The travelling doctor

locum-motion

Maybe this is terribly naive of me but anyway, here goes:

If you're only being paid for 8-9 hours a day, or 40-45 hours a week, or whatever, and are not being paid for working overtime, why do you not simply put on your coat and walk out the door when your 8 (or whatever) hours are up?

"Because there's patients waiting!" is probably what you'll say.

I say that's not your problem. Let the doc who comes on duty after you see to them.

"But there is no doc coming on duty after me!" is probably what you'll say.

Once again, not your problem. Let the HSE employ another doctor to come on duty after you. If everyone stops working these crazy hours everyone always complains about, then they'll just fcuking have to employ more doctors, won't they?

sillymoo

Cheers for clearing up the confusion!

opinion guy

locum-motion wrote: »

Maybe this is terribly naive of me but anyway, here goes:

If you're only being paid for 8-9 hours a day, or 40-45 hours a week, or whatever, and are not being paid for working overtime, why do you not simply put on your coat and walk out the door when your 8 (or whatever) hours are up?

"Because there's patients waiting!" is probably what you'll say.

I say that's not your problem. Let the doc who comes on duty after you see to them.

"But there is no doc coming on duty after me!" is probably what you'll say.

Once again, not your problem. Let the HSE employ another doctor to come on duty after you. If everyone stops working these crazy hours everyone always complains about, then they'll just fcuking have to employ more doctors, won't they?

Well what if its not patients waiting - what if its important jobs need doing that will only add to tomorrows workload if you dont' do it today.

I agree with you - it is managements fault - but its not management who find themselves in the coroners court if you make a mistake.

Exhibit A:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tears-for-drugs-mixup-patient-2337870.html

Worth reading the entire article but here is an extract:

Breaking into tears, Dr Murphy said it had been her seventh 13-hour shift in a row and she was tired. Asked by the coroner why she had worked so many long hours, she said she thought it was due to staff shortages.

locum-motion

opinion guy wrote: »

Well what if its not patients waiting - what if its important jobs need doing that will only add to tomorrows workload if you dont' do it today.

I agree with you - it is managements fault - but its not management who find themselves in the coroners court if you make a mistake.

Exhibit A:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tears-for-drugs-mixup-patient-2337870.html

Worth reading the entire article but here is an extract:

All the more reason for you NOT to do those shifts. You can't make a mistake if you're home in bed getting some much needed sleep!

opinion guy

locum-motion wrote: »

All the more reason for you NOT to do those shifts. You can't make a mistake if you're home in bed getting some much needed sleep!

Have you even read this thread ?

Here is what happens when you take a sick day:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80658216&postcount=74

Threats of reporting to medical council. What do you think will happen if you say i'm not staying in because I'm tired when you've been scheduled for a 36hour shift ??

Are you being funny, trolling, or making some kind of obtuse point ?

SleepDoc

opinion guy wrote: »

Have you even read this thread ?

Here is what happens when you take a sick day:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80658216&postcount=74

Threats of reporting to medical council. What do you think will happen if you say i'm not staying in because I'm tired when you've been scheduled for a 36hour shift ??

Are you being funny, trolling, or making some kind of obtuse point ?

It's a reasonable point. Fu*k management, your own health comes first.

opinion guy

SleepDoc wrote: »

It's a reasonable point. Fu*k management, your own health comes first.

Oh it is what I would do.

But reality is most nchd's are scared to do so because of workplace bullying by managment and/or consultants, threats of being reported to the medical council, threats of not getting reference letters and so on. Which surely you and locum should be well aware of, no ?

locum-motion

opinion guy wrote: »

Have you even read this thread ?

Here is what happens when you take a sick day:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80658216&postcount=74

Threats of reporting to medical council. What do you think will happen if you say i'm not staying in because I'm tired when you've been scheduled for a 36hour shift ??

Are you being funny, trolling, or making some kind of obtuse point ?

Yes I have read this thread, and no I'm not being funny or trolling. Making a point? Well yes, maybe I am, but I don't know if it's an obtuse one or not. (IIRC, the word 'obtuse' means 'greater than 45 degrees but less than 90'. Not sure how one applies that to a point!)

This thread and others are full of complaints about the number of hours NCHDs "have to" work, and complaints about not being paid for overtime. If every single NCHD in the country were to say "I'm rostered/contracted/employed/paid to do x hours a week. That's how many I shall do", then the problem would stop. Immediately. Granted, there'd be chaos for a while, but the net result would be that the HSE would be forced to actually employ sufficient doctors to have all the hours in all the hospitals covered, instead of doing what they now do which is employ 50% of the required number and force them to work 80 hours a week for 40 hours pay (or whatever the actual numbers are).

opinion guy

locum-motion wrote: »

(IIRC, the word 'obtuse' means 'greater than 45 degrees but less than 90'. Not sure how one applies that to a point!)

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/obtuse
:P

Some of those dictionary meanings are a bit more negative than I intended - I meant it in the sense 'blunt' - which is covered in the definitions.
Have you never heard it used this way ?

This thread and others are full of complaints about the number of hours NCHDs "have to" work, and complaints about not being paid for overtime. If every single NCHD in the country were to say "I'm rostered/contracted/employed/paid to do x hours a week. That's how many I shall do", then the problem would stop. Immediately. Granted, there'd be chaos for a while, but the net result would be that the HSE would be forced to actually employ sufficient doctors to have all the hours in all the hospitals covered, instead of doing what they now do which is employ 50% of the required number and force them to work 80 hours a week for 40 hours pay (or whatever the actual numbers are).

I agree. But are you not hearing me - they are afraid to do so due to inbuilt bullying and intimidation in the system.

locum-motion

opinion guy wrote: »

...I agree. But are you not hearing me - they are afraid to do so due to inbuilt bullying and intimidation in the system.

Which is why I said all the NCHDs would have to do it. Also, I did say at the beginningof my post that it was probably a bit naive to think that this could actually happen.

Dr.NickRiviera

dissed doc wrote: »

I think this contrasts well with how things are currently going. No amount of pep-talk management-speak can adjust reality!;)

Challenge of reintegrating into the HSE = the HSE will drain my very lifeforce but I will attempt to slow the process down, futile as it is.
Will be very interesting = I am currently positive and open-minded. This will change within a few short months.
Genuine efforts into resolving the issues HSE have faced = genuine efforts into resolving the matter of healthcare and therefore finally trying to dispense with it altogether
Firm step in the right direction = as they trash contracts and employment safety rights, no-one is safe as they will use the Labour Court to eventually get slave labour. And I know this having worked for free, now.


I mean no offence

None taken mate! I was warned from the get go but you always have to try to look at the bright side of life regardless of how dismal it may be.

With regards to the last few comments above, we are not irish and at the end of the day we feel insecure and thus allow ourselves to be bullied and abused. As an irish graduate I find that I stand up for myself way more than my foreign trained counterparts do. You can't magically remove this insecurity.

As for all of us putting our coats on at 4 or 5pm and leaving the hospital. I'd love to see you even think about that while scrubbed and midway into a complicated 5 hours surgery. It isn't gonna happen because we don't operate like that. (no pun intended)

his_dudeness

locum-motion wrote: »

Which is why I said all the NCHDs would have to do it. Also, I did say at the beginningof my post that it was probably a bit naive to think that this could actually happen.

If only there was a union for us to join....

There is a wide variety of doctor in Ireland unfortunately, ranging from those who want to combine the good training and experience that can be gotten from working in Ireland and combining it with a sensible work-life balance, to those that are only interested in making money and are more than happy to clock up as much hours of onsite work as possible. Many of these that I have encountered are doing this to set themselves up comfortably before returning home to their native countries to set up independent practice.

For all NCHDs to get organised, we need everyone to agree that it's not right and I would think that there are a number of doctors around who are happy with their take-home packet and are letting that outweigh the health side.

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

.....As for all of us putting our coats on at 4 or 5pm and leaving the hospital. I'd love to see you even think about that while scrubbed and midway into a complicated 5 hours surgery. It isn't gonna happen because we don't operate like that. (no pun intended).....

I have heard anecdotes of that happening in other countries (Oz), and in fairness, why shouldn't it. Scrub nurses change over regularly during long procedures, and appropriate scheduling of theatre lists would mean that you wouldn't start a "5 hour surgery" at the end of the day when people are supposed to leave.

chanste

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/revealed-266m-topups-are-paid-out-to-hse-staff-3327220.html

This is from today's Sunday Indo. It really must have been a slow news day that they come up with this ****. Among the bullet points of bad things happening is that doctors somewhere somehow are getting paid for some overtime. I mean do they really begrudge someone who does an NCHDs hours their bloody pay.

I'm venting because by the time I'm working in the HSE they will probably expect me to pay them for the privilege and public opinion will no doubt reflect that I'm still getting an awesome deal.

Anthony16

Im generally very anti public sector myself but not when it comes to NCHDs as i know the full facts from reading accounts on this website.Thing is,the general public doesnt know u guys are doing all that overtime for free and working those crazy shifts,so what else can they think?
Nurses,teachers and all those dunces in the quangos have a great time at the expense of blind and disabled people.The reason being,the power of the union leaders that doctors for some reason dont have.

chanste wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/revealed-266m-topups-are-paid-out-to-hse-staff-3327220.html

This is from today's Sunday Indo. It really must have been a slow news day that they come up with this ****. Among the bullet points of bad things happening is that doctors somewhere somehow are getting paid for some overtime. I mean do they really begrudge someone who does an NCHDs hours their bloody pay.

I'm venting because by the time I'm working in the HSE they will probably expect me to pay them for the privilege and public opinion will no doubt reflect that I'm still getting an awesome deal.

take everything

chanste wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/revealed-266m-topups-are-paid-out-to-hse-staff-3327220.html

This is from today's Sunday Indo. It really must have been a slow news day that they come up with this ****. Among the bullet points of bad things happening is that doctors somewhere somehow are getting paid for some overtime. I mean do they really begrudge someone who does an NCHDs hours their bloody pay.

I'm venting because by the time I'm working in the HSE they will probably expect me to pay them for the privilege and public opinion will no doubt reflect that I'm still getting an awesome deal.

Read that as well.
No mention of blatant breaches of contracts, like not paying living out allowance.
You can look forward to 3000 odd of your pay being kept Chanste. Even though you'll probably be signing the 2010 contract that explicitly details it.
And looking forward to the IMO doing nothing for you, member or not.

ThatDrGuy

Please guys, if you have a problem with the IMO - tell them.
imo@imo.ie is the email address. Let them know what your issues are ( they wont do anything to address them - they are not that kind of organisation) but enough negativity might at least let them think their salaries are threatened by declining membership to posture louder. If you aren't joining let them know why, if you are quitting, let them know.

Ryder

ThatDrGuy wrote: »

Please guys, if you have a problem with the IMO - tell them.
imo@imo.ie is the email address. Let them know what your issues are ( they wont do anything to address them - they are not that kind of organisation) but enough negativity might at least let them think their salaries are threatened by declining membership to posture louder. If you aren't joining let them know why, if you are quitting, let them know.

hey, am not sure if you are involved or not......but when I got the email a month ago about the boarding card 'plan', I constructively emailed the imo and said the money might be better spent on taking out advertising correcting some of the negative perception. I got a curt email back saying it was a great idea....what happened? Less than a third of the nchds completed it, and no publicity really.

It will be interesting to see how the inmo takes things

patrickowens1

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

Hi all,

As a returning Irish trained (international) medical graduate who was forced to work abroad due to lack of internship posts in Ireland (at the time) I would like to offer my experiences to any that may have an interest.

Whether its just out of curiosity or you genuinely want to hear about what its like to work outside Ireland (experience mainly of New Zealand/Australia), I am happy to share. Likewise your experiences working in the HSE would be warmly welcomed.

It's an exciting time for myself as the challenge of reintegrating into the HSE after gaining experience abroad will be very interesting. From what I gather it's an interesting time for all NCHDs as genuine efforts into resolving the issues the HSE have faced over the last few years although slow, remain a firm step in the right direction.

Look forward to some interesting discussions!

Regards,

Dr Nick

Hey Dr. Nick,

I'll be hopefully graduating this year and after intern year, I'm half thinking of heading to Nz/Oz to try get on a surgical scheme. Do you know much about the actual process of heading out there to work? Is it different depending on whether you aim to do a service job or if you have a training position in mind? I believe there are no AMC exams that need to be done by Irish graduates, but is there a period of supervised work to be done as part of this 'competent pathway' application process? I find the whole thing a bit confusing, despite lots of info available online. Any info on the practicalities of applying would be great.

Also, In terms of how easy it is to get on schemes in various place. For say, general surgery or ortho, is it prohibitively difficult for an Irish graduate to get a training post in Melbourne or sydney for example? Or is it more realistic to head for Nz or maybe Perth / Adelaide in Oz? Any recommendations??! I've heard a good few say that they preferred working in NZ to Oz and given that jobs are easier to come by there, it may be the best option? Auckland maybe?

Anyway, thanks a lot,
Hope you're getting re-accustomed to the grind here!

Pat.

nerrad01

patrickowens1 wrote: »

Hey Dr. Nick,

I'll be hopefully graduating this year and after intern year, I'm half thinking of heading to Nz/Oz to try get on a surgical scheme. Do you know much about the actual process of heading out there to work? Is it different depending on whether you aim to do a service job or if you have a training position in mind? I believe there are no AMC exams that need to be done by Irish graduates, but is there a period of supervised work to be done as part of this 'competent pathway' application process? I find the whole thing a bit confusing, despite lots of info available online. Any info on the practicalities of applying would be great.

Also, In terms of how easy it is to get on schemes in various place. For say, general surgery or ortho, is it prohibitively difficult for an Irish graduate to get a training post in Melbourne or sydney for example? Or is it more realistic to head for Nz or maybe Perth / Adelaide in Oz? Any recommendations??! I've heard a good few say that they preferred working in NZ to Oz and given that jobs are easier to come by there, it may be the best option? Auckland maybe?

Anyway, thanks a lot,
Hope you're getting re-accustomed to the grind here!

Pat.

id get onto the paging doctor forum, huge amount of info and advise available
http://pagingdr.net/forum/index.php?board=20.0

as far as im aware there is quite a big bottle neck in the Australian system for the more competitive specialties, but the criteria for selection is done on a points system and is very transparent as far as i can tell (also you wont be discriminated against for being an irish grad once you have the correct visa in place)

Edit: latest training position stats in oz
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/DF4270A0C4E8B812CA257864008017B5/

Anthony16

Junior doctors work hours are being on prime time tonight.Just thought id let people know

MrPain

Anthony16 wrote: »

Junior doctors work hours are being on prime time tonight.Just thought id let people know

Miriam O’Callaghan did a good job in dealing with both the HSE and IMO rep

Dr.NickRiviera

Just watching it now...

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10105190/

Just finished a 36 hour shift and did not get a wink of sleep for the entire time while being abused by superiors complaining why I am slow at seeing patients in a clinic...It's called self preservation! I'm trying hard not to kill anyone!

I have been rostered to work Friday 7am all the way through Monday 7pm in house and after complaining that I am concerned regarding my confidence in my ability to make sound clinical judgements working these hours I was told to 'Suck it up and stop being a wuss by my Spr'.

I hate this...I hate my life or in particular lack of it...I am looking forward to my partner leaving me because I've grown so bitter and resentful and have genuinely no interest in her at all anymore...Exhausted rage envelops me as I drift to sleep...feck...I should have got into politics...IMO CEO 25 million $$$$ package....zzzzzzzzz

j.mcdrmd

=

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

Just watching it now...

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10105190/

Just finished a 36 hour shift and did not get a wink of sleep for the entire time while being abused by superiors complaining why I am slow at seeing patients in a clinic...It's called self preservation! I'm trying hard not to kill anyone!

I have been rostered to work Friday 7am all the way through Monday 7pm in house and after complaining that I am concerned regarding my confidence in my ability to make sound clinical judgements working these hours I was told to 'Suck it up and stop being a wuss by my Spr'.

I hate this...I hate my life or in particular lack of it...I am looking forward to my partner leaving me because I've grown so bitter and resentful and have genuinely no interest in her at all anymore...Exhausted rage envelops me as I drift to sleep...feck...I should have got into politics...IMO CEO 25 million $$$$ package....zzzzzzzzz

The 25 million has been trimmed down, however, the resulting package still accounts for about €300 per person of IMO union subs for years. There is no other union who bleeds their members dry to pay 1 person as much as the IMO did that is true. The untruths of the HSE and the IMO were exposed tonight by Miriam imo, neither organisation can explain why they are continually abusing doctors and pretending that they support them. Give us time they said, but they have had years to resolve the problem and they have chosen not to do it. I can get you a link tomorrow about other unions finances if you like.

Please take heart though because you are not alone in this. Google Mumford & sons timshel.

The world is changing here, there is a power struggle, the old ways do not work anymore and the powers that be are shocked by that. They are desperately trying to keep up with you, not the other way around.

opinion guy

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

Just watching it now...

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10105190/

Just finished a 36 hour shift and did not get a wink of sleep for the entire time while being abused by superiors complaining why I am slow at seeing patients in a clinic...It's called self preservation! I'm trying hard not to kill anyone!

I have been rostered to work Friday 7am all the way through Monday 7pm in house and after complaining that I am concerned regarding my confidence in my ability to make sound clinical judgements working these hours I was told to 'Suck it up and stop being a wuss by my Spr'.

I hate this...I hate my life or in particular lack of it...I am looking forward to my partner leaving me because I've grown so bitter and resentful and have genuinely no interest in her at all anymore...Exhausted rage envelops me as I drift to sleep...feck...I should have got into politics...IMO CEO 25 million $$$$ package....zzzzzzzzz

You need to put your Spr in his/her place. Your duty is not to him/her - it is to the patient. Remind them of that.

take everything

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

Just watching it now...

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10105190/

Just finished a 36 hour shift and did not get a wink of sleep for the entire time while being abused by superiors complaining why I am slow at seeing patients in a clinic...It's called self preservation! I'm trying hard not to kill anyone!

I have been rostered to work Friday 7am all the way through Monday 7pm in house and after complaining that I am concerned regarding my confidence in my ability to make sound clinical judgements working these hours I was told to 'Suck it up and stop being a wuss by my Spr'.

I hate this...I hate my life or in particular lack of it...I am looking forward to my partner leaving me because I've grown so bitter and resentful and have genuinely no interest in her at all anymore...Exhausted rage envelops me as I drift to sleep...feck...I should have got into politics...IMO CEO 25 million $$$$ package....zzzzzzzzz

Those kind of hours are insane.
And that guff making you feel guilty about thinking (rightly) it's abnormal.
You need to see that for what it is.

Just do your bit, look after yourself, get what you want out of the job and don't let others guilt trip you.
You've nothing to be guilty about.

Dr.NickRiviera

Is it me or is the HSE literally crumbling before my eyes...Average of over 100 h/week and they already don't pay us for half of it and they (croke park agreement) propose to make further cuts?! Is it any reason why 70% of Irish graduates/NCHDs are fleeing the country?! What positive reason would keep any sane doctor actually in this system? I'm struggling to find any...

briankirby

Do u think it will be the case that its mainly foreign trained graduates who will be public consultants in the future?

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

Is it me or is the HSE literally crumbling before my eyes...Average of over 100 h/week and they already don't pay us for half of it and they (croke park agreement) propose to make further cuts?! Is it any reason why 70% of Irish graduates/NCHDs are fleeing the country?! What positive reason would keep any sane doctor actually in this system? I'm struggling to find any...

ThatDrGuy

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

Is it me or is the HSE literally crumbling before my eyes...Average of over 100 h/week and they already don't pay us for half of it and they (croke park agreement) propose to make further cuts?! Is it any reason why 70% of Irish graduates/NCHDs are fleeing the country?! What positive reason would keep any sane doctor actually in this system? I'm struggling to find any...

There is a sane doctor left in the system ? I think sanity and HSE employment are mutually exclusive. People always say X Y Z is the last straw. A year later you find them, even more personally destroyed but still labouring away at it. If I was the government I would cut medics pay by 90%, force 100 hour unpaid weeks and fit them all with exploding shock collars if they tried to leave the hospital. It would be an interesting experiment, I doubt it would result in much blow back. Would make an interesting paper too.

SleepDoc

ThatDrGuy wrote: »

There is a sane doctor left in the system ? I think sanity and HSE employment are mutually exclusive. People always say X Y Z is the last straw. A year later you find them, even more personally destroyed but still labouring away at it. If I was the government I would cut medics pay by 90%, force 100 hour unpaid weeks and fit them all with exploding shock collars if they tried to leave the hospital. It would be an interesting experiment, I doubt it would result in much blow back. Would make an interesting paper too.

Would have to agree.

Don't see anything changing from the latest IMO recruitment drive either.

If I hear more garbage about "engaging for change"..... Did they get a wallop from an Obama 2008 election poster?

Dr.NickRiviera

Oh wow...just completed a 152 rostered week...and when i resurface to the real world i find everything is changed. Feel like that old guy from the shawshank redemption...seriously 30% paycut?! Haddington where the hell is that? clearly not next to harley street!

!.5 to 1.25 for overtime isnt huge when ur working 39 hours a week. Do the maths for someone who works 120 minimum then ur talking significant cash. I don't want to drive into work in a lamborghini...i do want to pay my bills however and make ends meet. I havent spent a penny the last week as dont have time to spend anything. water is free and thankfully the drug reps provide us with an ample supply of tea and biscuits and good coffee.
As more and more doctors leave we are forced to work more and more hours. Thats cool with me as Im getting paid well at least im contributing 70% in earning to help the poor devils with their heroin addictions that i get to practice below knee amputations on. I dont need money anyway I dont have time to spend it. Hell I have 16 hours of my time a week. Thats plenty!
Dear HSE I vote for lets call this what it is. RAPE. At least give us the benefit and respect to thank us while doing it. I dont have a rectum anymore...Never signed on for money, my health is in tatters I have lost 2 stone in the last 6 months and I work day to day. But please have the manners to ask before you blatantly sodomize me and call it romance.

Dr Broken and forever resilient

BTW I have talked to my consultants regarding the inhuman hours im subjected to as well as HR and was told very clearly if I want to pursue a career in surgery I need to man up, stop being a wuss and get on with it...This from my consultant who I just informed I fell down the stairs with exhauston twice...The good news if I do manage to live through this I will be the man of steel!

Dr.NickRiviera

Apologies I stand corrected. A man cannot be raped as he does not possess a vagina according to section 4 of the criminal law rape amendment act 1990. Right so its just 'surprise sex' lmao

2Scoops

I remember your post asking if it was a good idea to work in Ireland. A quick read through your posts since then shows how miserable and unhappy it's made you. It's genuinely sad to read how they've ground you down, even your own team. It's time to call time on it. Quit, locum to pay the bills, and sort out your next post somewhere else.

Traumadoc

I remember pulling a 140 hr week to cover for my colleagues that were away, it did affect my mental health , and turned me off medicine completely.

Soon after I emigrated - it changed my life completely.

Are you hanging around for the excellent training? or the guarantee of the a consultants job earning less than the manager who will be directing your work?

And while your at it drop a note to the HR manager and CEO stating the hours you are rostered for.

Anthony16

152 hours in a week:eek:
And your seniors are telling u to suck it up,crazy stuff. U may want to head back to NZ,unless u are willing to keep this up for the next 10 years or so

Dr.NickRiviera

Yeah I enjoy reading through my posts over the last year myself. So positive at the start and gradually getting more and more ground into the ground. Leaving is always an option, I can go back to nz and leave this place in the mud that its in. I love the job and love the experience im getting. I do and see SO much more than I would in NZ. There is no life in the work life balance here, that much ive come to grip with. I was able to pay my bills and progress in my career of indentured servitude at a snails pace but its ok because i am going forward. Now that they are cutting my leg off I will be writing a letter toHR and CEO via my lawyer asking for all my legal contract rights. I want to remove myself off the call rota as well. My new blood pressure medications are costing me 50/month...I dont see them reaching into their pocket to pay them!
So this is what a health service meltdown feels like...I will have to send a cc to the consultant and apologize for whining about my mortal fear of hurting someone while im 2 days standing and knowing that eventually playing russian roulette like tihis with 1 player ie me will only result in one ending after pulling the trigger enough times.

pc11

Prospective GEM student here. This thread is beyond frightening. I have always been scared of the work commitment involved in medicine but what is described here is beyond belief.

Can anyone offer any solace? Are there ANY hospitals or specialities where conditions are a bit better?

There were supposed to be further changes to working hours recently - did this happen for everyone? I presume not?

Dr.NickRiviera

Still working psycho hours...just not being paid for them now Im looking at selling blood now...any advice where?

Vorsprung

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

Still working psycho hours...just not being paid for them now Im looking at selling blood now...any advice where?

There is an increasing appetite amongst those I know for telling HR to go **** themselves. I'm in the position of being in a lecturer job for 12 months which covers me for one university and a hospital that I work in one day a week (I am contracted by the university). For the other 4 days, I work in a separate hospital and I have been asked to do call from home for that hospital. It's not too onerous but if I don't get a contract for said call by 4pm Friday for this weekend's call (as I said to them 2 weeks ago), that hospital will need to make other arrangements.

RobFowl

FWIW lads you have my support, anything I can do PM me

dissed doc

Vorsprung wrote: »

There is an increasing appetite amongst those I know for telling HR to go **** themselves. I'm in the position of being in a lecturer job for 12 months which covers me for one university and a hospital that I work in one day a week (I am contracted by the university). For the other 4 days, I work in a separate hospital and I have been asked to do call from home for that hospital. It's not too onerous but if I don't get a contract for said call by 4pm Friday for this weekend's call (as I said to them 2 weeks ago), that hospital will need to make other arrangements.

Oral contracts are enforceable (based on proof) AFAIK and they only have to issue an employment contract within 2 months of starting the job.

If you don't want the job, you should just say it, IMO. If you don't agree the terms, just say it to them.

highcream

This Dr Duddy has certainly got guts

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/doctors-fear-falling-asleep-on-the-job-29436134.html

Dr.NickRiviera

I worked with him last year. Brilliant article. Ive often told him about my griefs of working a similar schedule except im on from friday 7am and leave monday 7pm...82 or so hours striaght? Been doing it for 7 months now. My body is failing but my spirit reamins strong. A heroic way to die I keep convincing myself. Eejit. I look forward to gtfo here...I am proud of those that are trying to keep the titanic afloat though. I wish them luck and success. Brave souls, god love them.

Traumadoc

Amazing how doctors in Australia can get trained without having to work crazy hours?

RobFowl

Traumadoc wrote: »

Amazing how doctors in Australia can get trained without having to work crazy hours?

And we work crazy hours here with fairly haphazard training (good in places and AWOL in others)

emo72

this is one of the most depressing threads ive ever read on boards:(

this belongs in After Hours. i hope i never get ill.

eurotrip

Does anyone know if the working hours are that insane on the non surgical specialties?

ThatDrGuy

Define insane eurotrip? It's not just the quantity of the hours, it's the enormous pressure you are constantly under due to under-staffing and doubling jobbing. Tiny mistakes in medicine ( and obviously surgery ) can have enormous consequences. That is why we have built up a culture of corner cutting, dashing around, doing other peoples work, long shifts, sleep deprivation and no training.

eurotrip

ThatDrGuy wrote: »

Define insane eurotrip? It's not just the quantity of the hours, it's the enormous pressure you are constantly under due to under-staffing and doubling jobbing. Tiny mistakes in medicine ( and obviously surgery ) can have enormous consequences. That is why we have built up a culture of corner cutting, dashing around, doing other peoples work, long shifts, sleep deprivation and no training.

I think overtime and pressure in the medical field are usual around the world but it turns insane when your work starts being dangerous for you and your patients.

What I was asking is if the workload is that hard in medical specialties like derma, cardio, onco, etc.
100+hous/week are ok if it's something exceptional but if it's the norm maybe it's worth taking a plane. Even if they paid you the whole hours money doesn't mean anything if you can't spend it with your family/friends and enjoying your life.

dissed doc

eurotrip wrote: »

I think overtime and pressure in the medical field are usual around the world but it turns insane when your work starts being dangerous for you and your patients.

What I was asking is if the workload is that hard in medical specialties like derma, cardio, onco, etc.
100+hous/week are ok if it's something exceptional but if it's the norm maybe it's worth taking a plane. Even if they paid you the whole hours money doesn't mean anything if you can't spend it with your family/friends and enjoying your life.

As long as you are an NCHD your life will revolve entirely around medicine and hospitals or clinics. That means including socially. NCHD training in Ireland is needlessly long. Most countries manage 4-5 years of residency within EWTD guidelines, and that includes surgery, psychiatry, oncology, etc., . (e.g., Netherlands).

It's a lengthy farce in Ireland, with people justifying 8-10 years+ of "training" (read: overtime payments) by assuming it makes them better. Then they go to the US and see people out of residency in 5 years as a general surgeon in early 30s and come back to Ireland after the J or H1B visa expired bitter and 10 years older than their international counterparts.

My advice: don't waste your time training in Ireland unless you have also decided 100% (I mean that, 100%) you intend not leaving Ireland. By the time you finish, you will want to leave anyway TBH. It is unlikely that you will enjoy life as an NCHD in Ireland. You will convince yourself that missing an entire weekend is normal, but it isn't, and it's damaging to your mental health. You won't see that until much later.

HeadPig

dissed doc wrote: »

and it's damaging to your mental health. You won't see that until much later.

And your physical health: http://www.wageningenur.nl/en/show/Short-and-bad-sleepers-have-increased-risk-of-cardiovascular-disease.htm