ERSI: Cost of working 'too high'

daltonmd

thebigbiffo wrote: »

To people out there bitching about people bitching about the cost of kids, i'll give a run through of my situation.

My wife and I decided to have kids in 2006 and had a boy. a year later we'd another girl. everythign was grand, earning good money etc. Que late 2008 and we were both hit by reductions, taxes etc. My mother in law passed away so there was no childminder and all of a sudden we were 1300 p/m worse off.

We could more than afford to have kids at the time but circumstances have changed, and not all of them due to 'the current economic climate'.

There is no provision by the gov to aid working parents when faced with similar dilemmas - but if you're on the dole, everything's taken into account. My wife has prayed for redundancy - it's a mental situation and one that there is no political will to face.

This awful situation is not uncommon, I feel really sorry for your situation and it was kind of my point earlier - you are eother entitled to everything or nothing. If you work and earn the average wage and fall on difficult times, there is no safety net to help you get back on your feet.

RaRaRasputin

Why is every word turned around here.
I never said that child benefit was unnecessary, I initially complained about the general outcry in this country once someone dares to criticise the feeling of over-entitlement that many parents nowadays display. It's just never enough it seems...well what a wonderful national trait.

irelandrover

daltonmd wrote: »

This awful situation is not uncommon, I feel really sorry for your situation and it was kind of my point earlier - you are eother entitled to everything or nothing. If you work and earn the average wage and fall on difficult times, there is no safety net to help you get back on your feet.

Wasn't it already pointed out that this was not true. As there was the option of FIS and a medical card if you earned below a certain point.

Can i ask what exactly those complaining of childcare costs want. How much would you be willing to pay for the care of your child. Where would the rest of the money come from to pay for this? If you think the government should pay for it then where do you take the money from?

Bannasidhe

irelandrover wrote: »

I specifically said the cost of uniforms and and books was not an issue preventing return to work. I mentioned nothing about collecting children from school. how much extra cost in the year does a school uniform cost for a working parent as opposed to a stay at home parent?

I agree it is difficult to arrange collection of children from school.

It is an issue - many Irish schools require children to have both a school jumper and tracksuit with the school logo on them. These are only available in certain shops and are way more expensive then the equivalent 'blank' jumpers/tracksuits which can be bought in Dunnes. Text books are ridiculously expensive and the Dept. of Education -and the publishers - are very fond of introducing 'new editions' every few years meaning the books can't be passed on to younger siblings. Those on SW/Low income can avail of allowances paid for by the State to offset these (imho) unnecessary costs. This is means tested.

A parents on an 'average' income gets no such allowance ergo it is an additional child related expensive borne by many working parents which unemployed parent's are helped with.

My solution - despense with liveried school uniforms and introduce a subsidised text book rental scheme in all schools - and do away with both the back to school clothing allowance and the text book purchase scheme. Make free education actually free - then there will be no need to give those parent's on SW extra allowances and the burden on working parent's will be alleviated somewhat.

As a matter of interest could any parent here give us a rough estimate of the current costs of uniforms/ text books per primary and secondary school pupils?

daltonmd

irelandrover wrote: »

Wasn't it already pointed out that this was not true. As there was the option of FIS and a medical card if you earned below a certain point.

Can i ask what exactly those complaining of childcare costs want. How much would you be willing to pay for the care of your child. Where would the rest of the money come from to pay for this? If you think the government should pay for it then where do you take the money from?

From the taxes we pay to go to work, to buy stuff which has other tax paid on it, to eat stuff and buy stuff in shops like, that also has tax paid on it, that have jobs for people to sell us the stuff so that they can pay tax, to buy a car that has tax on it, , to fill car with petrol, that has tax paid on it. To pay childcare in creches where there are jobs, where they pay tax. All we're asking for is a bit of help.

The notion from some here that working parents contribute nothing to society in 2010 is mind boggling and scary.

Maybe you should read my post again - If you are in WORK and suffer the death of your childminder, take paycuts and have to use private childcare then there is NO safety net.


Let me point out to you - that if you earn the average wage then you DO NOT qualify for FIS.

You DO NOT qualify for a medical card -

Hope that is clearer to you?

irelandrover

daltonmd wrote: »

This awful situation is not uncommon, I feel really sorry for your situation and it was kind of my point earlier - you are eother entitled to everything or nothing.

daltonmd wrote: »

Maybe you should read my post again - If you are in WORK and suffer the death of your childminder, take paycuts and have to use private childcare then there is NO safety net.


Let me point out to you - that if you earn the average wage then you DO NOT qualify for FIS.

You DO NOT qualify for a medical card -

Hope that is clearer to you?

You stated that you are either entitled to everything or nothing. That is not true.

daltonmd

irelandrover wrote: »

You stated that you are either entitled to everything or nothing. That is not true.

I said if you are working. Not if you wish to return to work.

christmas2012

I was just listening to the doe duffy show and its a ****ing disgrace,this ''employer'' said she was upset at the interviewees coming through her door,but she forgot to mention she wasnt exactly doing her bit either,she was being subsidised by a free scheme such as fas..

people who are spouting rubbish like they are getting too many benefits,answer me this how are they going to feed their kids?

Sappa

The report is a load of crap,it's not taking into account any savings people are implementing like car pooling,leaving the car at home,cycling to work.
Bringing packed lunches,not everyone eats out for there lunch.
The report is based on worse case scenarios,my diesel cost per week is under 35 euro,both my wife and I bring our own lunches to work and I have cut back on take away coffee.
This report does nothing to represent us but is aimed at one demographic.

Monty Burnz

christmas2012 wrote: »

people who are spouting rubbish like they are getting too many benefits,answer me this how are they going to feed their kids?

I'm thinking with their generous social welfare allowances that are intended to pay for food for their kids, and children's allowance too of course.

christmas2012

Try living on the dole and saying those on the dole have everything,think of the standard price of living and compare it to the dole..

Monty Burnz

christmas2012 wrote: »

Try living on the dole and saying those on the dole have everything,think of the standard price of living and compare it to the dole..

I did live on the dole. Keep making assumptions, you'll get one right eventually. I found I had plenty of money.

hondasam

christmas2012 wrote: »

Medical card doesnt cover everything,for example dentist appointments when getting your teeth done ,etc..

I am well aware of this but my point is just because someone is working does not mean they can afford dentist/doctor either.

christmas2012

well monty i certainly didnt have much money spare on the dole..

CruelCoin

christmas2012 wrote: »

I was just listening to the doe duffy show and its a ****ing disgrace,this ''employer'' said she was upset at the interviewees coming through her door,but she forgot to mention she wasnt exactly doing her bit either,she was being subsidised by a free scheme such as fas..

people who are spouting rubbish like they are getting too many benefits,answer me this how are they going to feed their kids?

And why should i have to feed their kids?

The market goes through crests and troughs, and you have to sit down and think hard about what you can offer the market at any point in time.

If you have a builder who is unwilling to look for any type of work bar building (which isn't coming back anytime soon) does that mean i have to feed his kids for the next 10 years?
A little bit of personal responsibility please. I went to college, i planned ahead, i chose a career path that had a healthy future ahead of it and that was adaptable. And now you suggest i pay for those who didn't?

I expect no-one to pay for me, and i don't ask for it. I pay into my own pension fund, as should all others. People have lived for far too long on the edge of affordability during good times and now act all surprised when it dips a bit.

irelandrover

christmas2012 wrote: »

well monty i certainly didnt have much money spare on the dole..

Why should you have spare money when on the Dole?

christmas2012

I was replying to another user who said he did have spare money on the dole,and i replied,''well monty i certainly didnt have any spare money on the dole''..

Monty Burnz

christmas2012 wrote: »

well monty i certainly didnt have much money spare on the dole..

What did you spend it all on?

Bannasidhe

CruelCoin wrote: »

And why should i have to feed their kids?

The market goes through crests and troughs, and you have to sit down and think hard about what you can offer the market at any point in time.

If you have a builder who is unwilling to look for any type of work bar building (which isn't coming back anytime soon) does that mean i have to feed his kids for the next 10 years?
A little bit of personal responsibility please. I went to college, i planned ahead, i chose a career path that had a healthy future ahead of it and that was adaptable. And now you suggest i pay for those who didn't?

I expect no-one to pay for me, and i don't ask for it. I pay into my own pension fund, as should all others. People have lived for far too long on the edge of affordability during good times and now act all surprised when it dips a bit.

How much exactly did your university education cost you personally?

As you are all for personal responsibility I assume you paid full fees - or was your entire education subsidised by the tax payers?
Of course even if you had paid full fees that wouldn't cover the cost of one lecturer - so even then the State would be subsidising you.

Since you planned your career so well - are you now willing to pay the State back in full for the investment in made in your education?

Red_Wake

Monty Burnz wrote: »

What did you spend it all on?

He probably pissed it away on drink and taytos.

senordingdong

irelandrover wrote: »

Wasn't it already pointed out that this was not true. As there was the option of FIS and a medical card if you earned below a certain point.

That 'certain point' is unattainably low.

If you earned the equivelant of the dole in a part time job you would not qualify for a medical card.

Kid Charlemagne

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How much exactly did your university education cost you personally?

As you are all for personal responsibility I assume you paid full fees - or was your entire education subsidised by the tax payers?
Of course even if you had paid full fees that wouldn't cover the cost of one lecturer - so even then the State would be subsidising you.

Since you planned your career so well - are you now willing to pay the State back in full for the investment in made in your education?

Well if he pays PAYE in ireland id imagine the cost of the education will have been paid back many times by the end of his career. You seem very defensive of people who want to sponge off the state Benefits should be cut to fund extra tax allowances for the working poor/badly paid.

christmas2012

Red_Wake wrote: »

He probably pissed it away on drink and taytos.

no i didnt piss it away on drink and taytos,i can barely afford to live in the week,if i was to go for a night out i would have to save my cents up for that,and that would be once in a blue moon..

later12

thebigbiffo wrote: »

The Indo have a breakdown today which looks this.

Total welfare net income for one dependent adult and 4 children: €40,516

Net income for same family, one adult working at €28,000 p/a includes family income supp, child benefit and rent supplement in Dublin: €36,472 (after the average 10k cost of work described in the ESRI report).

I think it's fairly clear that, depending on your circumstances, you'd be a complete mental case to go back to work. and if you had a trade, you'd be on the pigs back working nixers on the black market.

Now, this isn't taking into account childcare and does cost in family income supp and rent supp. Can someone explain what these supplements are and how you're entitled to them? can i have some please?

Considering the Indo made deductions for the cost of eating lunch and other work related costs, what deductions did the Indo make for living in your house for about 40 extra hours per week, providing your own energy and utility costs?

Bannasidhe

Kid Charlemagne wrote: »

Well if he pays PAYE in ireland id imagine the cost of the education will have been paid back many times by the end of his career. You seem very defensive of people who want to sponge off the state Benefits should be cut to fund extra tax allowances for the working poor/badly paid.

Sponge off the State eh? Well, nail your colours to the mast why don't you.

In your world is it a case that if someone is getting 188 euro a week SW they are sponging - regardless of how much tax/PRSI they may have paid- but someone getting a heavily subsidised university education is perfectly acceptable as they will, over the course of their working life, pay off the amount they were subsidised?

Explain how this works to me. Will he be paying additional income tax to repay the State's investment in his education or will he be paying the same as someone who earns the same but who never had the opportunity to avail of subsidised third level education?

My OH has a well paid job but never went to university - is there a rebate available for 'did not avail of subsidised 3rd level just worked an paid taxes since leaving secondary school' tax payers?

It there a 'I got a heavily subsidised 3rd level education which allows me to earn a good salary so I pay x% more tax' band?

Do I get a rebate for 'I went to university before free fees and had to pay the full whack'?

Has it occurred to you that I have little patience for people who spout nonsense about 'personal responsibility' and 'only have children if you can afford them' who fail to acknowledge that their education was funded by other people's taxes and their old age will equally be funded by other people's children's taxes.


This wonderful pension plan that is going to fund his old age - will it pay for everything he will require or will the State via other people's children's taxes have to provide hospitals, roads, electricity, water, etc etc.

later12

senordingdong wrote: »

That 'certain point' is unattainably low.

If you earned the equivelant of the dole in a part time job you would not qualify for a medical card.

It's been mentioned a few times in the thread - if you are long term unemployed, you keep the medical card for an absolute minimum of 3 years when you go back to full time work. This applies to everyone.

jonon9

Without having my head chewed off if people are having a hard time with fuel cost maybe they should consider dropping back to a smaller engine i.g I went from a 2.5 transit to a 1.9 and I'm saving way more money. Just a thought

Pandora2

:o:o

Bannasidhe

jonon9 wrote: »

Without having my head chewed off if people are having a hard time with fuel cost maybe they should consider dropping back to a smaller engine i.g I went from a 2.5 transit to a 1.9 and I'm saving way more money. Just a thought

Certainly an option for some people - unless they have to transport more then 2 children that is. Current legislation requires that children be restrained in either a child seat or a booster seat.

A child restraint is a device designed for use by a child weighing 36 kg [approx 5 stone 9 lbs] or less. The restraint is fitted directly to a suitable belt or is held in place by the action of a safety belt, which in turn restrains movement in the event of an accident or incident. An appropriate child restraint is one appropriate to the weight of the child. The weight range is indicated on the child restraint. Examples of appropriate restraint systems are baby car seats and booster cushions.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/roads_and_safety/seatbelts_when_motoring_in_ireland.html

Most cars will not take more then 2 child seats so parent's end up getting 7 seaters, which have larger engine sizes.

Bannasidhe

Pandora2 wrote: »

No, sorry but, you will only retain the Medical Card if you qualify for FIS or any of the relevant allowances. You will only qualify for these if your employer agrees to participate and you are earning below a certain amount.

In years gone by, if you had a valid medical card when taking up employment you were entitled to retain it until expiry (remember Martin Ferris TD & the Medical Card;)) You are now obliged to inform the HSE of any change in circumstances immediately.

I'm sure I heard someone say on RTE yesterday that the long-term unemployed who returned (I love that term 'returned'. It's so casual, like there are millions of jobs out there and people choose to 'return' to work :rolleyes:) could keep the medical health card for 3 years...

later12

Pandora2 wrote: »

No, sorry but, you will only retain the Medical Card if you qualify for FIS or any of the relevant allowances. You will only qualify for these if your employer agrees to participate and you are earning below a certain amount.

This is the first I have heard of that and no such conditionality is indicated on the HSE's website or on citiznesinformation as far as I have seen:

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/entitlements/Medical_Cards/Your_Guide_to_Medical_Cards.html

People who have been unemployed or in receipt of One Parent Family Payment for a minimum of 12 months will retain their Medical Card for a period of 3 years if they commence employment

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/starting_work_and_changing_job/training_and_looking_for_work/return_to_work.html

Medical card
If you are unemployed and you are returning to full-time or part-time work, you can keep your medical card for 3 years provided you have been getting one of the following allowances or benefits for 12 months or more:

Jobseeker's Benefit
Jobseeker's Allowance
One-Parent Family Payment
Illness Benefit
Disability Allowance
Blind Pension or
Have been on an employment incentive scheme or educational opportunity scheme

If you take up full-time employment you will retain your medical card for 3 years from the date you start work. If you take up part-time employment the three-year period starts from the date your income exceeds the relevant medical card guideline.

Also, what are you talking about in terms of the employer participating in FIS. The employer doesn't have any input or make any contribution to the FIS payment whatsoever. It's essentially none of his concern, and he cannot "disagree" to a claimant being allocated an FIS payment or not.

Pandora2

@ Bannaisdhe

Regarding the cost of School Uniform: 16 year old girl (it has a bearing, younger children's uniform's will always be cheaper obviously;))

2 Shirts (odd shaped collar so must be bought from school supplier @ €12) €24

School Jumper with crest €58

Tie €7

Skirt (they are changing the uniform this year to as kilt instead of a straight skirt, so despite last years skirt being perfect and herself going into 6th Year, I must buy a new one:mad:)€75

School Jacket with Crest €80 (In the press, never been worn, why do they insist on these, the kids will not wear them!!),

Track suit €80

Dubarry Shoes €100

Polo Shirt, with crest €18

Socks/gym shoes - Circa €40 (Penny's)

Stationery & School Bag (good quality, it's bloody heavy!!) € 75

A grand Total of.....................€543

Exams Years Past Papers €6 X 7 or more depending on the student.

Art Supplies €10 PA

Photocopying €10 PA

Retreat :rolleyes: €15

Journal €10

Registration €75 - Minimum Donation €50 (Bit of a contradiction here!!)

PE & IT supplies €20

School trips, now I'm not talking recreational, more like Macbeth (€25)Geography Field Trip (€40), Art, Botanic Gardens/Natural History Museum
(€30)

As for books well that depends on the subject, her Dad looks after this as he has a contact in a book suppliers and what he can't get there he tries for
2nd Hand, rarely did he root one that was required out!!

And this Year I have an exam fee LC €109 (exempt if you have Medical Card)

I won't even get into graduation & Debs....

Sorry I typed that out, where am I going to come up with all that by September!!

Monty Burnz

Pandora2 wrote: »

As for books well that depends on the subject, her Dad looks after this as he has a contact in a book suppliers and what he can't get there he tries for
2nd Hand, rarely did he root one that was required out!!

Right from junior infants through college, almost every single book I ever had was second (at least) hand, and my family wasn't struggling for money. We weren't struggling for money because we got things like books second hand.

Pandora2

After your card is issued

If your circumstances change, you must inform the HSE as you may no longer be eligible. For example, if your income or family circumstances change, you must inform the HSE Central Medical Card Office as soon as possible.

Extract from Comhairle Website...sorry can't seem to link it!!

If you can retain the card whatever...I agree this would be a major factor for any parent going back to work after a sojourn on welfare assistance/benefit and can only be a good thing in terms of encouraging people to do so!


As for FIS, sorry, you are quite right, no employer co-operation required, I was thinking of the now defunct Back to Work Allowance (BTW was my gateway back into the work force!!) which required the employer to agree, most did as it meant the Gov paid your PRSI for the 3 year duration.

Not in great form, I'm normally better with the research!!

Pandora2

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Right from junior infants through college, almost every single book I ever had was second (at least) hand, and my family wasn't struggling for money. We weren't struggling for money because we got things like books second hand.

Fair enough....I applaud your Mum and Dad (perhaps they might pass on some tips??) We are just to lazy to go looking:rolleyes:

No Comment on anything else??;)

PS Monty, I truly hope it keeps fine for you life is long and has a way of levelling the pitch when you least expect it;)

mariaalice

The problem with the medical card is that it is a gateway to other benefits such as back to school allowance and other benefits and that has to be tackled in fact its the number one item that needs to be sorted in the work/benefit debate.

There are a lot of hidden traps in the system for example the availability of the third level grant and the enhanced third level grant( which are means tested ) is a significant factor in some people not taking up work or remaining in part time work.

Bannasidhe

Pandora2 wrote: »

@ Bannaisdhe

Regarding the cost of School Uniform: 16 year old girl (it has a bearing, younger children's uniform's will always be cheaper obviously;))

2 Shirts (odd shaped collar so must be bought from school supplier @ €12) €24

School Jumper with crest €58

Tie €7

Skirt (they are changing the uniform this year to as kilt instead of a straight skirt, so despite last years skirt being perfect and herself going into 6th Year, I must buy a new one:mad:)€75

School Jacket with Crest €80 (In the press, never been worn, why do they insist on these, the kids will not wear them!!),

Track suit €80

Dubarry Shoes €100

Polo Shirt, with crest €18

Socks/gym shoes - Circa €40 (Penny's)

Stationery & School Bag (good quality, it's bloody heavy!!) € 75

A grand Total of.....................€543

Exams Years Past Papers €6 X 7 or more depending on the student.

Art Supplies €10 PA

Photocopying €10 PA

Retreat :rolleyes: €15

Journal €10

Registration €75 - Minimum Donation €50 (Bit of a contradiction here!!)

PE & IT supplies €20

School trips, now I'm not talking recreational, more like Macbeth (€25)Geography Field Trip (€40), Art, Botanic Gardens/Natural History Museum
(€30)

As for books well that depends on the subject, her Dad looks after this as he has a contact in a book suppliers and what he can't get there he tries for
2nd Hand, rarely did he root one that was required out!!

And this Year I have an exam fee LC €109 (exempt if you have Medical Card)

I won't even get into graduation & Debs....

Sorry I typed that out, where am I going to come up with all that by September!!

Thanks for that Pandora2 - WOW :eek:.

Immediately obvious is why do schools need livery/crests?

I am actually generally in favour of school uniforms having been exposed to the 'oh, I can't wear those - I must have .......(insert latest teenage fashion trend here) non-uniform schools.

My son attended High School in Australia for 2 years- their 'uniform' had only one item with a crest on it - a very nice fleece top which I now wear 10 years later - cost $15 aus bought directly from the school. Rest of his uniform could be bought anywhere - grey shirt/grey pants. Tie we got from the school - $5 aus.

Why on earth are they changing the uniform? I do remember my mother being driven to distraction many years ago when my sister's secondary school changed the uniform 3 times in 4 years...it's insane.

Past exam papers - universities put past exam papers on-line. Why is this facility not available for junior/leaving cert papers?

Why can't text books be made available as ebooks? The cost of kindles/e-readers etc are falling all the time, as the books would be digitised that would reduce production costs significantly. Surely a flat fee per downloaded text book (2-5 euro perhaps) would more then cover the costs? It would also be more environmentally friendly and stop the mad scramble to get all the books in time.

Looking at those figures just for uniform/shoes it will cost you 482 - I do wonder how people on SW are meant to afford all that on the 250 euro clothes and shoes allowance paid for the over 11 year olds....

daltonmd

later12 wrote: »

It's been mentioned a few times in the thread - if you are long term unemployed, you keep the medical card for an absolute minimum of 3 years when you go back to full time work. This applies to everyone.

In this instance the reference was to people working and struggling - not to those who are returning to work.

It is an all or nothing system because to avail of everything, you have to have nothing.

To get the medical card, FIS, Back to school, fuel etc- then you have to lose your job - to keep *some* of those you have to be longterm unemployed if you do get a job, if you work and earn the average wage you can't avail of any of these benefits.

How many people are being forced to give up work because it is simply not paying them to work.

If you work then you should have a decent standard of living - you should be able to run a car and buy a fkn sandwich in a shop every now and again. You should be able to go on holiday once a year - what is the point of working.

Pack a lunch, car pool - these are ok as a way of saving - but not as a matter of "can I afford to go to work today" .

Pandora2

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Thanks for that Pandora2 - WOW :eek:.

Immediately obvious is why do schools need livery/crests? They don't imho but insist on it.

I am actually generally in favour of school uniforms having been exposed to the 'oh, I can't wear those - I must have .......(insert latest teenage fashion trend here) non-uniform schools. Me too, you gotta buy clothes for them anyway and uniforms are generally hard wearing if you look after them.

My son attended High School in Australia for 2 years- their 'uniform' had only one item with a crest on it - a very nice fleece top which I now wear 10 years later - cost $15 aus bought directly from the school. Rest of his uniform could be bought anywhere - grey shirt/grey pants. Tie we got from the school - $5 aus. I'm jealous!

Why on earth are they changing the uniform? I do remember my mother being driven to distraction many years ago when my sister's secondary school changed the uniform 3 times in 4 years...it's insane. The mind boggles but this has happened to me twice with this child and 3 times with the eldest!!

Past exam papers - universities put past exam papers on-line. Why is this facility not available for junior/leaving cert papers? They are online, after a fashion but it is not comprehensive, and then you have to print them out, cheaper to buy them this way, also they are bound and more practical .......pages everywhere otherwise!!

Why can't text books be made available as ebooks? The cost of kindles/e-readers etc are falling all the time, as the books would be digitised that would reduce production costs significantly. Surely a flat fee per downloaded text book (2-5 euro perhaps) would more then cover the costs? It would also be more environmentally friendly and stop the mad scramble to get all the books in time. Agreed, but where's the profit in that??:rolleyes:

Looking at those figures just for uniform/shoes it will cost you 482 - I do wonder how people on SW are meant to afford all that on the 250 euro clothes and shoes allowance paid for the over 11 year olds....

Yeah, it would never cover it but is a great help...I got it once or twice in the early '90's and it made all the difference, and for that I am truly grateful

Monty Burnz

Pandora2 wrote: »

Fair enough....I applaud your Mum and Dad (perhaps they might pass on some tips??) We are just to lazy to go looking:rolleyes:

No Comment on anything else??;)

Sorry, that bit just caught my eye

Pandora2 wrote: »

PS Monty, I truly hope it keeps fine for you life is long and has a way of levelling the pitch when you least expect it;)

Well I've been on the dole and out of work on and off - but I've never been in debt either because I don't buy stuff I can't pay for and I don't buy stuff I don't need (e.g. I've never owned a car). It doesn't matter how bumpy the ride is if you put money aside in the good times to tide you over the bad.

Monty Burnz

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Looking at those figures just for uniform/shoes it will cost you 482 - I do wonder how people on SW are meant to afford all that on the 250 euro clothes and shoes allowance paid for the over 11 year olds....

Isn't children's allowance intended to pay for clothes and things?

hondasam

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=book%20rental%20scheme&source=web&cd=6&sqi=2&ved=0CGAQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rte.ie%2Fnews%2F2012%2F0528%2Fschool-book-rental-schemes-in-schools-proposed.html&ei=5CTaT8u0GcKwhAfz07TWAw&usg=AFQjCNFs1oBhQBtkaaqAzHzv2DMuGmPIUw

I'm sure all parents would be happy to pay a fee for the year for rental. I know a few school who do this and it makes sense. Price of books is ridiculous.

Pandora2

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Sorry, that bit just caught my eye

Well I've been on the dole and out of work on and off - but I've never been in debt either because I don't buy stuff I can't pay for and I don't buy stuff I don't need (e.g. I've never owned a car). It doesn't matter how bumpy the ride is if you put money aside in the good times to tide you over the bad.

I don't do credit and that is why I'm managing, I also have very simple needs and very few wants (no car here either;)) but, sometimes despite your best efforts it all goes pear shaped and there is nothing you can do about it. I know, I pulled myself out of the welfare trap in 1997 and it was hairy at times between childminding and other costs that occurred but, I did it!! Took me a couple of years to feel safe but I got there, it was more important to teach my children a work ethic than minimise my worries...it paid off so far;) But the sleepless nights I had over unreliable and expensive childcare, Doctor's visits etc are still a vivid memory!

Pandora2

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Isn't children's allowance intended to pay for clothes and things?

Yes, and haircuts, calpol, nit lotion:rolleyes:(on one occasion 4 purchases in 1month!!) birthdays, Christmas and everything under the sun......Barbers call the first Tuesday of the month, Mickey Money Day!! I used to also take my kids to the pictures that week...early Sat morning, an old Disney Movie (never a new release!) popcorn & cans of mineral hidden in the handbag...It was our social life unemployed or not!!

IrishAm

hondasam wrote: »

Price of books is ridiculous.

My old secondary school principal owned the local bookshop. Our schoolbooks could only be sourced there. With nine hundred students, that's a nice chunk of change. Each subjects syllabus would change every three years.

It was a great scam.

later12

daltonmd wrote: »

In this instance the reference was to people working and struggling - not to those who are returning to work.

Well the thread is about the notion of a welfare trap and whether one exists in a substantial way. I'm just pointing out that losing a medical card is not a concern for the long term unemployed; they don't lose it by taking up employment.

To get the medical card, FIS, Back to school, fuel etc- then you have to lose your job

again - this is not true. The FIS payment is there for low income earners and is designed to ensure they are not better off on welfare; I would say with a good deal of success too. You do not have to be coming off a Social Welfare payment to avail of FIS, you just need to be on a relatively low enough income which would otherwise be unattractive relative to social welfare benefits. The same applies to Back to School and other payments.

Bannasidhe

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Isn't children's allowance intended to pay for clothes and things?

Every child in the State gets child benefit (and some not in the State but that is a different topic) - rich or poor. The poor have to use it for buy essentials, the struggling can use it to ease the burden a bit, the well heeled can do what ever they feel like with it and the rich don't even notice it.

Welcome to Austerity Ireland.

Rates are here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/social_welfare_payments_to_families_and_children/child_benefit.html#l62fd2.

I child = 140 a month or 35 euro a week.
SW for I child = 29.80 p.w. (http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/social_welfare_payments_to_families_and_children/one_parent_family_payment.html#l62fd2)

Grand total = 64.80 per week to pay for everything for 1 child.

Now lets look at those return to school figure Pandora2 was good enough to supply - 482 euro for uniform/shoes alone.

Minus Back to school clothing allowance of 250 leaves 232 euro to be found out of a weekly generous State allocation of 64. 80 per child max. So if they can put away a tenner a week just to pay for the school uniform it will take over 23 weeks to save enough money.

I am the first to admit that when I was 'entitled' to child benefit I didn't need it in the slightest. I used to give it to himself to buy his school lunches (aka burgers and a box of 10 JPS - he thinks I didn't know - eejit.) I honestly wouldn't have missed it - others are not so fortunate.

Pandora2

I once got into it with a PE Teacher, she insisted that track suit bottoms must be O'Neill's, about €60 if memory serves, and suggested we buy from the outlet supplier...turned out he gave her her own kit free for the business. I found exactly the same track bottom, without the discreet O'Neill's logo - Navy embroidery on navy material:rolleyes: in Dunnes for €12 and bought them, she sent my daughter to detention. Big mistake!! I was on the board;)

She never got her kit free again on my watch!! Didn't make me popular though;)

steddyeddy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I dont have children, but hope to have them someday. I agree that people cannot "send back" their children when things get bad, and I feel sorry for people who had children when they were financially ok and are now experiencing difficulties - but it is actually not anyones "constitutional right" to have a child.

How I go about living a happy life has little to do with the constitution to be honest. I live in a state and I have certain obligations to the state and the state has certain obligations to me.

daltonmd

later12 wrote: »

Well the thread is about the notion of a welfare trap and whether one exists in a substantial way. I'm just pointing out that losing a medical card is not a concern for the long term unemployed; they don't lose it by taking up employment.

No, the thread is about the cost of working being to high. If you take a paycut then the first thing to go is health insurance and in most cases people don't qualify for the medical card and FIS.

later12 wrote: »

again - this is not true. The FIS payment is there for low income earners and is designed to ensure they are not better off on welfare; I would say with a good deal of success too. You do not have to be coming off a Social Welfare payment to avail of FIS, you just need to be on a relatively low enough income which would otherwise be unattractive relative to social welfare benefits. The same applies to Back to School and other payments.

Agaon, it is true, we're not talking about low earners, it's about people on the average wage and the ceilings are too high for them to avail of most of these benefits.

The point is that the system would work better if it was targeted towards everyone who needs it rather than those who are long term unemployed. It's about incentivising people to stay in work and return to work without it causing financial hardship.

For example, in Germany (I know but it's a good example) instead of laying people off companies reduced earnings and the goernment stepped in to give some financial help - they still lost out but their long term jobs were protected. We have to start thinking outside of the box and looking at ways to protect those who work and help those to get back.