

plasmaguy wrote: »

It's not Trap's fault he gets to work with a bunch of hoofers for a few weeks of every year who learned their trade hoofing the ball around the fields of England for years.

In fairness, even though Stan's campaign was an utter disaster, it is wuite clear there was a change in style (the hoofing) when Trap took over that wasn't part of the Stan, Kerr or McCarthy eras.

I am all for applauding what Trap had done in four years but lets be honest about him owning the strategies.

plasmaguy

jmayo wrote: »

plasmaguy wrote: »

Just to remind people of the quality of creative midfielders other teams in this competition have:

Russia have Arshavan
Croatia have Moderic
Spain have Xavi
Italy have Pirlo
France have Nasri
Holland have Snider
Chech Republic have Radisky

Who are Snider and Radisky ?

plasmaguy wrote: »

Do we have any creative midfielder on the team, or in the squad or hiding somewhere in England that has the quality of these players?

Ehh anytime an Irish player or eligible player appears who is in any way akin to a player that has a bit of skill and can use the ball, it does appear that Trap either has a run in with them menaing they are dropped or they are ignored and pushed to the periphery of the squad.

Has anyone cared to notice the players that Trap has had major toruble with ?
First there was Andy Reid, then he couldn't get or didn't want Ireland back.
Then we had the treatment of McCarthy and Seamus Coleman.
Now we have him publicly stating that he doesn't think McClean, one of the brightest prospects in the last 6 months of the PL, is not good enough and that a so so striker who can't get his game for his club is better out of position than him.

How come the English manager thinks Oxlade Chamberlain is good enough to start ?

Now I am not saying any of the above are the same quality as Sneijder, Pirlo, Modric, Nasri, Ribbery, Xavi, Fabregas, etc, but they are a damm sight better than Whelan, Andrews, Green, McGeady, and Gibson.

plasmaguy wrote: »

And please don't suggest Wes Houlihan is in the same league as the Champions League players I mentioned.

Ehh nobody has, but It hink they have said he is better than what is on the pitch and in the squad.



As for hoof mechants, Wimbledon actually played a better brand of hoofing it than us.
Anyway I can see you will continue to bend over backwards to defend Trap.

As for those that claim Trap was the best manager ever in Europe.
The word there folks is WAS.
He had been whiling away his time in the Austrian league when we found him.
He had been a failure in Stuttgart and is last big result was with Benfica back in 2004.
Two of Italy's worst recent tournaments were while Trap was in charge.

He may have been great once, but then again so Daglish.

So you're saying Andy Reid is as good as Pirlo, Xavi and Modric? I've heard it all now! This is typical of the hyberbole that comes from the Anti Trap brigade.

Poor old Andy Reid, our greatest midfielder ever, better than Brady, Giles and Keane put together, better than Xavi and Pirlo, should be world player of the year, and so on and so forth.

Where is Andy Reid these days by the way?

ronsgonawin

plasmaguy wrote: »

So you are in favour of hoofing it up front and then midfielders following up?

I suppose next you will say it's all Trap's fault we qualified for the Euros

And where did you manage again that gives you the right to question the most successful manager in European Club history?

It's not Trap's fault he gets to work with a bunch of hoofers for a few weeks of every year who learned their trade hoofing the ball around the fields of England for years.

That's my last post on this thread.

All I'll say is well done Trap and the lads, if they lose 5-0 in each of the remaining game, I'll still applaud them.

As for the bandwagoners, who show up when Ireland reaches a tournament to criticize this or that, they are a complete disgrace!

I'll probably get a week's ban for that, but who cares.

It is better than what has been played now.

most successful manager in European Club history? Please elaborate on this for me?

Xavi6

jmayo wrote: »

He may have been great once, but then again so Daglish.

Coillte_Bhoy

plasmaguy wrote: »

That's a fair point, but Trap came to Ireland, looked at the quality of midfielders we have and said right, I can let them knock it around the middle of the park, knowing that they are technically limited and let them lose the ball everytime or else we can play a more direct brand of football.

You can't expect to play like f*cking Barcalona with technically limited players, how many times does this have to be repeated before people cop on to it?

And how many ****ing times do we have to say that nobody, absolutely nobody is expecting us to play like Barcelona. You do realise there is more than 2 ways to play football dont you? Actually no, you probably dont

Magic Pips

Orando Broom wrote: »

I think part of growing as a football nation .....they are closer to Ireland than Swansea.

I think our opinions on the matter are closer than you think. Of course throwing money at something (especially the way ireland is right now) would be folly.

I only wanted to broach the subject as a 'btw', i think if we continue down the path we'd derail the thread.

We can agree that ireland, and the players currently at the disposal of the management are not what they should be?

I have respect for what Trap has done over the years, he's into his 70's now and out dated (please dont mention SAF, he has been at one club for millennia now and performs to the highest level). I appreciate what he's done to get us here. My fear is now that we're here we dont take the chances to let the youth lose.