ERSI: Cost of working 'too high'

Bannasidhe

Zamboni wrote: »

Where is the indication that this paper was based on eight year old data?

I heard it on the radio but as I had the radio on in another room from 10:30 - 3:30 as background noise I can't recall which RTE Radio One programme stated it was based on 2004/5 data.
I did ask if anyone could confirm this.

Zamboni

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I heard it on the radio but as I had the radio on in another room from 10:30 - 3:30 as background noise I can't recall which RTE programme stated it was based on 2004/5 data.
I did ask if anyone could confirm this.

I wasn't challenging you on it, merely trying to get the facts myself before making up my own mind on the credibility of the paper which will make for some nice boring bed time reading now

Pandora2

Caught this on the news and I am sure the ESRI Rep said that the author of the paper is no longer with the ESRI and that the paper had been published prior to any of the existing ESRI personnel looking at it!! As a result of the media furore they had a quick shifty and have problems with the methodology.

Someone should be fired over this!

Bannasidhe

Zamboni wrote: »

I wasn't challenging you on it, merely trying to get the facts myself before making up my own mind on the credibility of the paper which will make for some nice boring bed time reading now

TBH - when I heard the dates on the radio I did think well, that's a bit out of date and moved on to other things. But I would like it confirmed by a source other then my ears/RTE that those are the dates...that's just me being OCDie.

hondasam

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I heard it on the radio but as I had the radio on in another room from 10:30 - 3:30 as background noise I can't recall which RTE Radio One programme stated it was based on 2004/5 data.
I did ask if anyone could confirm this.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ersi%20paper&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CAwQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thejournal.ie%2Fesri-report-which-said-many-would-be-better-off-on-dole-withdrawn-484632-Jun2012%2F&ei=pK7XT_riLYez0QW2-czSCQ&usg=AFQjCNFOW0DpAdsgEmy0zKZYuAdYn3qWew

http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/WP436/WP436.pdf

BattleCorp

Pandora2 wrote: »

Caught this on the news and I am sure the ESRI Rep said that the author of the paper is no longer with the ESRI and that the paper had been published prior to any of the existing ESRI personnel looking at it!! As a result of the media furore they had a quick shifty and have problems with the methodology.

Someone should be fired over this!

Do you really believe that statement above?

It's a face saving exercise by the Government. The ESRI told the truth and that doesn't suit the Government. Their spin department is now in full swing trying to rubbish the report. It's a damage limitation exercise.

The Government would be rightly fukced if people started to pack in their jobs on the back of this report (and some people would have packed in their jobs once they did a few sums).

Zamboni

Pandora2 wrote: »

Caught this on the news and I am sure the ESRI Rep said that the author of the paper is no longer with the ESRI and that the paper had been published prior to any of the existing ESRI personnel looking at it!! As a result of the media furore they had a quick shifty and have problems with the methodology.

Someone should be fired over this!

Or they had problems with methodology because they have been instructed that they have problems with methodology by their paymasters.
The paper has been sitting publicly on the ESRI website since May 22nd and nobody bats an eyelid.
I doubt Charlie Weston deserves credit for unearthing a secret terrible paper.

Pandora2

I didn't say I believed it, I just recounted what they said!! In truth, I would be of the mind that they were told to pull it......

What value a paper based on data from 04/05 would have, given the economic shift in the interim, I really don't know...it's just possible it slipped through, I'll await further info...Vincent should work himself into an absolute froth about this tonight!!

filmbuffboy

Pandora2 wrote: »

Vincent should work himself into an absolute froth about this tonight!!

Im looking forward to watching it haha!

BattleCorp

filmbuffboy wrote: »

Im looking forward to watching it haha!

Me too.:D:D:D

EchoO

BattleCorp wrote: »

Do you really believe that statement above?

It's a face saving exercise by the Government. The ESRI told the truth and that doesn't suit the Government. Their spin department is now in full swing trying to rubbish the report. It's a damage limitation exercise.

The Government would be rightly fukced if people started to pack in their jobs on the back of this report (and some people would have packed in their jobs once they did a few sums).

I'm inclined to believe it because the results of report are totally at odds with another one the ERSI issued just last October.

People 'not better off' on welfare


New research shows that unemployed people do not earn more from being on social welfare than by taking a job.
The study from the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) finds that as many as 8 out of 10 unemployed people would increase their income by at least 50 per cent if they were to find employment.
Two-thirds of unemployed people would more than double their income if they were to obtain a job, the research finds.
The study shows that only about 3 per cent of the unemployed would have a lower income if working than in signing on.
The analysis, which was published today, is based on the ESRI’s tax-benefit model, which uses a nationally representative sample of real people rather than selected examples. The model simulates the welfare entitlements and tax liabilities of each household in the CSO’s Survey on Income and Living Conditions.
The research also considered the impact of rent and mortgage supplements from the State on income levels but said that just 13 per cent of individuals on jobseekers assistance or benefit get these payments.
Study findings were released ahead of the ESRI's 14th "Budget Perspectives" Conference, which takes place in Dublin this morning.
The latest figures show the unemployment rate fell in September to 14.3 per cent, the first montly decline since the start of the year. However, the number of long-term claimants now stands at 183,399 – or 41.9 per cent of the total number of people on the Live Register.
Taoiseach Enda Kenny yesterday refused to be drawn on reports in The Irish Times earlier this week that the Government could cut €1 billion from next year's social welfare bill.
It is understood the Government is hoping to generate about half the potential welfare savings from a new clampdown on fraud but much of the remaining savings are expected to come from a substantial cut in the €500 million annual expenditure on rent supplements.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1013/breaking8.html

libra02

yore wrote: »

You could apply for the grant just like any normal student. Just because you were getting good money through the door for a few years does not mean that you deserve 188 a week into your hand whereas a traditional student, going from school to college and wanting to stay on for an MSc. has no such entitlement

From reading your posts you really have an awful attitude and opinion of anyone who is not working and had the unfortunate cases of being made redundant and franlky come across as quiet rude.

I would not wish a P45 on anyone but may one for you will show that the grass is not greener for people recently made unemlpyed as they do not get all the extra benefits etc.

First of all I bloody well worked hard and paid taxes since I was 16 and never ever got or asked for anything from this Gov. These few years you think I was scrouning for is not a few but 2 -first being my JB -which my taxes covered so it and the 2nd year was BETA which is open to alot of people.

This so called "good money" of €188 a week I am getting , is in reality my taxes coming back and benefitting me for once and it does not stretch far I am telling you when college books and supply's for any IT course start at €55 a pop.

The BETA I got I was tech working for it anyway as college courses are not a doddle for postgrads especially. Not like I be kicking back in the student bar.

Postgrads cannot apply for grants as the majority of assistance has been discontinued. Reg fees will be covered as some colleges offer reduced Masters Fee for contining students who get the reg fees covered.

The point I way making is the Gov are always on saying people need to retrain and upskill & convert to IT courses and when people who want to do it and are intersted and dedicated to do so there is not one bit of help.
They are paying people €188 a week anyway so why not have them in college doing something they want and will in the end be employed and starting paying taxes again.

After all the end results is getting people back to work? Then again who would you have to complain about then

Traditional students have more of an opportunity to them as there are full grants available to them. Why should they be entitled to a Masters from the Gov and given priority?

paddy147

I bet you Enda Kenny was straight on the phone to the ERSI and made them pull that research study off the RTE News this evening.

Egg and Face springs to mind here....yet again.

yore

libra02 wrote: »

From reading your posts you really have an awful attitude and opinion of anyone who is not working and had the unfortunate cases of being made redundant and franlky come across as quiet rude.

I would not wish a P45 on anyone but may one for you will show that the grass is not greener for people recently made unemlpyed as they do not get all the extra benefits etc.

First of all I bloody well worked hard and paid taxes since I was 16 and never ever got or asked for anything from this Gov. These few years you think I was scrouning for is not a few but 2 -first being my JB -which my taxes covered so it and the 2nd year was BETA which is open to alot of people.

This so called "good money" of €188 a week I am getting , is in reality my taxes coming back and benefitting me for once and it does not stretch far I am telling you when college books and supply's for any IT course start at €55 a pop.

The BETA I got I was tech working for it anyway as college courses are not a doddle for postgrads especially. Not like I be kicking back in the student bar.

Postgrads cannot apply for grants as the majority of assistance has been discontinued. Reg fees will be covered as some colleges offer reduced Masters Fee for contining students who get the reg fees covered.

The point I way making is the Gov are always on saying people need to retrain and upskill & convert to IT courses and when people who want to do it and are intersted and dedicated to do so there is not one bit of help.
They are paying people €188 a week anyway so why not have them in college doing something they want and will in the end be employed and starting paying taxes again.

After all the end results is getting people back to work? Then again who would you have to complain about then

Traditional students have more of an opportunity to them as there are full grants available to them. Why should they be entitled to a Masters from the Gov and given priority?

You seem to misunderstand me on a number of levels. 1. I never said that 188 is good money. However it would have been good money to me when I started college (over 10 years ago). I was on the full maximum grant which was the grand total of about 1,500 pound. I can't be certain what the dole was then, but I would reckon it was a hell of a lot more

I was not aware that local authority grants have been discontinued; you seem to suggest that they have. If they have not, then you are as entitled to one of them under exactly the same conditions as a 22/23 yr old who has just finished your undergrad. In fact, you have preferable conditions as the 22/23 year old is probably assessed on their parents income, even if they don't speak with their parents anymore or want to ask them for money. Your personal living expenses should be no more than a 22yr olds expenses unless you are far older and have extra medical bills. Even then, you should get a medical card (which younger students will not be entitled to in their own right). If you need extra money for cars and other luxuries that you have picked up along the way, well I'm sorry, but just because you had one, does not mean you are entitled to keep it, but the 22 year old can do without it.

Upskilling has benefits to society of course. But you might get 2 or 3 normal student grants for the price of one BTEA student! Of course, the BTEA student would be getting the same on the dole, but they could also be working a low paid job instead of getting the BTEA. The traditional student doesn't have that cushion to enter or stay in education.

And please tell me what grants mature (or non-traditional) students are excluded from? Because you say that traditional students have more opportunity for them.
Granted, you paid tax, but the hope is that the 22 year old starting their postgrad will also pay tax. And possibly at a higher rate than you did (assuming on average that those with higher degrees get paid more) and will do so for longer than you will (as they will come out the other end of that postgrad younger than you will for yours!)

Ray Palmer

EchoO wrote: »

I'm inclined to believe it because the results of report are totally at odds with another one the ERSI issued just last October.

Both reports are correct. It just depends what your situation is and which part of the report you highlight.

Single mother, renting, medical card would be better off on the dole in a lot of cases. The point is not everybody on the dole is like that. Not everybody on the dole has been there for years.

I worked on their IT systems and it is not an equal system. People who never paid any taxes get enough to live a decent life style. Others who paid masses of tax are entitled to nothing.It needs to be overhauled but it is pretty tough thing to do. To be fair if the government were forced to do it they would be grateful as they can't do it alone. There would have public support more now too.

Strangely they hired some new IT staff recently. Could they be overhauling or preparing systems for change?

christmas2012

cut the dole cut the dole cut the dole for those who are not on the dole they couldnt possibly understand the trauma of having to live merely hand to mouth,not being able to afford the basics,the terror of getting sick,not being able to afford dental care and watching your teeth rot out of your mouth or getting pulled one by one..then for some eejit to come along HEY GUYS LUIKE OI HAVE A SUGGESTION LETS CUT THE DAUL ...Id love to see them try to live on it,they might learn a thing or two about saving...ffs

steddyeddy

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And I find it laughable that you think the state doesn't provide enough cash to those who are unemployed, in spite of mountains of evidence to the contrary. Ropey claims based on ropey research by organisations with a particular agenda aside, my own personal experience tells me that certain people prioritise their own 'needs' ahead of their children, regardless of race, class or religion. But the wealthier ones have enough left over to look after secondary concerns like their children - the poorer ones don't.

Get off your PC high-horse and look at the world as it is, not as you would like it to be.

Right first of all ropey claims is wrong. THe capuchin day centre gives out free meals to 1300 to 1400 a day. Where before the figure was 300 people a day. I came from working class area where people did struggle. I can tell you people dont put drugs drink or the rest in front of their childrens needs. Most parents would rather they go hungry rather than their kids. Children are not secondary concerns.

I dont think 1 in 5 people are letting their kids go hungry so they can spend it on something else.

steddyeddy

christmas2012 wrote: »

cut the dole cut the dole cut the dole for those who are not on the dole they couldnt possibly understand the trauma of having to live merely hand to mouth,not being able to afford the basics,the terror of getting sick,not being able to afford dental care and watching your teeth rot out of your mouth or getting pulled one by one..then for some eejit to come along HEY GUYS LUIKE OI HAVE A SUGGESTION LETS CUT THE DAUL ...Id love to see them try to live on it,they might learn a thing or two about saving...ffs

Most people dont have a clue about poverty.

BattleCorp

christmas2012 wrote: »

cut the dole cut the dole cut the dole for those who are not on the dole they couldnt possibly understand the trauma of having to live merely hand to mouth,not being able to afford the basics,the terror of getting sick,not being able to afford dental care and watching your teeth rot out of your mouth or getting pulled one by one..then for some eejit to come along HEY GUYS LUIKE OI HAVE A SUGGESTION LETS CUT THE DAUL ...Id love to see them try to live on it,they might learn a thing or two about saving...ffs

Your rant is a bit hard to follow, sorry.

If somebody is on the dole they will probably have a medical card so your argument about worrying about getting sick or not being able to get dental care is a bit of a red herring.

Yes, a hell of a lot of people on the dole do struggle, but so do people who work. I've to pay a mortgage which takes up a huge amount of my wage. I am not entitled to rent allowance or any other state aid. I don't have a medical card either so if I get sick, I try and ride it out. I don't have the luxury of €60 to go see my doctor, not to mention the cost of the medicine that he would prescribe.

I have lived on the dole, and to be honest, I didn't like it. That said, I am not much better off working either.

Monty Burnz

christmas2012 wrote: »

cut the dole cut the dole cut the dole for those who are not on the dole they couldnt possibly understand the trauma of having to live merely hand to mouth,not being able to afford the basics,the terror of getting sick,not being able to afford dental care and watching your teeth rot out of your mouth or getting pulled one by one..then for some eejit to come along HEY GUYS LUIKE OI HAVE A SUGGESTION LETS CUT THE DAUL ...Id love to see them try to live on it,they might learn a thing or two about saving...ffs

Is the medical card gone?

breadmonster

This economy is rigged, feckin slaves the lot of us.
Better off owning nothing so you cant be taxed.
The Property market is rigged with a fake floor in the market.
Dont even think of having kids unless you've either got no job or are one of the protected classes (Im convinced were breeding a generation of no hopers and snobs)
Vested interests and there cartels keeping prices high bleeding every cent out of people.
Dont even think of buying a car cause they'll change the rules to f you in the ass when enough people are suckered in.
At least in cuba they got a decent health system time to make the switch.:pac:

BattleCorp

One area that the dole is better than work is that you get more money from the dole depending on how many children you have. The more children you have, the more money you get.

Now I'm not argueing that these extra children don't need to be fed or anything like that.

I'm just saying that if you are in employment, you don't get more wages off your boss the more children you have.



I definately believe that the ESRI report is fairly accurate.

laugh

Two things:

While a large proportion of the people currently unemployed; were employed during the "good times", the same positions or sectors may no longer have the same pay available. Wages were inflated at the time.

If the dole / rent relief were reduced; rents would have to come down, landlords would fail to meet mortgage payments (anecdotally landlords are already adding to rental income to cover mortgages) and then the banks would be in an even greater world of shit. I believe these payments should be reduced but I can imagine lobbying against it for this reason.

yore

christmas2012 wrote: »

cut the dole cut the dole cut the dole for those who are not on the dole they couldnt possibly understand the trauma of having to live merely hand to mouth,not being able to afford the basics,the terror of getting sick,not being able to afford dental care and watching your teeth rot out of your mouth or getting pulled one by one..then for some eejit to come along HEY GUYS LUIKE OI HAVE A SUGGESTION LETS CUT THE DAUL ...Id love to see them try to live on it,they might learn a thing or two about saving...ffs

Boo hoo. Poor you

prinz

steddyeddy wrote: »

I can tell you people dont put drugs drink or the rest in front of their childrens needs..

In fairness now that's a load of balls, some people obviously do.

More and more children are being taken into care due to families’ problems with drugs and alcohol addiction, according to the Frances Fitzgerald, the children’s minister. There are now 6,160 children in care, up from 5,727 during 2011, and a 13% increase since 2006.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/more-children-in-care-over-parents-alcohol-abuse-187675.html

In relation to parental drug abuse leading to a child being taken into care, Ms Gibbons said it was their experience the drug addict parent was often only able to focus on their next fix and not their child’s welfare.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/5-hike-in-babies-born-to-addicts-taken-into-care-110027.html

yore

steddyeddy wrote: »

Most people dont have a clue about poverty.

Including those who class 188 a week as poverty!

Smidge

BattleCorp wrote: »

Your rant is a bit hard to follow, sorry.

If somebody is on the dole they will probably have a medical card so your argument about worrying about getting sick or not being able to get dental care is a bit of a red herring.

Yes, a hell of a lot of people on the dole do struggle, but so do people who work. I've to pay a mortgage which takes up a huge amount of my wage. I am not entitled to rent allowance or any other state aid. I don't have a medical card either so if I get sick, I try and ride it out. I don't have the luxury of €60 to go see my doctor, not to mention the cost of the medicine that he would prescribe.

I have lived on the dole, and to be honest, I didn't like it. That said, I am not much better off working either.

Dental care is not covered.
You are entitled to one visit per year.
You are entitled to one emergency extraction per year but this is at the discretion of the dentist.
Nothing else

yore

breadmonster wrote: »

This economy is rigged, feckin slaves the lot of us.
Better off owning nothing so you cant be taxed.
The Property market is rigged with a fake floor in the market.
Dont even think of having kids unless you've either got no job or are one of the protected classes (Im convinced were breeding a generation of no hopers and snobs)
Vested interests and there cartels keeping prices high bleeding every cent out of people.
Dont even think of buying a car cause they'll change the rules to f you in the ass when enough people are suckered in.
At least in cuba they got a decent health system time to make the switch.:pac:

What's stopping you from moving to Cuba so :-) . We'll have a whip around for a one-way ticket for you and you can go live in your paradise!

Pandora2

Oh FFS is there no other way to discuss this without making sweeping generalisations about vast sections of the population?? Quite sad:(

I was made redundant after 8.5 years in a good job (fairly senior responsible position), the last in a long line of reasonably good jobs. I did not see it coming, 6 weeks later I was signing on....52 weeks @€;188, nothing else, no medical card, no ancillary benefits, 1 course paid for by Fas.....that's it, that's the sum total of what I received. Don't get me wrong, I'm not playing the poor mouth, my OH works, my eldest is working a min wage job and the youngest is in school and we are managing because we were not credit junkies. But it embarasses me to say that I'm unemployed because of the perception of it in society. It appears that me and my kind are the problem...I thought it was the politicians, regulatory bodies, irresponsible lending by the banks, I must have got confused:rolleyes:

Forest Demon

I read this report today. The report told the truth about the cost of working in Ireland. It exposed the inadequate support for people working. No childcare support, expensive transport costs, work clothing etc.

This is all true and when you add in other aspects such as medical costs, rent costs (if renting) and add in mortgage costs, household charges and other taxes that are getting heaped on PAYE workers it is a scandal.

Without grandparents and other family members minding children then this country would come to a halt.

None of this has anything to do with the dole being to high. Anyone who has had the misfortune to be on welfare will tell you that you will just about put food on the table and that is all.

Its the cost of living that is the scandal and its all the areas in the governments control that is causing these problems. Energy levy and costs, petrol, medical, insurance, taxes, rates on business, clothes, transport, childcare, food, dental care etc.

Businesses have the same issues as households and in turn have to pass them on to customers.

Incompetence, lack of support for tax payers and value for money in Irish institutions is the biggest scandal. It is not about left or right, socialism or capitalism. Its incompetence and waste that is the biggest scandal in Ireland.

We need a new party to take on the waste and give tax payers value for money.

Instead of turning on the people on welfare I hope that the focus would shift on to the government and the high cost of living. It did not say that welfare was too high. It said that the cost of going to work was too high for a lot of people. It exposed the lack of support available. The cost of living will not be driven down by cutting welfare.

Our spend on social services in this country is less then most other european country's. Can we say the same about; Doctors, teachers, politicians, lecturers, dentists, solicitors, pubic servants, RTE, ESB, Bord Gais etc wages??

This report was true and it is a scandal that it was taken down.

steddyeddy

yore wrote: »

Including those who class 188 a week as poverty!

Who did? The people I mentioned who attend the capuchin day centre for free meals come from all sorts of backgrounds. But yes there are also people earning just 188 who are in poverty due to various circumstances.

breadmonster

yore wrote: »

What's stopping you from moving to Cuba so :-) . We'll have a whip around for a one-way ticket for you and you can go live in your paradise!

ok the last line i was being sarcastic but feel free to have a whip around. ill open a paypal account for it :pac:
The rest is true this economy is rigged

zenseo

i didnt have the company car id be better off stayin at home because i drive 450 kn per week to and from work and about that running around for work and myself so thats about €120 a week on fuel.

starbelgrade

The ERSI are a bunch of overpaid, middle class academics who use the taxpayers money to tell the taxpayer stuff he already knows.

When they publish a report on how much value for money we actually get from the ERSI, then I might read it.

Otherwise they can stick their reports up their fucking holes.

Greentopia

Pandora2 wrote: »

Oh FFS is there no other way to discuss this without making sweeping generalisations about vast sections of the population?? Quite sad:(

That's because it's far easier for some to make snap judgements on people who are claiming welfare than it is to seek to understand why they ended up in poverty or unemployed in the first place. To quote Bertrand Russell-"some people would rather die than think; in fact most do" or show some human empathy, and it creates a 'them' and 'us' situation which suits Govts. perfectly of course e.g. employed versus unemployed, public versus private sector workers. If we're too busy fighting each other we don't have much time or energy to question bad governance.

Pandora2 wrote: »

But it embarasses me to say that I'm unemployed because of the perception of it in society. It appears that me and my kind are the problem...I thought it was the politicians, regulatory bodies, irresponsible lending by the banks, I must have got confused:rolleyes:

Don't be embarrassed, it sounds like you've done nothing wrong. I wouldn't try to make anyone feel embarrassed or ashamed about getting social welfare. I don't know their situation or problems so how could I judge them? And you pay taxes for the very reason that in harder times like now you have that safety net to fall back on. You're entitled to get State help and ignore anyone who tries to make you feel bad about it. The blame lies squarely where you mentioned-politicians, regulatory bodies, bankers, not the unemployed.

steddyeddy

prinz wrote: »

In fairness now that's a load of balls, some people obviously do.




http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/more-children-in-care-over-parents-alcohol-abuse-187675.html




http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/5-hike-in-babies-born-to-addicts-taken-into-care-110027.html

Some of course but not anyway near 1 in 5 as was suggested.

Cookie_Monster

Pottler wrote: »

My PRSI bill combined with all the other employment costs has soared recently and despite being busy(actually very busy) I am cutting numbers radically and letting work pass by rather than deal with the headache and huge cost of more employees and all the red tape I will have to go through to employ them.

My attitude now is "do what can be done with the men we have rather than take on new work and have to hire more people". I'd rather buy a machine to get work done than hire someone as it's just too much of a hiding to nothing. That's a nuts situation for a country that is supposed to be trying hard to get people off the dole and into work. It's too hard, and too dear to hire new people - almost as though the state wants to make your life a misery if you employ someone.

Surprised no one has picked up on this. here's a guy admitting he's actually doing well and making money yet the state make is so difficult and expensive to hire people he just can't justify it and has to let work go by.
There's something very very wrong with that!

K-9

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Surprised no one has picked up on this. here's a guy admitting he's actually doing well and making money yet the state make is so difficult and expensive to hire people he just can't justify it and has to let work go by.
There's something very very wrong with that!

I don't understand how his PRSI bill has soared though, Employer PRSI hasn't increased AFAIK.

Pandora2

Greentopia wrote: »

That's because it's far easier for some to make snap judgements on people who are claiming welfare than it is to seek to understand why they ended up in poverty or unemployed in the first place. To quote Bertrand Russell-"some people would rather die than think; in fact most do" or show some human empathy, and it creates a 'them' and 'us' situation which suits Govts. perfectly of course e.g. employed versus unemployed, public versus private sector workers. If we're too busy fighting each other we don't have much time or energy to question bad governance.



Don't be embarrassed, it sounds like you've done nothing wrong. I wouldn't try to make anyone feel embarrassed or ashamed about getting social welfare. I don't know their situation or problems so how could I judge them? And you pay taxes for the very reason that in harder times like now you have that safety net to fall back on. You're entitled to get State help and ignore anyone who tries to make you feel bad about it. The blame lies squarely where you mentioned-politicians, regulatory bodies, bankers, not the unemployed.

I posted this back in April/May of last year

Having been on boards for approx 8 weeks now, I am sceptical as to whether it is part of our psyche to look after each other............now I am not for one minute saying boards is fully representative of society, it never could be however, there are more threads here with people turning on one another than I imagined. Overweight v. thin (the overweight are more of a drain on the HSE, surely not!), employed v. unemployed, private sector v. public, middle class v. lower classes, middle class v. wealthy, left v. right and so on........

Now, it is only my opinion but, are we not the product of this Country as well as the consumer, are our lives and the quality of them not the product that we elect our Governments to manage in terms of providing services?

Up until 8 weeks ago I was in a well paid job thinking that my future was fairly safe, not so. Then, being in the public service, I was used to attracting comments of how cushy I had it (even the ex husband tried that on one occasion!! He's ok now though). And when speaking to those employed within the private sector (I have worked in both areas in my time), I learned very quickly to keep my job to myself, now in the short matter of 2 months I must ready myself for the ire of those who have been lucky enough to hold on to their jobs thus far!! God forbid I should feel down and eat a packet of choccie biscs to cheer myself up....getting very close to being Public Enemy No. 1!!

I guess what I am saying is united we stand and divided we fall.....perhaps we should stop taking out our fears and frustrations on other citizens of our homeland and concentrate our efforts on demanding results from those we employ to manage Ireland Inc...if everyone on boards put aside their prejudices regarding weight, employment status, class and wealth and put their not inconsiderable talents and intelligence into taking on the Government on their results and progress, it would be a very powerful lobby...open to correction here folks

It would appear we are of a mind!!

charlemont

christmas2012 wrote: »

no its not a joke if joan burton cut your dole and you can barely afford to keep your head above water..its hardly a joke if that cut to your dole was the ONE REASON you became homeless,and evicted as the landlord would not put the price of rent down..

Well at least if the German's do force our government to cut the dole they will also need to cut the over bloated administration here, The quango's and public service, To stop the massive waste of money. Without these people in employment prices will have to drop as our ivory tower landlords, service providers and grocery sellers won't have their cream anymore.

Monty Burnz

starbelgrade wrote: »

The ERSI are a bunch of overpaid, middle class academics who use the taxpayers money to tell the taxpayer stuff he already knows.

Seeing as you are 'middle class' by definition the moment you go on to study in university, how do you suggest the ESRI deal with this obvious personnel problem? Perhaps they should hire their researchers from the inner city methadone clinics? :rolleyes:

OldNotWIse

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I couldn't afford the holiday home either. Anyways these sprogs will be working to pay your pension. They'll probably piss in your soup when you get to the nursing home aswel

But we are also working to pay pensions - this is not really a relevant point, more like a dig.

Monty Burnz

Interesting that Richard Tol is standing over the report - and also interesting that he resigned from the ESRI six months ago, already highlighting its susceptibility to political influence and interference. It seems his concerns have proved accurate.

ENERGY ECONOMIST Richard Tol, who has left the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) to take up the position of professor of economics with Sussex University, has criticised aspects of the public think-tank.

Prof Tol said the financial position of the institute affected the independence of the work it produced. He said people who worked there were discouraged from expressing personal opinions to journalists or on social media sites such as Twitter.

He said the institute’s independence was compromised by the fact it got so much of its funding from government. He said this could manifest itself in the way the research it conducts is put into the public domain.

He was critical of the standard of information technology available at the institute.

In one of his tweets he said it was not a coincidence he was one of five senior research professors who had left over the past number of years. The institute has about 40 research assistants and about 10 research professors, he told The Irish Times. “So five in the last five years is significant.”

I heard him saying this morning that he would be having the paper peer-reviewed for journal publication.

OldNotWIse

christmas2012 wrote: »

When did i ever say those that are working are entitled to starve?Its their own fault if the borrowed from boom to bust over the fake boom celtic tiger years..

No everybody who is working now borrowed during the boom. This is just a line that is trotted out over and over to somehow justify crucifying the ordinary worker.

Bell Butter wrote: »

Sick of hearing this rubbish. I didn't borrow heavily during the boom ok!?! And I pay a savage amount of tax. I didn't buy the over priced house, I bought before the orgy began.

Likewise. I didn't buy. I rented (at a time when rents were the same monthly amounts as mortgages and those who bought were looking down on me for paying "dead money" to a landlord)

seamus

I think what's perfectly clear from this thread is that no-one even bothered to look at the report, never mind read it. Instead it was just taken as an open door to go on a rant about, "Bloody Government" or "Bloody Dole Scroungers" and make wild accusations about top-level conspiracies & backpedalling.

Monty Burnz

seamus wrote: »

I think what's perfectly clear from this thread is that no-one even bothered to look at the report, never mind read it. Instead it was just taken as an open door to go on a rant about, "Bloody Government" or "Bloody Dole Scroungers" and make wild accusations about top-level conspiracies & backpedalling.

I looked at the report.

Nothingbetter2d

part of the problem with costs of work too high is down to poor planning by the government

putting most of the jobs in dublin created the long commutes that we now have.

they should have been spreading jobs around the country thus making shorter commutes for workers. petrol is just too damn expensive now.

starbelgrade

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Seeing as you are 'middle class' by definition the moment you go on to study in university, how do you suggest the ESRI deal with this obvious personnel problem? Perhaps they should hire their researchers from the inner city methadone clinics? :rolleyes:

I have no problem with the ERSI being made up of academics.

What I do have a problem with is the following:

- The ERSI are supposed to be an independent body. Their reports have & do form the basis of a lot of government discussion and policy. Yet they are mostly funded by the government. This, in my opinion, is not an independent body.

- The academia of Ireland are the highest paid in Europe. Most of the ERSI is made up of such people. They therefor have a vested interest in reporting on issues that are not related to the higher paid echelons of the public service - including themselves. The fact that they are so pre-occupied with writing reports on every section of society except their own lays testament to that.

In short, I don't think anything that they write can be taken as gospel as they are a non-independent review body of over-paid public servants who have a vested interest in protecting their own salaries.

Morlar

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I looked at the report.

So did I - it's on this page if anyone is interested:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0613/breaking21.html

The govt reaction to this is pathetic. I'd also agree with Tol on this part too :

Prof Tol’s departure from the ESRI several months ago was marked by claims the institute’s independence was affected by its financial dependence on Government funding.

He said this morning he was not informed by the ESRI that they were planning to remove the paper from the website.

He said he understood calls for an investigation into what has happened. “But knowing Ireland, I don’t think there will be a lot of useful conclusions from such an investigation”

Monty Burnz

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

part of the problem with costs of work too high is down to poor planning by the government

putting most of the jobs in dublin created the long commutes that we now have.

To be fair, the only jobs the government 'puts' somewhere are state employees. If Google turn up to open an office, they can't somehow send them down to Termonfeckin or something.