maximum points?

montown

so with the introduction of the 25 bonus points, 625 is now the maximum you can get in the leaving cert, right? my question is is the points cap for courses also going to change or is 625 just theoretical, like someone with 7 A1s saying they got 700? just say for instance there's 20 places on a course and all 20 get, say 610, is that going to be the minimum points for that course? will people without honours maths therefore not be able to even stand a chance at getting into the course? or will the minimum points just be 600. this is all figurative of course

Chris68

The cap will change. 625 is not theoretical. Sorry.

partyatmygaff

What's the point of bonus points if they're going to be purely theoretical?

With this (IMO) terrible idea of giving bonus points to HL Maths they've essentially locked out people who don't have an aptitude for Maths from competitive courses.

finality

I seriously doubt the minimum points for any course will exceed 600.

partyatmygaff

finality wrote: »

I seriously doubt the minimum points for any course will exceed 600.

Dental Science might just about approach 600 i'd say.

finality

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Dental Science might just about approach 600 i'd say.

It'll be interesting to see, that's for sure.

Liveforrugby

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Dental Science might just about approach 600 i'd say.

Do you think people applying for Dentistry do Honors maths? In your experience, hanging out around trinity, do dental students usually have higher maths?

partyatmygaff

Liveforrugby wrote: »

Do you think people applying for Dentistry do Honors maths? In your experience, hanging out around trinity, do dental students usually have higher maths?

I know a few people studying dental science and they all did HL Maths. Not because they needed it for the course but because they needed it for points (back during the pre-bonus days). Now with the points bonus, i'd imagine it'll be almost impossible to be competitive unless you're decent at HL Maths.

MeltyButter

partyatmygaff wrote: »

What's the point of bonus points if they're going to be purely theoretical?

With this (IMO) terrible idea of giving bonus points to HL Maths they've essentially locked out people who don't have an aptitude for Maths from competitive courses.

Yeah we should keep telling everyone that they're special on the inside and just let them do all of the courses that they're not qualified to do.

In all seriousness: No such thing as "no aptitude for maths"; only "no aptitude for working" - in other words, laziness.

partyatmygaff

MeltyButter wrote: »

Yeah we should keep telling everyone that they're special on the inside and just let them do all of the courses that they're not qualified to do.

You don't need HL Maths for a lot of high points courses. Medicine, Pharmacy, Dental Science, Law and many other high points courses don't actually require HL Maths but due to the bonus points it's become almost essential for the CAO.

In all seriousness: No such thing as "no aptitude for maths"; only "no aptitude for working" - in other words, laziness.

In the vast majority of cases, you're right. In certain cases however some people might just not be able for HL Maths.

iluvgreenday246

MeltyButter wrote: »

In all seriousness: No such thing as "no aptitude for maths"; only "no aptitude for working" - in other words, laziness.

Thats a horrible thing to say.... im repeating this year but last year i didnt do honours maths because in all honesty i knew i wouldnt have gotten the payback on points for honours maths as i would have in other subjects! I would have had to spend ages on it every night and it would have impacted my other subjetcs so dont go try telling me i dont do honours maths because im lazy. Take your snobbery elsewhere....

validusername1

Yeah, it makes the maximum points 625 now.
I wouldn't worry though, I doubt much people will get that high!

I think the bonus points for passing HL maths is beyond stupid. They're doing it to give people an incentive to do HL maths, fair enough, but if people found HL maths too difficult before, they are still going to find it as difficult now. The course needs to change. It is a ridiculous level of difficulty for students who may not even/probably won't need it ever again! If they want students to improve maths skills, they need to ease the course a bit and change the way it is taught, as previous maths results clearly show that the current way is not working out very well.

It's also not fair to people who excel at other subjects. Hypothetically, let's say I'm amazing at Irish. Why can I not get bonus points for being great at that but somebody else will get bonus points for being great at Maths!? It just makes no sense at all.
/Rant over.

im invisible

Do they give bonus points for doing all the exams through irish?
Been a while since i sat the leaving, but you used to get bonus points for HL maths in specific courses, i think in UCD anyway, why did they change it?

mcmxci

It must depend on the course/institution. If you need an HPAT for example, they subtract a set number of your CAO points and then add your HPAT score, which is in marks, not a percentage. People need unearthly totals of more than 700.

mcmxci

im invisible wrote: »

Do they give bonus points for doing all the exams through irish?
Been a while since i sat the leaving, but you used to get bonus points for HL maths in specific courses, i think in UCD anyway, why did they change it?

I think answering through Irish gets additional marks. In History, you get extra marks for doing the paper through Irish but not for the pre-submitted essay.

Zomg Okay

MeltyButter wrote: »

In all seriousness: No such thing as "no aptitude for maths"; only "no aptitude for working" - in other words, laziness.

I can assure you that I am absolutely hopeless at maths and it isn't for lack of trying.

Namlub

MeltyButter wrote: »

Yeah we should keep telling everyone that they're special on the inside and just let them do all of the courses that they're not qualified to do.

In all seriousness: No such thing as "no aptitude for maths"; only "no aptitude for working" - in other words, laziness.

And your massively over-simplistic viewpoint isn't lazy at all...

finality

validusername1 wrote: »

Yeah, it makes the maximum points 625 now.
I wouldn't worry though, I doubt much people will get that high!

I think the bonus points for passing HL maths is beyond stupid. They're doing it to give people an incentive to do HL maths, fair enough, but if people found HL maths too difficult before, they are still going to find it as difficult now. The course needs to change. It is a ridiculous level of difficulty for students who may not even/probably won't need it ever again! If they want students to improve maths skills, they need to ease the course a bit and change the way it is taught, as previous maths results clearly show that the current way is not working out very well.

It's also not fair to people who excel at other subjects. Hypothetically, let's say I'm amazing at Irish. Why can I not get bonus points for being great at that but somebody else will get bonus points for being great at Maths!? It just makes no sense at all.
/Rant over.

Um, they have changed the course? And I don't think HL maths is too difficult at all, it's much easier than the equivalent in other countries. Ireland tends to do quite badly in international second level maths Olympiads because of the fact that our syllabus is inferior to other countries. I have a book that's used to help students prepare for maths Olympiads and the material in it is much, much harder than anything covered by HL maths. Making it easier just because some students find it difficult is absolutely stupid.

The bonus points may be a bit unfair but can you think of another way of encouraging students to take the subject at higher level? Much higher percentages sit higher level in most, if not all other subjects.

The Pharmacist on the Moon

MeltyButter wrote: »

In all seriousness: No such thing as "no aptitude for maths"; only "no aptitude for working" - in other words, laziness.

do you actually realise how ridiculous a statement this is? as mentioned already some people just don't understand maths but that doesn't make them lazy. In fact there are numerous examples of people in my course(Pharmacy) who didn't do honours maths and i can assure you that they are far from lazy.

Niall8100

No you can't get 625 points. Say if you get 580 points and HL maths is one of your subjects, they'll just give you 20 of the 25 bonus points to bring you to 600. You can't get more. That's what the principal of my school said anyway

finality

Niall8100 wrote: »

No you can't get 625 points. Say if you get 580 points and HL maths is one of your subjects, they'll just give you 20 of the 25 bonus points to bring you to 600. You can't get more. That's what the principal of my school said anyway

Nope, you can get 625 your principal is wrong.

Togepi

Yeah 625 points is definitely the new max. I hope people don't start saying they got 725 or 825 this year. :cool:

Chris68

Niall8100 wrote: »

No you can't get 625 points. Say if you get 580 points and HL maths is one of your subjects, they'll just give you 20 of the 25 bonus points to bring you to 600. You can't get more. That's what the principal of my school said anyway

Your principal is wrong. http://www2.cao.ie/schools_corr/sep_2011/BonusPointsMathsWithExamples.pdf

validusername1

finality wrote: »

I don't think HL maths is too difficult at all. Making it easier just because some students find it difficult is absolutely stupid.

Yeah well difficulty depends on the person. That's your opinion. Considering the high level of fails at HL maths, I think it's safe to assume that quite a lot find it too difficult. And again, it's just your opinion that it's stupid to ease the course.. Mine is that it makes sense. No need to patronise.

finality wrote: »

The bonus points may be a bit unfair but can you think of another way of encouraging students to take the subject at higher level? Much higher percentages sit higher level in most, if not all other subjects.

Just because there's not many other ways to give people an incentive to do HL Maths doesn't take away from the fact that the current way unfair. Imo, that should be priority - fairness. Also, I don't really see why it's so important for people to do HL Maths in the first place or to even excel at Maths in general, considering that the majority don't even go on to do further study in Maths. I understand that Maths is an important life skill, but the majority of LC maths serves no purpose besides for the exam.. After school, if a person is not doing further study in maths or engineering, they are never going to have to solve things like ''Show that kx – t is a factor of 3 3 2 2 2 k x − k tx + ktx − t where k and t are non-zero real constants'' ever again. And if someone is gonna study those things, surely they'd be doing HL maths regardless of these bonus points.

finality

validusername1 wrote: »

Yeah well difficulty depends on the person. That's your opinion. Considering the high level of fails at HL maths, I think it's safe to assume that quite a lot find it too difficult. And again, it's just your opinion that it's stupid to ease the course.. Mine is that it makes sense. No need to patronise.

I wasn't being patronizing. Second level maths in Ireland is already easier than in other countries. I don't want to see Ireland's second level education become even weaker internationally, but it looks like that's what's happening with project maths.

Just because there's not many other ways to give people an incentive to do HL Maths doesn't take away from the fact that the current way unfair. Imo, that should be priority - fairness. Also, I don't really see why it's so important for people to do HL Maths in the first place or to even excel at Maths in general, considering that the majority don't even go on to do further study in Maths. I understand that Maths is an important life skill, but the majority of LC maths serves no purpose besides for the exam.. After school, if a person is not doing further study in maths or engineering, they are never going to have to solve things like ''Show that kx – t is a factor of 3 3 2 2 2 k x − k tx + ktx − t where k and t are non-zero real constants'' ever again. And if someone is gonna study those things, surely they'd be doing HL maths regardless of these bonus points.

Maths is a part of a lot of university courses. And if someone sticks with higher level maths they may discover they really enjoy it and decide to do something maths-related in college.
But I actually agree with you here, trying to force students to keep on higher level maths if they have absolutely no interest in pursuing something maths-related after school is quite pointless. But then, forcing students to study Irish at leaving cert level is pointless too. It seems our education system is all about appearances- keep Irish compulsory, it'll look like people can actually speak it. Get more people to study higher level maths, it'll look like Irish students are better at maths.

Naomi00

MeltyButter wrote: »

Yeah we should keep telling everyone that they're special on the inside and just let them do all of the courses that they're not qualified to do.

In all seriousness: No such thing as "no aptitude for maths"; only "no aptitude for working" - in other words, laziness.

Ok so, if the extra 25 points were for higher level Irish would you have the same opinion?


I'm pretty sure that if that was the case there would be plenty of people complaining that they have no aptitude for languages and it's not fair etc..

Zaffy

partyatmygaff wrote: »

You don't need HL Maths for a lot of high points courses. Medicine, Pharmacy, Dental Science, Law and many other high points courses don't actually require HL Maths but due to the bonus points it's become almost essential for the CAO.

TBH, it might not be a requirement to have High Maths, but I know the courses would much prefer you if they don't have to teach you stuff which is taught in HL maths.

validusername1 wrote: »

The course needs to change. It is a ridiculous level of difficulty for students who may not even/probably won't need it ever again!

They are changing the course, project maths.

validusername1 wrote: »

It's also not fair to people who excel at other subjects. Hypothetically, let's say I'm amazing at Irish. Why can I not get bonus points for being great at that but somebody else will get bonus points for being great at Maths!? It just makes no sense at all.
/Rant over.

That's being introduced next year, for the current 5th years going into 6th year.

Also, maths is required for a successful economy, irish isn't.

iluvgreenday246

To be honest i really think that the bunus points thing is justified. The thing that would have pushed most people away from honours maths is the time that they would have had to spend on it to get a high grade when it was only worth the same amount of points to them as an 'easy' subject like biology or whatever. But now with this extra 25 points people can justify spending that extra time every night on maths. I agree its not fair to reward the person who is quite simply just a maths genius and ignore someone whose gone to france every summer looking for a high grade in french. In all fairness why dont they introduce the extra 25 points for all the core subjects?

Dwellingdweller

finality wrote: »

Um, they have changed the course? And I don't think HL maths is too difficult at all, it's much easier than the equivalent in other countries. Ireland tends to do quite badly in international second level maths Olympiads because of the fact that our syllabus is inferior to other countries. I have a book that's used to help students prepare for maths Olympiads and the material in it is much, much harder than anything covered by HL maths. Making it easier just because some students find it difficult is absolutely stupid.

The bonus points may be a bit unfair but can you think of another way of encouraging students to take the subject at higher level? Much higher percentages sit higher level in most, if not all other subjects.

That's interesting, I was speaking to a guy finishing his PhD in pure Mathematics in NUIG a few weeks ago (he was from Brazil), and he said that Ireland's honours maths syllabus was a good deal harder than most 'higher level' syllabii in other countries. Just something to consider. He did the equivalent of higher level maths for his school leaving exam in Brazil, and he said that the demands placed on HL students in Ireland in the Leaving are much higher than in many other countries.

OneOfThem Stumbled

MeltyButter wrote: »

Yeah we should keep telling everyone that they're special on the inside and just let them do all of the courses that they're not qualified to do.

Such as Maths, Engineering, a couple of Economics courses, and em.. theoretical physics?

I cannot think of any other course where maths is a defining requisite. Not to take away from the importance of maths, but, you know, it's just maths. :pac:

validusername1

Zaffy wrote: »

Also, maths is required for a successful economy, irish isn't.

I clearly said ''hypothetically'' when I used Irish as an example. Also, if you read on, you'd see that I said ''I understand that Maths is an important life skill, but the majority of LC maths serves no purpose besides for the exam.. After school, if a person is not doing further study in maths or engineering, they are never going to have to solve things like ''Show that kx – t is a factor of 3 3 2 2 2 k x − k tx + ktx − t where k and t are non-zero real constants'' ever again.'' So I don't know why I should bother repeating myself? You're trying to say that questions like ''Show that kx – t is a factor of 3 3 2 2 2 k x − k tx + ktx − t where k and t are non-zero real constants'' are needed for a successful economy? Ha, right whatever ya say :rolleyes: