Should men get paternity leave?

Jackobyte

Lads, hear me out.. it's not our fault we were born males and can't carry a child.
The least benefits we should get is a few weeks off to be with babies when they are born and get paid for it. Like, am I the only one who finds it unfair that just becoz women donated an egg and minded a child in their stomach for a few months gives them the excuse to leave the kitchen and have a few weeks off while we still have to work and fend for our family.

Why can't men have this right too of a few weeks off work? Shur we helped get the women pregnant... we donated our sperm??? We're as tired as they are and need the few weeks off. You don't know how tiring it gets listening to women moaning about "going into labour". More tiring than labour itself, I'd say.

I demand paternity leave for all males who donate sperm to baby making.

Where To

Who would make the sandwiches?

policarp

If your missus could see this post you deffo would need a few weeks baternity leave. . .

Cookie_Monster

It should be called parental leave and be split between either partner as they so choose up to the given allowance. (Like in Sweden, I think it is)

southcentralts

So they didn't give you time off for the euros eh. Bet your wife is glad you are not at home everyday drinking beer and shouting at the telly with her looking after the newborn.

Overflow

Jackobyte wrote: »

Lads, hear me out.. it's not our fault we were born males and can't carry a child.
The least benefits we should get is a few weeks off to be with babies when they are born and get paid for it. Like, am I the only one who finds it unfair that just becoz women donated an egg and minded a child in their stomach for a few months gives them the excuse to leave the kitchen and have a few weeks off while we still have to work and fend for our family.

Why can't men have this right too of a few weeks off work? Shur we helped get the women pregnant... we donated our sperm??? We're as tired as they are and need the few weeks off. You don't know how tiring it gets listening to women moaning about "going into labour". More tiring than labour itself, I'd say.

I demand paternity leave for all males who donate sperm to baby making.

We do, 10 months paid leave, it was great, but that's here in Norway :P

krudler

Definitely, I dont see why men should miss so much of a childs early development by being at work all week.

biko

In Sweden, the only country in the forefront of equality and childcare:

Parents are entitled to 480 days of paid leave per child, with 60 days being reserved for each parent. This is mainly to encourage equality and shared responsibility. Fathers are also entitled to 10 extra paid days of leave when the child is born.

Shenshen

Jackobyte wrote: »

Lads, hear me out.. it's not our fault we were born males and can't carry a child.
The least benefits we should get is a few weeks off to be with babies when they are born and get paid for it. Like, am I the only one who finds it unfair that just becoz women donated an egg and minded a child in their stomach for a few months gives them the excuse to leave the kitchen and have a few weeks off while we still have to work and fend for our family.

Why can't men have this right too of a few weeks off work? Shur we helped get the women pregnant... we donated our sperm??? We're as tired as they are and need the few weeks off. You don't know how tiring it gets listening to women moaning about "going into labour". More tiring than labour itself, I'd say.

I demand paternity leave for all males who donate sperm to baby making.

I think men ought to be able to get paternity leave to be able to stay home and look after the child.
I'm finding it outrageous that this isn't legally guaranteed in Ireland, it's highly discriminatory.

chin_grin

Jackobyte wrote: »

....minded a child in their stomach for a few months....

I'd take you a little more seriously if you understood basic biology.

Radharc na Sleibhte

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It should be called parental leave and be split between either partner as they so choose up to the given allowance. (Like in Sweden, I think it is)

biko wrote: »

In Sweden, the only country in the forefront of equality and childcare:

Parents are entitled to 480 days of paid leave per child, with 60 days being reserved for each parent. This is mainly to encourage equality and shared responsibility. Fathers are also entitled to 10 extra paid days of leave when the child is born.

+1
Im going to Sweden to make babies.

Feeona

Jackobyte wrote: »

You don't know how tiring it gets listening to women moaning about "going into labour".

Best 'Look at how many women I impregnated' boast thread eva!

2rkehij30qtza5

I was under the impression that men can take paternity leave in this country..but both parents can't together. Sí the woman gets 26 weeks but if she chooses to return to work after say 6 weeks then the man can take the 20 weeks she didn't use? I know people who have done this!

Shenshen

Arlo Powerful Butter wrote: »

I was under the impression that men can take paternity leave in this country..but both parents can't together. Sí the woman gets 26 weeks but if she chooses to return to work after say 6 weeks then the man can take the 20 weeks she didn't use? I know people who have done this!

I think it's not impossible, but it is at the employer's discretion.
There is no legal framework guaranteeing that men can take parental leave, and I know that some employers will refuse men to take any kind of additional leave.

Lux23

Yes, of course. I think they got like two weeks in my last job which I thought was useless, a month or two would be about right. After all, Dad's are kept awake as much as Mums.

Zulu

It's better for society as a whole if fathers are included in child care. It really irks me that the law still see's only women as care providers.

jester77

They do here, not sure of the exact amount but the dads here take a few months off. It doesn't have to be directly after the birth either. You can split it, most take a few weeks after the birth and then a couple of months once the baby is a little older.

seamus

Arlo Powerful Butter wrote: »

I was under the impression that men can take paternity leave in this country..but both parents can't together. Sí the woman gets 26 weeks but if she chooses to return to work after say 6 weeks then the man can take the 20 weeks she didn't use? I know people who have done this!

No, this is not possible under the normal rules. The woman is entitled to 26 weeks paid maternity benefit from the state. If she returns to work early, the balance is lost and can't be claimed at a later date or transferred to a partner.

Some employers might work favourable arrangements and give paid paternity leave for men, but the state doesn't pay anything. Most employers in this country still operate on the same backwards basis as the state and provide no benefits or concessions to new fathers. In most cases they might overlook the day or two off when the mother is in labour and the child is born but otherwise almost universally new fathers have to take days from their annual leave if they want to take up their correct place minding the child and mother during the first couple of weeks after birth.

I don't necessarily condemn employers on this, as they can't claim back anything for allowing paternity leave, however employers' general inflexibility on it is indicative of how ingrained these backwards attitudes are across all institutions of the state.

There is provision for parental leave which allows either parent to take a certain amount of leave for each child under five. However, this is unpaid so most people cannot afford to avail of it.

In reality maternity leave should be much like the UK system with 10 months paid at the pre-birth salary. It should be possible to split it half-and-half between the parents (or 70:30 or whatever), and it should be possible to spread it out over the first year rather than as one big block of leave, to give both parents a chance to wean themselves back into work.

Unavailable for Comment

No matter how unfair you might feel it is that only the woman is entitled to 26 weeks maternity benefit, what is really unfair is that if a woman and a man adopt a child only the woman is entitled to the 24 weeks adoptive leave.

stovelid

Yes we should but to, you know, to help with looking after the baby and all that.

Parents are entitled to 14 weeks parental leave for each child but it's unpaid.

henryd65

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

No matter how unfair you might feel it is that only the woman is entitled to 26 weeks maternity benefit, what is really unfair is that if a woman and a man adopt a child only the woman is entitled to the 24 weeks adoptive leave.

+1
I can never understand how this blatant discrimination is allowed to stand.

My own theory is adoptive parents are so relieved when adoption finally occurs, that the last thing they want to do is create an issue re leave.

It should be mandatory IMO.
Help take the pressure off the mother.

Bad Panda

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

No matter how unfair you might feel it is that only the woman is entitled to 26 weeks maternity benefit, what is really unfair is that if a woman and a man adopt a child only the woman is entitled to the 24 weeks adoptive leave.

I'm shocked a feminist group hasn't wailed about this yet. I mean, after all, all they want is equality. :rolleyes:

Feeona

Bad Panda wrote: »

I'm shocked a feminist group hasn't wailed about this yet. I mean, after all, all they want is equality. :rolleyes:

I'm shocked men expect women to do their dirty work :eek:

seamus

Bad Panda wrote: »

I'm shocked a feminist group hasn't wailed about this yet. I mean, after all, all they want is equality. :rolleyes:

Feminism is only about equal rights for women.
They are not concerned about areas where women have greater rights than men.

Zulu

seamus wrote: »

Feminism is only about equal rights for women.
They are not concerned about areas where women have greater rights than men.

...and too short sighted to realise that an imbalance in childcare rights for fathers is part of what maintains the final few obstacles for women in the workplace.

Morag

Bad Panda wrote: »

I'm shocked a feminist group hasn't wailed about this yet. I mean, after all, all they want is equality. :rolleyes:

There have been statements by feminist groups about this and calling for paternity leave.
There have been small father's groups calling for it as well
but until a majority of men lobby for it, it's not going to happen.
Only 1 political party has policy on paternity leave and that is Sinn Fein.

CageWager

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It should be called parental leave and be split between either partner as they so choose

Good luck winning that negotiation with a pregnant woman..

Zulu

works in sweden

SunnyDub1

Do you know how painful it is and how long it takes to recover after pushing a baby of 5-9 pounds out of you ?

hardCopy

Zulu wrote: »

...and too short sighted to realise that an imbalance in childcare rights for fathers is part of what maintains the final few obstacles for women in the workplace.

Exactly, a lot of employers are reluctant to employ women of a certain age because it usually means massive disruption for the business.

If leave was spread among the two it may negate this issue as men would be just as likely to take time off.

The Corinthian

RVP 11 wrote: »

It should be mandatory IMO.
Help take the pressure off the mother.

If that is the only reason you want to introduce paternity leave, you'll get little take up on it.

The history of paternity leave in other countries has often followed the same pattern; it's introduced typically before any other reform of father's rights and as a result most men don't avail of it.

Why? Because (as is the case in Ireland with unmarried fathers) you would be staying a home to care for a child you have the same legal relationship with as a babysitter you hired and as a result the message that "it's a woman's job" doesn't really change.

In places like Germany where paternity leave it turned out not to work at the start because of this. At first media campaigns were employed to counter the lack of take up. Then greater enforcement by having a portion of parental leave that had to be taken up by a man or lost, but ultimately it was only when the laws surrounding paternity rights began to be reformed that any real take up was seen.

runawaybishop

SunnyDub1 wrote: »

Do you know how painful it is and how long it takes to recover after pushing a baby of 5-9 pounds out of you ?

About as painful as it is to hear this trotted out in every baby thread.

Teyla Emmagan

I would be all for this. Minding a small baby is horrifically tough work, most new mothers would love a break at a desk to recover from it.

Eoin

SunnyDub1 wrote: »

Do you know how painful it is and how long it takes to recover after pushing a baby of 5-9 pounds out of you ?

1) Which is why there's a mandatory 6 week window when maternity leave must be taken. 6 months is not normally required for the physical recuperation.

2) It should be a choice that the parents can make together - if the mother doesn't feel fit to return to work earlier than the 6 months, then fine.

Teyla Emmagan wrote:

I would be all for this. Minding a small baby is horrifically tough work, most new mothers would love a break at a desk to recover from it.

And it's also pretty crap having to leave your newborn to go into work every day and miss out because the law discriminates against fathers. 2 sides to the story.

Sharrow wrote:

but until a majority of men lobby for it, it's not going to happen.

Unfortunately my local TD, Mary Mitchell O'Connor, is not receptive to the concept at all based on the email conversation I had with her. She is very quick to point out the gender pay gap and compare us to a country like Norway, yet ignore that Norway gives paternity leave. Apparently parental leave should be good enough for me.

hondasam

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=paternity%20leave%20europe&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CGEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FParental_leave&ei=stfZT9rlLMfLhAfvh9jpAw&usg=AFQjCNHMjp_7_eLX5n8t-_r0qyBM2NfWBA

How many men/women take the unpaid parental leave ?

starbelgrade

SunnyDub1 wrote: »

Do you know how painful it is and how long it takes to recover after pushing a baby of 5-9 pounds out of you ?

I had a 14 pound shite the other day.

Barely flinched.

Teyla Emmagan

Eoin wrote: »

1)
And it's also pretty crap having to leave your newborn to go into work every day and miss out because the law discriminates against fathers. 2 sides to the story.

I know. My post was more a reaction against the OP's. He seems to think that maternity leave consists of a few weeks off to laze around watching Jeremy Kyle while the baby takes care of itself. Hardly the case, if all the frazzled, exhausted and battered new mothers I know are anything to go by!

RoboRat

Im a new father (7 weeks old) and I hate the fact that I didn't get any paternity leave. I took 2 weeks as the wife had a section and needed me, but they were my holidays and now I have SFA holidays left and I am absolutely knackered and need a break.

I am up at 6.20 in the morn to commute, get home at 6, take the baby off the missus and look after him (bath him), put him down about 7.30 ,then go down and make the dinner. Eat dinner, clean up and do whatever needs to be done. Then I have to do the feed at 11, usually getting to bed about 12 back up at 3am to change him and up at 6.20 for work.

I am doing everything that I can to help and I miss not being there for my son as he is always in better form when I am there. The missus is breast feeding and she finds it incredibly difficult as he is always moaning and mooching because he can smell the milk and associates her with food! When I am minding him he is in great form and much happier.

I think the government need to look at Sweden and Norway as they seem to have a much better society in general and I am sure the fact that parents get to properly bond with their children has a lot to do with that.

hondasam

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I would be all for this. Minding a small baby is horrifically tough work, most new mothers would love a break at a desk to recover from it.

Working and having children is always going to be tough. Mother's who find it hard while at home with a newborn will find it increasingly difficult when it's time to go back to work.

Eoin

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I know. My post was more a reaction against the OP's. He seems to think that maternity leave consists of a few weeks off to laze around watching Jeremy Kyle while the baby takes care of itself. Hardly the case, if all the frazzled, exhausted and battered new mothers I know are anything to go by!

Yeah, the OP's post isn't that great a start to the conversation. But would the new mothers you know want to do what the guy in the post right below yours is doing? Because that's the reality for a lot of new fathers.

RoboRat

But would the new mothers you know want to do what the guy in the post right below yours is doing? Because that's the reality for a lot of new fathers.

It is bloody tough as I am trying to be actively involved and help my wife. I know she is having a hard time and I am doing my best to help her but I am exhausted and I just have to keep going - I don't have a choice as I need her to be OK as she is breast feeding him and I know that I have to put the baby and my wife first.

There are blokes out there who would take it as a 6 week hiatus and have a great time but there are also many blokes who would use it to help our partners and bond with our kids.

pwurple

seamus wrote: »

No, this is not possible under the normal rules. The woman is entitled to 26 weeks paid maternity benefit from the state. If she returns to work early, the balance is lost and can't be claimed at a later date or transferred to a partner.

There is actually one method by which the balance can be claimed by the husband. But the woman has to actually drop dead for it to be allowed.

It's called the widowers transfer.

hondasam

RoboRat wrote: »

It is bloody tough as I am trying to be actively involved and help my wife. I know she is having a hard time and I am doing my best to help her but I am exhausted and I just have to keep going - I don't have a choice as I need her to be OK as she is breast feeding him and I know that I have to put the baby and my wife first.

There are blokes out there who would take it as a 6 week hiatus and have a great time but there are also many blokes who would use it to help our partners and bond with our kids.

Don't take this the wrong way ok.

Your wife needs rest but so do you, she can catch a few hours during the day but you can't. I personally feel some mother's expect a bit much from working father's.
There are enough hours in the day for her to make dinner. If you get exhausted you will be no good to anyone her or baby.:)
I would add these are the easy months, it get's a lot harder when ye are both working.

Ickle Magoo

Those first few weeks with a newborn are an exhausting whirl-wind - it's ridiculous that fathers aren't legally entitled to have/share fully paid parental leave...I'm guessing it's another archaic throwback to the all-male policy makers with their out-dated notions on gender roles.

It's utterly short-sighted, in 2012, not to recognise the immediate and future familial, social and mental health benefits to ensuring both parents get some time to adjust to such a huge change in their lives, bond with their child and enjoy some time discovering parenthood together...and really disappointing that there is only one political party with any intentions of changing the status quo.

RoboRat

She is as busy as I am, she is working to the Gina Ford routine and she has to keep him awake which is a struggle all day. Unfortunately that is all happening when I am away at work so when I get in I look after the other things. Its crap in the short term but when the baby is sleeping the full night by 3 months its well worth it.

We are both very fair with each other and I get a lie in on Sunday and she gets it on Saturday.

Lyra Fangs

I think it's a disgrace that men don't get paternity leave. Not only do they miss out on bonding with their child during such a crucial period of their life but the mother is expected to care for the child by herself while the husband is at work. If both were given time off work then they could split the duties which would make the first few months of parenthood a lot easier for both of them.

jaja321

RoboRat wrote: »

She is as busy as I am, she is working to the Gina Ford routine and she has to keep him awake which is a struggle all day. Unfortunately that is all happening when I am away at work so when I get in I look after the other things. Its crap in the short term but when the baby is sleeping the full night by 3 months its well worth it.

We are both very fair with each other and I get a lie in on Sunday and she gets it on Saturday.

The Gina Forde schedule is tough, but it works! With be worth it in the end. Best of luck

Unavailable for Comment

Has the disparity of the paid leave allocation got something to do with the fact that traditionally women didn't get paid as well as men so having them out of work wouldn't have such an economic impact on a business?

Lawrence1895

Why not? It's like that in Germany for a good few years now, both parents can also share the paternity leave.

Eoin

Unavailable for Comment wrote: »

Has the disparity of the paid leave allocation got something to do with the fact that traditionally women didn't get paid as well as men so having them out of work wouldn't have such an economic impact on a business?

I doubt it. There's no paid maternity leave in Irish employment law; just the right to take the leave.

Lyra Fangs wrote:

I think it's a disgrace that men don't get paternity leave. Not only do they miss out on bonding with their child during such a crucial period of their life but the mother is expected to care for the child by herself while the husband is at work. If both were given time off work then they could split the duties which would make the first few months of parenthood a lot easier for both of them.

I find your wording a little strange, while I agree with the overall point. In most cases, the parents do split the duties - but the father has to go into work as well. I don't know any new fathers who go home and put their feet up for the evening.