Lennox due to be put to sleep **Mod Warning - Post 97**

Jimmy Bottlehead

So Belfast City Council were successful in their bid to kill Lennox:

http://www.u.tv/news/Bid-to-save-Lennox-from-destruction-fails/10a3b176-8f51-431f-946e-6b272cfdb7ce

Obviously, there seems to be little people can do to prevent his death at this point, but I'm just letting others know they can voice their opinions on the Belfast City Council Facebook page which is open to the public:

http://www.facebook.com/belfastcitycouncil?ref=ts

It's also worth noting that the page has been trying to delete comments regarding the case, but cannot keep up with the traffic hitting the page.

Tranceypoo

Oh no, I really thought he would get a reprieve. Disgusting.

aN.Droid

But with Ms Barnes not in attendance on Tuesday, the Court of Appeal verdict appeared to spell the end.

Why was she not in court?

This whole thing is disgraceful though, at the very least these dogs should be allowed down to the south for re homing rather then destruction.

DamagedTrax

its gone beyond a dog at this stage, its a political issue now and that was never going to work in lennox's favour unfortunatly.

imagine the powers that be caving to the will of the people? that would be letting real democracy work.. and we couldnt have that could we?

gidget

Horrible news. Poor Lennox. A lot of people in the system ought to be hanging their heads in shame right now.

gavmcg92

They have taken down their comment section on their facebook page. Post a review of the page with your comments. They are cracking.

DamagedTrax

comments are still up, you just need to select 'comments by others'

ISDW

Lennox was offered rescue space in Eire but the family refused, they're as much to blame as anyone in this farce.

yes it is very sad that he's going to be pts, but what about the other hundreds of dogs that were put to sleep today in pounds in Ireland and the UK? Are they not just as important?

The judge had no choice but to uphold the decision, there was no legal reason for this appeal and yet again the poor dog had to stay where he was while people fought over it, instead of putting him out of his misery a long time ago.

dharma200

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=lennox%20pittbull%20belfast%20&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CGYQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.savelennox.co.uk%2F&ei=v4HXT-ilNsenhAfk993MAw&usg=AFQjCNEGABkj4rVmeKiVIC4v8RacovsF6A&cad=rja

That is a list of the agencies to contact if you are outraged by this.

I do not agree that the family are to blame, yes lennox might have been saved, but the amount of coverage the bs legislation has had will no doubt help the campaign to stop all dogs being treated in this manner. They are not to blame and it is not guaranteed that the same legislation mights come to the south, I am a pitbull owner and it petrifies me the law may be changed here in the republic, they will take my dog over my dead body.

I understand this whole lennox issue has divided alot of animal rescues etc etc and the family have come in for alot of criticism, but what this has done to highlight the plight of such dogs, is priceless and unfortuantely if it takes the death of lennox to cause such outrage that some change has to happen will only be a good thing, as terrible as it sounds.

There are many dogs in pounds here, put to sleep every day , yes, that is true, but that is not the issue here. lennox was not abandoned, he was stolen by the authorities under the guise of law, and the whole thing has been an absoloute farce ever since, of lies, perjury and stupidity.

ppink

dharma200 wrote: »

I do not agree that the family are to blame, yes lennox might have been saved, but the amount of coverage the bs legislation has had will no doubt help the campaign to stop all dogs being treated in this manner. They are not to blame and it is not guaranteed that the same legislation mights come to the south, I am a pitbull owner and it petrifies me the law may be changed here in the republic, they will take my dog over my dead body.

.

i was reading the other day about a similar law brought in in canada where it appears they phased it in, existing dogs were to be muzzled with no new ones bought in.
the one thing I just cannot for the life of me understnad is why people continue to try to get away with it in NI? the law is there so why put any dog in the position Lennox is in and Bruce before that...maybe I am just missing something

DamagedTrax

ppink wrote: »

the one thing I just cannot for the life of me understnad is why people continue to try to get away with it in NI? the law is there so why put any dog in the position Lennox is in and Bruce before that...maybe I am just missing something

the problem is the pit bull 'type' law. lennox wasnt a pit bull. a boxer/lab X could be considered a pitbull 'type' depending on what way the cross goes. and quite a few non bull breeds have been seized on looks alone. a large staffy could be siezed as a pit bull 'type'.

the law is akin to racial profiling in human terms and an absolute disgrace.

ppink

DamagedTrax wrote: »

the problem is the pit bull 'type' law. lennox wasnt a pit bull. a boxer/lab X could be considered a pitbull 'type' depending on what way the cross goes. and quite a few non bull breeds have been seized on looks alone.

Yes I have read all that but still I dont understand it. If he is not a pitbull and they really wanted him they could they not have got him dna tested from the outset to prove it?

If one of those stupid laws came in about GSD's I would move..or I would have nothing remotely like a GSD again, it would not be worth the risk to me. It would kill me to see either of my dogs held in a pound situation for 2 years!

DamagedTrax

firstly you cant DNA test a pitbull so there's no base to refute against.

secondly, its not about if he was a pit bull or not. the UK cant be seen to admit that there may still be pit bulls being kept (there are, thousands of them). so they brought in a law that generalises any dog that even looks like one.

if your dog is a pitbull 'type' it could be PTS for just fitting certain size dimensions, no matter what a DNA test says. :mad:

ppink

Oh I see what you are saying now! In other words 'type' could mean any dog with certain features?

DamagedTrax

yup. they go on size and behaviour. so a short haired blocky head terrier over 18" could easily be a pit bull by their standards.

Cherry Blossom

Personally, I think it's an utter disgrace that this poor dog was left to rot in such conditions for so long. As has been said re-homing the dog here was not an option as the family didn't want this. So he was allowed to continue his plight. His suffering should have ended at that point :mad:

It is not a bigger issue that just one dog as dog control laws in the UK are currently undergoing a massive over-haul. Returning him to the family is not an option. What are they supposed to do, carry on holding him for however many more months/years it takes for the legislation to make its way through the red tape?

Even then it's very unlikely the dog would been returned. This whole mess was dealt with in an appalling manner by all parties concerned.

DamagedTrax

if they had accepted a dog behaviour experts testimony on him then they could have easily returned him to the family, as the law allows for this as long as he gets registered and neutered and walks on leash and muzzle.

instead they went with the testimony of dog handler that had no qualifications to pass judgement on his behaviour and a dog warden that was proven to be a liar thru photographic evidence.

EGAR

DamagedTrax wrote: »

if they had accepted a dog behaviour experts testimony on him then they could have easily returned him to the family, as the law allows for this as long as he gets registered and neutered and walks on leash and muzzle.

instead they went with the testimony of dog handler that had no qualifications to pass judgement on his behaviour and a dog warden that was proven to be a liar thru photographic evidence.

Have any of you actually read any of the court documents? No? Link further down.

And I quote:

**Ms Barnes partner told the dogwardens that the dog would “rip your head off” if approached**

David Ryan, who assessed Lennox for the defense stated that Lennox went for him during the assessment. Sarah Fisher, who also worked for the defense used a fake hand on a stick to *touch* him.

So the dogwarden is a liar? Is she? Really? It took her months to gain Lennox' trust. She did not lie in Court.

Lennox was never socialised, was kept in a yard with an 8 foot wall and an iron gate, he suffered from hairloss *due to stress* and had *problems with people* BEFORE he was seized. This is what the owner emailed me in May 2010, based on this I strongly advised to petition the Court to have Lennox removed from NI jurisdiction. But that option was never given to the Courts by the owner - funny that!

Lennox was no more a *therapy* dog to the teenage daughter who has asthma than my Basset Hound is an agility champion.

Also, the whole case was funded by free legal aid, why all the begging for donations?

No one ever asked why there are no pic of an adult Lennox in the house apart from a badly photoshopped one on their website?

It's a disgraceful litany of lies, deceit and greed:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Belfast-dog-warden-terrorized-as-Save-Lennox-the-dog-campaign-continues-119391419.html

http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Judicial%20Decisions/PublishedByYear/Documents/2012/%5B2012%5D%20NICA%2019/j_j_GIR8515Final.htm




No one ever asked what the donations were for?

The whole *campaign* is based on lies and a slap in the face for anti-BSL campaigners. It has gotten so far now that the Attorney General is investigating the threats! Petrol soaked letters, physical attacks etc pp.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Belfast-City-Council-officials-abused-by-Save-Lennox-supporters-152015975.html

The only innocent parties in this are Lennox and the dogwardens to did their job according to the law in NI. As for the *lying dogwarden* she no longer is a dogwarden, she got promoted, yet, she takes time to go and visit Lennox and exercise him, in her own unpaid time. Some monster, eh?

DamagedTrax

EGAR wrote: »

Have any of you actually read any of the court documents? No? Link further down.

no, ive not read the court documents and can only go on reports by the main campaigners. if there's other stuff going on then fair enough. personally i dont give a bollox about anyone in the whole mess. seems to me that everyone involved made a balls up and the dog suffers.

As for the *lying dogwarden* she no longer is a dogwarden, she got promoted, yet, she takes time to go and visit Lennox and exercise him, in her own unpaid time

ive seen her words, ive also seen the pictures of her with lennox. the two accounts dont add up.

EGAR

As I already said, it took her months to gain his trust. Not so hard to understand, is it?

Dilbert75

EGAR it's good to hear your perspective on this. While I don't know anyone who agrees that BSL is right, there are two sides to every story and all I'd read so far were those of the Free Lennox campaign. It's interesting to see another angle to it. It does seem that the poor dog is being used as a pawn, for whatever reason.

ppink

I see that victoria from "its me or the dog" is involved with this case and is now looking to rehome Lennox in the US

(from her website)

The Sweeper

Lennox owners have lost their case. You have to argue BSL cases on the law, not on the dog - which is something lots of people don't understand. On the law, they've lost, and an appeal to the supreme court would see them lose again and leave the dog in captivity for longer.

The last request was for the dog to be released to care somewhere else, and Victoria Stilwell is trying to have him released to her, I believe, in the US, but I would be very surprised if it happens. As it stands I hear reports that Belfast city council will probably put him to sleep early next week, probably without contact from his family.

The problem with this case from a broader, BSL point of view, is that dogs released on a 'favour' under BSL cases have a great responsibility. They have to be the sort of dog who will NEVER escape and roam, NEVER growl or snap at someone, NEVER bite, regardless of circumstances. Because it will take just one dog, released as an exception, to misbehave and the whole argument on BSL will crumble.

Just on the law, let me explain it:

The reason a measuring tape decided the fate of Lennox is that laws needs standards and definitions. For there to be a law, there needs to be a line in the sand somewhere. Test cases are cases where that line in the sand is challenged, and sometimes redrawn.

Breed specific legislation as it relates to pit bull terriers is legislation that has drawn a line in the sand as to what constitutes a 'type' of dog. A pit bull a type, it is NOT a breed. An American Pitbull Terrier is a breed, but there are plenty of pit bull type dogs, including cross breeds.

Because a pit bull is a type, the law is entirely contingent upon appearance. There is a standard for what constitutes a pit bull type, and if your dog fits that standard your dog can be impounded as being of type. In some countries this type is more strictly applied than in others, but it's the basis of all BSL law.

This standard of type can be applied utterly regardless of your dog's lineage, breeding, behaviour, registration status or temperament.

The law is based on the premise that if it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck, it's a duck.

That is why the following things are inadmissable in court for most cases:

DNA evidence.
Proof of parentage of the dog, including statutory declarations as to what the dog's parents were frpm the person who bred the dog.
Historical registration of the dog with council as a different breed.
Veterinary records where the dog was referred to as a different breed.
Behavioural assessment of the dog.

None of the above matter because the law says:

Pitbull terriers look like [breed standard].

Does your dog look like this?

If Yes: Go straight to euthanasia. Do not pass go, do not collect £200.

If No: Go home with your dog.

From what I can tell, in Lennox case they were trying to argue cutting edge stuff to push that line in the sand. Caroline Barnes said eventually, that yes, Lennox is a pitbull type, HOWEVER this legislation is archaic and ridiculous and no dog should be judged based on appearance, so lets judge him based on behaviour.

And unfortuntely Lennox wasn't the finest candidate there'd ever been for judgement based on behaviour. The law remains unchallenged - he looks like a pitbull, so he'll die like a pitbull should, and none of the merry sideshow dance around behaviour applies because all of the behavioural assessments done demonstrate that Lennox is a dog with problems.

It doesn't matter that plenty of people own dogs with problems. It just matters that in Lennox case, those assessments were ineffective as the deciding factor on whether or not he should be returned to his family.

This was all brought home to me recently in Victoria, Australia where two BSL contested cases went in two very different directions.

Bear and Kooda, seized as pups under new BSL legislation and matured in captivity until their owners lost their case and the dogs were euthanised.

Tonka, seized as an adult after a neighbour's complaint, and released back to her owner.

All three dogs innocent of any behavioural wrongdoing. If you want to see contrast, google the names and the word VCAT (the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal, who hears these cases).

Tonka is far and away much closer to pitbull type than Bear and Kooda ever were.

The difference?

Bear and Kooda's owners went to trial with the evidence I have listed above - stat declarations, registration evidence from vets, so on, so forth. The tribunal set all of that to one side and said 'does it look like a duck? Then it dies like a duck.'

Tonka's owner went to trial with no DNA, no stat decs, no vet papers. Tonka's owner went to trial with an all-breeds dog show judge with 20 years experience. The all-breeds judge took the breed standard that the law is based on, and she judged Tonka against that breed standard. Her findings disagreed with the council rangers' findings on enough points of the standard that the judge said he'd take her 20 years dog show experience judging dogs against a standard over the council rangers' experience. Tonka wasn't pitbull type. Tonka went home.

If you're going to fight BSL, you need to intimately understand that it isn't even based on lineage, heritage or breed. It's really ASL - appearance specific legislation.

ISDW

That is one of the best posts I've ever read on here Sweeper

ppink

It is a great post Sweeper, thanks for that. it does go to show that nothing is ever as simple as it seems!
Every day I am reading another "Boycott Ireland" on the web regarding this story.

Binka

I've been following this thread and appreciate the insight of your post on the legal interpretation, Sweeper. Very interesting. Thanks

The Sweeper

For further reading, here's the DEFRA guide from the UK for those trying to enforce what a pitbull is - see page 14:

http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/dogs-guide-enforcers.pdf

You'll see that they refer to the American Dog Breeders Association breed standard for the pitbull as well.

In Victoria when they passed BSL late last year they issued a standard that includes some pictures (some really dodgy pictures quite frankly) but again it's the same deal - it's a breed standard drawn from the same sources as DEFRA's standard. If your dog looks like it conforms then it conforms and that conformation is the ONLY thing you can fight on down here, unless you have registered kennel club papers to state your dog is an American Staffordshire Terrier, for instance. There are also claims that if you have a statutory declaration issued by your vet that they certify your dog is not of pitbull type the court will accept that, but this is as yet untested at VCAT here. Plus the Aussie vet assocation body has recommended its members don't go issuing such stat decs - can you imagine the liability you leave yourself open to if you certify a dog as not being of type and it goes on to be a nuisance animal or vicious animal?

I'm beginning to think if BSL protests are to be effective at all they need to move completely away from claims that pit bull type dogs are the world's cuddliest couch potatoes, and move to a far less emotive and far more clinical assessment under the law.

It needs to focus on ideas, including that it is for instance ridiculous to claim that one dog is more safe than another because its legs are 20cms longer than its counterpart's legs.

I'm not 100% sure how NI have interpreted their laws to date around the appearance versus behaviour element - you'd have to ask EGAR about Bruce because I believe Bruce was never proven to be of type as per the standard, which may have helped in his release to EGAR, but I'm not sure of that.

fatmammycat

Is today the last day for Lennox? I read that Victoria Stilwell and Ceasar Milan have offered the dog a home, although I suspect this might be impossible to do through the courts at this late hour.

DamagedTrax

i think i read that its being brought up in parliament today by first minister robinson.

fatmammycat

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i think i read that its being brought up in parliament today by first minister robinson.

Oh really? I hope the poor dog can be rehomed someone who can take care of the poor old thing properly.

Cherry Blossom

fatmammycat - I've merged your thread with the existing one.