How could Triathlon in Ireland be improved?

couerdelion

To stop the Athy thread getting bogged down I thought I would start this thread.

How does the current racing prepare athletes for the international stage?

Is the NS points system fair?

Should waves be done on current rankings rather than age groups?

Is there too much drafting done and not enough done to stop/punish it?

couerdelion

For the national series I would like to see this reduced to say 7 races, with the best 5 results counting. This races would then become the premier events on the calendar and as the number of NS races is reduced the winner should be the best triathlete and not the best at picking races.

BTH

couerdelion wrote: »

For the national series I would like to see this reduced to say 7 races, with the best 5 results counting. This races would then become the premier events on the calendar and as the number of NS races is reduced the winner should be the best triathlete and not the best at picking races.

I can certainly see how that would improve the inconsistency that currently exists with certain races attracting more points than others. However, getting an entry to a NS race is difficult enough. You take away 3/4 of them and it would be mental with races selling out faster than a Bruce Springsteen concert. Demand would be so large that higher prices would naturally follow. I think the supply of NS races is just about right at the moment with all but the very largest selling out long before race day.

MrCreosote

I think one race towards the end of season should have a certain number of slots set aside for qualified athletes only, based say on NS positions, or a single result in a qualifying event. Make this the national champs with its own totally separate wave start.

tunney

couerdelion wrote: »

For the national series I would like to see this reduced to say 7 races, with the best 5 results counting. This races would then become the premier events on the calendar and as the number of NS races is reduced the winner should be the best triathlete and not the best at picking races.

Oh how life moves in circles.

And when there are 7 races in the NS. And most of them have capacity of less than 500 how to you then manage demand and entries and the disapointment of people who can't get into any of the NS races?

tunney

MrCreosote wrote: »

I think one race towards the end of season should have a certain number of slots set aside for qualified athletes only, based say on NS positions, or a single result in a qualifying event. Make this the national champs with its own totally separate wave start.

And then you have a completely different thread b1tching about elitism.......

elvis jones

if they want to grow the sport they need more races to suit beginners, the likes of a "super sprint".

A lot of beginners tend to avoid NS as they don't want to be miles behind the top guys..........thats going from talking to those starting off in the sport.

tunney

elvis jones wrote: »

if they want to grow the sport they need more races to suit beginners, the likes of a "super sprint".

How does that grow the sport?

catweazle

The national series needs to be a bit more selective on where these races are based. Connacht have one race and it is in the most remote corner of Mayo. I am from Galway and I could get to Dublin quicker than Belmullet. Why would I bother trying to get a ranking it would cost me a fortune in travel expenses.

I know the stock answer here will be, no Connacht races applied for it, none met the criteria etc etc. But Triathlon Ireland need to look at the bigger picture here and need to contact one or two Connacht races and say we want you to be in our national series, we wont take no for an answer and we will work with you in getting the national series license.

tunney

catweazle wrote: »

The national series needs to be a bit more selective on where these races are based. Connacht have one race and it is in the most remote corner of Mayo. I am from Galway and I could get to Dublin quicker than Belmullet. Why would I bother trying to get a ranking it would cost me a fortune in travel expenses.

I know the stock answer here will be, no Connacht races applied for it, none met the criteria etc etc. But Triathlon Ireland need to look at the bigger picture here and need to contact one or two Connacht races and say we want you to be in our national series, we wont take no for an answer and we will work with you in getting the national series license.

Or the Connacht clubs get off their ar$es and organise NS standard races? What NS races does your club organise?

elvis jones

tunney wrote: »

How does that grow the sport?

The same as 5k does for running, its an introduction. People don't have confidence and don't feel thay can do a "full" sprint. Once they do a super they gain convidence and move from there. I've seen a number of people do shorter super races and progress to sprints and olympic.

Perhaps a triathlon version of Couch to 5k for people returning to exercise might be a way for tri ireland to look at growing the number taking part and getting involved in the sport.

Also a look at junior races, look at the average age of someone doing triathlon and the number of juniors..........it seems a lot of people take up the sport in their late 20's to early 30's. We need to get kids in at an earlier age to the sport and in years to come that could show in the elite level.

MrCreosote

tunney wrote: »

And then you have a completely different thread b1tching about elitism.......

Course you would, but who cares. The aim of the national champs should be to find the elite, the best of the best...

I'm all for inclusive events, but there's a place for a simple on the day winner-takes-all event with the best qualifying beforehand to mitigate the whole sell-out problem. Like the Olympics rather than the WTS- if you puncture, tough. If you have an off-day, tough.

Bambaata

I think the national champ races should carry bonus points like before but not quite to the extent they did. If it was something like 2-5% bonus points then it would mean the main contenders would all have to race eachother. And maybe something like 2 out of 3 of the national champs (sprint, olympic, middle distance) would count for bonus.

On the wave thing, i agree that Athy is virtually a time trial and it does take away from it. That said i don't have an answer on how they could change that. If the race was later in the year maybe top 100NS ranked athlete start off in both male and female first but with it being early a lot wont have raced a lot of events yet.

couerdelion

tunney wrote: »

Oh how life moves in circles.

And when there are 7 races in the NS. And most of them have capacity of less than 500 how to you then manage demand and entries and the disapointment of people who can't get into any of the NS races?

Perhaps you change the criteria for acceptance as a NS event and mandate a minimum no of entries for an event to be a NS race so there are at least 700 places available (or however many is deemed feasible). Set aside 150 places for the previous years top 100 males / 50 females + and top 5 age groupers that fall outside those boundaries.

BTH

catweazle wrote: »

The national series needs to be a bit more selective on where these races are based. Connacht have one race and it is in the most remote corner of Mayo. I am from Galway and I could get to Dublin quicker than Belmullet. Why would I bother trying to get a ranking it would cost me a fortune in travel expenses.

I know the stock answer here will be, no Connacht races applied for it, none met the criteria etc etc. But Triathlon Ireland need to look at the bigger picture here and need to contact one or two Connacht races and say we want you to be in our national series, we wont take no for an answer and we will work with you in getting the national series license.

TI do this. I don't know of Connacht races specifically, but I have heard of other races who have in the past been approached about hosting a NS race and they refused.

I would imagine this has something to do with that decision.....

A lot of beginners tend to avoid NS as they don't want to be miles behind the top guys..........thats going from talking to those starting off in the sport.

catweazle

tunney wrote: »

Or the Connacht clubs get off their ar$es and organise NS standard races? What NS races does your club organise?

Again Tunny - what I said, Triathlon Ireland need to insist on certain races becoming up to scratch in Connacht with regard to qualification, again with not knowing the finer details of National series hosting I reckon Loughrea, Lough Key and Swinford all compare favorably with any National series event I have entered.

I assume TI have an overall objective of improving the development of Triathlon in the country, putting heads in sand and blaming race organizers in Connacht for lack of interest or running sub NS standard races isnt going to help develop the sport in Connacht.

Fazz

I think the standard is pretty good in terms of organisation, race quality, results timings, etc.

I do think there are further developments and improvements, and TI are probably working on these - e.g. Videos of highlights for races seen this year.

Areas that would be nice:
- live tracking of athletes - even if only at races for the spectators. Clearly this would be from timing company and at more cost to race organisers so hard to see for a while anyway

- better live updates via social media. Again debatable if this should be TI or Race Organisers. As an example, I'm hoping to go down and watch Hook or by Crook this weekend. I'll be posting live updates of athletes as well as videos all via twitter hopefully. I'll hash tag #hookorbycrook for anyone that wants to follow.

- minimum prize money for NS races. TI need to make this a ruling in my opinion, and it should be based on entry volume categories such as 0-250 251-500 etc.

- Proper security rules enforced by TI. They have to drive it otherwise race organisers could cut corners as recently seen.
If poor security meant losing NS title for following year I'd think it would be kept in line!

- I like the idea above of an overall final series race for top ranked athletes and all in same wave etc. could be a big attraction and gives athletes a goal of making it to the big event. How many is the question. 50?, 100? 200?

- regarding NS points, I've had a think and it is actually a fair approach in fairness so hard to change it. Has to be enough races in enough locations to cater for demand. It also wouldn't be fair really to have winner get xxx points as then athletes would be looking for easy races to pick up better points (imagine BTH's fuel bill!!! )

I'm sure I've more, but those off top of my head anyway...

BennyMul

Coming from a newb to the sport,
for the majority when you enter a race (which it is) you are in with the best and do not have a chance of placing let alone winning, at the end they are just competing against an imaginary set time.

however if there was an ability standard where you competed against your own standard, this would improve the normal athlete, and upon certain points they move up a level.

BTH

Fazz wrote: »

As an example, I'm hoping to go down and watch Hook or by Crook this weekend. I'll be posting live updates of athletes as well as videos all via twitter hopefully. I'll hash tag #hookorbycrook for anyone that wants to follow.

Can I borrow your bike? :rolleyes:

Fazz wrote: »

(imagine BTH's fuel bill!!! )

Petrol is coming down again

tunney

catweazle wrote: »

Again Tunny - what I said, Triathlon Ireland need to insist on certain races becoming up to scratch in Connacht with regard to qualification, again with not knowing the finer details of National series hosting I reckon Loughrea, Lough Key and Swinford all compare favorably with any National series event I have entered.

I assume TI have an overall objective of improving the development of Triathlon in the country, putting heads in sand and blaming race organizers in Connacht for lack of interest or running sub NS standard races isnt going to help develop the sport in Connacht.

Always easier for it to be someone else's fault eh?

Daz1214

The national championship races should be held towards the end of the season. The decision to hold the national sprint champs in may was a ridiculous decision, way too early in the season in my opinion.

Also, as already said, keep the same number of NS races on the calendar but have the series worked out on a basis of 4 or 5 best results. With work and family commitments, not everyone can make all NS races on the calendar and that puts them at a disadvantage.

Also, there should be a TI standard for security at races as has been said. Athy was very lax this year, was actually surprised by this. Athlone last year had security staff on all entrances and exits and checked everythin coming and going. Maybe a barcoded wristband that corresponds to a barcode on the race number that attaches to the bike.

Drafting is a big problem but when you have, give or take, 80 competitors per wave goin off at 5/10 mins apart its always goin to be a congested bike route, specially over a sprint bike leg. Maybe marshals should be tougher but i wonder would constant penalties turn people off the sport?

Brick Session

Maybe Triathlon Ireland could look at younger age groups. Develop the sport from a younger age perhaps. Help clubs to cater for more kids events. Our 10 years olds are the elites of the future.

couerdelion

Daz1214 wrote: »

The national championship races should be held towards the end of the season. The decision to hold the national sprint champs in may was a ridiculous decision, way too early in the season in my opinion.

It's a tricky balancing act. Too early in the season and most people haven't peaked, too late and people are fatigued.

Daz1214 wrote: »

Also, as already said, keep the same number of NS races on the calendar but have the series worked out on a basis of 4 or 5 best results. With work and family commitments, not everyone can make all NS races on the calendar and that puts them at a disadvantage.

It currently is best 5 results but is that fair to everyone if some races seem easier to pick points up in than others or is that just another factor to add in to the strategy for those competing for NS positions?

Daz1214 wrote: »

Also, there should be a TI standard for security at races as has been said. Athy was very lax this year, was actually surprised by this. Athlone last year had security staff on all entrances and exits and checked everythin coming and going. Maybe a barcoded wristband that corresponds to a barcode on the race number that attaches to the bike.

Agree

Daz1214 wrote: »

Drafting is a big problem but when you have, give or take, 80 competitors per wave goin off at 5/10 mins apart its always goin to be a congested bike route, specially over a sprint bike leg. Maybe marshals should be tougher but i wonder would constant penalties turn people off the sport?

If you get a penalty it'll make you think twice about doing it again. If you are warned and continue to draft then you get DQ'd. Things will get congested but it's up to you to overtake or move back.

tunney

Brick Session wrote: »

Maybe Triathlon Ireland could look at younger age groups. Develop the sport from a younger age perhaps. Help clubs to cater for more kids events. Our 10 years olds are the elites of the future.

How do you suggest this is done?

Lets look at GAA - how is it done? Well developed plans that are delivered AT THE CLUB level. Show me one club that has an underage programme? Or an interest in one?

Lets be honest and look at the demographic of most triathletes. Male, late twenties, or in their thirties. AB socio-economic grouping.

Now lets consider the retention rate for triathletes. Four years. That's the average time someone spends in the sport.

So considering these two facts who do you suppose is going to coach kids on a Saturday and Sunday morning in the clubs?

catweazle

tunney wrote: »

Show me one club that has an underage programme? Or an interest in one?

It can be done Tunny!

Predator are running a pretty good junior club for a small catchment area - around 100 junior members, with 3 or 4 coached sessions a week. 4 Junior Aquathons held already and a TI affiliated National Junior triathlon championship going to be held in September.

tunney

catweazle wrote: »

It can be done TunnEy!

Predator are running a pretty good junior club for a small catchment area - around 100 junior members, with 3 or 4 coached sessions a week. 4 Junior Aquathons held already and a TI affiliated National Junior triathlon championship going to be held in September.

well maybe if they spent less time on underage training they'd have time to run an NS standard race?

JohnM77

tunney wrote: »

How do you suggest this is done?

Lets look at GAA - how is it done? Well developed plans that are delivered AT THE CLUB level. Show me one club that has an underage programme? Or an interest in one?

Lets be honest and look at the demographic of most triathletes. Male, late twenties, or in their thirties. AB socio-economic grouping.

Now lets consider the retention rate for triathletes. Four years. That's the average time someone spends in the sport.

So considering these two facts who do you suppose is going to coach kids on a Saturday and Sunday morning in the clubs?

Wicklow has recently establised a Youths section of the club. This has a seperate committee and dedicated coaches. Recently organised a Training day for under 12s and had about 20 attendees with some as young as 7 years old. The intention would be to run these sessions for different age groups on a regular basis. This is a a great step forward in developing triathlon at underage level and is due to the hard work and dedication of a lot of club members. This project is still at an early stage but is one of the top priorities for the club over the next few years.

tunney

JohnM77 wrote: »

Wicklow has recently establised a Youths section of the club. This has a seperate committee and dedicated coaches. Recently organised a Training day for under 12s and had about 20 attendees with some as young as 7 years old. The intention would be to run these sessions for different age groups on a regular basis. This is a a great step forward in developing triathlon at underage level and is due to the hard work and dedication of a lot of club members. This project is still at an early stage but is one of the top priorities for the club over the next few years.

Excellent stuff. I did not know that.

couerdelion

tunney wrote: »

How do you suggest this is done?

Lets look at GAA - how is it done? Well developed plans that are delivered AT THE CLUB level. Show me one club that has an underage programme? Or an interest in one?

Lets be honest and look at the demographic of most triathletes. Male, late twenties, or in their thirties. AB socio-economic grouping.

Now lets consider the retention rate for triathletes. Four years. That's the average time someone spends in the sport.

So considering these two facts who do you suppose is going to coach kids on a Saturday and Sunday morning in the clubs?

GAA's not a great example, it's a parish community based sport where triathlon never will be. In most other sports (e.g. soccer, rugby) the govening body will launch initiatives and ask the clubs to support and particpate.

We're looking at getting a junior section up and running but it's not going to be for a while. We've had a meeting and set up a group to look after that side of things.

If TI had a blueprint saying "this is what you need to do to set up a junior section" then things would be easier. I would not expect them to do anything but act as a guide. I aren't having a go at the TI about this. The demand from Juniors has to be there too to make this worthwhile.

I'd be interested in the retention rate for other sports as a comparison?

shotgunmcos

JohnM77 wrote: »

Wicklow has recently establised a Youths section of the club. This has a seperate committee and dedicated coaches. Recently organised a Training day for under 12s and had about 20 attendees with some as young as 7 years old. The intention would be to run these sessions for different age groups on a regular basis. This is a a great step forward in developing triathlon at underage level and is due to the hard work and dedication of a lot of club members. This project is still at an early stage but is one of the top priorities for the club over the next few years.

I was also pretty impressed at the Portlaois triathlon back in April that they had an U10,U12 etc races. It was great to watch the kids in action IMO and hats off to the Trilogy Club for that.

LTC arrange a kids splash 'n dash on the beach during the cycle leg of the HOTW triathlon which is good too.

I believe firmly that the development of Triathlon in Ireland lies in the kids. Putting events on for kids will lead to more kiddie tri programmes and draw more interest to the sport in general. I think the relay format in particular that they are binging to the Commonwealth Games would be a draw for an all schools junior and senior triathlon champs...

That and the Olympics

elvis jones

shotgunmcos wrote: »

I was also pretty impressed at the Portlaois triathlon back in April that they had an U10,U12 etc races. It was great to watch the kids in action IMO and hats off to the Trilogy Club for that.

LTC arrange a kids splash 'n dash on the beach during the cycle leg of the HOTW triathlon which is good too.

I believe firmly that the development of Triathlon in Ireland lies in the kids. Putting events on for kids will lead to more kiddie tri programmes and draw more interest to the sport in general. I think the relay format in particular that they are binging to the Commonwealth Games would be a draw for an all schools junior and senior triathlon champs...

That and the Olympics

Thanks

The race director is really into getting kids involved. We run an aquathon in 2010 as well.

It was great to see proud parents cheering on kids in club gear.