Your internet content will be recorded.

Capt'n Midnight

Since most of our ISP's are UK owned and most of our traffic to Europe goes via the UK this may be of interest. Many "Irish" ISP's can and do route internal Irish traffic through equipment based in the UK.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/14/web_super_snoop_law_ccdp_theresa_may/

Home Secretary Theresa May confirmed this morning that under existing UK laws her department receives half a million requests to intercept communications data in the country every year. Later today, the Home Office will unveil its plans to greatly increase the amount of internet communications information kept on file in the UK, which will grant the police, spooks and the taxman - among others - the power to access such comms information.

Those authorities will be able to monitor internet traffic of everyone in Blighty (or whose communications pass through) to see who's contacting whom and when - and all of this can be done without the need for a warrant, according to the upcoming draft bill that the Home Secretary will release later today.

However if the security services or other appropriate parties wish to monitor the actual content of email or other communication over the internet, a warrant from a judge would be required.

The burden of retaining such data will be handed to internet service providers, who will be forced to log every website visit, as well as any access made by its customers to email accounts, Facebook and difficult-to-tap tech like peer-to-peer communications such as Skype for a minimum of 12 months.

ISPs will, according to the Guardian, be handed a "blank cheque" from the Home Office, which has insisted that the cost to the taxpayer will be substantially less than the previous Labour government's abandoned £2bn Interception Modernisation Programme (IMP).

seamus

So they'll have to log the point-to-point information (i.e. who is accessing and the address that they're accessing), but actual content requires a legal warrant.

In reality this isn't that much different from telephony where service providers already log the details of your call, but if they want to monitor the content, they require a warrant.

biko

I don't need that to know what you guys are browsing for*



*from exhaustive research you see

Shryke

Tor.

kippy

Shryke wrote: »

Tor.

Why would you use that, wouldn't it be a very big sign saying "Investigate me further"
?

danniemcq

use a neighbours unprotected wifi

christmas2012

Will they bring that bill into ireland anytime soon do you think?

Best username ever

The mobile carriers here keep every text you send for 5 years I think

Biggins

kippy wrote: »

Why would you use that, wouldn't it be a very big sign saying "Investigate me further"
?

The server sees a different I.P. address, not the fact that you might be using tor.
There is a misunderstanding over the use of it.

There is a server in Dublin that the government maintains that now records all data flow for two years anyway.
it has been up and running storing this information for over a year and a half not at least.

Scioch

kippy wrote: »

Why would you use that, wouldn't it be a very big sign saying "Investigate me further"
?

Investigate who further ? :cool:

puffishoes

kippy wrote: »

Why would you use that, wouldn't it be a very big sign saying "Investigate me further"
?

If they decide to investigate every bit of encrypted traffic they could spend a very long time chasing OAP's to betfair.

I would imagine if they're not requested for specific users data they won't be looking at it. Have you any idea how much it costs to hire a security analyst to sit down 24/7 to watch traffic? have you any idea how many you would require to do this for the uk and ireland?

The ISP would be out of buisness tomorrow. ISP's don't really give two hoots what you're doing as long as you pay your bill. the same way meteor or vodafone don't care if your using their phone services to plot blowing up obama as long as you pay your bill.

Scioch

puffishoes wrote: »

If they decide to investigate every bit of encrypted traffic they could spend a very long time chasing OAP's to betfair.

I would imagine if they're not requested for specific users data they won't be looking at it. Have you any idea how much it costs to hire a security analyst to sit down 24/7 to watch traffic? have you any idea how many you would require to do this for the uk and ireland?

The ISP would be out of buisness tomorrow. ISP's don't really give two hoots what you're doing as long as you pay your bill. the same way meteor or vodafone don't care if your using their phone services to plot blowing up obama as long as you pay your bill.

Thought I read somewhere though that the Home Office would be footing the bill not ISP's.

puffishoes

Biggins wrote: »

The server sees a different I.P. address, not the fact that you might be using tor.
There is a misunderstanding over the use of it.

There is a server in Dublin that the government maintains that now records all data flow for five years anyway.
it has been up and running storing this information for over a year and a half not at least.

it does? what does it monitor? router's in inex? sounds a bit like BS to me. very costly and difficult to setup.

considering they can't link the SW with for example the death's and marriges offices etc etc the above would seem very unlikley and almost impossible

puffishoes

LordSmeg wrote: »

Thought I read somewhere though that the Home Office would be footing the bill not ISP's.

foot the bill of what?

a few million CSO's on anything from 60-100k?

The renting purchasing of buildings to house the CSO's?

Considering they won't hire a nurse, it's not likely.

Bad Panda

Best username ever wrote: »

The mobile carriers here keep every text you send for 5 years I think

Ha! That's a complete bull!!

That means they'd collectively be storing 500 billion texts! Go back to bed!

nelly17

Would they not need to set up Deep Packet Inspection devices independantly of whats allready set up as current ISP infristructure is not designed to monitor but just to pass traffic.

There would be a massive cost to this - And the storage of all this data on a massive scale.

Scioch

puffishoes wrote: »

foot the bill of what?

a few million CSO's on anything from 60-100k?

The renting purchasing of buildings to house the CSO's?

Considering they won't hire a nurse, it's not likely.

The cost of any investigation. The ISP's wont be shouldering the cost so they will comply with whatever the Home Office wants. Yeah they wont be monitoring everyone 24/7 but not because it will bankrupt the ISP's.

puffishoes

LordSmeg wrote: »

The cost of any investigation. The ISP's wont be shouldering the cost so they will comply with whatever the Home Office wants. Yeah they wont be monitoring everyone 24/7 but not because it will bankrupt the ISP's.

for individual investigation yes there's little or no cost. my point was about the monitoring. As I said if they won't pay that much for a nurse there not going to pay it for PFY to sit there. pointless exercise.

I was expecting to see rtdh as the OP

Doylers

Bad Panda wrote: »

Ha! That's a complete bull!!

That means they'd collectively be storing 500 billion texts! Go back to bed!

And thats just the texts I send, mind boggling

Biggins

puffishoes wrote: »

it does? what does it monitor? router's in inex? sounds a bit like BS to me. very costly and difficult to setup.

considering they can't link the SW with for example the death's and marriges offices etc etc the above would seem very unlikley and almost impossible

From 2008 (long article for those interested):

By the end of March 2008, the Irish Government will begin mass digital surveillance, noting when we log on and log off the internet, as well as every email we send and who we send it to. We have entered into a new democratic state where our entire digital footprint is recorded and stored for up to two years by our internet service providers (ISPs).

Source: http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/in-a-state-of-surveillance-1301589.html

Also boards.ie already touched upon this topic: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055536179

---

Short version: Its come about due to a EU directive some time ago.
Systems have been up and running monitoring for some time now.

Best username ever

Doylers wrote: »

And thats just the texts I send, mind boggling

They definitely keep texts of some kind, how do they pull out texts and email against someone during a court case?

puffishoes

Biggins wrote: »

From 2008 (long article for those interested):



Source: http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/in-a-state-of-surveillance-1301589.html

Also boards.ie already touched upon this topic: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055536179

---

Short version: Its come about due to a EU directive some time ago.
Systems have been up and running monitoring for some time now.

How do they monitor for example someone using packet exchange? who route everything through the UK?

Untill I see the hardware, it's horse.

puffishoes

Biggins wrote: »

From 2008 (long article for those interested):



Source: http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/in-a-state-of-surveillance-1301589.html

Also boards.ie already touched upon this topic: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055536179

---

Short version: Its come about due to a EU directive some time ago.
Systems have been up and running monitoring for some time now.

plus "login" and "off" the internet what does that even mean? obtain a dhcp lease? dial a modem? open a page? no wonder the country has trouble with understanding "always on"

login/logoff sigh..

oxo_

Use an encrypted high speed VPN, set it up on your router so all traffic passes through it.
People are entitled to their privacy and a minority pedo or criminal element shouldn't be used as a lazy excuse to thrust draconian snooping laws onto everyone else.

seamus

Best username ever wrote: »

They definitely keep texts of some kind, how do they pull out texts and email against someone during a court case?

Email and texts are usually taken from someone's device by the Gardai when they're investigating.

Your service provider doesn't log the content of your texts, as this would be in contravention of the data protection act. They only record the date and the recipient.

Biggins

puffishoes wrote: »

How do they monitor for example someone using packet exchange? who route everything through the UK?

Untill I see the hardware, it's horse.

Believe what you wish to.
There was an Irish article years ago which mentioned where the Irish server was then approximately (in Dublin but they weren't allowed say exactly) and provided a camera picture of it - and this was before the EU directive which now covers this topic.

In short, there is now an EU directive that insists that ISP's if not actual government, now maintain and record information relating to data packet flow for a period depending on the individual country.

Yesterday morning (14th December 2005) the European Parliament passed a Directive mandating member states to introduce surveillance of all European citizens in their daily lives.

The Directive mandates that EU member states, including Ireland, are to track the location of all mobile phones, all calls made from land lines and mobile phones, as well as all information on individuals’ internet and email usage. This will include keeping records of all web sites visited, the senders and recipients of all emails and the use of any other Internet Protocol (IP) based communication such as the increasingly popular Voice over IP (VoIP) phone providers such as Skype.

Ireland has already had surveillance of this kind for some years. The existing rules required details of telephone use and mobile phone location to be stored for three years. This was initially introduced in secret in 2002, and was placed on a statutory basis only this year, by way of a last-minute amendment to pending legislation. This amendment was introduced without prior warning or consultation, and rushed through with little debate.

However, this European law goes further. It extends monitoring to cover all internet use. It will require Internet service providers to record details of every email you send and every web page you visit. The Directive requires this information to be kept for a minimum of 6 months, but allows national governments to adopt longer periods if they wish. The Irish Government already requires your telephone records to be held for 3 years and seems set to apply the same to these new areas.

In addition, this law, since it was adopted in Europe, is immune from challenge under our Constitution. No Irish judge will be able to decide whether this law amounts to a breach of the constitutional right to privacy. Digital Rights Ireland is concerned that our Constitutional rights can be evaded so easily.

http://www.digitalrights.ie/2005/12/15/data-retention-directive-passed/

Protection against data retention
Suggestions - but cannot verify as to their effectiveness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention#Protection_against_data_retention

puffishoes

I understand you read the articles.

I just don't belive it..

You can't place a "server" somewhere and record _all_ the data from all ISP's

currently the way Ireland is it's physically impossible.

So _Irish_ ISP's may be asked to record the distrubtion of domestic IP's from their allocation and dates/times of that, which is very possible.

All this information says you had an IP from a given ISP at a given time. nothing else.

af_thefragile

So if my ISP is UK owned, why the heck can't I watch BBC iplayer??!!!!! :mad:

Biggins

puffishoes wrote: »

I understand you read the articles.

I just don't belive it..

You can't place a "server" somewhere and record _all_ the data from all ISP's

currently the way Ireland is it's physically impossible.

So _Irish_ ISP's may be asked to record the distrubtion of domestic IP's from their allocation and dates/times of that, which is very possible.

All this information says you had an IP from a given ISP at a given time. nothing else.

I did NOT say a server was recording all ISP's data - your totally misreading that.
In its infancy and the government was playing catch-up (whats new!) in regard to the internet and monitoring Irish use, they tried to maintain a central system in Dublin which tried to monitor Irish usage (when it was much less in the early years).
...With the passing of the later EU directive, this burden was somewhat eased and required service providers to do it for them - for which they could then access this information after following certain procedures.

puffishoes

Biggins wrote: »

I did NOT say a server was recording all ISP's data - your totally misreading that.
In its infancy and the government was playing catch-up (whats new!) in regard to the internet and monitoring Irish use, they tried to maintain a central system in Dublin which tried to monitor Irish usage (when it was much less in the early years).
...With the passing of the later EU directive, this burden was somewhat eased and required service providers to do it for them - for which they could then access this information after following certain procedures.

Right, so we don't currently record all data flow. which is what you stated at the start.

I'm glad we cleared that up

ScumLord

Isn't all this data collected anyway? Computers log just about everything you do.

puffishoes wrote: »

I would imagine if they're not requested for specific users data they won't be looking at it. Have you any idea how much it costs to hire a security analyst to sit down 24/7 to watch traffic? have you any idea how many you would require to do this for the uk and ireland?

This won't be necessary, just look what google can do and there's no one person sitting down going through emails to see what ads to show you.

Biggins

puffishoes wrote: »

All this information says you had an IP from a given ISP at a given time. nothing else.

Thats my point to an earlier poster about TOR who said:

Why would you use that, wouldn't it be a very big sign saying "Investigate me further"
?

The monitoring of data packet flow is disguised to some extent with its use - it all about I.P.'s and moving data - not necessarily the software your using.

puffishoes

af_thefragile wrote: »

So if my ISP is UK owned, why the heck can't I watch BBC iplayer??!!!!! :mad:

probably because the ripe allocation of address's they give out to you are not in uk but part of a IE allocation if you're in ireland

puffishoes

ScumLord wrote: »

This won't be necessary, just look what google can do and there's no one person sitting down going through emails to see what ads to show you.

The irish gubberment ain't google.

google can get an empty car to pass it's driving test. we have a school teacher running the country. I think you'll find google are slightly ahead of the game

Biggins

puffishoes wrote: »

Right, so we don't currently record all data flow. which is what you stated at the start.

I'm glad we cleared that up

*sigh*

Are you trying to be argumentative or just don't get it?

We tried at one stage to record all data years ago direct (a monumental headache!).
With the EU directive, that problem was eased.
Got it now?

puffishoes

Biggins wrote: »

*sigh*

Are you trying to be argumentative or just don't get it?

We tried at one stage to record all data years ago direct (a monumental headache!).
With the EU directive, that problem was eased.
Got it now?

my point was at the start.

we don't do it, we can't do it.

then come's a load of url's to say we do, one written by a "log on and off" person.

and now clarification from same poster we don't it.

Yes, crystal fcking clear.

ScumLord

puffishoes wrote: »

The irish gubberment ain't google.

google can get an empty car to pass it's driving test. we have a school teacher running the country. I think you'll find google are slightly ahead of the game

I wouldn't be at all surprised if google were selling their search engines for these kind of tasks.

puffishoes

ScumLord wrote: »

I wouldn't be at all surprised if google were selling their search engines for these kind of tasks.

They do sell their search engine.

But you can give an idiot any tool you like, he's still an idiot.

to clarifiy a bit more.

it doesn't matter what google do. most of the info google has has been given by you eithier knowlly or unknowingly.

if data is encrypted eithier via ssh tunnels VPN etc it doesn't matter what tool they use it's very difficult to decypher. people who are "up to no good" for the most part know how to get around this and will.

Biggins

puffishoes wrote: »

They do sell their search engine.

But you can give an idiot any tool you like, he's still an idiot.

...And we have plenty of them in government office!
Just look at the tool which rushed through the Irish internet right legislation and now has to have it re-appraised!

...And this type of fool might have access to personal data?

I shudder!

cadaliac

puffishoes wrote: »

my point was at the start.

we don't do it, we can't do it.

then come's a load of url's to say we do, one written by a "log on and off" person.

and now clarification from same poster we don't it.

Yes, crystal fcking clear.

Well to be fair, we can do it if we wanted. Proxy servers do it for industry. ISP's are no different. Anyway, it would be source and destination, as you said, and not packet data.
The log on and off....you know exactly what they mean.

ScumLord

puffishoes wrote: »

They do sell their search engine.

But you can give an idiot any tool you like, he's still an idiot.

The idiot won't be doing anything other than signing a check at the end of the month he won't be using these tools himself, google more than likely wouldn't let them.

it doesn't matter what google do. most of the info google has has been given by you eithier knowlly or unknowingly.

That's not what I'm talking about. The government has the legal access to their own data. They hand that data over to google, google uses their search engine to trawl through it and send the results to the government. Google don't need to access their own data stores at all.

puffishoes

ScumLord wrote: »

The idiot won't be doing anything other than signing a check at the end of the month he won't be using these tools himself, google more than likely wouldn't let them.


That's not what I'm talking about. The government has the legal access to their own data. They hand that data over to google, google uses their search engine to trawl through it and send the results to the government. Google don't need to access their own data stores at all.

At this point I don't really know what you're talking about.

The goverment can;t give google, something it doesn't have.

e.g. most ISP's "data flow" data, so it can't give anything to "google to deh searching on"

It's as simple as this should the guarda require information from an ISP it can go and request that. the ISP's currently don't keep all the "flow" they have IP's mapped to customer's

so guarda john can say give me the details of 1.1.1.1 and they can provide that this was allocated to ryan clown on a certain date at a certain time.

there's nothing gogle or any software can do to add to this right now because the country is not setup to do it _now_ e.g. there's no secret box anywhere proxying/colelcting data on ISP's based on these shores.

ScumLord

puffishoes wrote: »

The goverment can;t give google, something it doesn't have.

They have the legal right to that data, it is essentially their data and no one can stop them accessing it in any way they see fit.

Also look at post 9.

puffishoes

ScumLord wrote: »

They have the legal right to that data, it is essentially their data and no one can stop them accessing it in any way they see fit.

Also look at post 9.

One last time.

the ISP's don't have data. do not have, don't keep.

they can request the data ISP does keep and has been asked to keep.

but right _now_ they don't.

puffishoes

ScumLord wrote: »

Also look at post 9.

we all ready established post 9 was uhm, not really a secret box recording data flow.

as it's currently _impossible_

cadaliac

ScumLord wrote: »

They have the legal right to that data, it is essentially their data and no one can stop them accessing it in any way they see fit.

Also look at post 9.

Maybe so but I think the point that puffishoes is making is that the actual data - i.e. content of browsed information etc. is a lot more difficult to obtain with regard to resources.
I agree that the level of interpretation of you data is where it is at. If "they" want to get at your data it is actually easy enough, unless you hide it.
This scaremongering that "big brother" is watching you is utter clap trap though.
They will launch a massive campain and it will flop when they see how much it will cost. Maybe Michael Martin will want another ""report" :rolleyes:

puffishoes

We don't have fiber to the home

There's still parts of the country that cannot get "broadband" and we're talking about spending millions and millions on infrastructure that's not required.

only in ireland has never been so apt.

ScumLord

cadaliac wrote: »

Maybe so but I think the point that puffishoes is making is that the actual data - i.e. content of browsed information etc. is a lot more difficult to obtain with regard to resources.

But the government doesn't need any resources as such, they simply get a company that does have the resources to do it for them. The English and Americans have been at this for years so the companies that can do this are out there. All they need is access to the ISPs which the government can make happen.

Gummy Panda

bluewolf wrote: »

I was expecting to see rtdh as the OP

He burned his modem in a fit of panic

puffishoes

ScumLord wrote: »

But the government doesn't need any resources as such,

It needs a lot of money for a start.

We're currently bankrupt.

and do not need this. We can at the moment catch peddalrs of child porn if they're very stupid.

That's the most useful part of it. if they're clever which a lot of them are nothing now untill quantam computing is really with us and even then we'll probably have moved on. will it be in anyway useful.

The internet is a public network and should be left that way.

China we're not and do not want to be.