ERSI: Cost of working 'too high'

Bell Butter

I really believe the Germans will do it this year, they'll step in and demand we reduce it to German levels, €350 per month I think. Then the government will just say "well you voted for the fiscal treaty so it's your fault, don't blame us"

All these reports are just coming out to make the case for it in the future.

Anyone

christmas2012 wrote: »

When did i ever say those that are working are entitled to starve?Its their own fault if the borrowed from boom to bust over the fake boom celtic tiger years..

But its someone else's fault if you have to be homeless due to a dole cut?

Bell Butter

christmas2012 wrote: »

When did i ever say those that are working are entitled to starve?Its their own fault if the borrowed from boom to bust over the fake boom celtic tiger years..

Sick of hearing this rubbish. I didn't borrow heavily during the boom ok!?! And I pay a savage amount of tax. I didn't buy the over priced house, I bought before the orgy began.

hondasam

christmas2012 wrote: »

When did i ever say those that are working are entitled to starve?Its their own fault if the borrowed from boom to bust over the fake boom celtic tiger years..

Now you think it's only people who bought houses in the boom who are struggling, you must have lead a shelter life. Majority of families are struggling in some way.

Can you not move home and save on food, bills rent etc?

micropig

christmas2012 wrote: »

Before people start going and jumping on the cut the dole /slash the dole bandwagon,just think one day YOU could be stuck on the dole,and how would you react to that?

Lets be realistic those who are on the dole,do not have a second source of income,they dont have any funds available to them other than what they get off of welfare,if you cut that and they cannot afford their rent for that week they become homeless as a result..

I know if that happened to me i would sue the state..

Maybe it might spur more people on to become entrepreneurs and start their own business?

PrincessLola

I dunno how working parents cope tbh.

If creche on average is about 900 - 1200 euro per month, that is all of what someone on minimum wage earns per month.

So before people b*tch about single mothers who don't work, think of the logistics of it. They'd only be working to pay the creche fees.

christmas2012

Anyone wrote: »

But its someone else's fault if you have to be homeless due to a dole cut?

You obviously havent read my previous post,i was saying if my dole got cut,by the dopey so and so joan burton,and i couldnt afford to pay my landlord,i would sue the state,as the root cause of my homelessness was that thoughtless reactionary cut to all the sensationalism and statistic posing thats going on..
remember 44% of families less than 50% said theyd be better off..

Monty Burnz

PrincessLola wrote: »

So before people b*tch about single mothers who don't work, think of the logistics of it. They'd only be working to pay the creche fees.

I guess the problem is when the single mothers don't bother working when the kids are past the age of creche expenses, or churn out a child every few years with a different man and allow the taxpayer to pick up the bill for the whole lot.

Monty Burnz

christmas2012 wrote: »

You obviously havent read my previous post,i was saying if my dole got cut,by the dopey so and so joan burton,and i couldnt afford to pay my landlord,i would sue the state,as the root cause of my homelessness was that thoughtless reactionary cut to all the sensationalism and statistic posing thats going on..
remember 44% of families less than 50% said theyd be better off..

Or to put it another way, very nearly half - which is absolutely astounding. If it was 5%, I'd say it needs to be looked at. 44%???

Bell Butter

christmas2012 wrote: »

You obviously havent read my previous post,i was saying if my dole got cut,by the dopey so and so joan burton,and i couldnt afford to pay my landlord,i would sue the state,as the root cause of my homelessness was that thoughtless reactionary cut to all the sensationalism and statistic posing thats going on..
remember 44% of families less than 50% said theyd be better off..

Which is the point of a report like this, to make the case for a cut, it's politics.

stovelid

hondasam wrote: »

It's the workers who are struggling at the moment not the people on the dole.

Fucking hell.

What a chestnut.

Red_Wake

christmas2012, are you on the dole?

seamus

Bell Butter wrote: »

Which is the point of a report like this, to make the case for a cut, it's politics.

Having flicked through the paper it's actually more of an academic research paper aimed at simply pointing out the differences (in general) between working and not working for a family, as well as deriving a few statistical points and curios - such as the fact that working people are 1.5 times more likely to get a take-away than unemployed people. Which kind of flies in the face of the chipper-eating dole scrounger stereotype.

The figures in use are from the household budget survey in 2004/2005 and as such the specific figures are close to 8 years out of date and as such not really useful for any kind of modern decision-making.

It provides useful academic fodder, and I'm sure that there are functions and calculations that can be applied to adjust for the massive changes in personal income and expenditure over the last 8 years, but even if this were a political attempt to soften people up for a social welfare cut, it would be horrendously ill-advised to use the figures in this paper as a basis for it.

What appears to be a bit of intellectual craic for a few ESRI academics seems to have been jumped on by the media without any kind of rational look at what it is.

christmas2012

I am on the dole and its not by choice,its an absolute nightmare and a struggle like for most people on the dole i would imagine..

smash

christmas2012 wrote: »

Its their own fault if the borrowed from boom to bust over the fake boom celtic tiger years..

You're some piece of work. Your logic dictates that someone who works hard and who bought a house should be allowed starve and struggle, but someone who lives off the state should get it all for free.

PrincessLola

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I guess the problem is when the single mothers don't bother working when the kids are past the age of creche expenses, or churn out a child every few years with a different man and allow the taxpayer to pick up the bill for the whole lot.

But how many unskilled jobs out their conveniently end at 2:45 so you can go pick up your kids from school?

Also I'm not convinced how widespread that last part is.

christmas2012

Im not saying they should starve or struggle but if they borrowed up to the gills they should be more responsible for their actions,however if a situation is out of your control and the state cut your dole there is nothing you can do about it you dont have choice,while those who borrowed did have choice..

CruelCoin

christmas2012 wrote: »

Ze germans can demand cuts from elsewhere im sure they will find handsome cuts if they cut those who are living at yours and my expense,who are still living the life of reilly even after the celtic tiger bust..

How dare they live a life of luxury after working hard for it. The cheek!

Also, the germans can demand anything they want. Short of finding the money elsewhere (which we can't) we are the beggars, they are the choosers.

CruelCoin

christmas2012 wrote: »

I know if that happened to me i would sue the state..

Lol, that would be gas.

"wah, u no give me free monies, wah"

christmas2012

no its not a joke if joan burton cut your dole and you can barely afford to keep your head above water..its hardly a joke if that cut to your dole was the ONE REASON you became homeless,and evicted as the landlord would not put the price of rent down..

OldNotWIse

hondasam wrote: »

People who are working might not have funds either except their wages on Friday, who will they sue when they can't pay rent or mortgage?

yup. My colleague and myself last week decided to bite the bullet and write down exactly what we have coming in and going out. We both work full time and never seem to have anything for ourselves. The result was dismally bleak - I am left with the equivalent of one hours pay to "play" with, he is left with slighly less. We just sat there saying, "I cannot believe I am working full time and my only reward at the end of the week is one hours pay. The other 39 hours are spoken for before they even happen" - I was so sorry we did the calculation in the first place :rolleyes:

OldNotWIse

PrincessLola wrote: »

I dunno how working parents cope tbh.

If creche on average is about 900 - 1200 euro per month, that is all of what someone on minimum wage earns per month.

So before people b*tch about single mothers who don't work, think of the logistics of it. They'd only be working to pay the creche fees.

This is true. I used to have very little sympathy for people who complaine dabout the cost of childcare. I wondered why they would have children if they couldnt afford childcare or for one parent to stay at home. But I feel sorry for people who had children when times were ok and now have been laid off etc. It's not like you can send the children back when the chips are down It's ideal when a parent can find work that fits around the school day but in times like these, employers are hardly likely to be this flexible.

Bell Butter

christmas2012 wrote: »

no its not a joke if joan burton cut your dole and you can barely afford to keep your head above water..its hardly a joke if that cut to your dole was the ONE REASON you became homeless,and evicted as the landlord would not put the price of rent down..

What about the people that are still working, struggling, earning good money but getting taxed to the gills? They have no control when the government raises taxes, it's the same as cutting the dole. The disposable income is reduced.

I think everyone that can't pay their bills after the next tax hike should sue the state, sure fúck it, it was their fault, they raised taxes.:rolleyes:

Anyone

christmas2012 wrote: »

no its not a joke if joan burton cut your dole and you can barely afford to keep your head above water..its hardly a joke if that cut to your dole was the ONE REASON you became homeless,and evicted as the landlord would not put the price of rent down..

No...the reason you are homeless is because you are not earning enough money to pay for private rented accommodation. So either earn more(which given your circumstances is not going to happen) or pay less for your accommodation.

By the way Christmas2012, when you decide to sue the state, can you make sure you use your own money to pay for it. Even though its called "Free Legal Aid" it still has to be paid for.

Monty Burnz

stovelid wrote: »

Fucking hell.

What a chestnut.

Chestnut or no, it's true. The dole hasn't been cut, but wages have gone down.

Monty Burnz

PrincessLola wrote: »

But how many unskilled jobs out their conveniently end at 2:45 so you can go pick up your kids from school?

So people need to organise childcare from 2.30 to 5.30 or whatever. A business opportunity for somebody? Or just a community organisation? Not rocket science, certainly.

PrincessLola wrote: »

Also I'm not convinced how widespread that last part is.

I don't think it's a majority of single parents by any means, but I certainly think it happens a lot.

christmas2012

Bell Butter wrote: »

I think everyone that can't pay their bills after the next tax hike should sue the state, sure fúck it, it was their fault, they raised taxes.:rolleyes:

I would sue the state on the principle of it,i have been made homeless due to that dole cut,ive been ****ed out on the street because some high paid earner has decided to cut my dole ,yeah i would take issue..

And those who are working and getting taxed their still better off a whole 50 % of them still a good percentage,remember less than half of the study who participated did say they were worse off,and childcare is probably the biggest reason,if they had grown up kids or teenagers they wouldnt be paying childcare so they would be better off..

I dont think it is a good enough reason to persecute the poor who are not on the dole by choice..

laoch na mona

dole isn't to high its the extra things you struggle to get if you have any kind of **** job
like back to school and medical card

CruelCoin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

It's ideal when a parent can find work that fits around the school day but in times like these, employers are hardly likely to be this flexible.

I'm an employer.

We are still fairly flexible in holidays and hours.

provided that staff do 40 hours and the odd extra as we need it, then i really don't mind what times or days they do it.

Monty Burnz

christmas2012 wrote: »

I would sue the state on the principle of it,i have been made homeless due to that dole cut,ive been ****ed out on the street because some high paid earner has decided to cut my dole ,yeah i would take issue..

You would be laughed out of court.

By the way, I've highlighted something in your post that you seem to throw out as in insult. Strange attitude. What do you do for a living?

CruelCoin

christmas2012 wrote: »

I would sue the state on the principle of it,i have been made homeless due to that dole cut,ive been ****ed out on the street because some high paid earner has decided to cut my dole ,yeah i would take issue..

And those who are working and getting taxed their still better off a whole 50 % of them still a good percentage,remember less than half of the study who participated did say they were worse off,and childcare is probably the biggest reason,if they had grown up kids or teenagers they wouldnt be paying childcare so they would be better off..

I dont think it is a good enough reason to persecute the poor who are not on the dole by choice..

If they had a choice they wouldn't cut.

But you don't seem to be getting the basic maths behind all this.

We took in around half of what we spent last year. The markets are terrified of us defaulting and won't lend us cash without mega interest rates.

We have one plate of food to feed the family. There is no more food. We have to choose who gets fed and who does not.
Stop acting like the fairy ****ing godmother will pull pixie money out of her ass and pay for all your hearts desires, because its just not going to happen.

Bell Butter

christmas2012 wrote: »

I would sue the state on the principle of it,i have been made homeless due to that dole cut,ive been ****ed out on the street because some high paid earner has decided to cut my dole ,yeah i would take issue...

I could say the same about the government raising taxes.

christmas2012 wrote: »

I dont think it is a good enough reason to persecute the poor who are not on the dole by choice..

What about the working poor that are worse off than people on the dole after getting persecuted with the USC and everything else?

yore

christmas2012 wrote: »

Im not saying they should starve or struggle but if they borrowed up to the gills they should be more responsible for their actions,however if a situation is out of your control and the state cut your dole there is nothing you can do about it you dont have choice,while those who borrowed did have choice..

By your logic, everyone on the dole should starve for not studying harder in school and getting better qualifications. Because it's not that there are zero jobs, the jobs are few and difficult to get. Ergo, by your logic, the ones on the dole should suck it up because they made the wrong choices in life :rolleyes:

OldNotWIse

CruelCoin wrote: »

I'm an employer.

We are still fairly flexible in holidays and hours.

provided that staff do 40 hours and the odd extra as we need it, then i really don't mind what times or days they do it.

Good to hear!

hondasam

CruelCoin wrote: »

I'm an employer.

We are still fairly flexible in holidays and hours.

provided that staff do 40 hours and the odd extra as we need it, then i really don't mind what times or days they do it.

How do you run a business if all your staff take time off to pick kids up from school? This would not happen in most jobs.

MaxGenius

CruelCoin wrote: »

I'm an employer.

We are still fairly flexible in holidays and hours.

provided that staff do 40 hours and the odd extra as we need it, then i really don't mind what times or days they do it.

That's brilliant. I believe employers offering flexible time for employees get it back when they need it. If staff are treated right, they will return the favour.

smash

christmas2012 wrote: »

Im not saying they should starve or struggle but if they borrowed up to the gills they should be more responsible for their actions,however if a situation is out of your control and the state cut your dole there is nothing you can do about it you dont have choice,while those who borrowed did have choice..

Nobody can possibly be this blinkered... I'm out of this thread before I get banned again for personal abuse.

yosemite_sam

hondasam is correct, those who tried to do their best through employing people have been shafted by the system

yosemite_sam

You have tax generators and tax takers, the system has not got enough people making products and services for the country to sustain the tax takers

CruelCoin

hondasam wrote: »

How do you run a business if all your staff take time off to pick kids up from school? This would not happen in most jobs.

Not all of them have kids for one.

Basically we run an hour bank.
Take 2 hours out, put two hours back in.
They get flexibility, we get 40 hours.

Still, we make it work. Sales growing each year for the last 4 years.

This works really well during winter when business is quiet.

They work 32 hours in winter get paid for 40, 8 hours into bank
They work 48 hours in spring get paid for 40, 8 hours out of bank

On average we get the 40 hours a week throughout the year, and they have a stable income.
Net effect here is no-one gets sacked in winter, and our overtime bill in spring is reduced.
Win-Win

CruelCoin

christmas2012 wrote: »

no its not a joke if joan burton cut your dole and you can barely afford to keep your head above water..its hardly a joke if that cut to your dole was the ONE REASON you became homeless,and evicted as the landlord would not put the price of rent down..

The landlord has his own bills to pay. Its not his fault he didn't put the rent down. Strictly business. Rent market is still relatively healthy, and you can't pay, someone else can.

puffishoes

CruelCoin wrote: »

The landlord has his own bills to pay. Its not his fault he didn't put the rent down. Strictly business. Rent market is still relatively healthy, and you can't pay, someone else can.

if you mean there's "to let" signs and empty places all over the shop as healthy then yes, it's "healthy"

tempura

CruelCoin wrote: »

Not all of them have kids for one.

Basically we run an hour bank.
Take 2 hours out, put two hours back in.
They get flexibility, we get 40 hours.

Still, we make it work. Sales growing each year for the last 4 years.

This works really well during winter when business is quiet.

They work 32 hours in winter get paid for 40, 8 hours into bank
They work 48 hours in spring get paid for 40, 8 hours out of bank

On average we get the 40 hours a week throughout the year, and they have a stable income.
Net effect here is no-one gets sacked in winter, and our overtime bill in spring is reduced.
Win-Win

That sounds excellent, if only more Irish Employers would adopt this attitude towards employees. I worked for years in London for a company with a similar scheme and it worked brilliantly. Never availed of it myself as i didn't have children at the time but some of my fellow workers loved it as they were able to do school runs, doc appointment, kids plays etc. The company worked really well and the employees felt appreciated as their needs were met and in return they had the incentive to work well for the benefit of the company.

In my experience some Irish employers have a very draconian attitude towards working parents. There is absolutely no room for negotiation when you have children. The employer could be missing out on an excellent employee because of this.

Medusa22

I really wonder what people spend their money on. I survive on 188 euro a week because I have CF and I get disability benefit. Money is very tight but I survive and I have no idea how people earning over 30,000 can't live on it. I have rent, food, bills and a car to pay for on 9,000 disability benefit a year. I also go to college full time and am often too ill to use the bus so I have to pay for transport and lunches etc. I have to budget religiously in order to have enough money and people still think I'm 'privileged' when they hear I have a travel pass. :rolleyes:

By the way, I really don't see how I am better off than the OP, who earns 36,000 a year. Combined with your wife's wages you must be earning over 60,000 a year (obviously less with taxes). I know that this is divided between four people but that equates to 15,000 per year per person (I doubt your 2 children need 30,000 a year). As I said, 9,000 a year is what I receive for rent, bills, all expenses, everything. I know the OP must have an expensive mortgage but aside from that, I really don't understand how you think you are worse off than me.

Pandora2

ESRI have just withdrawn the report as they are concerned the public may be misled...RTE6.01 Now!!

Daisy M

Medusa22 wrote: »

I really wonder what people spend their money on. I survive on 188 euro a week because I have CF and I get disability benefit. Money is very tight but I survive and I have no idea how people earning over 30,000 can't live on it. I have rent, food, bills and a car to pay for on 9,000 disability benefit a year. I have to budget religiously in order to have enough money and people still think I'm 'privileged' when they hear I have a travel pass. :rolleyes:

I think I could survive on that very well if it was just me. There are 5 in our house hold and there is no way we have 188euro a week each to survive on. I think when they talk about 30000euro its a families incom out of which childcare and all the childrens needs have to be met.

As for been privledged for having a travel pass these people have obviously never used public transport let alone had a long term illness!

horgan_p

I can't understand why larger companies don't have an onsite creche.
Surely it'd help everyone. Subsidize the childcare , wild horses wouldn't be able to get people to change job then.

RaRaRasputin

I really don't get you people sometimes...

Ireland has the highest birth rate in Europe and so many here complain about the lack of subsidised child care. Why don't you just think before popping all these creatures into the world?
I have never come across such a self-entitled bunch such as Irish parents (with exceptions of course). Costs are being cut in all sectors but it seems that once it comes to childcare the whole country turns into apocalyptic chaos.

Phill Ewinn

RaRaRasputin wrote: »

I really don't get you people sometimes...

Ireland has the highest birth rate in Europe and so many here complain about the lack of subsidised child care. Why don't you just think before popping all these creatures into the world?
I have never come across such a self-entitled bunch such as Irish parents (with exceptions of course). Costs are being cut in all sectors but it seems that once it comes to childcare the whole country turns into apocalyptic chaos.

I couldn't afford the holiday home either. Anyways these sprogs will be working to pay your pension. They'll probably piss in your soup when you get to the nursing home aswel

smash

RaRaRasputin wrote: »

Ireland has the highest birth rate in Europe

Source?

RaRaRasputin wrote: »

and so many here complain about the lack of subsidised child care.

Probably one of the most expensive countries in Europe for childcare.

RaRaRasputin wrote: »

Why don't you just think before popping all these creatures into the world?

People do, and they budget for it.

RaRaRasputin wrote: »

I have never come across such a self-entitled bunch such as Irish parents (with exceptions of course). Costs are being cut in all sectors but it seems that once it comes to childcare the whole country turns into apocalyptic chaos.

They are the future of the country you know.